- 01-25-2006, 03:24 PM
- 01-25-2006, 03:26 PM
Wouldn't Nolvadex XT be a good choice for PCT? It's what Gaspari recomends.
- 01-25-2006, 03:41 PM
I would politely suggest to both of you that you do a little more research on PCT protocols before starting a cycle. You will find a lot of conflicting information (not to mention some very bitter arguments), but it is best that you know what you are getting into.
Gaspari's *Novedex XT* is NOT the same thing as Nolva (tamoxifen) which is a SERM. Novedex XT is ATD and you may want to think twice before running an ATD only PCT. But it will depend on what you are using and how long. In any case, it's important that you have at least a basic understanding of these things, confusing as they may be, so that you don't get into any trouble you might have been able to avoid (search for rebound gyno for an example).
01-25-2006, 03:56 PM
Well I allready had the NHA stack and I have read logs where it worked very well for others. I have done one heck of a lot of reading and this seems to me the most sensible way to go. I am of course open to suggestion.
01-25-2006, 04:09 PM
I'll be interested to hear how it goes. I'll be doing Halodrol in the spring time too. I'm using Nolva right now for PCT. Last time I went with ATD and had no problems, but after reading through all the debates here and at BB.com with Dr.D, PA, Big Cat and the rest of them, I decided that I would stick with the Nolva this time. How are you dosing the Halodrol?
01-25-2006, 04:15 PM
I read the debate, I don't know what way to go really, but people have had good success with ATD it seems so...
I am just going to take 1 tab early in the morning run it for 30 days. Apparently that's all you need. There are some pretty good logs. Most people are reporting very little sides.
01-27-2006, 04:59 PM
H-50 does not aromatize, and has anti-estrogenic/anti-progestenic effects. Why would you need a SERM for it?Originally Posted by Jameson
01-27-2006, 05:12 PM
Yes that what I was thinking too, from what I've read I believe my PCT is pretty solid. The only conern I have is my liver and I ordered another 3 bottles of Liver Pro to add to my first 3. I'm open to suggestion like I said but I did do my homework to the best of my ability.
01-27-2006, 05:15 PM
Novadex is ATD! ATD is one component of NHA.Originally Posted by delta314
01-27-2006, 05:18 PM
Yes I was aware of that.
01-27-2006, 05:18 PM
I would get a blood test before and after the cycle. I'm planning on doing a Halodrol cycle around April or May. I'm reading as many logs as I can to learn as much as possible before hand.
01-27-2006, 05:31 PM
Indeed Nolva is a very good Pct product. I have never used it myself, but from the literature, and the plethora of people who have used it, it is a wise choice. Serms and Atd I beleive have their places in a good PCT. Dream weaver will not be running an ATD ONLY cycle, as the NHA stack also incorporates ActivaTe. I am not sure if it also incorporates Lean Extreme, but adding this product to a Pct protocol would also be a wise decision. I also read the debate, and actually asked Big Cat a question, to which he came out and wished death on Dr.D! As such, the thread was locked , which I wish it hadn't so we could hear all the sides of this argument. I was confused by this thread as well, but you cannot deny the many, many succesful Pct's using Atd along with other ancilliaries that have been run by many people on this board, including myself. So to say that Atd is not a wise choice, is not a wise choice of words! As with everything in life, there are going to be conflicting points of views, and conflicting arguments and beliefs. There are different paths to get to get to a certain goal, so there could be more than one right way in my opinion. Ahyhow, I am getting a little of topic here, but to make a long story short, Dreamweaver, I beleive the Pct protocol you have is pretty solid for you. H-50 did not seem to shut me down that bad, so you should be back up and running soon afterwards. Keep it simple, or you will find yourself very confused, and with no pct protocol.Originally Posted by Jameson
01-27-2006, 05:34 PM
Allways a wise decision!Originally Posted by delta314
01-27-2006, 05:37 PM
Yes it does include the lean extreme. It's all the complications with PCT that made me decide on something less suppresive, I did a lot of reading and if I were going to do something a little harsher I would probably have gone with Dr. D's PCT suggestions invloving SERM and decreasing dosages.
Thanks for your input.
01-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Yah I'm working away from home or maybe I would.
01-28-2006, 01:27 AM
"you cannot deny the many, many succesful Pct's using Atd along with other ancilliaries that have been run by many people on this board, including myself. So to say that Atd is not a wise choice, is not a wise choice of words!"
Not only would I not deny it, I would add myself to the list! I did an ATD only PCT and loved it. Had no problems whatsoever and even continued to gain. I'm using Nolva right now and frankly, I am not liking it near as much. This time around I decided against the ATD based PCT because of everything I'd read--there are lots of folks with far more experience than me saying SERMs are tried and true while ATD is kind of the new guy on the block and may or may not be tied to the rebound gyno question. So I went with the Nolva and plan on tapering off into an AI.
I did not actually say that ATD is not a wise choice, I said only that it might be wise to research it further and think it through before deciding on it. If I made it sound otherwise I apologize. Dreamweaver made it clear that he had in fact been following all the frustrating and sometimes contradictory PCT debates that are going on and chose to go the ATD only route anyway. More power to him! I hope his cycle and PCT go well cause I'll be trying Halodrol myself in a few months and would much prefer to use the ATD pct without Nolva. Nolva makes me feel lousy and carries the threat of possible long term side effects like vision problems so if I can do without it, or just keep it on hand in case it's needed, that would be far preferable. Again, sorry guys if I sounded overly critical.
01-28-2006, 01:34 AM
01-28-2006, 08:05 AM
Jameson, I wouldn't post anything in a forum with people who have the experience that you will find in AM, unless I did have some basic understanding of what I was talking about. Your first post came off as being a tad on the sarcastic side. (maybe it was because I mis-spelled Novedex... )
Regardless, I have done ATD only PCT for some legal cycles and have not had any problems. That doesn't mean someone else wont. My thing is I will not do anything illegal due to my job. And that includes prescription drugs for PCT.
01-28-2006, 12:17 PM
The reasons I chose ATD, is 1) many people have been successful with it and it has good reviews 2) it's legal 3) I have read that Halodrol is not harsh. 4) SERMS have potential long term side effects (so I've read). 5) I've also read that SERM's make you feel like crap.
I am sure that SERMs have their place in harsher cycles but that's not the case here.
Anyhow I started today, nothing to report of course, I had a could cardio, feel pretty good.
I am taking 5 grams of fish oil with 3 grams of flax a day. I am taking 9 caps of Liver Pro a day. I weighed in a 261 on a very acurate scale, I hope to be down to 240 by the end of my PCT or the end of March.
I have a very clean diet and will post it folks are interested, I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to myself and diets, having years of going up and down. Being a really ****ty off season dieter has made me a real cutting expert lol. I have about 3 or 4 different types that have worked for me.
I will be doing a 3 day split of mostly compound movements, I am currently doing some pre-exhaust work but may reconsider that when I change up after this week. Currently my strength is not good, and because of my age the gains in strength have been coming very slowly.
I am very in tune with my body so I will be an excellent candidate for people to get an idea of what to expect. What I expect from my reading is increased strength and much better body composition when all's said and done.
01-28-2006, 04:18 PM
DW, I would be very interested in looking at your different diets, as I have a tendency to go up and down. I'll need to do a cutting cycle soon, and any advice will be appreciated.
01-28-2006, 04:34 PM
.I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to myself and diets, having years of going up and down. Being a really ****ty off season dieter has made me a real cutting expert lol
I know exactly what you mean bro !
01-29-2006, 03:48 PM
No problem there is the basic precontest type that I used, it's pretty brutal, basically more thanhalf of your carbs come from vegtables (Brocoli, Cauliflower, green beans, snow peas, sweet peppers etc.) You eat a ton of these the only other carbs are maybe half a yam and maybe a little rice. What I did is I basically grazed during the days and had another big feed at night. You need to eat a lot of protein on this diet and the fat is very low.
There is a cycle diet 3 days low, 3 days medium 3 days high and repeat. You ownly drop the various nutrients by 30 grams between cycles. I like this diet a little better as you get away from the mountain of vegtables. You still eat very clean but you ownly have 3 extremely low carb days out of 9 which makes it easier to do.
CKD, I have had some luck with it but this is a diet that would be more suited to gradual body composition improvement, in my opinion. What happens to me is a lose a pile at first and then I lose fat very gradually and my muscle mass goes up slightly. It's a long process, I would like to try it for a year to see what happens. I usually want to see the weight come off faster though.
I am experimenting with another one right now, I have lost over 40 lbs so far but I was way heavier than I had ever been, when I get leaner I'll assess the results and perhaps reccomend it. I will see how my body composition looks when spring comes. It's a pretty contrversial diet and it is by far the easiest one I have tried so far. The weight is coming off but we'll see if I can retain a decent amount of mass.
I can go into more detail about any of the diets, but will have to trust to memory about the actual amounts. The conepts are what's important though.
They're a lot of different things that work, you just have to get one that suits you best.
01-30-2006, 09:34 AM
There is one observation I would like to make about the Halodrol, there is some of a stimulation going on here, I’m pretty sensitive to these things and I feel at bit buzzed. It’s quite subtle and I’m sure it will wear off. Did anybody else notice anything.
01-30-2006, 03:10 PM
Hey DW. No, I can't say I did, at least not that I remember.Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
01-30-2006, 05:51 PM
I guess it's just me, it's mild and like I said it will wear off.
01-31-2006, 10:45 AM
Good workout last night (Chest and back), full intensity and good focus. There is definitely something happening, nothing amazing but my intensity was definitely better and I seemed to have better endurance. Some of this would have happened anyway, but I am experiencing some kind of stimulation from the Halodrol, I felt it right after I took my first pill, at times I feel a little buzzed but when I got to the gym I was really able to focus. It’s like when I have a specific task I am really able to focus and when I don’t I feel really defocused.
01-31-2006, 10:46 AM
Oh and definitely showing an increased libido. This happens to me on 4ad as well, but wears off.
02-02-2006, 08:36 AM
Ok I’m on day 6 and my workouts have been very good, I am able to increase the weight on any isolated exercises I do, it’s not remarkable but it’s definite progress. The compound exercises I can feel some extra strength but it really hasn’t turned into any significant increase, this is more do to the fact that I’m on a calorie deficit. It’s pretty hard to increase your big lifts when your losing weight.
No real side effects beside that little buzzed feeling. The one other thing is my libido is very high, I would have to say uncomfortably so. Some of the women here at the office are starting to look good, when under normal circumstances…
Next week I will be moving to an almost exclusive compound routine. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
02-03-2006, 12:34 PM
Another decent workout, again gains in strength not so much in power, the libido still is very high, I feel pretty good and like what I am seeing in the mirror, itís going to be interesting to see what the scale says tomorrow.
02-03-2006, 03:31 PM
Just a guess here but to counteract the E-rebound?Originally Posted by delta314
02-03-2006, 04:04 PM
Possibly. I know what the manufacturer says, but then there are allot of people on the board that have had much more firsthand experience. I have a few cycles under my belt, and I've always done ok without a SERM. If I start to have problems, I'll have to stop using these type of supps. I have to stick with legal options only.Originally Posted by KD1
02-03-2006, 04:44 PM
Does halo cause gyno!? If so what do you plan for combating gyno?
02-03-2006, 05:08 PM
02-03-2006, 08:50 PM
Yeah, Delta is right.Originally Posted by delta314
02-04-2006, 01:49 PM
Weighed in at 259.75 today which is only a 1.25 weight loss which is a little bit less than I would normally have lost, and about what I expected given what I have seen in the mirror. It appears that I will be able to maintain my muscle very well on this stuff. That's about what I was looking for.
The libido is still high but not as out of control as it was, kind of a relief. It's not fun fighting off wood in office meetings. lol
02-04-2006, 09:14 PM
Guys - the halogen (that would be the chlorine atom at C-4) on the molecule of the active ingredient in H-50 prevents it from aromatizing to an estrogen (there is no aromatization in the A ring because of this).
Estrogen rebound or gyno or whatever is not an issue with H-50 use.
Now, as with ANY hormonal, using PCT is a good insurance policy.
The people who are now saying ATD (and 3-OHAT) are no good for PCT are selling competing products or sell ATD and are about to launch a non-ATD containing anti-aromatase.
Do you think anastrazole or letrozole suck for PCT? Ask anyone who has used them.
ATD (and 3-OHAT and 3,6,17-trione) work in the EXACT same manner. They are all suicide inhibitors of aromatase.
ATD *may* in too high a dose blunt libido in some people (it seems the younger you are, the more pronounced this effect is for some unknown reason based on my observations). As much as people selling ATD would like you to think you need to take 75mg-100mg per day for PCT and that 25mg is a good dose, this is based on conjecture.
I'd bet that for PCT (e.g. - not as a standalone to increase test levels into the 2000ng+ range) that 25mg of ATD per day is more than enough for 80% of the people out here.
But telling you to take 3X-4X that amount per day means you need to purchase more products, and thus, the people making it make more money because you use more.
There is a reason I added 3-OHAT to Novedex XT. Aside from it being a "good mop", it also is a metabolite of 3,6,17-trione and helps *significantly* with libido issues.
Gaspari has completed two independent clinical studies on Novedex XT. One was done (and published) by Dr. Tim Ziegnefuss of the ORG and the other is finished (had 20 guys on it for a month) out of Baylor University by Dr. Darryn Willoughby and will be published (I hope) next month so I can then discuss the results.
The next move is a multicenter (3 centers) study on 30 guys using Nov XT vs. 3,6,17-trione long term (90-180 day with a 30 day follow up when they come off) which will be a pivotal (and expensive) study.
Just remember this when you're buying a knock off ATD product riding our coattails.
Clinical research, which I think all of you would argue is a good thing and much more "reliable" than board logs and such, is a good thing for the industry and it costs $$$ to do it.
So the next time you want to be a cheap ass and save $8 on a month's worth of PCT by purchasing a clone product, just remember that the $8 you saved is $8 less spent on real, independent research on these substances.
You guys have a choice to make and where to spend your money.
If sheer $$$ is your only concern then you're really shortsighted.
I'll get off my soap box now.
Anyhoo...ATD is perfectlt fine for PCT and anyone saying different, ask them for a study showing it is not. Not a study done in vitro on human placental microsomes or some other crap, I mean a bona fide, real study.
Or else tell them it is speculation!
02-05-2006, 12:44 AM
BK: How about a product similar in effect yet also as "liver friendly" as Var? Please?
02-05-2006, 01:36 AM
SHIIIETT!! I loved H-50! I did not get my blodd work done, partly because I am a jack ass sometimes, and partly because I got really sick for a couple of weeks, but I can say with all honesty that H-50 was the most side effect free hormone (leagal or not) that I have ever taken! That is the thing I loved most about it, along wtih the quality gains. Again,I would have loved to have gotten my blood work done to check everything out, but I felt almost no bad side effects from H-50.Originally Posted by Pax
02-05-2006, 09:44 AM
that's promising that it has little to n sides, but still, noone has ever posted any bloodwork on it, including Gaspari/BK. A var product would be great because it has always done wonders for me in terms of hardness and density, not to mention the fat loss.
02-05-2006, 09:53 AM
It might have been a while ago but I could swear I remember 3 bloodwork samples offered to represent 3 different dosages a while back. Dig a little deeper, "The Truth is Out There"Originally Posted by Pax
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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