CK/Anabolic Diet mega thread

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  1. I was doing about 8 exercises circuit style and about 4-5 circuits. Resting about 1min between exercises and 3-5 min between circuits. Usually until I felt like I was going to puke. I like your better a lot better.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    I was doing about 8 exercises circuit style and about 4-5 circuits. Resting about 1min between exercises and 3-5 min between circuits. Usually until I felt like I was going to puke. I like your better a lot better.
    Ya those circuit style workouts can be so brutal. Depletion workouts are the bane of my existence. Fuk...basically any workout that makes me want to throw up is not something I look forward too, lol. But the GH and other effects are well worth it.
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  3. Question:

    I've Been doing Anabolic Diet for about 6 weeks now. I play beach volleyball on Wednesdays and today I had no energy. Normally I'm pretty energetic, but I could tell I was carb depleted today. Next Wednesday I want to be able to give 100% as its the playoffs.

    How much of carb up should I look to do Tues night/Wed, so I can give my peak performance Wednesday evening?

    I typically carb up on Friday evenings through Saturday night. I also play on Saturdays and Sundays so I don't want to skip that carb up. Thanks in advance for responses.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Question:

    I've Been doing Anabolic Diet for about 6 weeks now. I play beach volleyball on Wednesdays and today I had no energy. Normally I'm pretty energetic, but I could tell I was carb depleted today. Next Wednesday I want to be able to give 100% as its the playoffs.

    How much of carb up should I look to do Tues night/Wed, so I can give my peak performance Wednesday evening?

    I typically carb up on Friday evenings through Saturday night. I also play on Saturdays and Sundays so I don't want to skip that carb up. Thanks in advance for responses.
    Here is what I would do. And please bare with me as I have not had my coffee yet this morning . What days during the week do you have completely off? I'm talking about from the gym or any other form of exercise? Ideally, you will want to carb up during days that you are not getting any exercise so that your body can store the glycogen you are giving it rather than quickly burning it off. Also, this is my opinion but I tend have a preference for playing sports during a high fat day as I feel I am more alert and have more energy. Unfortunately this may not be a possibility for you. It looks like it may be a possibility for you to actually carb up like this: Thursday evening through Friday night (carb gorge fest, eat as much as you want) and then on Tuesday evening a carb spike of 200-400g of carbs split between 1 or 2 meals. The only reason why I would switch your Friday and Saturday carb up to Thursday and Friday is so that you can achieve some form of glycogen supercompensation rather than burning most of the glycogen off right away while you play sports.
    If this is something you are not interested in doing and you still want to carb up on Friday night through Saturday then I would suggest that you make the carb spike during the week on Wednesday morning. This should keep your energy levels nice and high for your game on Wednesday night.

  5. I have another question for you, RobInKuwait - how many carbs are you consuming over the course of Friday evening to Saturday night? I have used a carb spike during the week when playing sports and it definately helped me out but I also found that keeping my carb up to the weekend say 48-50 hours straight and eating tons of carbs really prepared me fully for the next week, no matter what my physical demands were.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Here is what I would do. And please bare with me as I have not had my coffee yet this morning . What days during the week do you have completely off? I'm talking about from the gym or any other form of exercise? Ideally, you will want to carb up during days that you are not getting any exercise so that your body can store the glycogen you are giving it rather than quickly burning it off. Also, this is my opinion but I tend have a preference for playing sports during a high fat day as I feel I am more alert and have more energy. Unfortunately this may not be a possibility for you. It looks like it may be a possibility for you to actually carb up like this: Thursday evening through Friday night (carb gorge fest, eat as much as you want) and then on Tuesday evening a carb spike of 200-400g of carbs split between 1 or 2 meals. The only reason why I would switch your Friday and Saturday carb up to Thursday and Friday is so that you can achieve some form of glycogen supercompensation rather than burning most of the glycogen off right away while you play sports.
    If this is something you are not interested in doing and you still want to carb up on Friday night through Saturday then I would suggest that you make the carb spike during the week on Wednesday morning. This should keep your energy levels nice and high for your game on Wednesday night.
    My schedule is lift on Mon, Tues, Thurs and/or Fri. Then I play volleyball on Wed nights, and Sat and Sun during the day. I occasionally walk or do light elliptical for cardio.

    I normally do feel better without carbs, but for some reason I was sucking wind last night and playing bad. I am also on Leviathan, so I was thinking the Yohimbe may also be doing that.

    I think I'm going to give the Wed morning carb up a chance. I don't want to mess with the Fri/Sat night carb up as that is my time for going out to restaurants with the wife and family and downing a couple of beers with friends.

    Thanks for the input, and I'll let you know how the carb up affects my performance.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    I have another question for you, RobInKuwait - how many carbs are you consuming over the course of Friday evening to Saturday night? I have used a carb spike during the week when playing sports and it definately helped me out but I also found that keeping my carb up to the weekend say 48-50 hours straight and eating tons of carbs really prepared me fully for the next week, no matter what my physical demands were.
    I haven't been tracking numbers, but I typically on Friday have Waxy Maize after my workout and then go out for dinner and have large pasta dinner. Later that night I'll have a few beers and maybe some chips or popcorn or leftovers from dinner.

    On Saturday, I'll have oatmeal or cereal, a sandwich, a wrap, and go out for dinner on Saturday night followed by some beers and snacks. I also try to eat whatever I've been craving all week.

    I can definitely feel and see a difference after the carb up and usually gain about 5-8 pounds in the 1.5 days, but its always gone by Tuesday. My carb up is probably not optimal, but to me the carb up is my time to maintain sanity and being able to go out to eat and drink with friends and family.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I haven't been tracking numbers, but I typically on Friday have Waxy Maize after my workout and then go out for dinner and have large pasta dinner. Later that night I'll have a few beers and maybe some chips or popcorn or leftovers from dinner.

    On Saturday, I'll have oatmeal or cereal, a sandwich, a wrap, and go out for dinner on Saturday night followed by some beers and snacks. I also try to eat whatever I've been craving all week.

    I can definitely feel and see a difference after the carb up and usually gain about 5-8 pounds in the 1.5 days, but its always gone by Tuesday. My carb up is probably not optimal, but to me the carb up is my time to maintain sanity and being able to go out to eat and drink with friends and family.
    I hear ya bro! I have used the same setup while bulking on this diet in the past. It is very nice to be able to unwind on the weekend and have a few beers and fulfill those food cravings! And my girlfriend totally got used to us going out to restaurants on the weekends and actually having a social life, lol. Definately keep us updated on how you like the mid week carb spike.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    I hear ya bro! I have used the same setup while bulking on this diet in the past. It is very nice to be able to unwind on the weekend and have a few beers and fulfill those food cravings! And my girlfriend totally got used to us going out to restaurants on the weekends and actually having a social life, lol. Definately keep us updated on how you like the mid week carb spike.
    I will. I've actually had success losing BF with this plan even though my weight isn't really changing. In early July I used an electronic BF% tester and was 24.3% at around 265-270 pounds. Last week I was 22.4% on the same test and was the same weight.

  10. I often receive PM's related to cyclic diets. Many of the questions I receive are the same and it seems that if all the information was compiled into a single thread it would be easier for everyone. I'm glad Rugger has taken the initiative to start this thread so I think that this is a good place for all of this information to go. Anyways, earlier today I have been communicating with Cessna via PM and I have his permission to post the message in this thread for everyone else who may have the same questions.

    hey botch i came to you because you have knowledge on this subject i hope you dont mind helping me a little bit on some doubts that i have and if you can give some advices that will be great.

    1) first i been reading about the carb load day and im unsure how many grams per LBM do i have to take assuming im doing 24 hours only.
    Well to be honest it would be impossible for you to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation over a 24 hour period. I would still advise you to eat 2g of CHO per KG of LBM for the first 4 meals immediately after your depletion workout. From the second morning of your carb load forward I would just focus on eating as many CHO's as you can and keeping your macros on point.

    2) do i really have to take a piece of fruit 2 hours before my depletion workout?
    No, it has been my experience that this is not something you need to do. It may help you though on days when you are feeling extra sluggish. I would eat a banana before the depletion workout sometimes, but it really never made a difference for me either way. I have heard experts also comment that the high fructose meal before the depletion workout is unneccesary.

    3) lets say after my depletion workout i have a scoop of whey protein with a gatorade is this sufficient or should i take something else or more liquid?
    Not even. For the first 4 meals immediately following the depletion workout you should be consuming 2g of CHO per KG of LBM. Lets do the math here...for you that would mean you have 57.9 KG of LBM which would equate to 115.8g CHO every two hours. This would be closer to 2 gatorades every two hours, which is totally fine to drink by the way. The other point I want to make is that one scoop of whey protein will not suffice. Your macronutrient breakdown on the carb up should be 60/30/10 which would mean you need to be taking in ~58g of protein every two hours. Since the fat content should be 10% you will need ~7g of fat with each one of these meals as well.

    4) asumming my depletion w/o ends at 7:00 pm after my post workout meal, should my dinner consist of simple carbs and how many grams from protein? if you can give me an example it will be better just to have an idea
    I would attempt to get those first 4 meals I listed above in on the same night that you had your workout. This means your last meal may be as late as 1:00am. Since you are only doing a 24 hour carb load, I would opt for starchy carbs during the next "phase" (basically once you wake up the next morning until the carb load is over). And since you are only loading for 24 hours I would eat as many carbs as I could. Rice, pasta, potatoes are all good choices. Just try and keep your macros to the 60/30/10 that was proposed. You may also find in the future that you want to extend your carb load to a full 48 hours.

    5) do i have to get up at the middle of the night to eat to get a better glycogen compensation? (i dont mind to do it)
    Not necessarily, but I like the enthusiasm! Usually if I wake up to pee during the night I'll get in a quick meal during the carb load. This does help to keep insulin levels stable. I do have to say though, if you go to bed before 1:00am I would really try and get in those four meals on the night of the depletion workout even if you have to wake up for the last one.

    6) my breakfast should still be simple carbs?

    ( do my meal always have to contain liquid CHO?)
    (when do i move from eating HIGH-GLYCEMIC CHO to LOW GLYCEMIC CHO ASSUMING IM DOING 24 HOURS?)
    As posted above, I would move to starchy carbs during the second morning of your carb load and finish it off with starchy carbs from there. If you're not eating all starchy carbs though during the second day it wouldn't be a huge deal.

    7) do i have to eat every 2 or 3 hours?
    Yes. Every 2 hours would be ideal.

    8) what is the best period to have the "cheat" meal
    I don't have cheat meals on this diet (aside from a few beers during the carb load, which won't set you back). Cheat meals will set you back a bit if you're idea of a cheat meal is high in fat and high in carbs. I tend to go into the carb up thinking that it is a huge cheat though. So I am satisfied with what I eat during the load just because I am happy to be eating carbs. If your idea of a cheat is sugary stuff then you can definately have some candy during the first day of the carb load. Also, usually by the time the high carb weekend is over I am looking forward to going back to high fat. Cheat meals for me tend to be high in fat so if I want a cheat meal then I will have something during the week that is low in carbs but still satisfies my cravings. I am also a dessert chef for an italian restaurant, and have experimented at home with different dessert recipes using sucralose instead of sugar...and let me tell you the baked goods turn out just as tasty as the real deal! It is up to you whether or not you want to have a cheat meal though. Through trial and error you will see what you can and can't "pull off" on this diet.

    9) do i take my chromium, magnesium and ALA during the carb load 24 hour period?
    Chromium? That one is new to me on a low carb diet. But I am surprised more people don't ask about the vitamin deficencies that can occur on this diet. As far as magnesium is concerned, you should be taking it every day along with zinc and potassium. A zinc, potassium, and magnesium supplement before bed would be a good addition (though I am not such a fan of the ZMK product that is out due to other added ingredients). Just plain ZMA and a potassium supplement (preferably a chelated version) would be good. I would also opt for 400-800IU's of vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) every day on this diet, about 500mg of vitamin C in three daily doses, and B vitamins regularly throughout the day. What I have listed here are ESSENTIAL while you're on this diet as your body is not getting the nutrients that it needs otherwise.
    As far as ALA is concerned I would not mess with anything that manipulates insulin during the carb load. Your insulin sensitivity is already much altered from a normal person by the nature of the diet you are using and you don't need these things during the carb load. I will say that ALA or other variations should be used on monday morning and monday evening as well as tuesday morning to help lower blood sugar after the carb load.

    10) my workout on monday and tuesday should be higher reps that i usually been doing?
    Without you telling me how many reps you have been doing I cannot say. But I can say that your reps should be in the 6-8 range (about 80% of your 1RM) for the Monday and Tuesday workouts.

    11) what could happen if i go more than 12 days (induction phase) and i wait lets say 24 days to do carb load do i run the risk to slow down my metabolism i ask you this because i took the ketostrips test and it came negative but assuming i been eating less that 20 carbs a day i should be burning fat for energy or not?
    If you go more than 12 days your workouts may suffer and you do run the risk of slowing down your metabolism. There are nasty side effects associated with straight ketogenic diets and quite frankly I don't recommend them for anyone except in cases of VERY obese people. Ketosis is a strange thing. When you are very deep in ketosis your body is actually less efficient at burning fat. Like I said before I would not worry about the ketostrips. DiPasquale (author of the Anabolic Diet) hates talk about ketosis. If you were to do a true AD then you would not want to be in ketosis at any point in time. On the AD your blood glucose should hover around 95 throughout the entire week. Just know this, you can still burn fat efficiently without being in ketosis.

    THIS ARE MY CURRENT STATS:

    140lbs
    bf 9%
    LBM 127.4
    FAT WEIGHT 12.6

    im sorry for all this bunch of question but ill really appreciate if you can give me like a little guidance thanks in adnvance botch
    Anytime .

    BTW is it cool with you if I post this up in the CK/Anabolic diet thread? I think that there are a lot of GOOD questions here that others may also have. Please let me know.

    Thanks,
    Botch.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    This is the response from the previous PM:

    hey botch ur awesome thanks for take the time to answers all this doubts.

    i dont have a problem you can post those questions on the CK/Anabolic diet thread so more people can learn.

    so im gonna try 24 hour period for this time just to see whats the difference between 24 and 48 hours

    so as protein is concerned it dosent matter where it comes from right? IMO (whey, fish, chicken,tunna, cottage cheese, fat free milk because are lean sources am i right?
    Correct. You can eat whatever you would like for protein. Err...there are some I wouldn't recommend like drinking soy protein with every meal but hey, that's just me.

    ill be using this protocol for the carbs:


    Substage A: Meals 1-4
    2g liquid CHO/kg LBM (simple sugars or glucose polymers) PER MEAL

    Substage B: Meals 5-8
    1.5g liquid CHO + solid High-glycemic CHO (i.e.- corn flakes)/kg LBM PER MEAL

    Substage C: Meals 9-12
    0.5g solid starches + some liquid CHOs PER MEAL

    so you think this can be a good example of a breakfast lets say milk and a cereal (any kind)+ eggs whittes OR pancakes+ sugar free syrup and fat free ice cream+ eggs whites (im asking you this because i have some tasty cravings of those foods lol)
    This looks very familiar . It is the same carb up protocol that I use. Your breakfast looks very tasty and is making my mouth water. You will be just fine eating those foods during the carb up, most important thing is keeping the macro ratios in check.

    as for fat ill be eating wallnuts
    Good choice. This is also what I do.

    also is there any problem if at any meal i go over my amount of carbs?
    No, since you are only doing a 24 hour carb load you should eat as much as you can, really. Even if you were carbing up for 48 hours it wouldn't be such a big deal if you go over a bit here or there.

    and since the gatorade comes with fructose and that goes directly to the liver its there any other liquid choice you can recommend?
    The fructose in gatorade is a VERY small amount. I wouldn't be concerned, but I'm glad that you've done your homework . It is mostly made up of simple sugars. But another good liquid CHO that you could drink during this time is waxy maise starch or maltodextrin (glucose polymers). A big tub of this can be bought at Nutraplanet for very cheap.

    thanks botch
    Anytime my friend.
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  11. Thank you for that lengthy post Botch. That answered a lot of questions that I'm sure many people here, including myself, were thinking.

    My question is about alcohol. If a had a few beers one night around midweek, not during my carbup, would that still be ok, assuming that I'm not eating any fats or other carbs while i'm drinking?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Esox Express View Post
    Thank you for that lengthy post Botch. That answered a lot of questions that I'm sure many people here, including myself, were thinking.

    My question is about alcohol. If a had a few beers one night around midweek, not during my carbup, would that still be ok, assuming that I'm not eating any fats or other carbs while i'm drinking?
    The only problem I can see, as long as you are drinking an alcoholic beverage low in carbs is that it may screw with your T/E ratios. I wouldn't recommend it, however I can't say that I haven't done it myself at one time or another. Now, if you only have a couple drinks during the week on occasion you will be just fine, but if you're drinking several nights a week then it may become a problem. I would save my beer drinking for the weekends 99% of the time but if there was a social event that I attended during the week I may put back a brew or two with the guys. However, this is something I would do very occasionally and since we are all working hard on this diet to better ourselves anyways I think it is good to restrain yourself from alcohol. Especially because you are already okay to have a couple during the carb up, which is plenty IMO.

    The good news is that this diet is GREAT for a hangover, lol. Have you ever wondered why you crave greezy a** foods the morning after a night of heavy drinking? Then, when you eat a bunch (like a huge McDonalds meal) you feel like shlt? The rise in insulin you receive from that meal is the reason you feel like shlt after eating. Your body just went through a night of feeling great as you were drunk and once you give it that little pick-me-up of insulin it wants more. But on this diet you will not be getting an insulin rise after a night of drinking so you will not have such a problem with hangovers. WARNING: I do not condone ANYONE to abuse alcohol. I am just stating this to spread the knowledge.
    Last edited by Botch; 08-15-2008 at 10:09 PM.

  13. Very important not to get in too much alcohol. It can inhibit fat oxidation.

  14. Ok thanks guys. I usually take it pretty easy anyway, It's just that if one of my buddies offers me a beer and I say "no thanks, I'm on a diet"...... well you can imagine what they say.

  15. Hahaha yeah I get where you're coming from Esox. You may find that saying "no thanks" is enough and then you don't have to go into any sort of explanation.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    Very important not to get in too much alcohol. It can inhibit fat oxidation.
    Yes this is true. If you're "dieting down" per se it is not a good idea to include alcohol in your diet. Just for the shear fact that you have extra calories to burn in the form of alcohol (which the body burns before anything else), so during that time your body is not burning fat. And to top it off you are giving your body calories that don't have any nutritional value when you are already in a caloric defecit. If you are going to eat the extra calories it might as well be from real food with some nutritional value.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Esox Express View Post
    Ok thanks guys. I usually take it pretty easy anyway, It's just that if one of my buddies offers me a beer and I say "no thanks, I'm on a diet"...... well you can imagine what they say.
    Yeah I understand. Been in the same situation. If "No i'm dieting" doesn't work, I hit usually hit them with the "Not during training". And if they persist I invite them to do my routine in the gym.

  18. Question:

    How do these macros look for the Anabolic Diet? I'm 6'4 265-270, depending on the day of the week. I'm looking to recomp/slowly lose fat.

    grams calories %total
    Total 3453
    Protein 344 1376 39.85%
    Carbs 40 160 4.63%
    Fiber 19 76 2.2%
    Sugar 15 60 1.74%
    Fat 213 1917 55.52%
    Sat 48 432 12.51%
    Poly 58 522 15.12%
    Mono 105 945 27.37%

  19. what supps are ok to use while on this diet? specifically, can i effectively use a test-freeing supp, or are the pathways for its delivery messed with on this rollercoaster of a diet?

  20. One thing about CKD is that it may slow thyroid a bit on the low carb days, so maybe use Venom or something with Tyrosine and Gugglestones to keep it running optimally. ALso get plenty of cardio and weight training in.

  21. Midweek Carb Up:

    This morning I had 900mg ALA, followed by 3 scoops of waxy maize (120 carbs) followed by 3 bowls of Golden Grahms (350ish carbs), then went back to low carbing it. When I played volleyball tonight, I played amazing. Definitely could tell a difference from last week. I had plenty of energy. I was diving all over the court, my sets were on, and my hits were money. There were a couple other differences from last week:

    -2.5g PLCAR (ALCAR pregame last week, PLCAR works 100 times better)
    -1 serving Poseidon (not sure if that did anything)

    I may wait until Saturday this week for a carb up, seeing as I have to do some surveillance on Friday night.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Question:

    How do these macros look for the Anabolic Diet? I'm 6'4 265-270, depending on the day of the week. I'm looking to recomp/slowly lose fat.

    grams calories %total
    Total 3453
    Protein 344 1376 39.85%
    Carbs 40 160 4.63%
    Fiber 19 76 2.2%
    Sugar 15 60 1.74%
    Fat 213 1917 55.52%
    Sat 48 432 12.51%
    Poly 58 522 15.12%
    Mono 105 945 27.37%
    This looks okay bro but I would really try keeping your protein at ~30% and fat at ~70% if you haven't tried this already. I would also try and get at least 10g more fiber per day. Your overall fat ratios and caloric intake look good though.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Manimalia View Post
    what supps are ok to use while on this diet? specifically, can i effectively use a test-freeing supp, or are the pathways for its delivery messed with on this rollercoaster of a diet?
    A test-freeing supplement such as divanil is great on this diet. The nature of this diet will raise your testosterone levels so you will have more to free up. The type of supplements I would avoid on this diet are just basically strong stimulants as this can put your hormones out of wack.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    One thing about CKD is that it may slow thyroid a bit on the low carb days, so maybe use Venom or something with Tyrosine and Gugglestones to keep it running optimally. ALso get plenty of cardio and weight training in.
    Good point. Something for the thyroid can be very helpful on this diet. However, as a personal choice I would stay away from venom as it has some strong stimulants in there as well. Taking something for the thyroid throughout the week and Tyrosine Wednesday through Friday as part of a nootropic cocktail would be ideal.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Midweek Carb Up:

    This morning I had 900mg ALA, followed by 3 scoops of waxy maize (120 carbs) followed by 3 bowls of Golden Grahms (350ish carbs), then went back to low carbing it. When I played volleyball tonight, I played amazing. Definitely could tell a difference from last week. I had plenty of energy. I was diving all over the court, my sets were on, and my hits were money. There were a couple other differences from last week:

    -2.5g PLCAR (ALCAR pregame last week, PLCAR works 100 times better)
    -1 serving Poseidon (not sure if that did anything)

    I may wait until Saturday this week for a carb up, seeing as I have to do some surveillance on Friday night.
    Good update! I'm glad that this protocol is working for you. I also like to take carnitines throughout the week on this diet and I feel like they do a great deal for me.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    Good update! I'm glad that this protocol is working for you. I also like to take carnitines throughout the week on this diet and I feel like they do a great deal for me.
    Yeah, PLCAR is a wondersupp. No other non-hormonal supplement is in the same ballpark in my eyes. I'm trying to conserve it as suppliers are saying it may be hard to come by in the future, so I'm only using it before I play sports and using ALCAR the rest of the time.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Botch View Post
    This looks okay bro but I would really try keeping your protein at ~30% and fat at ~70% if you haven't tried this already. I would also try and get at least 10g more fiber per day. Your overall fat ratios and caloric intake look good though.
    Sounds good. Alot have people have been saying to try and get proteins from leaner meat sources, and fats from cleaner sources such as fish oil, peanut butter, and EVOO. Right now I've been getting about 70% of my fats from meat and eggs products. Should I try and integrate a higher % of good fats and lean protein into my diet?

  28. I'd say eggs are "good fats."


    Also, so are cheeses, they contain high amounts of CLA.


    Add in fish oils with cheese, eggs, and maybe some olive oil and you're set.

  29. Salmon is so delicious though.

    Lots of EFA's, and protein = Anabolic Diet food of the century award.

  30. How do you feel about fatty chicken, steak and pork?
  

  
 

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