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    Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Still have yet to see the scientific evidence that supports "eating more often will increase your metabolism"
    I won't spell it out for you but I'll give you a hint, one such study was posted above. You will need to use some deductive reasoning of your own, but not really, it's pretty black and white.

    F*%&, I posted again! I hate the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Ok, one last post and you can take it away. Every one of your "points" was countered by demonstrated research that you then pull out of the context that was the response to your question and go on to state that the studies I did post are simply wrong... because you said so. Sounds legit. In context you are not only off topic but rambling. The first quoted study is very clear, the second brings in to question the ability to absorb nutrients at various levels of intake which creates a larger equation than a simple ratio and as stated the third demonstrates that various foods yield varying net calories upon consumption. Altogether the studies show that consistent meals provide a significant thermal effect over fasting based diets and that when utilized intelligently nutritient timing absolutely can be used to manipulate the amount of net calories absorbed through the thermal effect of digesting the food itself.

    Secondly, as stated, I had never heard of your company though I have to take that back. I have heard of erase. I used Novadex XT while it was available a couple times but did hear a few good things about erase as well. Either way, I'm not trying to stab at PES. I have no interest in it. I do not represent any supplement companies and could care less. I do think you are off base and if you are chosen to represent a company but don't believe in nutrient timing, I don't believe in the principles you represent and wouldn't spend money with you, but again, that's just me and nothing personal.

    Thirdly and oddly, though you don't believe in nutrient timing or mainitaining a stream of aminos, the diet you are pushing is not only based on nutrient timing but recommends BCAA's during the fasting intervals. You make an interesting study in and of yourself. It's like you're arguing with your own diet. I don't get it. But hey, nutrient timing and keeping a stream of aminos running through you is working so...

    And in context, the OP shouldn't be skipping meals when his problem is fitting enough macros in. Even intermittent fasting relies on a pre-determined level of macros. And nutrient timing and a steady stream of aminos. Your whole premise arguing all of that is just weird and off base to begin with.

    Now for real, I'm out.
    Did you actually read the entire studies that you posted or just portions of them? The first study actually disproves the main premise of the importance of increased meal frequency, which is an increase in actual metabolism and RMR. The second just shows the ratio of TEF and the third is a COMPLETELY different topic altogether of macros, not meal frequency. Your feeble attempt to stitch them together even though there isn't any similarity between them other than nutrition to support your position is very weak. I'm not sure where you learned how to decipher research, but you either need to request your money back or didn't pay attention. The concept of nutrient timing based upon Ivy's research is done of endurance athletes with protocols of intentional glycogen depletion. Is that relevant to your training at all? I didn't think so. At no point did I promote the idea of IF for the OP, which further demonstrates your inability to derive information. I merely pointed out the dogmatic rhetoric that is constantly, and ignorantly, pounded over and over again. Now, if you actually want to post something showing a favorable shift in body composition based upon increased meal frequency, the go ahead and do so. Nothing that you posted demonstrated this effect and/or promotes the idea of increasing meal frequency as a means of metabolic boosting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I won't spell it out for you but I'll give you a hint, one such study was posted above. You will need to use some deductive reasoning of your own, but not really, it's pretty black and white.

    F*%&, I posted again! I hate the internet.
    You posted earlier that the OP should eat breakfast because he is trying to get in more macros; yet ive always read that missing meals is the cause for overeating and therefore leads to obesity.

    In all seriousness listen to what Rodjas saying; new research shows us that as long as macro goals are met (in however many meals this takes), the outcome will invariably be the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You posted earlier that the OP should eat breakfast because he is trying to get in more macros; yet ive always read that missing meals is the cause for overeating and therefore leads to obesity.

    In all seriousness listen to what Rodjas saying; new research shows us that as long as macro goals are met (in however many meals this takes), the outcome will invariably be the same.
    A diet based on Macro-Nutrient and/or kCaloric allotment (depending on the goal, strength or physique) = win.

    'Nuff said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You posted earlier that the OP should eat breakfast because he is trying to get in more macros; yet ive always read that missing meals is the cause for overeating and therefore leads to obesity.

    In all seriousness listen to what Rodjas saying; new research shows us that as long as macro goals are met (in however many meals this takes), the outcome will invariably be the same.
    Yeah well in that case IF is the fast track to fata$$!

    As I said a few times, I don't discount the research or anecdotal evidence that IF can help people achieve physiques they want, I'm also not going to discount time tested methods. As far as research is concerned, there is basically all of bodybuilding prior to 2010 or so. Call it dogma but sitting down and eating 300 grams of protein in one meal won't have the same effect as eating the same amount over 5-6 meals. Most of it would just turn to poo. But nutrient absorption is another topic so we can't talk about that even though many facets tie in together where nutrition and physiques are concerned.


    Speaking of anecdotal, how many fad diets with purported research have turned belly up? Oodles. I have high hopes for IF but as mentioned, at best it will find it's permanent resting place among a smattering of other tried and true diets as time moves on. Plus it totally utilizes nutrient timing and a constant barrage of aminos so I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. Or how it pertains to the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yeah well in that case IF is the fast track to fata$$!

    As I said a few times, I don't discount the research or anecdotal evidence that IF can help people achieve physiques they want, I'm also not going to discount time tested methods. As far as research is concerned, there is basically all of bodybuilding prior to 2010 or so. Call it dogma but sitting down and eating 300 grams of protein in one meal won't have the same effect as eating the same amount over 5-6 meals. Most of it would just turn to poo. But nutrient absorption is another topic so we can't talk about that even though many facets tie in together where nutrition and physiques are concerned.


    Speaking of anecdotal, how many fad diets with purported research have turned belly up? Oodles. I have high hopes for IF but as mentioned, at best it will find it's permanent resting place among a smattering of other tried and true diets as time moves on. Plus it totally utilizes nutrient timing and a constant barrage of aminos so I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. Or how it pertains to the OP.
    unless you are 300 lbs or you are on a really good AAS c0cktail, why in the hell would you eat 300g of protein? Worse...why in the almighty-lord-of-iron's name would you think you absorb 300g of protein over 6 meals!? 1g/lb of LBM is more than enough...please just stop discussing this subject, you are just dig a deeper grave of disbelief upon your posts !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    unless you are 300 lbs or you are on a really good AAS c0cktail, why in the hell would you eat 300g of protein? Worse...why in the almighty-lord-of-iron's name would you think you absorb 300g of protein over 6 meals!? 1g/lb of LBM is more than enough...please just stop discussing this subject, you are just dig a deeper grave of disbelief upon your posts !!!
    Because steak is delicious.

    When I want bulking advice from a 146 lb dude, I'll ask for it. I don't know anybody with any appreciable mass that eats 1 or less gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

    Speaking of studies, every study I've read showing proteins effect on building mass doesn't come close to mimicing the effort bodybuilding requires in the gym.

    When you break the buck fifty club with all this nonsense, let me know.

    "Yeah, but I'm short..." Still small.

    Maybe this website is not quite the collection of anabolic minds as it seems, yuppie minds sounds more accurate after this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yeah well in that case IF is the fast track to fata$$!

    As I said a few times, I don't discount the research or anecdotal evidence that IF can help people achieve physiques they want, I'm also not going to discount time tested methods. As far as research is concerned, there is basically all of bodybuilding prior to 2010 or so. Call it dogma but sitting down and eating 300 grams of protein in one meal won't have the same effect as eating the same amount over 5-6 meals. Most of it would just turn to poo. But nutrient absorption is another topic so we can't talk about that even though many facets tie in together where nutrition and physiques are concerned.


    Speaking of anecdotal, how many fad diets with purported research have turned belly up? Oodles. I have high hopes for IF but as mentioned, at best it will find it's permanent resting place among a smattering of other tried and true diets as time moves on. Plus it totally utilizes nutrient timing and a constant barrage of aminos so I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. Or how it pertains to the OP.
    I didn't realize that BB'ing counts as peer-reviewed research...

    Fasting protocols have been around for well over a decade, which is far from a fad. You sure as hell make a lot of claims without anything to back them up.
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    The reading comprehension is strong ITT.
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    Ok fine, you win the whole internet Rodja.

    It still doesn't make any sense at all to tell a guy struggling to hit his macros to skip meals but you can be the winner. All while you time your nutrients and keep the aminos flowing against the best advice of modern research.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Ok fine, you win the whole internet Rodja.

    It still doesn't make any sense at all to tell a guy struggling to hit his macros to skip meals but you can be the winner. All while you time your nutrients and keep the aminos flowing against the best advice of modern research.
    Where did I tell the OP to skip meals and where is this "modern research?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Because steak is delicious.

    When I want bulking advice from a 146 lb dude, I'll ask for it. I don't know anybody with any appreciable mass that eats 1 or less gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

    Speaking of studies, every study I've read showing proteins effect on building mass doesn't come close to mimicing the effort bodybuilding requires in the gym.

    When you break the buck fifty club with all this nonsense, let me know.

    "Yeah, but I'm short..." Still small.

    Maybe this website is not quite the collection of anabolic minds as it seems, yuppie minds sounds more accurate after this thread.
    Lol post up your totals, real please and vids if possible...if I am lb for lb stronger than you maybe you will learn the difference between training for aesthetics and size, and training for strength and powerlifting. Anyhow, I am still waiting for your research and articles proving me wrong, when you post them and prove me wrong (if possible, on this matter I mean) then come to me with your higher than thou attitude...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Lol post up your totals, real please and vids if possible...if I am lb for lb stronger than you maybe you will learn the difference between training for aesthetics and size, and training for strength and powerlifting. Anyhow, I am still waiting for your research and articles proving me wrong, when you post them and prove me wrong (if possible, on this matter I mean) then come to me with your higher than thou attitude...
    I don't give a piss about your ratios. My lifts are in my profile and no, I won't go to the trouble of planning out max lifts on film for you, sorry. And in B4 "you're probably BSing then"... I realize that gives you room to win some of the internets from Rodja in your mind.

    This has turned in to a weird pissing contest though, with two dudes who should seem to know better than to discount methodologies that have been building impressive physiques and aiding strength athletes for decades.

    Anyways, here is a link to an article by Dr. John Berardi, I assume you've heard of him. If not, you can learn about him on the site.

    No, this is not a peer reviewed study straight out of pubmed, but if you can read an article on the merits of high protein intake from an author much more accomplished and knowledgeable than you with an open mind, you might learn something. Remove the unnecessary spacing.

    Well, AM says I have to have 150 posts before I can post links. Google "precision nutrition limit protein to 20 grams per meal?" Or I can try PMing the link if you aren't just being a smartass know it all.

    Interestingly, it touches on a handful of talking points in this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I don't give a piss about your ratios. My lifts are in my profile and no, I won't go to the trouble of planning out max lifts on film for you, sorry. And in B4 "you're probably BSing then"... I realize that gives you room to win some of the internets from Rodja in your mind.

    This has turned in to a weird pissing contest though, with two dudes who should seem to know better than to discount methodologies that have been building impressive physiques and aiding strength athletes for decades.

    Anyways, here is a link to an article by Dr. John Berardi, I assume you've heard of him. If not, you can learn about him on the site.

    No, this is not a peer reviewed study straight out of pubmed, but if you can read an article on the merits of high protein intake from an author much more accomplished and knowledgeable than you with an open mind, you might learn something. Remove the unnecessary spacing.

    Well, AM says I have to have 150 posts before I can post links. Google "precision nutrition limit protein to 20 grams per meal?" Or I can try PMing the link if you aren't just being a smartass know it all.

    Interestingly, it touches on a handful of talking points in this thread.
    You started it with the know it all attitude, and brought no real studies to the table. I'll read the article don't worry, for now just know that you come here trying to bash something we respect here in AM...SCIENCE. Say what you want about me, in the end Idc at all, but dude...messing with Rodja, who does nothing but help people? Who actually brings articles to the table, who has a career on this and who is a competitive power lifter? Bro you are kinda out of line. I don't doubt you are a someone in your community, but if you wanna be someone here at least just post up some articles and real science before doing blatant claims...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    You started it with the know it all attitude, and brought no real studies to the table. I'll read the article don't worry, for now just know that you come here trying to bash something we respect here in AM...SCIENCE. Say what you want about me, in the end Idc at all, but dude...messing with Rodja, who does nothing but help people? Who actually brings articles to the table, who has a career on this and who is a competitive power lifter? Bro you are kinda out of line. I don't doubt you are a someone in your community, but if you wanna be someone here at least just post up some articles and real science before doing blatant claims...
    I've said from the beginning IF works, though I doubt its dominance. You have been denying essentially every lifting accomplishment achieved outside of a lifter utilizing IF protocols for peer reviewed science, which I did post.

    Rodja came out of left field, off topic and pretty well self contradictory. His own diet utilizes nutrient timing and a steady stream of aminos and he spent two pages tellimg me diets based on nutrient timing are inferior because he doesn't feel enough peer reviewed studies exist to legitimize them.

    I'm not going to kowtow bull**** to fit in to a forum. I will read, post and take legitimately helpful advice and insight to heart though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I've said from the beginning IF works, though I doubt its dominance. You have been denying essentially every lifting accomplishment achieved outside of a lifter utilizing IF protocols for peer reviewed science, which I did post.Rodja came out of left field, off topic and pretty well self contradictory. His own diet utilizes nutrient timing and a steady stream of aminos and he spent two pages tellimg me diets based on nutrient timing are inferior because he doesn't feel enough peer reviewed studies exist to legitimize them.I'm not going to kowtow bull**** to fit in to a forum. I will read, post and take legitimately helpful advice and insight to heart though.
    Funny how you somehow inferred my dietary protocol out of all of this as you obviously have ZERO clue as to how I actually eat for my goals. You have been spouting off about how the science supports your position, but have yet to produce a single article showing such. Your etiolated attempts to straw man my position are entirely asinine as you have failed miserably to understand my entire premise that meal frequency has an insignificant impact upon metabolism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yeah well in that case IF is the fast track to fata$$!

    As I said a few times, I don't discount the research or anecdotal evidence that IF can help people achieve physiques they want, I'm also not going to discount time tested methods. As far as research is concerned, there is basically all of bodybuilding prior to 2010 or so. Call it dogma but sitting down and eating 300 grams of protein in one meal won't have the same effect as eating the same amount over 5-6 meals. Most of it would just turn to poo. But nutrient absorption is another topic so we can't talk about that even though many facets tie in together where nutrition and physiques are concerned.


    Speaking of anecdotal, how many fad diets with purported research have turned belly up? Oodles. I have high hopes for IF but as mentioned, at best it will find it's permanent resting place among a smattering of other tried and true diets as time moves on. Plus it totally utilizes nutrient timing and a constant barrage of aminos so I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. Or how it pertains to the OP.
    I do IF, I eat it all in 2 meals a day and I poop way less than when I made 6 meals a day. N=1, but don't see how my "nutrient" absorption has gone down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yeah well in that case IF is the fast track to fata$$!

    As I said a few times, I don't discount the research or anecdotal evidence that IF can help people achieve physiques they want, I'm also not going to discount time tested methods. As far as research is concerned, there is basically all of bodybuilding prior to 2010 or so. Call it dogma but sitting down and eating 300 grams of protein in one meal won't have the same effect as eating the same amount over 5-6 meals. Most of it would just turn to poo. But nutrient absorption is another topic so we can't talk about that even though many facets tie in together where nutrition and physiques are concerned.


    Speaking of anecdotal, how many fad diets with purported research have turned belly up? Oodles. I have high hopes for IF but as mentioned, at best it will find it's permanent resting place among a smattering of other tried and true diets as time moves on. Plus it totally utilizes nutrient timing and a constant barrage of aminos so I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. Or how it pertains to the OP.
    You misinterpret my post; bodybuilding in of itself and the practices taught within the pro community, particulary those referenced inb BB magizines are by no means legitimate sources for you to base your diet off; how can you be certain that they actually practice what they preach? And, had they known about IF or that meal frequency is of no concern, would there results reflect this new approach? Yes, of course 6 meals/ day with a steady stream of aminos works, simply because they are reaching their macronutrient goals. But that is not a means to an end.

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    Sub'd for ppl ridin coat tails

    Finally caught up and what a debate!

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    Re: Meals


    Looks like I missed all the fun
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Looks like I missed all the fun
    Pretty much.
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    facepalm* you need breakfast its important so you dont go in a catabolic state im shocked by all answers this every 2 hours eating is so you can fuel your body but if you have problem getting meals just keep trying i had same and i got used to it in end
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathead249
    facepalm* you need breakfast its important so you dont go in a catabolic state im shocked by all answers this every 2 hours eating is so you can fuel your body but if you have problem getting meals just keep trying i had same and i got used to it in end
    Did you not read some of the above posts that specify studies showing some of these old myths are just that! Have you ever heard of lean gains style dieting or the warrior diet?? I might suggest not being so close minded as there area my ways people diet that all seem to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000

    Did you not read some of the above posts that specify studies showing some of these old myths are just that! Have you ever heard of lean gains style dieting or the warrior diet?? I might suggest not being so close minded as there area my ways people diet that all seem to work.
    *many ways people diet that all seem to work. Damn auto correct lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Did you not read some of the above posts that specify studies showing some of these old myths are just that! Have you ever heard of lean gains style dieting or the warrior diet?? I might suggest not being so close minded as there area my ways people diet that all seem to work.
    That whole conversation was off topic though. What became a multi-thread argument was basically that yes, various diets work in their own unique ways. No one was actually disagreeing, well, not in the end. A few from the leangains camp initially put all other diets on the defensive as if leangains is some magic wonder diet like all the rest before it and the diets to come after were and will be purported. We then went down a few tangents that pulled the conversation even further from the issue at hand and spread the argument out in to a largely incoherent mishmash of misapplied ideologies across the boards.

    The real, initial problem was people were arguing X diet vs. Y diet on X diets terms.

    The OP has a diet of some sort. It requires an intake of macronutrients that he was having trouble downing in a given day. Someone inferred that it would be ok if he just skipped breakfast, which effectively applied X diet methodologies to Y diet application. This is just stupid and in the actual context the studies are useless. They don't apply.

    Low Fat/High Carb diets work too if utilized correctly. So do Low Carb/High Fat diets. You sure as **** wouldn't recommend a guy on a low carb diet to eat pasta and rice three or four times a day along with his official diet plan. All the studies showing a high carb diet (comparatively) would benefit from this carb intake would support his pasta but we can deduce that the incorrect application is irrelevent.

    Same difference in this thread. If you're having trouble getting a 650 calorie meal down, good luck just waiting a few hours and scarfing 1,300 calories to make up for it, especially when your diet may very well be designed to take advantage of nutrient timing and macro ratio benefits drawing from a TEF scale.
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    all i saw was someone say skip breakfast but sounded like it got out of hand i agree some types of diets work for diffrent poeple i guess it what poeples goals are to everybody elses
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    I never eat breakfast, skipping breakfast DOES NOT mean you become catabolic
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    agreed with tech. I think breakfast should be treated as any other meal. if I miss lunch, my body doesn't become catabolic
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    Touche'
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy

    That whole conversation was off topic though. What became a multi-thread argument was basically that yes, various diets work in their own unique ways. No one was actually disagreeing, well, not in the end. A few from the leangains camp initially put all other diets on the defensive as if leangains is some magic wonder diet like all the rest before it and the diets to come after were and will be purported. We then went down a few tangents that pulled the conversation even further from the issue at hand and spread the argument out in to a largely incoherent mishmash of misapplied ideologies across the boards.

    The real, initial problem was people were arguing X diet vs. Y diet on X diets terms.

    The OP has a diet of some sort. It requires an intake of macronutrients that he was having trouble downing in a given day. Someone inferred that it would be ok if he just skipped breakfast, which effectively applied X diet methodologies to Y diet application. This is just stupid and in the actual context the studies are useless. They don't apply.

    Low Fat/High Carb diets work too if utilized correctly. So do Low Carb/High Fat diets. You sure as **** wouldn't recommend a guy on a low carb diet to eat pasta and rice three or four times a day along with his official diet plan. All the studies showing a high carb diet (comparatively) would benefit from this carb intake would support his pasta but we can deduce that the incorrect application is irrelevent.

    Same difference in this thread. If you're having trouble getting a 650 calorie meal down, good luck just waiting a few hours and scarfing 1,300 calories to make up for it, especially when your diet may very well be designed to take advantage of nutrient timing and macro ratio benefits drawing from a TEF scale.
    Yes and while I do agree with some thing both parties rambled on about if you look at the post I was replying to the guy said breakfast is a must or you go catabolic.... The reason I brought lean gains and the warrior diet into the conversation was to point out that people don't need to have breakfast, or lunch for that matter. Do you think that people go catabolic after an 8 hour fast? If this was the case then these fasting diets would not be so popular and people wouldn't get the results that they get. Fasting type diets are not for me due to my work schedule but I do utilize the fasted training side of it. Does that mean im catabolic on a daily basis? No. All I was saying is that he should be a bit more open minded as a lot of different methods work. Different strokes for different folks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Yes and while I do agree with some thing both parties rambled on about if you look at the post I was replying to the guy said breakfast is a must or you go catabolic.... The reason I brought lean gains and the warrior diet into the conversation was to point out that people don't need to have breakfast, or lunch for that matter. Do you think that people go catabolic after an 8 hour fast? If this was the case then these fasting diets would not be so popular and people wouldn't get the results that they get. Fasting type diets are not for me due to my work schedule but I do utilize the fasted training side of it. Does that mean im catabolic on a daily basis? No. All I was saying is that he should be a bit more open minded as a lot of different methods work. Different strokes for different folks
    And as a stand alone opinion yours is fine. Let's not confuse X and Y again is what I'm saying. And catabolism isn't all or nothing. Unless you're running lab panels daily you have no idea if you're catabolic or not. You make up for it later but may be running at 70% efficiency + or - 30 for all you know. I'll take my sure bet on anabolism personally but alas, to each his own. Just food for thought. Not interested in arguing X against Y on Y's premise again. Plus I almost forgot about the recommended bcaa and whey supplementation anyways. A rose by another name...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy
    And as a stand alone opinion yours is fine. Let's not confuse X and Y again is what I'm saying. And catabolism isn't all or nothing. Unless you're running lab panels daily you have no idea if you're catabolic or not. You make up for it later but may be running at 70% efficiency + or - 30 for all you know. I'll take my sure bet on anabolism personally but alas, to each his own. Just food for thought. Not interested in arguing X against Y on Y's premise again. Plus I almost forgot about the recommended bcaa and whey supplementation anyways. A rose by another name...
    Im not confusing x and y again I was simply stating that you won't go into a catabolic state after fasting for 8 hours or 10 hour or even 20 hours.... I'm not saying anything about x or y diet types I'm saying that just because he's been told to follow x type dieting doesn't mean it's the only way to do things.
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    Re: Meals


    There are recent studies showing protein specifically in two to three hour feedings is advantageous to the bodybuilder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    There are recent studies showing protein specifically in two to three hour feedings is advantageous to the bodybuilder.

    - Valdez
    Link?
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    Re: Meals


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Link?
    Yea I might fall asleep first lol I think zirred linked it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post

    Yea I might fall asleep first lol I think zirred linked it

    - Valdez
    I haven't seen it.
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    Re: Meals


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I haven't seen it.
    I just looked I'll find it...later I'm going to bed now. Broncos tomo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Im not confusing x and y again I was simply stating that you won't go into a catabolic state after fasting for 8 hours or 10 hour or even 20 hours.... I'm not saying anything about x or y diet types I'm saying that just because he's been told to follow x type dieting doesn't mean it's the only way to do things.
    You are suggesting a Y solution to an X problem for the record. OP has trouble hitting certain macros and calories within his allotted time and skipping a meal in his situation is dumb, period. So is diet hopping. See one through within a selected goal period or you will basically not be dieting at all by jumping from strategy to strategy. Diets don't work like buffet lines. Next time he wants to gain, he can investigate alternatives so long as he sticks to which ever chosen methodology until his goal is achieved. Otherwise it goes back to High Fat/Low Carb vs Low Carb/High Fat. Both work but not together.

    Back off topic though, I posted an article referencing a number of studies by Layne Norton, I believe it was in this thread but can find it again if not. You may take his interpretations at face value or look up his references, understand them all in tandem on your own and come up with your summary. Just make sure it's accurate.

    He shows that regular, frequent meals high in protein do elevate protein synthesis, as do fasting based diets over a significant number of hours, which would seem to negate a need for eating every two or three. However, he was able to show that while in an anabolic state, ingesting protein either by food or supplementation in frequent intervals did spike protein synthesis over and above the elevated rate propagated by a variety of diets, effectively demonstrating that frequent, multiple meals per day is more beneficial than fasting where protein synthesis and essentially anabolism are concerned.

    I italicized more because yes, multiple dieting strategies work. The problem I have with IF and the Warrior Diet is that catabolism and anabolism are not black and white issues.

    I can't draw pictures here unfortunately but imagine a color scale of black on one end and white on the other, with shades of grey going from darker to lighter between.

    Black is catabolic, white is anabolic. You can make gains in the light grey area and you can gain in the darkest of grey. Gaining in the lighter shade lends itself to greater protein synthesis, however. When I'm done lifting, I want my body to be building at as close to 100% optimally as possible. According to the studies used in the article, regular, frequent intake of meals or supplements high in protein allow this to happen given an elevated rate of protein synthesis plus an extra boost for those who do consume food every 3 hours or so.

    Just because you may get 10 lbs stronger on the squat every week (or in a longer interval depending on your experience) doesn't mean you are "dialed in" when you could be gaining 15-20 pounds instead. It's a deceptive gain and according to the studies could be better.

    And deviating from the black and white world of lab coats to the grey area of real world application, I know when I don't eat 5-6 meals a day, and especially breakfast before my morning lifting sessions, I can not train at the same intensity or recover at the same rate. Training intensity and recovery are like the golden goose to Jack's beanstalk in bodybuilding and limiting (not totally stunting, of course) both is ridiculous. Yeah people say they get used to it but I would like to see an honest outline and breakdown of their routine and intensity. Not what they should be doing, but what actually happens. I just don't see snatches, cleans, heavy deads and presses or high volume of the same at 100%. And we are talking about bulking so your intensity better be high. I realized I just opened a can of worms to purely subjective and defensive bull**** "you don't know me" type arguments but take an honest look.

    Anecdotally, the kings of mass building don't utilize IF or Warrior diets, at least not as a staple for bulking which is what this forum is about. You wouldn't tell Kai Greene or Jay Cutler how to bulk any more than you would tell LeBron James how to play basketball. Or maybe you would, I don't know. And yeah, I get that people don't all want to look like that, but if a bulk is your goal you want to gain quality mass as fast as possible, universally. Your upper limit is just lower than theirs. Getting to yours should be done as effectively and efficiently as possible, which, again, is the problem I have with IF and especially Warrior Diets. At least one IF diet, Leangains, recommends whey and bcaa intake between meals while pretending to be a fasting diet. It'll put you farther up the grey scale to white.
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    LG does NOT promote whey between meals. You've said that over and over yet it is not close to true. Yes, BCAA is recommended, but not whey between meals. Whey can be used as an alternative to BCAA pre-training, but not haphazardly between meals.

    No person on this board is competing at the IFBB level and, elephant in the room, copious doses of AAS vastly change the equation on protein synthesis. Using the elite of any sport will not translate to the lay person as we're not programmed in the same manner as them when it comes to talent and genetics. Training and using the same AAS cocktail like Ronnie or Chuck Vogelpohl will not make you into them or even put you in the same league as them. This is the main reason that the applicability of professionals of any sport has little bearing on the overwhelming majority of the population.

    To address the IF and intensity (granted n=1 here), while I implemented this particular diet, I added over 200lbs to my total while losing approximately 15-18lbs in a period of about 6 months. The only reason I deviated from it was that my training schedule changed and my bench and squat/deadlift sessions wouldn't end until after my feeding window was open and my geared sessions would take close to 2-3 hours.
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