CK/Anabolic Diet mega thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by austink3417 View Post
    good deal. i like the idea of sitting around eating. what about eating majority of calories earlier in day than later? also, is there anything besides fructose that should be avoided during carb up?
    May I ask why you would consider eating calories earlier rather than later in the day? If you believe that eating calories earlier in the day would be better to try and "burn them off" before you go to bed in a somewhat fasted state then I will tell you that this is not what we are trying to accomplish during the carb up. It is not a time to drop fat, that's what happens during the week. The weekend should be thought of as your time to recomp. You will regain that muscle fullness that you have lost after a week of hard dieting. On the contrary to what you have proposed, IMHO the perfect CKD would have someone waking up at 2 hour intervals during the night and eating to keep steady levels of insulin throughout the carb up.
    And while on the topic I really don't believe that there is any merit in timing your calories or carbs in such a way on carbohydrate based diets. It is more about calories in = calories out, IMHO. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything about supposed "carb timing" that everyone so readily accepts as gospel. And in practice I have gotten my leanest while eating carbs and calories proportionally throughout the day (before/after cardio, RIGHT BEFORE BED). I challenge someone to provide some studies to the contrary and if it is sound research then I may change my mind on the topic. But for now, I have eaten carbs before and after cardio and have woken up to eat a meal with about 75-100g of carbs at 2am for the past couple months and I am getting leaner by the week (please note that I am at the moment on a carbohydrate based diet).
    This isn't to say that there is no merit to a CKD diet which is certainly based on the timing of carbohydrates (quite the opposite, there are 1000 of studies to back up its effectiveness). The type of carb and caloric timing I am referring to in the previous paragraph has to do with diets that utilize carbohydrates as the primary fuel source.

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    Let me also reiterate that I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON DIET/NUTRITION. It is best to be inquisitive and question everything you read (especially on message boards where I see people regularly give advice when they don't know what the hell they're even talking about) to find out for yourself what is the best way to approach diet and nutrition. This is just one mans take on this stuff who has some experience with dieting and has read a great deal from experts in regards to CKD diets. I do not have any degrees in this or any related areas. My degree will be in a field of study quite different from this. CKD's are just something I like to study in my leisure time, as I presume is the case with most of you. My goal is just to tease out the misinformation that runs rampid on forums and message boards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    6-8 normally. Since I started this superdrol cycle its up to like 10-12 a refeed.
    How is the cycle going, bro?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    May I ask why you would consider eating calories earlier rather than later in the day? If you believe that eating calories earlier in the day would be better to try and "burn them off" before you go to bed in a somewhat fasted state then I will tell you that this is not what we are trying to accomplish during the carb up. It is not a time to drop fat, that's what happens during the week. The weekend should be thought of as your time to recomp. You will regain that muscle fullness that you have lost after a week of hard dieting. On the contrary to what you have proposed, IMHO the perfect CKD would have someone waking up at 2 hour intervals during the night and eating to keep steady levels of insulin throughout the carb up.
    And while on the topic I really don't believe that there is any merit in timing your calories or carbs in such a way on carbohydrate based diets. It is more about calories in = calories out, IMHO. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything about supposed "carb timing" that everyone so readily accepts as gospel. And in practice I have gotten my leanest while eating carbs and calories proportionally throughout the day (before/after cardio, RIGHT BEFORE BED). I challenge someone to provide some studies to the contrary and if it is sound research then I may change my mind on the topic. But for now, I have eaten carbs before and after cardio and have woken up to eat a meal with about 75-100g of carbs at 2am for the past couple months and I am getting leaner by the week (please note that I am at the moment on a carbohydrate based diet).
    This isn't to say that there is no merit to a CKD diet which is certainly based on the timing of carbohydrates (quite the opposite, there are 1000 of studies to back up its effectiveness). The type of carb and caloric timing I am referring to in the previous paragraph has to do with diets that utilize carbohydrates as the primary fuel source.
    i was talking about during the week. reason being i get home from the gym, have a shake, then around 8 have dinner which is usually half pound ribeye (very high in fat) with spinach. i was thinking of putting this ribeye earlier in the day and have something lighter after my shake. Total calories in would stay the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink3417 View Post
    i was talking about during the week. reason being i get home from the gym, have a shake, then around 8 have dinner which is usually half pound ribeye (very high in fat) with spinach. i was thinking of putting this ribeye earlier in the day and have something lighter after my shake. Total calories in would stay the same.
    I apologize, I misunderstood. Yeah that sounds like a good plan. Usually if it comes down to needing extra calories and I only have a shake before bed I try and make it with some slower digesting protein just because I tend to get super hungry during the night. But I still don't think caloric timing matters much with the weekday (except to space it out between 5-6 meals), it's more up to personal preference. The only time I would recommend certain types of calories is right after your workout keeping the fat low and the protein high, then having a meal about an hour later. Others (Di Pasquale) also recommend that you workout in the morning fasted on this diet not so much because there is any fat loss benefit but more because digesting fat requires energy. So, if you don't eat a large meal before the workout you may have more energy for your workout since your body will be won't be digesting all the fat. I however, have never had a problem with this unless I eat like 8 eggs before I workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    How is the cycle going, bro?
    Great! I'm on day 12 and up about 8 pounds, which is misleading because I'm also doing the trimax (tricana), so hopefully I'm cutting some fat as well. I'm going to stop at 3 weeks.

    I'm dosing 20mg SD ed and 2 trimax pills. Strength is up nicely. Very little lethargy to speak of. Some dryness in my right knee, which gets painful when I squat.

    As far as SD sucking without carbs....its a total myth. I actually feel a little healthier on it without the carbs. Don't have the massive bloating and such, though there is some bloating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Great! I'm on day 12 and up about 8 pounds, which is misleading because I'm also doing the trimax (tricana), so hopefully I'm cutting some fat as well. I'm going to stop at 3 weeks.

    I'm dosing 20mg SD ed and 2 trimax pills. Strength is up nicely. Very little lethargy to speak of. Some dryness in my right knee, which gets painful when I squat.

    As far as SD sucking without carbs....its a total myth. I actually feel a little healthier on it without the carbs. Don't have the massive bloating and such, though there is some bloating.
    'oly shyt! you're poppin' da super pillz! hahah. i loved when i ran that stuff. lost my gains, though, due to incompetence AND starting too soon in my lifting career. but that's ok. i got some new tricks comin' for soooooooooooomeday.

    good luck with the cycle, m'man. and keep eatin' like a horse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manimalia View Post
    'oly shyt! you're poppin' da super pillz! hahah. i loved when i ran that stuff. lost my gains, though, due to incompetence AND starting too soon in my lifting career. but that's ok. i got some new tricks comin' for soooooooooooomeday.

    good luck with the cycle, m'man. and keep eatin' like a horse.
    Thanks! I'll give you guys an update at the end of the cycle and the end of PCT. I'm interested in seeing how well the AD aids in recovery during PCT.
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    People........start posting your refeed protocols. I'm interested to see what you all are doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    People........start posting your refeed protocols. I'm interested to see what you all are doing.
    i second that. having a little trouble with mine on the weekends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    People........start posting your refeed protocols. I'm interested to see what you all are doing.
    This is what I did last week:

    Depletion Workout

    PWO- 2 scoops whey, 4 scoops waxy maize (50 protein, 160 carbs)

    Day 1- Alot of gatorade and sugary candy. Had some frosting on grahmn cracker sticks, rice crispie treats. A couple brownies. Lots of water. Froot Loops, Corn Pops, Apple Jacks. Fish Oil.

    Day 2- Waffles, Pasta, more cereal, frozen yogurt, chicken and rice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    This is what I did last week:

    Depletion Workout

    PWO- 2 scoops whey, 4 scoops waxy maize (50 protein, 160 carbs)

    Day 1- Alot of gatorade and sugary candy. Had some frosting on grahmn cracker sticks, rice crispie treats. A couple brownies. Lots of water. Froot Loops, Corn Pops, Apple Jacks. Fish Oil.

    Day 2- Waffles, Pasta, more cereal, frozen yogurt, chicken and rice.

    See, now I eat very similar to you, and I didn't gain anything from this past week's refeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    See, now I eat very similar to you, and I didn't gain anything from this past week's refeed.
    You didn't gain anything after the refeed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    i can't remember why fructose carbs are bad for carb-ups. Anyone remember?
    Eh...if I'm not mistaken, fructose likes to hang out in your liver for a longer period of time. Although, I think for someone such as yourself with a rigorous routine, it's not really gonna matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    You didn't gain anything after the refeed?

    Well, as I said earlier, the circumstances for measuring my weight weren't perfect, but the scale said I didn't gain anything, I was actually down about a half pound.

    My refeed ended at about 11pm Sunday night. I didn't work out monday, but I had practice on monday night. So essentially just constant motion/running. Tuesday afternoon at about 2 I make it to the gym and weighed myself. Half pound down from Friday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Well, as I said earlier, the circumstances for measuring my weight weren't perfect, but the scale said I didn't gain anything, I was actually down about a half pound.

    My refeed ended at about 11pm Sunday night. I didn't work out monday, but I had practice on monday night. So essentially just constant motion/running. Tuesday afternoon at about 2 I make it to the gym and weighed myself. Half pound down from Friday.
    Ok.....that sounds about right....I'm usually back to my normal weight by about Tues night/Wed morning. I thought you meant on Monday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Ok.....that sounds about right....I'm usually back to my normal weight by about Tues night/Wed morning. I thought you meant on Monday.
    I guess we'll find out next Monday how I'm reacting. I've begun working out in the early mornings so that will make it easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    People........start posting your refeed protocols. I'm interested to see what you all are doing.
    Prior to my depletion workout i'll start my carb load. About two hours previous to it. I've been testing around with using different amounts of complex carbs and seeing how I respond to it during the workout and for carb loading purposes.

    Carb load starts right after I finish my workout, one whey shake. Then I come on heavy with bread, candy, white rice, crackers, sugar cookies, apple compote kind of thing which is just basically a few small/medium apples cut up in a small pot with water and a ton of sugar and I simmer it down until its thick. It won't even freeze solid in the freezer over night. Sorbet sometimes. I don't drink any gatorade, it has a really salty taste to me especially since I tend to use a lot of salt and hot sauce on foods. Sometimes I go to the low fat section of the supermarket, see what I want. Spaghetti, macaroni (With cheese sometimes yes). I make a kind of cheesless pizza I guess, just bread with garlic spread over it with tomato sauce in the oven for a few minutes.

    Second day, alot of oatmeal, whole wheat bread, some fruit here and there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    i can't remember why fructose carbs are bad for carb-ups. Anyone remember?
    Aside from the liver uptaking fructose.

    "Fructose is predominantly metabolized in the liver, but unlike glucose it does not require insulin to be used by the body."

    http://www.ific.org/publications/qa/fructoseqa.cfm

    When you read books like Lyle McDonalds, the insulin raises are stressed as a positive effect.

    I'm a big CKD buff myself, I love the subject. Try to read up on anything I can on the subject.

    How many of you guys do HIIT during CKD?

    How many of you guys vary calorie intake over the low carb days? For example

    Low carb days:
    Monday- 1500 calories
    Tuesday - 2000 calories
    Wednesday - 1500 calories
    Thursday - 2000 calories
    Friday - 1500 calories
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    I would also avoid sugar alcohol's on this diet. They use a different energy substrate and may take away from your bodies ability to burn fat as its primary fuel source.

    The same holds true for those of you who consume MCT's (Medium Chain Triglycerides) such as coconut oil. They have a different structure than other fats that we preferentially consume on this diet and should be avoided for their ability to use a different energy substrate.

    Really good points.

    The other thing I avoid is excessive alcohol drinking.
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    fructose is to be avoided but what about high fructose corn-syrup? i'm finding this in a ton of foods. is it different than fructose and how?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    Low carb days:
    Monday- 1500 calories
    Tuesday - 2000 calories
    Wednesday - 1500 calories
    Thursday - 2000 calories
    Friday - 1500 calories
    I think I do, but not necessarily intentionally. Some days of the week I feel alot more hungry than others.

    Have you had success doing this?
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    Started planning today for an anabolic diet mega-bulk! muahahahahaha
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    i thought someone was joking but....i really did get a buzz from carbing up. this is the first time its happened. ive been on the diet before but i had a buzz while i was eating haha. sweet. yaay for carb ups
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink3417 View Post
    fructose i knew about but am i supposed to stay away from glucose and sucrose? are they derivatives of fructose? is there anything else to stay away from? also, i read somewhere that you aren't supposed to have that much fat later in the day (after your workout if you workout at night). anyone hear anything about this?
    guess i found the answer to my own question. thought i would post it to help everyone out:

    Lactose
    Disaccharide containing glucose and galactose
    Naturally occurring in milk

    Maltose
    Disaccharide containing two glucoses
    Crystallized from starch

    Dextrose
    Another name for glucose
    Crystallized from sugar cane, sugar beets and starches

    Corn Syrup
    Primarily single glucose units
    Produced from corn starch

    High Fructose Corn Syrup
    Primarily a mixture of glucose and fructose single units Produced from corn starch

    so, just check out your sugary cereals b/c mine seem to have high fructose corn syrup and syrup for waffles too....which would be not so good b/c of the fructose. someone correct me if i'm wrong. i love my cereal
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    thomasrivera's link was interesting. suggest you guys on this diet should read it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I think I do, but not necessarily intentionally. Some days of the week I feel alot more hungry than others.

    Have you had success doing this?
    I have actually. I've seen better results from doing this than doing a straight low calorie styled diet. At the base of things it has to do with the hormonal shift from dieting.

    The body is just better programed to gain weight than it is to lose weight, survival instinct. The periods of higher carb would reverse the hormonal shifts that would normally increase appetite but lower metabolism. I'll look for information sources to post though.
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    Aside from the liver uptaking fructose.

    "Fructose is predominantly metabolized in the liver, but unlike glucose it does not require insulin to be used by the body."
    Precisely why Lyle McDonald and Dan Duchaine recommend a fructose containing meal before the depletion workout. It will not raise blood glucose and may provide a little more energy for the workout.

    How many of you guys do HIIT during CKD?
    I've done HIIT during CKD. I really didn't like it to tell you the truth. I would get lactic acid burns in my legs during the latter part of the week from just doing simple things like walking up stairs and it really started to hinder my leg workouts too. On this diet I just like to lower overall caloric intake and skip on the cardio altogether. For me, the depletion workout gives enough of a cardiovascular boost in and of itself.

    How many of you guys vary calorie intake over the low carb days? For example

    Low carb days:
    Monday- 1500 calories
    Tuesday - 2000 calories
    Wednesday - 1500 calories
    Thursday - 2000 calories
    Friday - 1500 calories
    This is a good way to go. Better than keeping calories stagnant throughout the week. IMO, even better would be to vary your calories according to your caloric output on a daily basis. So, you would be eating much less on a day of rest during the week than you would while say working out or if you work at a job which demands physical activity then that would be tallied in as well. Dan Duchaine has a system for tallying the intensity of daily activities/types of exercise/cardio in order to figure out daily caloric output and find out where your daily calories need to be from there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Started planning today for an anabolic diet mega-bulk! muahahahahaha
    Niiiiiice. I went on a 6 month anabolic diet bulk last year and it was fun. Definately watch out for the fat gain as it can creep up on you. Unlike a carb based diet where you eat some extra carbs here or there it will only count against you at 4 calories per carb whereas on this diet each gram of fat is closer to 9 calories (I round down from 10 cals because the body expends energy just to metabolize fat...on that note I also count protein at 5 calories per gram due to gluconeogenesis) and it is pretty easy to eat extra fat on this diet. I can recall the many times when I would buy the biggest steak I could find (or rib roast) and just scarf the whole fukker down in one sitting (as one of my 6-7 meals of the day).
    Also, I wouldn't be concerned about not gaining any weight over the carb up. I barely fluctuated over the carb up once I became well adjusted. This is actually ideally where you want to be, though a fluctuation of up to 4-5 pounds is still considered normal. However, if you're trying to bulk right now...then eat up Rugger! :donut:
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink3417 View Post
    fructose is to be avoided but what about high fructose corn-syrup? i'm finding this in a ton of foods. is it different than fructose and how?
    the other reason I would avoid high amounts of fructose during the carb load is because of how it's metabolized. Fructokinase to breakdown fructose is located in the liver, not the muscles, over turned fructose has a very, very low rate of transmission into glucose when overspilled from the liver and will most likely be turned into fat.
    Last edited by ThomasRivera; 09-18-2008 at 08:26 PM. Reason: left a few things out
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    the other reason I would avoid fructose is because of how it's metabolized. Fructokinase to breakdown fructose is located in the liver, not the muscles, over turned fructose has a very, very low rate of transmission into glucose when overspilled from the liver and will most likely be turned into fat.
    yeah, i understand the whole process but am just trying to figure out what foods contain fructose. sucrose and high fructose corn syrup are two that i am finding in a lot of food. cinnamon toast crunch contains f-ing straight up fructose. i was killing that sh!t last weekend.
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    STICKY THIS THREAD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esox Express View Post
    STICKY THIS THREAD

    Agreed!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Niiiiiice. I went on a 6 month anabolic diet bulk last year and it was fun. Definately watch out for the fat gain as it can creep up on you. Unlike a carb based diet where you eat some extra carbs here or there it will only count against you at 4 calories per carb whereas on this diet each gram of fat is closer to 9 calories (I round down from 10 cals because the body expends energy just to metabolize fat...on that note I also count protein at 5 calories per gram due to gluconeogenesis) and it is pretty easy to eat extra fat on this diet. I can recall the many times when I would buy the biggest steak I could find (or rib roast) and just scarf the whole fukker down in one sitting (as one of my 6-7 meals of the day).
    Also, I wouldn't be concerned about not gaining any weight over the carb up. I barely fluctuated over the carb up once I became well adjusted. This is actually ideally where you want to be, though a fluctuation of up to 4-5 pounds is still considered normal. However, if you're trying to bulk right now...then eat up Rugger! :donut:

    Yeah, I'm excited. Especially since I'll probably be throwing in a epithio or superdrol cycle in there somewhere.

    I am still hesitant about the amount of calories, though. I can't seem to decide where I should start off at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink3417 View Post
    yeah, i understand the whole process but am just trying to figure out what foods contain fructose. sucrose and high fructose corn syrup are two that i am finding in a lot of food. cinnamon toast crunch contains f-ing straight up fructose. i was killing that sh!t last weekend.

    http://www.nutritiondata.com

    This site usually has the breakdown of glucose, sucrose and fructose in foods.
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    any of you guys gain fat over the refeed? haha. i think i gained alittle but it will come off this week im sure. str is still off the chain. str training plus this diet of awesome. up 7lbs on inclines PLUS 2 reps and plus 10lbs on declines same reps. freakin sweet
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    236 lbs. yesterday before depletion workout. i'll weigh myself monday before workout.
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    RobInKuwait's Avatar
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    Anyone else SICK of sugary foods
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    Rugger's Avatar
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    yep
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    austink3417's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Anyone else SICK of sugary foods
    yeah, i'm sick of gatorade, cereal, and all the other shvt. makes me feel like crap. i'm on week three, i better start losing some weight/fat soon. this is however, the easiest diet i've ever tried.
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