Meals

[JudoJosh]

Tag your it.

YES!

Now let's see if I can keep up with the thread.

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[Rodja]

Whether or not you used steroids or specific supplements while on a particular diet is absolutely relevent to a discussion defending that particular diet. Your results from the diet would be severely skewed.


Which steroid compound and specific effect correlating to which diet are you referring to?

I've mentioned crossover between various training styles. Irregardless, the physiological effects of one style over another certainly are weighted heavily in one direction or another.

The burden of proof is a tricky one to place as the whole conversation has been off topic. So far, the traditional bodybuilding diet has been put on the defensive, with no legitimate offensive to take except to default to calling it BS because leangains says to something different and it's easier to just ignore decades of empirical evidence for the trendy new diet. And this has essentially been the conversation. It would seem to me burden of proof is on the people flinging poo at traditional diets to prove they aren't effective beyond a doubt and any limitation.

And again, empirical evidence with such broad and consistent results can not be discounted entirely as gym floor bs, not without proving otherwise beyond any limitation or doubt in the face of so much success from the pros on down to the lean bros with decent looking bumps on their arms.

Dogma is a system of belief or doctrine held by a group or organization. The leangains camp is certainly a group spewing dogma while choosing to ignore decades worth of real world results for dogma.

As far as a "sole parade" I've posted outside of this conversation, but within the conversation I do reply to the conversation.

Nice contradiction about AAS and diet efficacy. Didn't you just say that it wouldn't change the effects, but now you're saying it skews effects? If you review the thread, you will find that the first shot about diet was the need for breakfast to kickstart the metabolism and that's when it all started. That is where the burden of proof lies and nothing has yet to be provided to suport that position. Beyond that, you really need to brush up on what actually qualifies as empirical evidence and the differences between anecdotal and semi-empirical. We've already covered the fallacy of using anything used at the IFBB/national NPC level as any sort of proof as the drug cocktails do a tremendous amount of work for them and we're already dealing with genetically inclined individuals.

What I love the absolute most is that you fling dogmatic adherence on the LG community, yet they provide peer-reviewed data along the way. Not only that, but there is also recognition amongst the entire IF community that many different methods of IF exist and each has their own merits. Even Berardi has his own ebook on IF, so it is extremely ironic that you brought his name into the fold when he recognizes that there is merit to the many protocols of IF on body composition.

 

[TexasGuy]

YES!

Now let's see if I can keep up with the thread.

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Op is having trouble hitting macros in a given day on his chosen diet plan.

Celorza suggests OP just skips breakfast. Due to a lack of explanation, this was interpreted initially as if the OP should just skip his macros altogether.

It was stated this is a horrible idea. People on the leangains diet puffed up defensively.

The conversation then shifted to applying Diet Y to Diet X while defending Diet Y on Diet Y's terms and scattered across multiple threads in multiple forums.

Celorza came back and let everyone know that he does not, in fact, bulk or ever want to outside of his intial "amazing" newb gains where he started looking too much like a refrigerator at almost 150 pounds, yet he continued to give bulking advice to Diet X using Diet Y principles.

Other people chimed in with various angles along the way, whether on topic or not.

And here you are!

 

[hvactech]

welcome to the big show!

 

[bmftisftw]

:djparty:

 

[TexasGuy]

Nice contradiction about AAS and diet efficacy. Didn't you just say that it wouldn't change the effects, but now you're saying it skews effects? If you review the thread, you will find that the first shot about diet was the need for breakfast to kickstart the metabolism and that's when it all started. That is where the burden of proof lies and nothing has yet to be provided to suport that position. Beyond that, you really need to brush up on what actually qualifies as empirical evidence and the differences between anecdotal and semi-empirical. We've already covered the fallacy of using anything used at the IFBB/national NPC level as any sort of proof as the drug cocktails do a tremendous amount of work for them and we're already dealing with genetically inclined individuals.

What I love the absolute most is that you fling dogmatic adherence on the LG community, yet they provide peer-reviewed data along the way. Not only that, but there is also recognition amongst the entire IF community that many different methods of IF exist and each has their own merits. Even Berardi has his own on IF, so it is extremely ironic that you brought his name into the fold when he recognizes that there is merit to the many protocols of IF on body composition.

I love how you are dodging the question! Clearly you are taking my comment out of context. Of course steroids will skew results, this is why they are used. There is a difference between steroids skewing results and nullifying a diet altogether, which was the inference from Bla.

Yes, LG proponents have been providing peer reviewed information to support their claims while ignoring the same when it doesn't apply though the conversation spilled over to multiple threads and it's hard to keep it all organized. I realize Berardi has an IF protocol out there. As the conversation morphed from an evident miscommunication over Celorza's post to a defense of LG and attack of frequent, high protein meals, my stance was that multiple diets work through various metabolic pathways, including IF protocols and I said so many times in many threads on this topic.

The problem is that people attacking a diet that has been shown to be effective for decades from the pros to the joes argued one diets principles as if they are the universal dietary guideline. And they are not.

Let me state directly, IF protocols work. Applying Diet Y principles to Diet X isn't a good idea and neither is arguing from that stand point. You can not prove frequent, high protein meals are ineffective because they are, even if a white coat hasn't put it on paper.

And yes, nutrient timing and TEF are applicable to metabolism and fat loss within the right diet plan. 1000lories, whether split up in to two meals or one will wind up as 900 calories. We then have to discuss nutrient aborption rates and storage but this was ignored completely. While a fasting diet may prime the body to absorb more nutrients in a sitting given hormonal responses, a frequent meal plan will not. That said, various macros ellicit different TEF responses and this is one angle of high protein ingestion.You can eliminate total calories by choosing the right foods to stoke your metabolism through TEF. And studies were posted to show this. You simply ignored the context to disregard them.

And ftr I edited your post for the Berardi link. I can't post them yet.

 

[TexasGuy]

What will be that guy's name?

Piston Honda

 

[bla55]

Oh for crying out loud, we are back to this?

Jesus... Either prove one needs breakfast or move on. Macros to be hit don't require a breakfast to be accomplished. Suggesting he skips breakfast in no way shape or form infers that he should reduce caloric intake.

 

[TexasGuy]

Oh for crying out loud, we are back to this?

Jesus... Either prove one needs breakfast or move on. Macros to be hit don't require a breakfast to be accomplished. Suggesting he skips breakfast in no way shape or form infers that he should reduce caloric intake.

For crying out loud! We are back to suggesting one diets protocols for another diets application?

 

[Rodja]

I love how you are dodging the question! Clearly you are taking my comment out of context. Of course steroids will skew results, this is why they are used. There is a difference between steroids skewing results and nullifying a diet altogether, which was the inference from Bla.

Yes, LG proponents have been providing peer reviewed information to support their claims while ignoring the same when it doesn't apply though the conversation spilled over to multiple threads and it's hard to keep it all organized. I realize Berardi has an IF protocol out there. As the conversation morphed from an evident miscommunication over Celorza's post to a defense of LG and attack of frequent, high protein meals, my stance was that multiple diets work through various metabolic pathways, including IF protocols and I said so many times in many threads on this topic.

The problem is that people attacking a diet that has been shown to be effective for decades from the pros to the joes argued one diets principles as if they are the universal dietary guideline. And they are not.

Let me state directly, IF protocols work. Applying Diet Y principles to Diet X isn't a good idea and neither is arguing from that stand point. You can not prove frequent, high protein meals are ineffective because they are, even if a white coat hasn't put it on paper.

And yes, nutrient timing and TEF are applicable to metabolism and fat loss within the right diet plan. 1000lories, whether split up in to two meals or one will wind up as 900 calories. We then have to discuss nutrient aborption rates and storage but this was ignored completely. While a fasting diet may prime the body to absorb more nutrients in a sitting given hormonal responses, a frequent meal plan will not. That said, various macros ellicit different TEF responses and this is one angle of high protein ingestion.You can eliminate total calories by choosing the right foods to stoke your metabolism through TEF. And studies were posted to show this. You simply ignored the context to disregard them.

And ftr I edited your post for the Berardi link. I can't post them yet.

Let's see...

You already had ad hominem, red herring, and burden of proof. Now, you can add straw man and arguing in a circle to your list of BS arguments.

However, I'll start with a simple science lesson for you since you really seem to be struggling in this department. AAS will skew results; this is not a point of debate, but you fail to realize that this skewing of results completely nullifies any application to the lay population as they push the boundaries beyond what is possible under non-PED usage conditions. My personal usage or non-usage has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

You also seem to think that meal frequency has something to do with macronutrient breakdown as evidenced by your linking of meal frequency and high protein consumption, which, again, is not something that has been said along the way. High protein consumption is not the same thing as frequent feedings despite your attempts to link them. This protein consumption and subsequent TEF has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread. At no point was macronutrient breakdown ever discussed until you decided to throw the thread in that direction in an attempt to use that to prove the merits of frequent feedings. In addition, you seem to really misunderstand nutrient timing and it's application to the non-endurance athlete population and how using these principles as attestation for your position actually works against you, but insulin sensitivity, GLUT-4, etc. would again steer the conversation into a different direction beyond the scope of the thread.

 

[Jiigzz]

:wave2:

I thought we settled this already

 

[TexasGuy]

:wave2:

I thought we settled this already

Well we never met the initial point of contention in this original thread and instead are using deflection and aversion to let tangents take center stage where diet a is still being applied to diet b. And we are jumping contexts to dodge questions whose answers would show an ironic view of steroids.


Instead of addressing diets utilizing TEF values and frequent meals, we largely ignored them as irrelevant to leangains, which of course they are. But then we bring them up from left field to win an argument about leangains, effectively recycling the application of Y to X on Y's terms though nobody is denying that leangains works.

 

[Rodja]

Well we never met the initial point of contention in this original thread and instead are using deflection and aversion to let tangents take center stage where diet a is still being applied to diet b. And we are jumping contexts to dodge questions whose answers would show an ironic view of steroids.


Instead of addressing diets utilizing TEF values and frequent meals, we largely ignored them as irrelevant to leangains, which of course they are. But then we bring them up from left field to win an argument about leangains, effectively recycling the application of Y to X on Y's terms though nobody is denying that leangains works.

Subtle callout from the guy who can't form a coherent and logical argument.

 

[TexasGuy]

Subtle callout from the guy who can't form a coherent and logical argument.

Something like that. On an ever shifting premise, there is no logical argument. Don't play dumb.

 

[Rodja]

Something like that. On an ever shifting premise, there is no logical argument. Don't play dumb.

The entire premise is the lack of need for frequent feedings followed by pages of you spewing bull**** and logical fallacies.

 

[bpmartyr]

Texasguy, you argue like my wife. That is not a compliment.

 

[TexasGuy]

Ladies and gentlemen, Leangains is the only diet you will ever need. Throw out all the rest and the corresponding success along with them. Buy Rodja a chicken dinner but not eggs at breakfast.

Absolutely do not do what people who have accomplished what you want to accomplish did to accomplish it. Just fast and use PES products. This is the magic equation we've all been seeking. Nevermind the myriad of variables and real world success found with other diets. Actual results don't matter.

As far as logical fallacies are concerned, a shifting premise isn't a legitimate debate platform to begin with.

Oh ya, if you follow a low carb/high fat diet, don't be afraid to add rice, oatmeal, dinner roles and honey buns to your daily meal plans, evidence supports high carb diets too so it's cool. Studies show high carb diets won't necessarily make you fat and that's all you need to know. We will ignore application altogether though, because that would be an illogical tangent.

Leangains! Leangains! Leangains!

 

[vidapreta]

Ladies and gentlemen, Leangains is the only diet you will ever need. Throw out all the rest and the corresponding success along with them. Buy Rodja a chicken dinner but not eggs at breakfast.

Absolutely do not do what people who have accomplished what you want to accomplish did to accomplish it. Just fast and use PES products. This is the magic equation we've all been seeking. Nevermind the myriad of variables and real world success found with other diets. Actual results don't matter.

As far as logical fallacies are concerned, a shifting premise isn't a legitimate debate platform to begin with.

Oh ya, if you follow a low carb/high fat diet, don't be afraid to add rice, oatmeal, dinner roles and honey buns to your daily meal plans, evidence supports high carb diets too so it's cool. Studies show high carb diets won't necessarily make you fat and that's all you need to know. We will ignore application altogether though, because that would be an illogical tangent.

Leangains! Leangains! Leangains!

I'll follow into the depths of Hell

 

[bla55]

Ladies and gentlemen, Leangains is the only diet you will ever need. Throw out all the rest and the corresponding success along with them. Buy Rodja a chicken dinner but not eggs at breakfast.

Absolutely do not do what people who have accomplished what you want to accomplish did to accomplish it. Just fast and use PES products. This is the magic equation we've all been seeking. Nevermind the myriad of variables and real world success found with other diets. Actual results don't matter.

As far as logical fallacies are concerned, a shifting premise isn't a legitimate debate platform to begin with.

Oh ya, if you follow a low carb/high fat diet, don't be afraid to add rice, oatmeal, dinner roles and honey buns to your daily meal plans, evidence supports high carb diets too so it's cool. Studies show high carb diets won't necessarily make you fat and that's all you need to know. We will ignore application altogether though, because that would be an illogical tangent.

Leangains! Leangains! Leangains!

Please let me know where it is said that everyone must skip breakfast or follow leangains... If not mistaken Rodja doesn't even follow leangains, but carb-backload instead. Which is an intermittent fasting diet, but not leangains.

Someone saying that breakfast is not needed and can be skipped =/= telling everyone to skip breakfast. Do whatever you want, just drop the bullsh1t that everyone must have breakfast and eat every 3 hours, since it is a debunked myth. That is all.

And would you like some cheese to go with that?

 

[Celorza]

You see what's funny about this thread, is that I earned a fan club for one day of acting like this...and this guy has been doing so for the past week and nope, no groupies yet.

Fridge, you are doing something wrong bro!

 

[Sean1332]

You see what's funny about this thread, is that I earned a fan club for one day of acting like this...and this guy has been doing so for the past week and nope, no groupies yet.

Fridge, you are doing something wrong bro!

shall I make a fake account and make weird threads about him like your admirer does?

 

[Jiigzz]

Something like that. On an ever shifting premise, there is no logical argument. Don't play dumb.

I think you have missed the point. People called you out because you stated that your way of eating is the end all be all, or at least made it seem that way. Rodja pointed out that OTHER diets not focused on meal timing are just as effective which is in tune with current research. Prior research indicated that meal timing was a huge factor but that is simply because that was the breakthrough of the time. New research expanded on this and points out that the body doesnt require constant feeding to attain results it all comesdown to "if it fits your macros".

Does that mean that the prior research was wrong? Of course not. But its not the only way to do things. You then went on a tangent with TEF which is largely irrelevant to the discussion and that study you posted was for regular vs. Irregular feedings..

And unless i missed it, noones been promoting PES products or really even LG for that matter, LG is just an example of one diet which doesnt follow the old BB methods

 

[Celorza]

shall I make a fake account and make weird threads about him like your admirer does?

There's also the classy following around in almost every post I do and trying to criticize it with a bunch of ad hominem and no real commentary on the info I write.

But whatever gives you the best erecSean hahaha.

 

[Type O Hero]

Thanks! And do u think maybe some muscle milk as a meal replacement would work or no?

For a drinkable meal...

1.) Grind up 0.5 cups (or more) old fashioned style oats in a blender or an electronic coffee grinder, or whatever.
2.) Add about 1-1.5 cups of milk (depending on the consistency you want, may have to experiment)
3.) Add a banana
4.) Add a scoop of protein powder (a blend works best, but I mostly just use whey)... Chocolate works best
5.) Optional: Add natural PB for more calories

Tinkering with this general formula you can make a really nice tasting shake with a lot of calories. Mine, on average, run about 550-600 calories, but you could easily make it 1000 calories if you really wanted to. The best thing is, while it would easily take 10 minutes to eat a whole food meal of 1000 calories, you can drink it in about 30 seconds or less.

I prefer these shakes for breakfast rather than later in the day.

 

[bla55]

I think you have missed the point. People called you out because you stated that your way of eating is the end all be all, or at least made it seem that way. Rodja pointed out that OTHER diets not focused on meal timing are just as effective which is in tune with current research. Prior research indicated that meal timing was a huge factor but that is simply because that was the breakthrough of the time. New research expanded on this and points out that the body doesnt require constant feeding to attain results it all comesdown to "if it fits your macros".

Does that mean that the prior research was wrong? Of course not. But its not the only way to do things. You then went on a tangent with TEF which is largely irrelevant to the discussion and that study you posted was for regular vs. Irregular feedings..

And unless i missed it, noones been promoting PES products or really even LG for that matter, LG is just an example of one diet which doesnt follow the old BB methods

QFE

Not to mention the random beating that the poor dead horse gets with indirect and passive blows to anyone who won't agree that the old style BB diet is the way to go. Or the introduction of Steroids as a form of disqualification of other diets.

 

[GeraldNY181]

Try to pack more calories into the meals you do eat and then you wont have to worry about squeezing in extra meals your not hungry for...