Meals

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  1. Re: Meals


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Link?
    Yea I might fall asleep first lol I think zirred linked it

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post

    Yea I might fall asleep first lol I think zirred linked it

    - Valdez
    I haven't seen it.
    •   
       

  3. Re: Meals


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I haven't seen it.
    I just looked I'll find it...later I'm going to bed now. Broncos tomo

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Im not confusing x and y again I was simply stating that you won't go into a catabolic state after fasting for 8 hours or 10 hour or even 20 hours.... I'm not saying anything about x or y diet types I'm saying that just because he's been told to follow x type dieting doesn't mean it's the only way to do things.
    You are suggesting a Y solution to an X problem for the record. OP has trouble hitting certain macros and calories within his allotted time and skipping a meal in his situation is dumb, period. So is diet hopping. See one through within a selected goal period or you will basically not be dieting at all by jumping from strategy to strategy. Diets don't work like buffet lines. Next time he wants to gain, he can investigate alternatives so long as he sticks to which ever chosen methodology until his goal is achieved. Otherwise it goes back to High Fat/Low Carb vs Low Carb/High Fat. Both work but not together.

    Back off topic though, I posted an article referencing a number of studies by Layne Norton, I believe it was in this thread but can find it again if not. You may take his interpretations at face value or look up his references, understand them all in tandem on your own and come up with your summary. Just make sure it's accurate.

    He shows that regular, frequent meals high in protein do elevate protein synthesis, as do fasting based diets over a significant number of hours, which would seem to negate a need for eating every two or three. However, he was able to show that while in an anabolic state, ingesting protein either by food or supplementation in frequent intervals did spike protein synthesis over and above the elevated rate propagated by a variety of diets, effectively demonstrating that frequent, multiple meals per day is more beneficial than fasting where protein synthesis and essentially anabolism are concerned.

    I italicized more because yes, multiple dieting strategies work. The problem I have with IF and the Warrior Diet is that catabolism and anabolism are not black and white issues.

    I can't draw pictures here unfortunately but imagine a color scale of black on one end and white on the other, with shades of grey going from darker to lighter between.

    Black is catabolic, white is anabolic. You can make gains in the light grey area and you can gain in the darkest of grey. Gaining in the lighter shade lends itself to greater protein synthesis, however. When I'm done lifting, I want my body to be building at as close to 100% optimally as possible. According to the studies used in the article, regular, frequent intake of meals or supplements high in protein allow this to happen given an elevated rate of protein synthesis plus an extra boost for those who do consume food every 3 hours or so.

    Just because you may get 10 lbs stronger on the squat every week (or in a longer interval depending on your experience) doesn't mean you are "dialed in" when you could be gaining 15-20 pounds instead. It's a deceptive gain and according to the studies could be better.

    And deviating from the black and white world of lab coats to the grey area of real world application, I know when I don't eat 5-6 meals a day, and especially breakfast before my morning lifting sessions, I can not train at the same intensity or recover at the same rate. Training intensity and recovery are like the golden goose to Jack's beanstalk in bodybuilding and limiting (not totally stunting, of course) both is ridiculous. Yeah people say they get used to it but I would like to see an honest outline and breakdown of their routine and intensity. Not what they should be doing, but what actually happens. I just don't see snatches, cleans, heavy deads and presses or high volume of the same at 100%. And we are talking about bulking so your intensity better be high. I realized I just opened a can of worms to purely subjective and defensive bull**** "you don't know me" type arguments but take an honest look.

    Anecdotally, the kings of mass building don't utilize IF or Warrior diets, at least not as a staple for bulking which is what this forum is about. You wouldn't tell Kai Greene or Jay Cutler how to bulk any more than you would tell LeBron James how to play basketball. Or maybe you would, I don't know. And yeah, I get that people don't all want to look like that, but if a bulk is your goal you want to gain quality mass as fast as possible, universally. Your upper limit is just lower than theirs. Getting to yours should be done as effectively and efficiently as possible, which, again, is the problem I have with IF and especially Warrior Diets. At least one IF diet, Leangains, recommends whey and bcaa intake between meals while pretending to be a fasting diet. It'll put you farther up the grey scale to white.

  5. LG does NOT promote whey between meals. You've said that over and over yet it is not close to true. Yes, BCAA is recommended, but not whey between meals. Whey can be used as an alternative to BCAA pre-training, but not haphazardly between meals.

    No person on this board is competing at the IFBB level and, elephant in the room, copious doses of AAS vastly change the equation on protein synthesis. Using the elite of any sport will not translate to the lay person as we're not programmed in the same manner as them when it comes to talent and genetics. Training and using the same AAS cocktail like Ronnie or Chuck Vogelpohl will not make you into them or even put you in the same league as them. This is the main reason that the applicability of professionals of any sport has little bearing on the overwhelming majority of the population.

    To address the IF and intensity (granted n=1 here), while I implemented this particular diet, I added over 200lbs to my total while losing approximately 15-18lbs in a period of about 6 months. The only reason I deviated from it was that my training schedule changed and my bench and squat/deadlift sessions wouldn't end until after my feeding window was open and my geared sessions would take close to 2-3 hours.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    LG does NOT promote whey between meals. You've said that over and over yet it is not close to true. Yes, BCAA is recommended, but not whey between meals. Whey can be used as an alternative to BCAA pre-training, but not haphazardly between meals.

    No person on this board is competing at the IFBB level and, elephant in the room, copious doses of AAS vastly change the equation on protein synthesis. Using the elite of any sport will not translate to the lay person as we're not programmed in the same manner as them when it comes to talent and genetics. Training and using the same AAS cocktail like Ronnie or Chuck Vogelpohl will not make you into them or even put you in the same league as them. This is the main reason that the applicability of professionals of any sport has little bearing on the overwhelming majority of the population.

    To address the IF and intensity (granted n=1 here), while I implemented this particular diet, I added over 200lbs to my total while losing approximately 15-18lbs in a period of about 6 months. The only reason I deviated from it was that my training schedule changed and my bench and squat/deadlift sessions wouldn't end until after my feeding window was open and my geared sessions would take close to 2-3 hours.
    BCAAs take advantage of the benefits of frequent, regular ingestion of amino acids just like the diets some people seem to hold in contention for lack of research as to the efficacy of said diet. The TEF angle was only one in the discussion of frequency too. It evolved to protein synthesis and essentially became the argument of many that frequent meals are unnecessary all the way around and the use of such a diet is archaic, while leangains minions are frequently ingesting strategic macros (whole protein) and aminos (bcaa) outside their feeding times anyways. Official feeding times carrying the label that is.

    I took the whey suggestion from leangains FAQ section but it may have been only pre-workout though this still acknowledges a need for nutrient timing and frequent ingestion of aminos, still contradictory to the argument that a frequent ingestion of aminos isn't effective due to a lack of research. I realize these are general argument points and come from a smattering of people across a few topic threads but it's a ridiculous box to be on as they down protein around the clock or at least as frequently as 5 or 6 times per day between meals and supplementation, especially when that camp seems to believe it doesn't matter when macros are ingested as long as they are. It's a lot of dancing around to eat within a window and then outside of it with supps when you could just break it all down to 5 or 6 meals, have the same macros ingested in the same time frame along with frequent protein intake.

    Yes, copious doses of AAS do change the protein synthesis ballgame. That said, if LG and the Warrior Diet were the optimum bulk dieting methodologies, AAS coupled with LG or Warrior would be the "weapon of choice", but it isn't. And yeah, genetics do play a huge role in aesthetics. Muscle belly insertions, fiber types, shape et cetera. Even ugly people grow though and everyone in between. One person on diet X may have a bicep that inserts an inch or two higher than another on the same diet. The fact the longer bicep will look better has no bearing on the diet's efficacy. Furthermore, many people on this board use AAS. There is even a forum for it. If not AAS, pro-hormones. I believe your company sells supplements to ellicit hormonal changes? The general readership is a mixture of naturals, users, beginners, intermediates and a handful of seemingly experts, or at least well versed lifters so sampling for a specific population or excluding one isn't very accurate, except for maybe elite level bodybuilders or powerlifters but you never know. Either way, a diet is a diet for a pro or joe alike.

    Congratulations on adding 200lbs to your total. That is significant and a source of accomplishment I'm sure. As an aside, and only for my curiosity, are you natural? Do you use PES products? And, unfortunately without a time machine, nobody will ever know if that time period could've produced a 250 lb gain. Also, while powerlifting and bodybuilding are similar in that we both lift weights, different physiological reactions are the goal for each sport.

    Bodybuilding, where bulking traditionally finds it's home, is designed to induce as much muscle damage as possible, where powerlifting largely takes advantage of neural adaptations. There is of course cross over but it's plainly obvious an hour or two of bodybuilding training vs. powerlifting ellicits much different results which can change the ballgame of protein synthesis significantly as well.

    We don't have many studies to refer to on this point. The closest measures something like .8 grams of protein per pound of lean mass on a sample tested for powerlifting. Powerlifting /=/ Bodybuilding.

  7. Rojda=3
    Rest of the bro-scientists=0

    And thanks for the laugh of the day.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  8. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    BCAAs take advantage of the benefits of frequent, regular ingestion of amino acids just like the diets some people seem to hold in contention for lack of research as to the efficacy of said diet. The TEF angle was only one in the discussion of frequency too. It evolved to protein synthesis and essentially became the argument of many that frequent meals are unnecessary all the way around and the use of such a diet is archaic, while leangains minions are frequently ingesting strategic macros (whole protein) and aminos (bcaa) outside their feeding times anyways. Official feeding times carrying the label that is.

    I took the whey suggestion from leangains FAQ section but it may have been only pre-workout though this still acknowledges a need for nutrient timing and frequent ingestion of aminos, still contradictory to the argument that a frequent ingestion of aminos isn't effective due to a lack of research. I realize these are general argument points and come from a smattering of people across a few topic threads but it's a ridiculous box to be on as they down protein around the clock or at least as frequently as 5 or 6 times per day between meals and supplementation, especially when that camp seems to believe it doesn't matter when macros are ingested as long as they are. It's a lot of dancing around to eat within a window and then outside of it with supps when you could just break it all down to 5 or 6 meals, have the same macros ingested in the same time frame along with frequent protein intake.

    Yes, copious doses of AAS do change the protein synthesis ballgame. That said, if LG and the Warrior Diet were the optimum bulk dieting methodologies, AAS coupled with LG or Warrior would be the "weapon of choice", but it isn't. And yeah, genetics do play a huge role in aesthetics. Muscle belly insertions, fiber types, shape et cetera. Even ugly people grow though and everyone in between. One person on diet X may have a bicep that inserts an inch or two higher than another on the same diet. The fact the longer bicep will look better has no bearing on the diet's efficacy. Furthermore, many people on this board use AAS. There is even a forum for it. If not AAS, pro-hormones. I believe your company sells supplements to ellicit hormonal changes? The general readership is a mixture of naturals, users, beginners, intermediates and a handful of seemingly experts, or at least well versed lifters so sampling for a specific population or excluding one isn't very accurate, except for maybe elite level bodybuilders or powerlifters but you never know. Either way, a diet is a diet for a pro or joe alike.

    Congratulations on adding 200lbs to your total. That is significant and a source of accomplishment I'm sure. As an aside, and only for my curiosity, are you natural? Do you use PES products? And, unfortunately without a time machine, nobody will ever know if that time period could've produced a 250 lb gain. Also, while powerlifting and bodybuilding are similar in that we both lift weights, different physiological reactions are the goal for each sport.

    Bodybuilding, where bulking traditionally finds it's home, is designed to induce as much muscle damage as possible, where powerlifting largely takes advantage of neural adaptations. There is of course cross over but it's plainly obvious an hour or two of bodybuilding training vs. powerlifting ellicits much different results which can change the ballgame of protein synthesis significantly as well.

    We don't have many studies to refer to on this point. The closest measures something like .8 grams of protein per pound of lean mass on a sample tested for powerlifting. Powerlifting /=/ Bodybuilding.
    And you say that I ramble...

    There's too much crap in this post to even take the time to address other than your red herrings.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    And you say that I ramble...

    There's too much crap in this post to even take the time to address other than your red herrings.
    Ok.

  10. AAS =/= natural.

    LG, Doggcrapp, Warrior Diet, etc, are designed for the person that is not utilizing steroids. You add any PEDs and everything goes up in the air. A person going on a natural lean bulk would never add +1500 calories to their maintenance level; a person who has a cocktail of Winstrol, D-Bol, etc, etc, can very well manage to go that route and still continue to have it being a "lean bulk". That's the purpose of steroids - to allow you to make gains you wouldn't naturally make. In the same coin, steroids will also allow you to "overtrain" and get away with it while still making gains, therefore, not quite relevant to the discussion.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  11. "I can't apply inferred knowledge from a picture book but I know how to pick a popular forum member and ride his opinion coat tails while ingesting macros 5-6 times per day and then slamming the notion of ingesting macros 5-6 times per day. Oh yah, and back to my original post in this thread; if you can't get your macros in, just skip them. It's cool." - Celorza

    And thanks for the laughs. I still want you to let me know when you break the buck fifty club in the bulking forum with all this super magic diet knowledge that makes all of bodybuilding before it a unicorn or something.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    AAS =/= natural.

    LG, Doggcrapp, Warrior Diet, etc, are designed for the person that is not utilizing steroids. You add any PEDs and everything goes up in the air. A person going on a natural lean bulk would never add +1500 calories to their maintenance level; a person who has a cocktail of Winstrol, D-Bol, etc, etc, can very well manage to go that route and still continue to have it being a "lean bulk". That's the purpose of steroids - to allow you to make gains you wouldn't naturally make. In the same coin, steroids will also allow you to "overtrain" and get away with it while still making gains, therefore, not quite relevant to the discussion.
    This completely nullifies the argument that it doesn't matter when you get them in as long as you get them in, steroids or not. Steroids are a tool alongside training and diet. They are a multiplier. If the warrior diet is optimum without, it is accelerated with.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    "I can't apply inferred knowledge from a picture book but I know how to pick a popular forum member and ride his opinion coat tails while ingesting macros 5-6 times per day and then slamming the notion of ingesting macros 5-6 times per day. Oh yah, and back to my original post in this thread; if you can't get your macros in, just skip them. It's cool." - Celorza

    And thanks for the laughs. I still want you to let me know when you break the buck fifty club in the bulking forum with all this super magic diet knowledge that makes all of bodybuilding before it a unicorn or something.
    Lol I'm still waiting for you to get a brain and/or understand different goals in life are possible. I do not care about being a freak-show that can't wipe it's own ass. Oh and forgive me...but I have FAR more stuff going in my life than being under 10% BF (which I usually am anyway...).

    Now as far as waiting comes...I'm waiting for you to try and prove your totals in strength with me I am still sure I am stronger than you.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  14. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    This completely nullifies the argument that it doesn't matter when you get them in as long as you get them in, steroids or not. Steroids are a tool alongside training and diet. They are a multiplier. If the warrior diet is optimum without, it is accelerated with.
    Please explain how this nullifies the argument? And steroids are a tool, a multiplier, that are to be taken COMPLETELY out of the picture when deciding whether a diet for REGULAR people searching for NATURAL gains.

    It would be like me telling you to bulk the sh1t up, eat 6k calories above your maintenance a day and work your a$$ off in the gym, when you're done, just go and get liposuction done. I mean, it is a tool alongside training and diet as well, right?
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  15. Brb logging into bb.com to get away from pointless drama.

    "You're tiny brah"


    "I bet I lift more lb for lb brah"

    Stop being a bunch of babies. You don't agree, get over it and move on.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Brb logging into bb.com to get away from pointless drama.

    "You're tiny brah"


    "I bet I lift more lb for lb brah"

    Stop being a bunch of babies. You don't agree, get over it and move on.
    Stop being the meddling bitch if you don't like it. Just saying !
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
  17. Re: Meals


    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Stop being the meddling bitch if you don't like it. Just saying !
    Everyone chill out... Good lord

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Stop being the meddling bitch if you don't like it. Just saying !
    seriously?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by bmftisftw View Post
    seriously?
    ' no one gets the annoying relationship Jim and I have, he talks to me like that, I do too...not being serious with him, neither is he sometimes when he dizzes me.

    Question is to you: Seriously?
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    ' no one gets the annoying relationship Jim and I have, he talks to me like that, I do too...not being serious with him, neither is he sometimes when he dizzes me.

    Question is to you: Seriously?
    Idk cel, that was a little beyond what generally goes on.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Lol I'm still waiting for you to get a brain and/or understand different goals in life are possible. I do not care about being a freak-show that can't wipe it's own ass. Oh and forgive me...but I have FAR more stuff going in my life than being under 10% BF (which I usually am anyway...).

    Now as far as waiting comes...I'm waiting for you to try and prove your totals in strength with me I am still sure I am stronger than you.
    LOL. Talk about a meddling bitch. You can give all the neg rep points you want but I'm going to let you in on a secret, internet points don't mean anything. Real world application and results do. You are a very, very, very little dude in a bulking forum giving bulking advice, kind of. For all the studies you allegedly can read, you don't have a leg to stand on because application is another story altogether and you haven't done it.

    You instead try to change the subject and suggest a dude just skip some of his needed macros and then deduct points from people who call you out on that.

    All the internet points in the world won't make that advice in context smart. And again, I don't give a **** what your totals are. We are after different physiological effects, and yours clearly isn't hypertrophy.

    After football, bodybuilding became my goal and I would bet at the peak of my strength training I was stronger than you,even if I'm not still. Faster, more agile and more flexible with better reflexes too. You may have a ratio on me either now or then but hey, to go off topic (to the second power?) and briefly myself, I bet I was much more talented at applying my strength to an actual endeavour outside of just building it. And I'll take that over being a trivial little internet bitch the size of a 7th grader all day, along a physique you don't even know how to achieve, although you'll argue methodologies to such a physique as if you do.

    Now I typically prefer not to go in to the personal realm but it can be fun when it's brought to me. You sir, are a little bitch who wouldn't know how to bulk out of a baby crib and are talking out of your ass where results are concerned. All the studies in the world won't make your bs advice to the OP of this thread applicaple. Feel free to deduct away though, I heard it can add a few pounds during a fast. Hell, if I knew how I'd transfer all my points to you. They might make up for your body!


    Now getting back on topic, please tell the OP who needs to meet X amount of calories per day and is having trouble doing so how skipping some of them will help him, in his chosen diet, achieve his goal?

    Let's see whose actually deserving of +/- reputation points where applicaple advice is concerned, shall we? Or set me straight as a newb, are points intended for cattiness exhibited by posters?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza

    ' no one gets the annoying relationship Jim and I have, he talks to me like that, I do too...not being serious with him, neither is he sometimes when he dizzes me.

    Question is to you: Seriously?
    Lmao. Seriously?
    PEScience Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider http://facebook.com/pescience

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick

    Idk cel, that was a little beyond what generally goes on.
    :big ok:
    PEScience Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider http://facebook.com/pescience

  24. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post

    LOL. Talk about a meddling bitch. You can give all the neg rep points you want but I'm going to let you in on a secret, internet points don't mean anything. Real world application and results do. You are a very, very, very little dude in a bulking forum giving bulking advice, kind of. For all the studies you allegedly can read, you don't have a leg to stand on because application is another story altogether and you haven't done it.

    You instead try to change the subject and suggest a dude just skip some of his needed macros and then deduct points from people who call you out on that.

    All the internet points in the world won't make that advice in context smart. And again, I don't give a **** what your totals are. We are after different physiological effects, and yours clearly isn't hypertrophy.

    After football, bodybuilding became my goal and I would bet at the peak of my strength training I was stronger than you,even if I'm not still. Faster, more agile and more flexible with better reflexes too. You may have a ratio on me either now or then but hey, to go off topic (to the second power?) and briefly myself, I bet I was much more talented at applying my strength to an actual endeavour outside of just building it. And I'll take that over being a trivial little internet bitch the size of a 7th grader all day, along a physique you don't even know how to achieve, although you'll argue methodologies to such a physique as if you do.

    Now I typically prefer not to go in to the personal realm but it can be fun when it's brought to me. You sir, are a little bitch who wouldn't know how to bulk out of a baby crib and are talking out of your ass where results are concerned. All the studies in the world won't make your bs advice to the OP of this thread applicaple. Feel free to deduct away though, I heard it can add a few pounds during a fast. Hell, if I knew how I'd transfer all my points to you. They might make up for your body!

    Now getting back on topic, please tell the OP who needs to meet X amount of calories per day and is having trouble doing so how skipping some of them will help him, in his chosen diet, achieve his goal?

    Let's see whose actually deserving of +/- reputation points where applicaple advice is concerned, shall we? Or set me straight as a newb, are points intended for cattiness exhibited by posters?
    Bro just let it go.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post


    Now getting back on topic, please tell the OP who needs to meet X amount of calories per day and is having trouble doing so how skipping some of them will help him, in his chosen diet, achieve his goal?

    Let's see whose actually deserving of +/- reputation points where applicaple advice is concerned, shall we? Or set me straight as a newb, are points intended for cattiness exhibited by posters?
    its already been covered by hvac and others haha just add healthy fats like natty pb and a couple glasses of milk should be too easy to get those extra cals!!
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