What car would YOU get?

[Mulletsoldier]

Was that weird? Let's cuddle awkwardly.

 

[Jayhawkk]

We'll turn on the air conditionining to make it seem legit.

 

[pistonpump]

mullet how much did you say you paid for that benz? Better be cheap as hell cuz that thing is ooooogulaay..im sure the interior is nice tho. actually the car is in really nice condition cosmetic wise from what i can see in the pics

 

[EasyEJL]

What i'd have a question about in a 10 year old anything is rubber and springs. I don't care how well maintained a car is, the springs have had 3800lbs sitting on them for 10 years, rubber bushings and mounts start to deform + wear or even to some extent dry rot in that time. although the general mechanical drive and all and even most of the interior should be fine, the ride quality is never the same as a 2 year old car from what i've seen, including benzs.

 

[Australian made]

mullet how much did you say you paid for that benz? Better be cheap as hell cuz that thing is ooooogulaay..im sure the interior is nice tho. actually the car is in really nice condition cosmetic wise from what i can see in the pics

yeah its in nice condition, but a bit too middle aged investment banker for my liking........... i wish i could afford a car :whiner:

 

[RenegadeRows]

3000 a year to insure an echo?!?!?!?

WTF?!!

I'm happy with my 2005 corolla, which in 2 years I put 50k on it :X No problems yet, all i needed was a serpentine belt around 40k and new tires.

Can't go wrong with Toyota, best quality car from Japan

 

[jjohn]

Yeah, insurance is pretty high with a 20 yr old lol.. I agree Toyotas rock!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

What i'd have a question about in a 10 year old anything is rubber and springs. I don't care how well maintained a car is, the springs have had 3800lbs sitting on them for 10 years, rubber bushings and mounts start to deform + wear or even to some extent dry rot in that time. although the general mechanical drive and all and even most of the interior should be fine, the ride quality is never the same as a 2 year old car from what i've seen, including benzs.

Have to disagree with you on this Easy. That was actually the first thing I had remarked about this vehicle, was how incredibly smooth but sturdy/agile the ride is.

I guess the point being, for me personally, I would MUCH rather buy a used/older Benz than any new domestic vehicle. Fact is you are simply getting a higher quality car, both in terms of the entire drivetrain, and the creature comforts (leather, bose system, dual climate zones, sunroof, etc., etc., that accompany a Benz).

 

[Mulletsoldier]

mullet how much did you say you paid for that benz? Better be cheap as hell cuz that thing is ooooogulaay..im sure the interior is nice tho. actually the car is in really nice condition cosmetic wise from what i can see in the pics

Well it doesn't have quite the class of your '84 Station Wagon, but I'm working on it.

 

[pistonpump]

Well it doesn't have quite the class of your '84 Station Wagon, but I'm working on it.

it looks like wannabe class too me. And at least my '84 party wagon has wood grain on the sides! yeaaaaa budddy!

 

[RenegadeRows]

I had a 1984 Mercedes SEL 500

The f*cking thing was an 84 and had HEATED LEATHER SEATS! Along with electric seat adjustments

I was a pimp in high school with that thing

 

[Mulletsoldier]

it looks like wannabe class too me. And at least my '84 party wagon has wood grain on the sides! yeaaaaa budddy!

Good assessment. As a precept of tact and classy behavior, I value your opinion and analysis of my vehicle.

 

[pistonpump]

Good assessment. As a precept of tact and classy behavior, I value your opinion and analysis of my vehicle.

hahaha well said. im just a hater lol. rock that benz and all of its creature comforts! how much you get it for?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I was somewhat acquaintances with the dealer, so I haggled him to a grand under book value, and convinced him to throw in the Bridgestone Potenzas and the rims (OEM Performance) for free. Decent deal.

 

[EasyEJL]

Have to disagree with you on this Easy. That was actually the first thing I had remarked about this vehicle, was how incredibly smooth but sturdy/agile the ride is.

I guess the point being, for me personally, I would MUCH rather buy a used/older Benz than any new domestic vehicle. Fact is you are simply getting a higher quality car, both in terms of the entire drivetrain, and the creature comforts (leather, bose system, dual climate zones, sunroof, etc., etc., that accompany a Benz).

really that as well is not a fact, but also just an opinion but you are entitled to it. To me regardless of make, an older car is more likely to have a breakdown or require parts replacements than a new car. Wear items wear, you almost never need to replace brake calipers or rotors in the first 50k miles of a cars life, but likely will between 100k + 150k....

 

[Mulletsoldier]

really that as well is not a fact, but also just an opinion but you are entitled to it. To me regardless of make, an older car is more likely to have a breakdown or require parts replacements than a new car. Wear items wear, you almost never need to replace brake calipers or rotors in the first 50k miles of a cars life, but likely will between 100k + 150k....

Hmmm, well I would say that is more fact than opinion (and any search of the last 10-15 years for vehicle depreciation rates would corroborate with my point [domestic cars are often not even in the top ten for their class, let alone overall]). But that's just my opinion too

I guess my point is, in my personal opinion, I can be more confident that my Mercedes will have less problems in the same time frame than will your newly purchased domestic vehicle (exceptions therein obviously). Fact is, it probably will.

 

[pistonpump]

Hmmm, well I would say that is more fact than opinion (and any search of the last 10-15 years for vehicle depreciation rates would corroborate with my point [domestic cars are often not even in the top ten for their class, let alone overall]). But that's just my opinion too

I guess my point is, in my personal opinion, I can be more confident that my Mercedes will have less problems in the same time frame than will your newly purchased domestic vehicle (exceptions therein obviously). Fact is, it probably will.

i gotta agree with domestic vehicles but i think most japanesse cars take the cake for retaining value and being reliable, not to mention euro cars cost a fortune to change parts.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i gotta agree with domestic vehicles but i think most japanesse cars take the cake for retaining value and being reliable, not to mention euro cars cost a fortune to change parts.

Most definitely PP. Japanese cars topped the few lists I was just looking at actually. Well, for coupes at the very least. And that is a MAJOR drawback to Benzs, the ridiculous repair costs.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Either way, have fun with your domestics Easy and I'll stick with my Euros. We'll both be happy!

 

[EasyEJL]

i gotta agree with domestic vehicles but i think most japanesse cars take the cake for retaining value and being reliable, not to mention euro cars cost a fortune to change parts.

Ford has overtaken toyota for quality and reliability as of this year, go ahead and check JD powers for that info... And mercedes benz has been steadily dropping.

Again, people are free to have their own opinions I find that both the japanese + euro car beliefs of reliability aren't completely backed up by statistical data when you factor in costs.

 

[EasyEJL]

Either way, have fun with your domestics Easy and I'll stick with my Euros. We'll both be happy!

360hp in a 4dr sedan with leather, bluetooth radio, sunroof, steering wheel controls, close to same interior space as the benz S600, $32,000.... I'm happy with it. And your car does look sweet. did you ever say what you paid for it? i was looking at a friends used 96 S600, around 95k miles. I think I can get it for about $7000, seems like a halfway decent third car for the house

 

[Mulletsoldier]

360hp in a 4dr sedan with leather, bluetooth radio, sunroof, steering wheel controls, close to same interior space as the benz S600, $32,000.... I'm happy with it. And your car does look sweet. did you ever say what you paid for it? i was looking at a friends used 96 S600, around 95k miles. I think I can get it for about $7000, seems like a halfway decent third car for the house

I only have 221HP, but with AWD, an interior and features that are unmistakably Benz, at far less than half the price...I'm definitely happy with mine as well.

Umm, I'm not really sure what it would translate to at US car prices (I'm in Canada).

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Ford has overtaken toyota for quality and reliability as of this year, go ahead and check JD powers for that info... And mercedes benz has been steadily dropping.

Again, people are free to have their own opinions I find that both the japanese + euro car beliefs of reliability aren't completely backed up by statistical data when you factor in costs.

That is one year. Out of the past 15-20 is a horrid record.

I'm not trying to diss your car choices Easy, but arguing domestic quality/reliability against Japanese/European cars is ridiculous. There are reasons why you seldom see American passenger cars without collector value on the road after 10-15 years, there are reasons why the depreciation rate for American cars is usually 50-65% immediately. One must figure the fetishizing of commodities into this as well, however, I think it's undeniable there is a marked quality difference.

 

[CNorris]

I need to step down costwise for my next car (as new kid is on the way, and its wife's turn for a more expensive one) the mazda 3 could be a lot of fun. Even the 6 isn't bad pricewise. I just sort of hate to not buy an american car, but at this point some of the japanese cars are more american than GM. But comically ford now has higher initial quality than toyota or mercedes benz.....

If true that makes me happy since Mazda is pretty much the Japanese Ford.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

If true that makes me happy since Mazda is pretty much the Japanese Ford.

Mazda's are actually pretty nice. I think my gf's friend just bought a Protege? You know much about those Norris?

 

[CNorris]

Mazda's are actually pretty nice. I think my gf's friend just bought a Protege? You know much about those Norris?

No, I am pretty new to Mazda. I just loved the Mazdaspeed3so much I had to get it.

Protoge used to be Mazda's flagship car. I dont know much about it. I am pretty sure Protoge isn't even made any more. I know the 3 is the new version of the old Protoge 3.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Ahh, I don't mind those Mazda 6's at all. I enjoy the styling on the new Mazdas

 

[ReaperX]

If I got a pontiac for free, I'd also have to sell it immediately, and I'd probably sell it well below the cost of what it is worth. I don't know where the argument comes from domestic cars being as good as japanese cars. You can buy a chevy and drive it off the parking lot and you instantly lost 50% of what you paid for it. It is incredible but at the same time it is the truth.

For years the UAW has plagued american auto industries (among infecting other businesses as well) and it finally has kicked them in the balls. This is well before I was born, but the work ethic has been piss at best towards the product quality of American cars. At Ford before they used to suck on their pint of alcohol, then take the bottle, shove it into a door panel and seal it. Then even though they have a quality control center, somehow it made its way to the consumer and when you drive, there is rattling. This is just one of many instances that poor work ethic has substantiated into lousy value from domestic cars in the public's eye.

I'm surprised Ford is still afloat. I was betting on them going out os business within the next 10 years. GM and Chrysler might still be able to save themselves, but it seems to be a grim outlook for Ford.

I had several internships with Honda prior to college graduation. The way that Honda ran their company reflects why Honda is among the top rated quality cars today. Personally I've never bought an American car and I never will. My perception is that you will just be wasting good money on a poor return in the long run.

Also I am extremely anti-union and I hate the UAW.....and all unions for that matter. They always stirr up piddly sh-t when I do my inspections.


Btw, Henry Ford was a Nazi supporter when he was still alive. Somehow that detail got left out of their car advertising.

 

[Australian made]

Btw, Henry Ford was a Nazi supporter when he was still alive. Somehow that detail got left out of their car advertising.

he also said "it comes in any colour you like, as long as its black" which i thought was pretty funny

 

[EasyEJL]

I don't know where the argument comes from domestic cars being as good as japanese cars.

it comes from actual statistical data and 3rd party surveys of car owners. Not from individual beliefs I don't know where the argument comes from that japanese cars are as good as domestic ones...

The fact is that is that the high initial depreciation of american isn't due to their lack of reliability, its due to people's belief of their lack of reliability. the two are different. When audi had the 3 or 4 "unintended acceleration" crashes and deaths in the 80s, their used car prices for all models plummeted. Did that mean they were unreliable? no, it just meant that demand was lower than supply.

Part as well of the huge drop in value as a used car (that gets quoted by euro + nippon fans) is that american cars carry a high sticker price, but also tend to sell for significantly less than sticker. a $32,000 sticker car can usually be bought for $27500 where the japanese or euro car that stickers for 32k usually sells for 32k. So when a 2 year depreciation value shows 17,000 its "almost a 50%" depreciation against sticker, but its really more like 38%. Still is worse than their counterparts, but not as much.

The pontiac grand prix ranked above toyota's avalon, the mustang ranked above the solara.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=iqs&story=iqsCar&referer=&aff=boston

 

[ClintCanada]

Just some advice for a fellow Canuck --
CROSS THE BORDER AND BUY IN THE U.S. --Example: a coworker of mine just ordered a vehicle (Subaru I think) in Montana (we're in Alberta). The price there is $32 000 US which is NOW approx. $30 000 Canadian because of our dollar being at 1.10 U.S. The dealerships in Alberta were asking $40 000 . Yes, he has to pay GST at the border but thats 6% here ($1800) so his grand total is $31 800 plus the cost of fuel, and a day to drive there and back. He saves close to $8000 on this deal -- CHECK THIS OUT !!

 

[jjohn]

Just some advice for a fellow Canuck --
CROSS THE BORDER AND BUY IN THE U.S. --Example: a coworker of mine just ordered a vehicle (Subaru I think) in Montana (we're in Alberta). The price there is $32 000 US which is NOW approx. $30 000 Canadian because of our dollar being at 1.10 U.S. The dealerships in Alberta were asking $40 000 . Yes, he has to pay GST at the border but thats 6% here ($1800) so his grand total is $31 800 plus the cost of fuel, and a day to drive there and back. He saves close to $8000 on this deal -- CHECK THIS OUT !!

This is what I'll do. Only think sometimes warranty is just valid in the US.

 

[ReaperX]

Easy-


Point taken. I mentioned this in my previous post. The value of the car is based off the public's perception, I agree. This is funny b/c no matter what someone claim's an item is worth, it really is only worth as much as someone will pay for it. (This concept extends beyond cars, such as collector's items.) aka Perceptive Value.

I realize JD Power tends to rate the Pontic as 'better', however, IMHO, I have a tendency to use consumerreports for ratings.

 

[EasyEJL]

really mostly what this thread has done is make me consider buying 2-3 year old american cars and just keeping them another 2-3 years and reselling them. still in the sweet mileage as far as i'm concerned, but someone else has taken the big hit.

 

[ReaperX]

If you are up for the risk (I never take this), an 'ideal' used car domestic or not is usually around 20K-25K miles.

You'll get a decent cut off the initial price from people who buy them brand new, plus the mileage is low enough you still have a fairly new car. Sounds like a pretty sweet idea.

The car usually winds up being 2-3 yrs old at this point.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

it comes from actual statistical data and 3rd party surveys of car owners. Not from individual beliefs I don't know where the argument comes from that japanese cars are as good as domestic ones.

This is wrong, plain and simple. The issue extends far beyond personal misconceptions. One needs only to look at even a domestically inclined research firm like J.D. to see that only in the past 2 years have domestic vehicles begun to msake a resurgence. Which does not even extend to all domestic brands, simply Ford (which was admittedly only this year). However, Honda and Toyota still lead the pack, and only in the past 5 years have Mercedes and Audi begun to regress. Formerly they were at the top of the list, which is of most concern to me as they were by far and away superior to domestic vehicles when my vehicle was made. You are wrong Easy, there is no other way to state how completely wrong you are than that. No coy smilie will change that fact. You are either ignorant to the facts or intentionally ignore them.

The fact is that is that the high initial depreciation of american isn't due to their lack of reliability, its due to people's belief of their lack of reliability. the two are different. When audi had the 3 or 4 "unintended acceleration" crashes and deaths in the 80s, their used car prices for all models plummeted. Did that mean they were unreliable? no, it just meant that demand was lower than supply.

Part as well of the huge drop in value as a used car (that gets quoted by euro + nippon fans) is that american cars carry a high sticker price, but also tend to sell for significantly less than sticker. a $32,000 sticker car can usually be bought for $27500 where the japanese or euro car that stickers for 32k usually sells for 32k. So when a 2 year depreciation value shows 17,000 its "almost a 50%" depreciation against sticker, but its really more like 38%. Still is worse than their counterparts, but not as much.

Exactly, not only is the depreciation rate higher because of common reliability issues, but because of the significantly lower wholesale prices given for domestic cars. This is why domestic vehicles sell for significantly lower than sticker. The reason why their wholesale price is so much lower is a very convoluted issue, but at its base boils down to aggressive production leading to oversupply, which, brining us back to our original point, leads to quality issues.

These matters are determined by exactly what you opened with Easy; third party research, production standards, reliability, and have little to nothing to do with customer misconception (speaking about initial selling point prices here). Over the past twenty years it is absolutely undeniable, as a whole, foreign cars have outperformed domestic. Denying that, as I stated, is either bias or ignorance (not trying to be a ****, but you can do your own 'third party research' which will very much corroborate with that). While the specific brands therein have varied, with German-made cars dominating the early 80s-early 90s, but with Honda and Toyota being the most consistent, the overall trend has been forgein trumps domestic.

 

[EasyEJL]

So one last thing here mullet, explain why canadian taxi companies as well as police force primarily use US domestic vehicles? Is their unreliability made up for by the fact that over time the initial cost plus cost of repairs is still cheaper then japanese or euro cars of similar size? I specify canadian as if I used the US, i'm sure the answer would have something to do with nationalism. But heck, the montreal police don't even necessarily have to speak english, just french from what I gather. And yet they still drive american cars

 

[jjohn]

So one last thing here mullet, explain why canadian taxi companies as well as police force primarily use US domestic vehicles? Is their unreliability made up for by the fact that over time the initial cost plus cost of repairs is still cheaper then japanese or euro cars of similar size? I specify canadian as if I used the US, i'm sure the answer would have something to do with nationalism. But heck, the montreal police don't even necessarily have to speak english, just french from what I gather. And yet they still drive american cars

I'll have to defend Mullet here... Not that I don't like you Easy lol. Government get good prices from american cars because they're cheaper initially. And they usually keep these cars 2-3 years, so no major maintenance is required on them as they're always rolling new cars.. Just a point ..

 

[T-Bone]

Ford has overtaken toyota for quality and reliability as of this year, go ahead and check JD powers for that info... And mercedes benz has been steadily dropping.

Again, people are free to have their own opinions I find that both the japanese + euro car beliefs of reliability aren't completely backed up by statistical data when you factor in costs.

FORD- Found-On-Road-Dead!...

Hahahaha- Remember that one?

 

[EasyEJL]

but in that 2-3 years they put a lot of miles on them, from what I know most police cars are kept more like 5-6 years besides. And taxi companies keep their cars far longer, its common to see them with multi-hundreds of thousands of miles

 

[T-Bone]

but in that 2-3 years they put a lot of miles on them, from what I know most police cars are kept more like 5-6 years besides. And taxi companies keep their cars far longer, its common to see them with multi-hundreds of thousands of miles

That doesn't mean they are reliable, just means the police and taxi-cab companies have the money to pay for repairs!

 

[jjohn]

but in that 2-3 years they put a lot of miles on them, from what I know most police cars are kept more like 5-6 years besides. And taxi companies keep their cars far longer, its common to see them with multi-hundreds of thousands of miles

Yeah, and you'll see more and more Camry's taxis. I guess the reason they have Ford is because it's cheaper. Parts are cheaper too.. Okay, 5 years 150000 km That's probably the max they'd keep a car. At that mileage, I'd say issues haven't been huge for most cars at this point..

 

[jjohn]

FORD- Found-On-Road-Dead!...

Hahahaha- Remember that one?

FORD Fvckin Old Rusty Dog :rofl:

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, and you'll see more and more Camry's taxis. I guess the reason they have Ford is because it's cheaper. Parts are cheaper too.. Okay, 5 years 150000 km That's probably the max they'd keep a car. At that mileage, I'd say issues haven't been huge for most cars at this point..

But also thats the average length of time people keep a car. that was sort of my point in the domestic car thing to begin with if the domestic car is the same size and roughly same equipment level, and it costs less when factoring in average repairs and maintenance, I still think it is a more sensible buy. Well, and with toyota starting to see a decline in quality, do you think there will be mroe camry taxis? I'm not sure. Going back to pricing, its more based on what people are willing to pay for a product. People are irrational, people frequently do things based on beliefs like nationalism, religion or other ideas that don't necessarily have factual backing. But businesses are in business to make money, and are far less driven by belief than what you can show in $ on paper.

 

[pistonpump]

give it up easy....lol

 

[EasyEJL]

hehehehe

 

[Mulletsoldier]

So one last thing here mullet, explain why canadian taxi companies as well as police force primarily use US domestic vehicles? Is their unreliability made up for by the fact that over time the initial cost plus cost of repairs is still cheaper then japanese or euro cars of similar size? I specify canadian as if I used the US, i'm sure the answer would have something to do with nationalism. But heck, the montreal police don't even necessarily have to speak english, just french from what I gather. And yet they still drive american cars

lol

Have you ever heard of NAFTA? Enough said.

On a more serious note, that is quite a subjective example which does nothing to corroborate with your point. A Taxi Company is not going to spend 60k on a vehicle which it knows will be vomitted in, burning cigarettes dropped in it, drunks rolling all over it, it's simply a pragmatic and logistical concern. Add-in the ridiculously cheap wholesale subsidy prices they receive from the Gov., and you have ugly-ass Ford Lincolns driving people around. Has little to nothing to do with quality and/or reliability.

I can see your preference for American cars, I even accept it. However, arguing the quality/reliability, as a whole, of Domestic vs. Import is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

But also thats the average length of time people keep a car. that was sort of my point in the domestic car thing to begin with if the domestic car is the same size and roughly same equipment level, and it costs less when factoring in average repairs and maintenance, I still think it is a more sensible buy. Well, and with toyota starting to see a decline in quality, do you think there will be mroe camry taxis? I'm not sure. Going back to pricing, its more based on what people are willing to pay for a product. People are irrational, people frequently do things based on beliefs like nationalism, religion or other ideas that don't necessarily have factual backing. But businesses are in business to make money, and are far less driven by belief than what you can show in $ on paper.

This proves my point above perfectly as it pertains to aggressive and quality-lacking overproduction leading to a lower quality of car, which, in turn, translates to lower pricing. Taxi companies choosing American cars is a bottom-line issue. They receive them so cheap that the fact they pose a much higher average risk of failure is a moot point, as they can replace them much easier. It is not a repair-cost issue, as when a car becomes that problematic they simply replace as opposed to repairing them.

Haha, I feel like I'm being a ****, but you're wrong Easy. There is simply no other way I can quantify that. You say your views come from empirical evidence, than find it for me. Look at Consumer Reports, JD, etc., and average out (this is speaking categorically, i.e., Sedan, Suv, etc.,) which style of vehicle has had more quality winners over the last 10-15 years. Import or Domestic. Guess what? It isn't domestic.

This Taxi example is as if to say 'People use these cheap PS/PH clones because they are of a higher quality, and produce more reliable results than injectable steroids'. No, they don't. They are a lower quality, carry more risk, and produce more unreliable results as they have less research and statistical backing. But, people use these cloned oral steroids because they are cheap, and easily available. And, in turn, Canadian Taxi companies use American cars because they are cheap, and easily available.

 

[ReaperX]

EasyEJL-


Don't stop buying American cars. Someone's gotta pay the wages for those lazy UAW workers !

 

[Distilled Water]

EasyEJL-


Don't stop buying American cars. Someone's gotta pay the wages for those lazy UAW workers !

Yea especially the UAW guys in Michigan. Where half the plants are close down and guys sit in the parking lot of the plants from 9-5 and get paid while "waiting for transfers" :clap2: