aid to africa
- 06-17-2005, 05:37 AM
aid to africa
I might just be 17 and not know much about the world, but check this out...
Africa has the lowest per capita income, and the highest infant mortality rate. But, they also have the largest population growth of any continent.
In a typical American "world police" kinda move, were sending aid to them (while we cant educate and feed all of the people here, explain that one).
There population increase is 2.6% each year (as of 2000). I ask them this... Why in the hell are you having a baby if you know you cant feed it?
They need to help themselves before we help them. You can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink, and you can feed africians but if they keep having babies faster than rats, it wont do any good.
- 06-17-2005, 11:22 AM
- 06-17-2005, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by davisville64
Count your blessings
06-17-2005, 12:45 PM
06-17-2005, 01:32 PM
I understand where both of you are coming from, but can you please explain the 2.6% population increase, and why we shold feed them before the starving childeren in OUR country.
06-17-2005, 01:42 PM
True, if you define "we" as caucasians of European (mostly English and Dutch) descent and "****ing up" as running roughshod over the indigenous civilizations in that continent. But isn't that what "we" do now in say, countries like Iraq? 2000 years is a bit of an exaggeration.IF you knew anything about africa you would know how we have been ****ing the whole contient up for the last 2000 years or more.
Now that's not true. You'll find a lot of single Africans. Why do you think there is an AIDS epidemic there that far exceeds the extent of devastation in any other area? Let's not forget that missionaries are the ones who preach abstinence and deny condoms and birth control to these people. They are culturally, obviously, having lots and lots of sex with many partners. Telling them God says don't do it isn't working, it's just making things worse.This is just the stepping stone of the problems they have today, such as famine, AIDS, and disease. You won't find a single Afican that has better living conditions compared to a person here in the states
Furthermore, at no other time in history have there been such ideas as providing social wefare for other countries simply because they are not as "well off" as us. I feel that one should be a good citizen and attempt to help other persons and countries in need, but not at the expense of your own country and livelihood. Is there any return from investing heavily in the people of Africa? Will they be grateful and repay us if their economy suddenly becomes stable and tenable? My position is to do what you can to help the poor, but clean up your own backyard first before heading to the neighbor's.
When places like Flint, Michigan have a 50% unemployment rate and Kansas City has a huge homeless population, perhaps we should focus the brunt of our reconstruction efforts on the homeland first. We as Americans cannot always be the world's street sweeper and global good guys. If there have been times where we should have actually stepped in, such as in the case of the genocide in Rwanda, what has the U.S. done? We sat that one out. Pick your battles.
06-17-2005, 01:45 PM
(clap) (clap)Originally Posted by Brooklyn
06-17-2005, 01:49 PM
I dislike the world in general... Thinking about it pisses me off, so I'm gonna pull a U.S. in the Rwanda situation and sit this one out...Originally Posted by Brooklyn
06-17-2005, 06:34 PM
I agree with you. We can't help other countries while we have problems of our own. It's not our obligation to be charitable but being charitable is good if you can afford it and I don't see how we can afford that with all the $$$ we're spending right now and the issues we're faced with.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
06-17-2005, 07:08 PM
"Now that's not true. You'll find a lot of single Africans. Why do you think there is an AIDS epidemic there that far exceeds the extent of devastation in any other area? Let's not forget that missionaries are the ones who preach abstinence and deny condoms and birth control to these people. They are culturally, obviously, having lots and lots of sex with many partners. Telling them God says don't do it isn't working, it's just making things worse. "
Taking into context of how many missionaries compared to government or social workers trying to educate the African population is pretty lop-sided. There isn't much of a relationship between the government and mission workers either. To blame missionaries for making things worse in Africa is a pretty lame statement. Last i was told, when my grandmother first started working with the Suri, Chai, Tirma, and Baale people in Ethiopia, over 6,000 people have been saved. And only one acount of an HIV patient has been recorded. This is deep in uncivilized territory, my uncle actually had to make a road to get there. Now in places such as Adis Abeba which is a large city of a couple million, things there are no so good.
And lets not forget that missionaries give up their comfortable life-style in developed countries such as america to go help another in need. The only funding they recieve is from the church and those who donate. I agree the gov. should help our country first, but when comparing those unemployed in Flint, Michigan and the homeless population in KC is nothing like what people in Africa are experiencing. Besides, isn't Olathe apart of KC? It is like the 5th richest county in the nation. I have many many stories i could share to those interested in the living conditions in Afrcia. But to finalize, I don't know much about politics and why the u.s. gov. does what it does, but to say missionaries are making things worse over there is pretty low. My aunt is a nurse and she is over there too. She spends her day giving vaccines and medical assistance since hospitals are pretty much obsolete. Why not help them out?
06-17-2005, 08:52 PM
African aid is only one part of the equation.
If you want the aid to have the most impact, DO NOT give cash. Cash only lets the ultra-corrupt governments of Africa benefit.
Aid and political reform must go hand in hand. Otherwise you would have fifty guys like Mugabe starving his people just so he can give them food to have them "vote" for him in the "elections".
Africa has tons of natural resources and potential, but the aristocracies, marxism, and nepotism run DEEP.
06-17-2005, 08:54 PM
So perhaps the missionaries should be "saving" people there before heading out into the underbrush?Now in places such as Adis Abeba which is a large city of a couple million, things there are no so good.
That's great. I applaud those who can readily abandon a self-serving lifestyle in the interest of helping others. However, I can't say that everything missionaries do is without self-serving motivation. Attempting to convert those of limited cultural exposure to another religion while being the hand that feeds could be interpreted by some as somewhat self-serving. There is always a motivation. If it's not financial, then there are other motives, which is not to say those motives aren't benign in intent.And lets not forget that missionaries give up their comfortable life-style in developed countries such as america to go help another in need.
Olathe is a KC suburb in a county in Kansas (not Missouri where most of Kansas City is located) where many of the upper class (We often call them "Republicans") choose to reside. What you have to understand about Kansas City and many areas in this country is that there is a great disparity between the wealthy and the poor, more so now than at almost any time in the past. The middle class is eroding. Missouri is known for having areas of extreme poverty. Just because Long Island, NY is filled with doctors, lawyers and actors, does that make most residents of the South Bronx any less poverty-stricken?Besides, isn't Olathe apart of KC? It is like the 5th richest county in the nation.
I can't speak for the missionaries in Africa, I'm not there. But I've known people who have been and one thing I do have experience with is the Christian right. If they can't so much as agree on sexual education programs which discuss using condoms and birth control as methods of prevention in THIS country, why should I have any inclination to believe that in areas where they are less encumbered by legal separations of church and state that they would be any less dangerous?to say missionaries are making things worse over there is pretty low.
06-18-2005, 09:57 AM
I personally don't like giving handouts to anybody, no matter what the situation. In my opinion if we're going to be spending our money on other countries, we should be building schools for future generations. Education is always the key IMO. If you just send over food, they eat it, ****, and they're hungry again next week.
06-18-2005, 03:45 PM
I agree, though i imagine and hope they are receiving some form of help. The gov. is quite corrupted and there isn't much respect for law. For example, couple of young college girls from america traveled to ethiopa the other year to help out in Adis. During their cab ride on a busy highway they had to pull over and pick up 2 bodies off the side of the road. The girls helped the cab driver put the 2 bodies in the trunk and dropped them off at the police station. it's pretty messed up.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
I can't speak for all missionaries but for my family it's more of a self-sacrafice then self-serving. Their motivation is to preach the gospel to those who have never heard the name Jesus Christ. That is another reason they travel deep in the bush. They spend 8 years there then come back to the states for 2. At one point my uncle was kidnapped by several rebels with automatic weapons. He was held captive for almost a month until U.S. specialist found him. It was on CNN probably 8 years ago.That's great. I applaud those who can readily abandon a self-serving lifestyle in the interest of helping others. However, I can't say that everything missionaries do is without self-serving motivation. Attempting to convert those of limited cultural exposure to another religion while being the hand that feeds could be interpreted by some as somewhat self-serving. There is always a motivation. If it's not financial, then there are other motives, which is not to say those motives aren't benign in intent.
I understand what you are saying. I lived in KC last year, but i don't remember seeing an over-abundance of homeless prowling the streets. Maybe i wasn't in the right part of town.Olathe is a KC suburb in a county in Kansas (not Missouri where most of Kansas City is located) where many of the upper class (We often call them "Republicans") choose to reside. What you have to understand about Kansas City and many areas in this country is that there is a great disparity between the wealthy and the poor, more so now than at almost any time in the past. The middle class is eroding. Missouri is known for having areas of extreme poverty. Just because Long Island, NY is filled with doctors, lawyers and actors, does that make most residents of the South Bronx any less poverty-stricken?
I agree, there isn't a set agreement on any specific method for educating those in Africa nor in the states. I really don't know the gov. role in aiding Africa besides sending them money and food. But there are several student work programs and voluteer social workers who travel to Africa only to help educate these people. Topics on better farming techiques, environmental tactics, sexual education, and many more programs are being taught. There is no such thing as a perfect country, the U.S. will always have it's problems just like any other country. Ignoring Africa's problems because the U.S. doesn't have %100 employment rate for example doesn't make sense to me. Africa for the time being is only getting worse. It is an over-populated, uneducated continent that is run by corruption, drug lords, rebels, disease, famine..etc.. Something needs to be done. Will africa ever be a stable country with a promising economy? I don't know. I'm just saying, in some form or another, these people need help.I can't speak for the missionaries in Africa, I'm not there. But I've known people who have been and one thing I do have experience with is the Christian right. If they can't so much as agree on sexual education programs which discuss using condoms and birth control as methods of prevention in THIS country, why should I have any inclination to believe that in areas where they are less encumbered by legal separations of church and state that they would be any less dangerous?
06-19-2005, 05:02 PM
He was asking a question, so you call him a ****en moron? Then you tell him to go read a book and shut the **** up? If I were a mod, I would permanently ban you. There is no need to attack someone that doesnt share your extreme one-sided view. Good day.Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
06-19-2005, 08:26 PM
I completely agree, maybe not about the permanate ban part, but your reaction was stupid and even more childish than the "stupid" 17 year old you were responding to.Originally Posted by Ghosting
06-19-2005, 08:33 PM
06-19-2005, 08:36 PM
06-19-2005, 08:37 PM
If you guys want to know what I think (you probably don't, but you're going to hear anyways ), I think that we're attacking this whole thing incorrectly.
I went to a Catholic HS where everyone was required to do a certain number community service hours a year. At the beginning of the year, the director of the CS program would give a little speech regarding the intentions behind the program, etc. One thing he always referred to was the "two feet of community service. The first foot (as in body part, not distance) was direct service. This includes feeding the hungry, providing clothes for the homeless etc. The second foot was indirect service. This is stuff like petitioning government bodies.
The whole point the of two feet is to provide an analogy. Community service should be like walking. One foot should go first, then the other, then the other, etc. If one foot (say the direct service) is the only foot taking steps, it's OK for a little while because for example you sent a large shipment of food to textile workers in China. You are feeding the hungry and now they have food. The problem is that you have only treated the symptom, not the cause. The workers are still in a position where they can't afford to buy food. This is where the other "step" comes in. Now you write a petition to Nike or Walmart demanding they pay their workers better wages, so you don't have to send food over in the first place. I think you guys get the concept.
Anyways, the first world countries are basically only taking steps with the direct service foot. We've f*cked up Africa sooo much in the past centuries that it's unbelievable, but now we just try and send aid packages and medical supplies. We don't do anything about the corrupt governments that still are in power, or take action against the multinational corporations that oppress the people, etc. I don't think the situation in Africa is going to get ANY better until we start walking with both feet.
06-19-2005, 11:17 PM
I would extend the analogy to the United States.I don't think the situation in Africa is going to get ANY better until we start walking with both feet.
06-20-2005, 04:21 PM
You could extend the analogy to anywhere in the world.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
07-20-2005, 12:43 AM
First of all, i have no issues with people disagreeing with others. it makes for good conversation and it is nice to learn different things from other people. BUT i do have a problem with people who are blantantly rude and disrespectful like you. He was simply stating his opinion in a nice non derogatory manner and yet you attack him.Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
i do agree with him though. i believe that all people are not made equal. to put it NICELY some countries get to where they are for a reason. we should do like nature does, you take care of your own, if you cant fend for yourself then...
OH....PLEASE enlighten me on just a few of your MANY reasons or ways that africa has helped the united states aside from slavery (which is completely EVIL).
07-20-2005, 12:59 AM
UT, You really need to back up, take a breath, and Don't type.. I will not let you stay around here if you abuse another member like this again. I missed this the first time through but I won't be missing it againOriginally Posted by UNDERTAKER
07-20-2005, 10:33 AM
"Aid" of almost any type other than moral usually ends up backfiring. Give countries cash and it goes straight to the corrupt government officials. Give them food and it gets stolen and sold on the black market by troops, and what little free food remains serves the devastate local farmers because the free food undercuts their crops on the market, and they end up in refugee camps eating imported food that could have provided locally. Try and change the country politically and you end up with a different dictatorship, but no better than the one that came before.
That some countries have been devastated by past exploitation is certainly true. It's also true they've often devastated themselves with internal wars, border disputes, religious persecution, cultural cleansing, ethnic purification, etc. As another poster said, some people are poor because of bad luck, some are poor because they make ****ty decisions and never learn from their mistakes. The same goes for countries. Also, to deny that the massively entrenched socialist ideology in Africa has at least something to do with the current situation over there is to deny reality. Their economies will never develop if we keep sending "aid" to help them, which undercuts local goods and services. Their economies will never develop if their governments don't stop insisting on central planning. The famines won't end so long as tribal warfare and corrupt armies and governments conspire to keep food away from some, nor will they end so long as 'free' food from America and other countries decimates the local food markets putting more people out of work and making them dependent on foreign aid.
This is not to mention the somewhat questionable motives of foreign aid agencies, the main goal of many being simply to secure more government contracts to provide "aid." Aid which will never solve the problems it's supposed to, because to do so would mean an end to the government contract. There have been several reports issued showing the perverse incentive structure and questionable motives of those involved with large scale foreign aid operations.
As for the Christian aspect to this, it's laughable to think that an African man who is running around screwing thirty women an hour doesn't wear a condom because the church either didn't tell him about it or told him it's wrong to do so. He's not wearing a condom because he's irresponsible, period. And maybe, just maybe that irresponsibility, that wanton selfishness in the face of obvious harm to others, has something to do with the current situation in Africa and other places in the world facing similar problems.
07-20-2005, 10:51 AM
07-20-2005, 01:41 PM
07-20-2005, 01:54 PM
07-20-2005, 01:58 PM
Bump CDBOriginally Posted by CDB
07-20-2005, 02:10 PM
the money never makes it to the folks. not even in this country. yet we are told to keep giving more.
the government is the only entity on the face of the earth that gets larger and more power as its failures increase.
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07-20-2005, 02:56 PM
money down a rathole, giving handouts to crooked third world governments has never been proven to have a benefit to anyone except the government crooks that get ahold of it. If we are going to get into wasteful handouts how about at home? we've got jobless/homless right here, soaring education costs, solve our own problems first!.Originally Posted by davisville64
07-20-2005, 03:00 PM
07-20-2005, 07:30 PM
There is another dimension to humanitarian aid thats mostly unknown or ignored - government interference and collusion to favour one side in a conflict.Originally Posted by CDB
All of the problems you cited with aid could be the (un)intended consequences - famine, pillaging local economy and supporting a self serving politically connected humanitarian community along with their indigenous elite partners in crime. Humanitarian agencies are also useful as a level of denial and cover for covert operations.
For example, the secret Khmer Rouge camps were kept humming with international aid, feeding and housing militants along the Thai/Cam border. The disgraceful complicity of the US govt which kept the Honduran camps full of refugees who were virtual kidnappees. And the more recent Somalia debacle which started with the Italians until the marines arrived to secure oil contracts.
07-20-2005, 09:35 PM
Some governments including ours knowingly aid questionable foreign organizations, but the consequences flow from the economics and human nature, not the intentions. Even were every bit of free food and money to go to the intended population, the effects would be generally the same. You'd see the same collapse of local food markets, the same black markets in free food, and the same jockeying of corrupt people to get their hands on cash handouts, the same discrimination based on religion, racer, tribal affiliation, etc. This is for three reasons: one, there are definite economic consequences to the actions of "aid" organizations; two, these places tend to have way more than their share of backward cultures and values, and they desperately need to get smacked into the 21st century; and three, no matter how you group people, by race, religion, skin color or whatever, you're going to find a load of crooked ****heads willing to screw everyone else for their own benefit.Originally Posted by MarcusG
07-21-2005, 05:15 PM
Not always. What you are referring to is the unintended consequences of humanitarian aid when aid agencies have to compromise on ethics to get things rolling or when aid is manipulated by the very people it is trying to help.Originally Posted by CDB
What I'm talking about is aid as a bludgeon or a screen when heating oil is denied to poor Serbs in the winter to cause riots to undermine Milosevic, a feeding plan for mujahideen/KR or to influence the public opinion in favour of the contras when they see staged TV footage.
07-22-2005, 11:08 AM
My point is actually that aid will fail no matter what because of the economic and social consequences of any such type of intervention. These aid organizations are inherently political, so whether they are used intentionally or uninintentionally to do harm is beside the point, the end result will always be harm to those who the aid is supposed to be helping. Unless the underlying social and political dynamics of the situations that caused such dire conditions in these societies are changed, 'help' given to them will always backfire and cause more harm than good. It's like owning an old VW Beetle. You can keep pouring money into it to keep it running in so-so condition, but in the end if you want a truly reliable ride to work you need to change the car.Originally Posted by MarcusG
07-23-2005, 11:26 AM
This is very true. The most basic law of nature is SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.Originally Posted by Mrs. Gimpy
07-23-2005, 11:35 AM
I was watching something on CNN about this and a little kid (11 years old maybe) asked why were giving aid to countries when most of it is just taken by "bad guys"Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
Bush said if we didnt give aid because of that, it would be like giving up. Mr. Bush needs to know how to pick his battles a little better. The definition of insanity is "doing the same action several times, getting the same result, but expecting something different"- or somethign close to that.
I got a feeling that this might turn into another Somalia, we should just mind our own business.
07-25-2005, 11:13 AM
please please, someone lock this thread.
07-25-2005, 08:36 PM
I will give you the same advice that Bobo gives me about certain threads... just don't look at them..
07-25-2005, 09:38 PM
lolOriginally Posted by Matthew D
by the way...not to taunt you or anything....so dont try to eat me....UNDERTAKER are u african american? i was simply curious
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