Tbol Vs Ostarine

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Wait, so I am narcissistic because I stated that I know more than you? Your lack of information proved it and the fact that this entire response is an attack because you actually have nothing else to say that justifies your stance... There was 1 thing I said that was incorrect and that was that you back peddled about going from strength training down to doing only one single. I was a man and actually apologized for the misunderstanding on that part.

    Now everything else I called you out about was you being completely wrong, and or back peddling. Re-reading the quotes above show that in unquestionable light... You still haven't offered up anything valid to argue your point other than your opinion which you state as FACT! You used caps lock on that too. By the way since when did using caps lock mean someone is superior like you stated above. Here I thought it was being used to emphasize a point I was making... I never made a two page post on how I knew more than people. I may have posted some things that PROVED I knew more than you, but that was not the intent. The sharing of information was...

    You are also correct, I am not in a position to tell you what you know. I AM in a position to tell you what you don't know because you have displayed your ignorance of the subject matter. So I have a very specific grouping of things I know that you are ignorant of regarding training and biology which you apparently are choosing to stay ignorant of.

    However everything else was an honest effort to help you and more importantly keep anyone else from being sucked into your limited view and thinking it was gospel as you seem too.

    I don't need you to compliment my knowledge, your opinion of me is not even a consideration of mine. You mis-educating others and coming up with nonsense analogies that hold no water was the reason I continued to address you. It aint for you or me but anyone reading this that doesn't know any better than you.

    As far as saying the bottom line is that you didn't say what I wanted you to say. I didn't really care what you said as long as you stopped saying things were useless that were not, and stop saying high reps aren't for growth or any of the other incorrect statements you said as fact.

    At this point it is pretty obvious that you see this as a personal attack rather than sharing information and trying to stop the spread of misinformation. That's unfortunate, but it is obvious we don't agree on many things as I have seen many of your other posts and you really push your own experiences on everyone as if they will have the same experience you did. Here we are seeing even more of this... You have experience in the 8-15 rep range and that is all that you champion because it is what you know...

    Either way, I was trying to find some common ground with you by just talking common sense in the last part of my last post. I can see that is not going to happen. So I wish you the best of luck and complete success in life and your fitness endeavors.
    I don't have time reading all that again. I already stated what I said was badly typed and I explained what I meant by it and I also stand by that. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain myself for you to get it. Yes you are being narcissistic. You're lack of listening to others and only hearing yourself, your way of telling others what they mean by a comment and the fact that you're incapable of letting people explain themself. And yes saying that you know more than someone else based on a comment over the internet. As I said, I don't care if you know more than me, I let you have that one of you want. All I said was that only doing one rep excersises is pointless, I never said you shouldn't max out in any comment.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Cgkone View Post
    Seems like you've been bumping heads with people lately.....
    Maybe its everybody else......
    Maybe its you.
    Haha that's such a childish comment. Trust me when i say this. No matter what you say you're not gonna trigger me. You remind me of the kids that are trying to tease the older guys from miles away so they can have an advantage if they have to run lol.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    I don't have time reading all that again. I already stated what I said was badly typed and I explained what I meant by it and I also stand by that. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain myself for you to get it. Yes you are being narcissistic. You're lack of listening to others and only hearing yourself, your way of telling others what they mean by a comment and the fact that you're incapable of letting people explain themself. And yes saying that you know more than someone else based on a comment over the internet. As I said, I don't care if you know more than me, I let you have that one of you want. All I said was that only doing one rep excersises is pointless, I never said you shouldn't max out in any comment.
    I listened, I looked I really hoped you had something to say but you didn't. I even asked you to explain yourself... Every response from you was either dismissive or evasive. You never tried to reiterate anything even when I asked you to point blank why my suggestions were unsound. You can explain yourself a million times but even once would have been nice. However it still won't make the fact you think you are right correct... You are the one refusing to listen to anyone... You think I am not listening because I haven't agreed with you. I am listening but I can't agree with what is not correct... you assertion that singles are pointless or useless is simply incorrect and nothing can change that but a shift in reality.

    I would have LOVED to learn something from you. LOVED IT! I enjoy when I think I have a firm grasp on something and someone comes in and blows me away. Ask anyone on the forum, when someone teaches me something even if it started out as me thinking I was dead on correct I admit where I was wrong or ignorant and thank them for what they taught me in the process... I would have LOVED for this to have gone that way! Hell it is one of the main reasons I get into debates with people on here so that we can get deep into things and learn or consider some things we wouldn't have without someone elses insight.

    Sorry it didn't workout for us that way. I am sure this won't be our last encounter either. Hopefully if we have more they can be more amicable, but that is mostly up to you and how you react to being questioned with logic and depth when people expect you to back up what you are stating as fact with proof of some sort.

    I already apologized about saying you didn't start out with the single rep workout. I have already tried to back out of this nicely after addressing your accusations and or denials one by one via quoting your responses. So hopefully you can drop this now...

    Once again, I wish you the best and that you find great success in life and your fitness endeavors.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    Haha that's such a childish comment. Trust me when i say this. No matter what you say you're not gonna trigger me. You remind me of the kids that are trying to tease the older guys from miles away so they can have an advantage if they have to run lol.
    That's probably right.
    Id run.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I listened, I looked I really hoped you had something to say but you didn't. I even asked you to explain yourself... Every response from you was either dismissive or evasive. You never tried to reiterate anything even when I asked you to point blank why my suggestions were unsound. You can explain yourself a million times but even once would have been nice. However it still won't make the fact you think you are right correct... You are the one refusing to listen to anyone... You think I am not listening because I haven't agreed with you. I am listening but I can't agree with what is not correct... you assertion that singles are pointless or useless is simply incorrect and nothing can change that but a shift in reality.

    I would have LOVED to learn something from you. LOVED IT! I enjoy when I think I have a firm grasp on something and someone comes in and blows me away. Ask anyone on the forum, when someone teaches me something even if it started out as me thinking I was dead on correct I admit where I was wrong or ignorant and thank them for what they taught me in the process... I would have LOVED for this to have gone that way! Hell it is one of the main reasons I get into debates with people on here so that we can get deep into things and learn or consider some things we wouldn't have without someone elses insight.

    Sorry it didn't workout for us that way. I am sure this won't be our last encounter either. Hopefully if we have more they can be more amicable, but that is mostly up to you and how you react to being questioned with logic and depth when people expect you to back up what you are stating as fact with proof of some sort.

    I already apologized about saying you didn't start out with the single rep workout. I have already tried to back out of this nicely after addressing your accusations and or denials one by one via quoting your responses. So hopefully you can drop this now...

    Once again, I wish you the best and that you find great success in life and your fitness endeavors.
    I have only felt that your questions was regarding something I never meant. I am honestly very confused what this is all about. I don't have any reason to argue with you since I don't have anything to say about it. You've same ne countless times to prove you wrong and my intention was never to prove you wrong. I only responded that my first comment was misunderstood and wether people wanna believe that or not it's up to them. No hard feelings from my side
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  6. so maybe I'm just gonna share something that has kept me out of arguments over the past few years in AM (trust me, I used to find myself in them a lot though). I believe forum discussing is a skill that needs to be developed and one must be extra careful since all of the most effective ways to communicate are nonexistent on forums (i.e. non-verbal communication). Heck, we developed an entire industry of communications called "emoticons" because of people constantly being misunderstood and conversations escalating to the heights in a fraction of a thread post.

    1) No matter what, only be interested in learning the truth or the best alternative to something currently unknowable
    2) Always be willing to concede
    3) State your opinions & validate them with a) several patterned facts, b) your reputation (This implies a BUNCH about how your past conduct plays into your future influence. If you want people to listen to your opinion and weigh it heavily, start building your reputation NOW)
    4) Be sensible in your interpretation of facts and be able to know the value of a set of facts, whether anecdotal or clinical
    5) Remind, remind, remind yourself that you win if you learn the truth or something closer to it
    6) Sometimes we have to settle for the most sound, logical, observable opinion just beneath the truth
    7) Don't get angry. Anger always wants to win. When does it ever lay itself down for the sake of truth?
    8) If you insist on going to the grave with an opinion or belief, make sure said position agrees with the pattern of life around you. In other words, make sure this sort of concept is true elsewhere in life.

    A simple case in point - It is my opinion that muscle growth comes in seasons for most of us - seasons that can be manipulated or lengthened for sure - but still seasons nonetheless. In most biological examples in life, this is true and in philosophical examples too, such as the King Solomon in Ecclesiastes 3 stating that "For everything there is a season". It's practically a universal truth which is a fancy way of saying that this pattern can be observed in all of creation/universe. I tend to look at & study things this way for personal reasons. I believe the world we live in is by design, so I am constantly in pursuit of the Designer and so I look for patterns of design that might tell me some greater truth about the Designer. Geez that was a mouthful!

    9) There are almost alwaysexceptions. The fringe exceptions rarely teach us anything since they don't happen enough to observe and glean anything from it. Avoid using fringe scenarios that rarely or never happen to make a point. It looks bad not only statistically but also socially. Plus, you don't want to be like the nonsensical political parties of our day by building entire philosophies on a tiny fraction of a % of scenarios.

    I feel like I should be adding one more to even it out to 10 things, lol. But I'd just be making crap up on the fly if I did. Truth is, there is probably 100 things you ought to do for effective communication with others. I saw many of these on my list being broken, mainly the ones associated with pride, which are #1, 2, 5, 7 & 8.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    I have only felt that your questions was regarding something I never meant. I am honestly very confused what this is all about. I don't have any reason to argue with you since I don't have anything to say about it. You've same ne countless times to prove you wrong and my intention was never to prove you wrong. I only responded that my first comment was misunderstood and wether people wanna believe that or not it's up to them. No hard feelings from my side
    Okay, we can chalk it all up to miscommunication... no hard feelings here. Don't let this interaction detour you from trying to help others. I see you all over the place making an effort and contributions. It is commendable and I don't want this convo to dissuade you from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    so maybe I'm just gonna share something that has kept me out of arguments over the past few years in AM (trust me, I used to find myself in them a lot though). I believe forum discussing is a skill that needs to be developed and one must be extra careful since all of the most effective ways to communicate are nonexistent on forums (i.e. non-verbal communication). Heck, we developed an entire industry of communications called "emoticons" because of people constantly being misunderstood and conversations escalating to the heights in a fraction of a thread post.

    1) No matter what, only be interested in learning the truth or the best alternative to something currently unknowable
    2) Always be willing to concede
    3) State your opinions & validate them with a) several patterned facts, b) your reputation (This implies a BUNCH about how your past conduct plays into your future influence. If you want people to listen to your opinion and weigh it heavily, start building your reputation NOW)
    4) Be sensible in your interpretation of facts and be able to know the value of a set of facts, whether anecdotal or clinical
    5) Remind, remind, remind yourself that you win if you learn the truth or something closer to it
    6) Sometimes we have to settle for the most sound, logical, observable opinion just beneath the truth
    7) Don't get angry. Anger always wants to win. When does it ever lay itself down for the sake of truth?
    8) If you insist on going to the grave with an opinion or belief, make sure said position agrees with the pattern of life around you. In other words, make sure this sort of concept is true elsewhere in life.

    A simple case in point - It is my opinion that muscle growth comes in seasons for most of us - seasons that can be manipulated or lengthened for sure - but still seasons nonetheless. In most biological examples in life, this is true and in philosophical examples too, such as the King Solomon in Ecclesiastes 3 stating that "For everything there is a season". It's practically a universal truth which is a fancy way of saying that this pattern can be observed in all of creation/universe. I tend to look at & study things this way for personal reasons. I believe the world we live in is by design, so I am constantly in pursuit of the Designer and so I look for patterns of design that might tell me some greater truth about the Designer. Geez that was a mouthful!

    9) There are almost alwaysexceptions. The fringe exceptions rarely teach us anything since they don't happen enough to observe and glean anything from it. Avoid using fringe scenarios that rarely or never happen to make a point. It looks bad not only statistically but also socially. Plus, you don't want to be like the nonsensical political parties of our day by building entire philosophies on a tiny fraction of a % of scenarios.

    I feel like I should be adding one more to even it out to 10 things, lol. But I'd just be making crap up on the fly if I did. Truth is, there is probably 100 things you ought to do for effective communication with others. I saw many of these on my list being broken, mainly the ones associated with pride, which are #1, 2, 5, 7 & 8.
    Great post @fueledpassion these are typically my markers for this type of thing also. In these situations I also tend to reread what I am saying and reword it a few times to try and make sure that I am communicating exactly what I am trying to before I respond. Admittedly this particular convo went on a bit longer than I would have normally engaged someone in this manner.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  8. Being willing to concede for the sake of redeeming the topic of conversation, even if its just to extend an Olive Branch to the opposing party, is a display of high character and a moment of high influence because those watching innately know that you care more about the truth than you do about winning. People value truth-telling and authentic sincerity over being right all the time. (Being right = winning an argument)
    @Mrkleen - I know you understand these things but in the moment of trying to make your point, it often becomes very difficult to reflect on tried-n-true principles. I mentioned all this in hopes that both parties would reflect and make nice because we need debate as often as possible. Truth only comes through dissenting voices building and defending their case. It’s why our 1st Amendment protects the right the speak freely - so we can learn the truth through dissenting positions!

    The worst thing we can do is get mad or offended when someone hotly disagrees with us b/c it discourages us and others from debating.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Being willing to concede for the sake of redeeming the topic of conversation, even if its just to extend an Olive Branch to the opposing party, is a display of high character and a moment of high influence because those watching innately know that you care more about the truth than you do about winning. People value truth-telling and authentic sincerity over being right all the time. (Being right = winning an argument)
    @Mrkleen - I know you understand these things but in the moment of trying to make your point, it often becomes very difficult to reflect on tried-n-true principles. I mentioned all this in hopes that both parties would reflect and make nice because we need debate as often as possible. Truth only comes through dissenting voices building and defending their case. It’s why our 1st Amendment protects the right the speak freely - so we can learn the truth through dissenting positions!

    The worst thing we can do is get mad or offended when someone hotly disagrees with us b/c it discourages us and others from debating.
    Yep, it is definitely easy to get swept up in the passion of things. Especially if passionate about the subject matter.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  10. To inject myself in here and make a hair pin turn regarding HCG. The consensus seems to be to pre load and then freeze your doses. However, this would require about 30+ insulin needles for the cycle @250iu EOD. My question is, is HCG stable when repeatedly thawed and frozen. lets say 3 times, so 750IU per Syringe, and it's Luer Lock, so you just swap the needle. You would freeze and thaw this 2-3 times before it is expelled. I've read HCG is stable regardless even after doing this process over the course of 90 days. So, is this a viable method, or is a single use of 250iu per syringe better...it certainly is more syringes.

  11. This thread has got to go down as the most” off topic”thread in history, I do like it though
    kept you waiting huh?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    To inject myself in here and make a hair pin turn regarding HCG. The consensus seems to be to pre load and then freeze your doses. However, this would require about 30+ insulin needles for the cycle @250iu EOD. My question is, is HCG stable when repeatedly thawed and frozen. lets say 3 times, so 750IU per Syringe, and it's Luer Lock, so you just swap the needle. You would freeze and thaw this 2-3 times before it is expelled. I've read HCG is stable regardless even after doing this process over the course of 90 days. So, is this a viable method, or is a single use of 250iu per syringe better...it certainly is more syringes.
    HCG is a protein based hormone, in my experience freezing, thawing and refreezing is an issue for most any protein. I don't have the specifics for HCG, but even with a steak, you don't thaw it and refreeze it, that changes the quality of the meat.

    Here is what they say the problem is with a steak and I would think the same would hold true of any protein.

    "The reason a double freeze takes such a toll on meat is because freezing water inside the meat’s protein cell physically changes the shape of it. So the more you do that, the more noticeable the change."

    That would imply that a double freezing of a delicate protein like HCG could cause some issues. I know that with other peptides which is also protein based there is a 1 freeze rule once reconstituted.

    That being said if you read from a reliable and scientific source that you can do that then don't rely on my opinion or thoughts if you have something based on scientific evidence. I would just say that the above is something I would consider heavily if there was not some scientific evidence otherwise.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  13. So I'm sure everyone remembers what it was like being in the position I am. I started this thread with a simple SARM/Oral question, and that's turned into quite the adventure and thread. Below is disclosed the cycle as well as questions and supplements. I encourage everybody who has helped me on this thread to briefly familiarize yourself with the products named to paint a better picture.

    As it stands, the cycle begins the 1st or second week of January. If anybody has anything to add in, please feel free. This was quite a journey in research itself. Iv'e been on this forum for awhile and started on that clown thread ran by ISARMS earlier this year...

    Weeks 1-12
    -500mg Test C Every week
    -.25mg Arimidex E3d (Adjust as needed)

    Weeks 1-6
    -Tbol 50mg ED

    6 months straight
    - 12.5mg MK-677 ED

    Weeks 1-6 (Optional) Comments are welcome. Purpose would be to preserve Tendon Integrity and durability with the rapid increase in strength.
    -Ostarine 3-20mg

    Weeks 2-14
    -HCG 250iu EOD

    Weeks 1-16
    -Cycle Support, Olympus Labs K1ngs Guard ED (half serving) with an an additional 250mg of TUDCA.

    Weeks 14-20
    -PCT Still Deciding, though everything is accounted for. Lower dose at a longer period to reduce sides. I may use one and not the other at all. Comments welcome, however I have seen bloods from a dose of 12.5mg EOD of Clomid boosting test up to the 900 range. So I am taking a more is not better approach to PCT.
    -10mg Nolva ED and/or 12.5MG Clomid ED or EOD

    Pointers on food, and supplements are welcome. I'm not opposed to any BS mass gainer though Redcon1 MRE is really the only non BS one I will take. I know this is made or broken in the kitchen and have my macros figured out. My Multi-vitamin is "Green Vibrance" it's a nasty green powder with literally everything in it. I encourage you to look up this product. Any last minute advice on optimal protein intake would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to miss a beat with this.

    Now as for pre-workouts. I will cease all pre workout, I was using mesomorph but have a large amount of tubs of "Off the Chain" Aminos to take it's place. The logic here is the pumps from the cycle compounds will be enough, and anything from a pre workout supplement that would give pump could be too overwhelming, not to mention the cardiovascular complications that could arise. Is this a correct outlook?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    So I'm sure everyone remembers what it was like being in the position I am. I started this thread with a simple SARM/Oral question, and that's turned into quite the adventure and thread. Below is disclosed the cycle as well as questions and supplements. I encourage everybody who has helped me on this thread to briefly familiarize yourself with the products named to paint a better picture.

    As it stands, the cycle begins the 1st or second week of January. If anybody has anything to add in, please feel free. This was quite a journey in research itself. Iv'e been on this forum for awhile and started on that clown thread ran by ISARMS earlier this year...

    Weeks 1-12
    -500mg Test C Every week
    -.25mg Arimidex E3d (Adjust as needed)

    Weeks 1-6
    -Tbol 50mg ED

    6 months straight
    - 12.5mg MK-677 ED

    Weeks 1-6 (Optional) Comments are welcome. Purpose would be to preserve Tendon Integrity and durability with the rapid increase in strength.
    -Ostarine 3-20mg

    Weeks 2-14
    -HCG 250iu EOD

    Weeks 1-16
    -Cycle Support, Olympus Labs K1ngs Guard ED (half serving) with an an additional 250mg of TUDCA.

    Weeks 14-20
    -PCT Still Deciding, though everything is accounted for. Lower dose at a longer period to reduce sides. I may use one and not the other at all. Comments welcome, however I have seen bloods from a dose of 12.5mg EOD of Clomid boosting test up to the 900 range. So I am taking a more is not better approach to PCT.
    -10mg Nolva ED and/or 12.5MG Clomid ED or EOD

    Pointers on food, and supplements are welcome. I'm not opposed to any BS mass gainer though Redcon1 MRE is really the only non BS one I will take. I know this is made or broken in the kitchen and have my macros figured out. My Multi-vitamin is "Green Vibrance" it's a nasty green powder with literally everything in it. I encourage you to look up this product. Any last minute advice on optimal protein intake would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to miss a beat with this.

    Now as for pre-workouts. I will cease all pre workout, I was using mesomorph but have a large amount of tubs of "Off the Chain" Aminos to take it's place. The logic here is the pumps from the cycle compounds will be enough, and anything from a pre workout supplement that would give pump could be too overwhelming, not to mention the cardiovascular complications that could arise. Is this a correct outlook?
    I would up your cycle supports during the TBol period. Run the K1ngs guard at full dose with extra TUDCA with it too. Other than that it looks pretty good. Not sure you need the Osta there competing with real gear for the AR... but as you have it listed as optional, personally I would save it for another cycle.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  15. I am aware that HCG can cause gyno. Is my Arimidex too conservative, or a dose non considerate of this factor? Perhaps .5mg and then .25mg E3D?
    ??

  16. Confession time guys. My stats are 5'8 and 160lb, maybe 15% bf. Over this last month, I have been training with the fitness manager at my gym and my lifts are going up at ridiculous rates. I Don't even have to pay him. Almost 10lb a week for pretty much everything but curling. Before my hernia 3 years ago I was 168 and 13% bf. This whole new training method has me breaking PR and I'm not talking 1 rep max. I was shoulder pressing 35lb last week in sets of 12 for dumbell, this week it was 45. It's insane. It feels like gear. I'm only taking mk677 at the moment. I should note that I know part of that BF is major bloat.

    Basically I want to disclose I am not at my genetic potential, but after 3 years of chronic injury, Im closer than ever to being to the body I was so close to years ago. The attention I'm receiving is also very noticeable and I feel amazing. Iv'e really only since June been able to do real workouts and get some real soreness and results, but this November and December have been crazy for gains. The training is awesome. Never the same. I


    I basically just don't want to snap a bicep, shoulder, or pectoral tendon on cycle. and I'm already getting some soreness with the progress iv'e been getting this past month. It makes me think I should postpone the cycle and maybe run ostarine one more time. If my lifts go up any higher than the rate they are going now, it could be dangerous, though I am pleased with my results.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Confession time guys. My stats are 5'8 and 160lb, maybe 15% bf. Over this last month, I have been training with the fitness manager at my gym and my lifts are going up at ridiculous rates. I Don't even have to pay him. Almost 10lb a week for pretty much everything but curling. Before my hernia 3 years ago I was 168 and 13% bf. This whole new training method has me breaking PR and I'm not talking 1 rep max. I was shoulder pressing 35lb last week in sets of 12 for dumbell, this week it was 45. It's insane. It feels like gear. I'm only taking mk677 at the moment. I should note that I know part of that BF is major bloat.

    Basically I want to disclose I am not at my genetic potential, but after 3 years of chronic injury, Im closer than ever to being to the body I was so close to years ago. The attention I'm receiving is also very noticeable and I feel amazing. Iv'e really only since June been able to do real workouts and get some real soreness and results, but this November and December have been crazy for gains. The training is awesome. Never the same. I


    I basically just don't want to snap a bicep, shoulder, or pectoral tendon on cycle. and I'm already getting some soreness with the progress iv'e been getting this past month. It makes me think I should postpone the cycle and maybe run ostarine one more time. If my lifts go up any higher than the rate they are going now, it could be dangerous, though I am pleased with my results.
    This is where knowing yourself and knowing the reasons for what you are doing comes into play.

    To me there are really only a few pertinent scenarios here:
    1) Health / Long Term Focus - Stay the course and enjoy the gains as they are coming. If making great gains off cycle then stick with what you are doing first. When that plateaus then revisit the cycle. Allows you to push your natural abilities before going to gear. This is the path of the righteous!!!!

    2) Short Cut to your immediate goal - You KNOW that you want to grow more than you can possibly grow naturally in the amount of time you have allotted yourself for the cycle. You also know that you are doing it as a shortcut to get there faster and are okay with that. Regardless of what the righteous people say.... If you are in this category, congratulations!!!! You are in the 90% majority of all PED users!!!!

    The morality that some people put on the decision to use PED's is just ludicrous. Here in Houston we have toll roads, I am sure all metropolis areas have them. I can not imagine anyone passing moral judgement over the people who pay to use the toll way because it gets them to their destination faster. Well gear has it's own added price, and guess what, it does exactly the same thing. It gets you to your destination faster...

    Also for those in the know, they realize that the whole reach your genetic potential first stuff actually limits your growth because many things happen when on gear that set you up for more growth later in life. Higher rates of differentiation, activation and what not from satellite cells give a leg up to someone who started gear earlier.

    None of this is talking you into anything but moreso saying consider all sides and make the decision based on what your goals are, and whether or not you see PED use as a moral issue or not.

    As far as snapping a tendon or any of that, I don't think you really understand just how strong your tendons and ligaments are. I do not think you are in any danger of tearing things from sheer weight. If your form is good then you have a bit before you need to start worrying about snapping something. People who tend to rip things like that tend to already be pretty strong before cycle, and then getting on gear and get much stronger, and even then it is normally a muscle tear when having to do with sheer weight. Now overuse injuries that is a different thing but can happen whether using heavy or light loads.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  18. It is important to note that while AAS can take you beyond your natural potential, most users, and by most I mean at least 90-95%, never exceed their natural genetic potential even while using gear. It takes a world class effort to do that but when done, the results will make noise and speak for itself.

    But saying steroids bring us beyond our “genetic potential” is nonsensical to say the least. If you got there then obviously your genetics had such a potential. In fact, I’d say that gear actually enables us to reach our full genetic potential, if we’re honest about it.
  19. Tbol Vs Ostarine


    Preach on FP

    Good to see you still around
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  20. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    It is important to note that while AAS can take you beyond your natural potential, most users, and by most I mean at least 90-95%, never exceed their natural genetic potential even while using gear. It takes a world class effort to do that but when done, the results will make noise and speak for itself.

    But saying steroids bring us beyond our “genetic potential” is nonsensical to say the least. If you got there then obviously your genetics had such a potential. In fact, I’d say that gear actually enables us to reach our full genetic potential, if we’re honest about it.
    Interesting take on the genetic potential. To me your genetic potential includes your hormonal make up. Once you go beyond your hormonal limitation into the supraphysiological levels of exogenous androgens then you are going above your genetic potential for hormones to get there. Which for me leads to why someone would say genetic potentioal, IE natural limitations, as opposed to simply saying potential.

    Kind of like saying Ronnie Coleman had the genetic potential to be a 230lb freak on stage, but had the potential to be a 300lb monster with hormonal assistance. Just as an example of my thought process as to why people use that statement. Basically, once you are using exogenous hormones you are no longer limited to your genetic potential because you have added to it with more hormones than you have the potential to create due to genetic limitations.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  21. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Interesting take on the genetic potential. To me your genetic potential includes your hormonal make up. Once you go beyond your hormonal limitation into the supraphysiological levels of exogenous androgens then you are going above your genetic potential for hormones to get there. Which for me leads to why someone would say genetic potentioal, IE natural limitations, as opposed to simply saying potential.

    Kind of like saying Ronnie Coleman had the genetic potential to be a 230lb freak on stage, but had the potential to be a 300lb monster with hormonal assistance. Just as an example of my thought process as to why people use that statement. Basically, once you are using exogenous hormones you are no longer limited to your genetic potential because you have added to it with more hormones than you have the potential to create due to genetic limitations.
    You have it right. I think the difference is in that saying “genetic potential” to by default mean as a result of natural hormone production belittles the discipline and up plays the steroids as a result of what bodybuilders accomplish. It says, “he only looks that way because of the steroids”. I know you didn’t say that but I’ve caught on to this “everyone deserves a trophy” society and that downplay of bustin tail and the up-play of PEDs is a form of excuse and resentment to those who get it done. It’s the fitness industries version of “virtue signaling” and I’m so sick of it. You can’t just take the drugs and look like Coleman or even half of Coleman for that matter. You need a grit and determination to do that AND al the PEDs as well.

    That being said, I look at “genetic potential” as the gene signaling that our DNA is programmed with. If increasing a single class of hormones in the body results in absurd growth, increased IQ and a host of other benefits, it would seem that the only thing limiting the genetic potential is the hormone output itself & thus would seem that all other genes in the body are very capable of being what these monsters of men turn out to be. It would appear to me that man is capable of being much bigger & stronger than we typically are.

    You get my drift though.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    You have it right. I think the difference is in that saying “genetic potential” to by default mean as a result of natural hormone production belittles the discipline and up plays the steroids as a result of what bodybuilders accomplish. It says, “he only looks that way because of the steroids”. I know you didn’t say that but I’ve caught on to this “everyone deserves a trophy” society and that downplay of bustin tail and the up-play of PEDs is a form of excuse and resentment to those who get it done. It’s the fitness industries version of “virtue signaling” and I’m so sick of it. You can’t just take the drugs and look like Coleman or even half of Coleman for that matter. You need a grit and determination to do that AND al the PEDs as well.

    That being said, I look at “genetic potential” as the gene signaling that our DNA is programmed with. If increasing a single class of hormones in the body results in absurd growth, increased IQ and a host of other benefits, it would seem that the only thing limiting the genetic potential is the hormone output itself & thus would seem that all other genes in the body are very capable of being what these monsters of men turn out to be. It would appear to me that man is capable of being much bigger & stronger than we typically are.

    You get my drift though.
    Absolutely I do!

    However I also see things from the other side too. I just mentioned in another thread that the reality is doing everything 80-90% correctly on a cycle is still going to net you 150-300% of the gains you would have natty in the same time frame doing everything right. That aspect can not be denied and the average person can most definitely build a far above average body through a reasonable workout and diet while on a cycle. Without any major extremes.

    Gear is often more of a recreational use, than it is used in the way that you use them, or that I would used them if prepping for a contest. Basically a vanity drug in a lot of ways. At least when used recreationally. IE any other use than for competition or medical purposes. I know you are extremely dedicated, and disciplined at all times. You also compete so it is serious business for you. Me, I won't lie to anyone and say that I go 100% on diet or training when on cycle just because I am on cycle. In prep that is different. On cycle I definitely give an added push, but I also enjoy the conveniences that the gear brings with it to get more out of less sacrifice. I don't apologize for this either.

    To me that would be like apologizing to someone sitting in traffic passing judgment on me for zipping by them in the express lane and saying I am making a bad decision because there is a cost associated to being in the express lane. I have the choice to use the express lane, so I do... Nothing moral or idealistic about it.

    I know this goes in the face of a lot of people in your position because there are tons of guys like me who make excellent progress while not being extremely disciplined. However most people on gear that have the mentality to get on gear are pretty intense individuals, so hard work is never really the issue. Diet is. It is hard for the more disciplined guys to argue that gear is not responsible, when we can make such great gains not doing everything right or trying to squeeze the most out of a cycle. People see this and then see you compete and think it is just more of the same.

    However to achieve that level takes an extreme level of work and discipline whether gear is involved or not. I can get down to 10% without counting a macro if I want to on cycle without too much fanfare. That's a six pack for me... I have done it more than once. However getting down to 3-8% requires another level of dedication and discipline. When I competed it was a miserable experience while in the middle of prep and then I stuck to everything I had too. You don't get to 4% not doing so. So I know the difference between what a "Relaxed Cycle" brings to the table and what an extremely disciplined one does and the difference is pretty obvious. The only way I will ever restrict myself in that way again is for another prep.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Preach on FP

    Good to see you still around
    Thanks for the WOE

    Words of encouragement - Yes, I just made up an acronym

  24. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Absolutely I do!

    However I also see things from the other side too. I just mentioned in another thread that the reality is doing everything 80-90% correctly on a cycle is still going to net you 150-300% of the gains you would have natty in the same time frame doing everything right. That aspect can not be denied and the average person can most definitely build a far above average body through a reasonable workout and diet while on a cycle. Without any major extremes.

    Gear is often more of a recreational use, than it is used in the way that you use them, or that I would used them if prepping for a contest. Basically a vanity drug in a lot of ways. At least when used recreationally. IE any other use than for competition or medical purposes. I know you are extremely dedicated, and disciplined at all times. You also compete so it is serious business for you. Me, I won't lie to anyone and say that I go 100% on diet or training when on cycle just because I am on cycle. In prep that is different. On cycle I definitely give an added push, but I also enjoy the conveniences that the gear brings with it to get more out of less sacrifice. I don't apologize for this either.

    To me that would be like apologizing to someone sitting in traffic passing judgment on me for zipping by them in the express lane and saying I am making a bad decision because there is a cost associated to being in the express lane. I have the choice to use the express lane, so I do... Nothing moral or idealistic about it.

    I know this goes in the face of a lot of people in your position because there are tons of guys like me who make excellent progress while not being extremely disciplined. However most people on gear that have the mentality to get on gear are pretty intense individuals, so hard work is never really the issue. Diet is. It is hard for the more disciplined guys to argue that gear is not responsible, when we can make such great gains not doing everything right or trying to squeeze the most out of a cycle. People see this and then see you compete and think it is just more of the same.

    However to achieve that level takes an extreme level of work and discipline whether gear is involved or not. I can get down to 10% without counting a macro if I want to on cycle without too much fanfare. That's a six pack for me... I have done it more than once. However getting down to 3-8% requires another level of dedication and discipline. When I competed it was a miserable experience while in the middle of prep and then I stuck to everything I had too. You don't get to 4% not doing so. So I know the difference between what a "Relaxed Cycle" brings to the table and what an extremely disciplined one does and the difference is pretty obvious. The only way I will ever restrict myself in that way again is for another prep.
    For the record, I don’t frown on people using gear recreationally or for “vain” reasons. So I use it to compete, in which I’m competing for the best overall muscularity and proportion on the stage, which IIRC is pretty freakin’ surface level stuff. But the grit and mental battle required to forge such a body is not at all in vain and the mental fortitude that I am building in the process will serve a very specific purpose in my latter years. I’ll spare you those details.

    Anyways, the part that is reprehensible to me is that society’s reasons to reject PED’s as immoral are at best half truths, which is a clever and less condemning way to say that society build’s it opinion and position about PED’s on a bunch of lies. It’s the beautiful, well-endowed, tall, strong, smart, powerful & wealthy, along with their mindless lemmings, that oppose PED’s use from the general public. Let’s not forget the incredibly insecure people that also happen to have trypanophobia - they get mad cause they ain’t willing to go to those lengths and for the rest that oppose it, they have poinephobia (fear of punishment) as if having a bottle of Clomid shipped to your house = feds are going to kick in your door and drag you outside, cuff you and ship you off to a max security pen for the remainder of your life.

    Ugh, for those that read this post and secretly know you fall into one of those categories - just know that at the end of the day, you either:

    1) oppose using it because you don’t want others to compete with you (in terms of performance, intelligence, beauty) or

    2) if you aren’t willing to overcome whichever phobia you have about PED’s, you also were never willing to do whatever it takes to be competitve at any serious level to begin with!

  25. I've heard people gaining almost 10lbs on ostarine alone
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