Topic of the Week: Phosphatidic Acid or Arachidonic Acid?

[dreamcrusher]

The main study on PA was done dosing 750mg/day; if you wish to dose higher, there may be benefits to doing so. Its ultimately your call, of course, but personally Id start off in the 750-1000mg range and assess from there.

Dose prewo, and you can dose on non-wo days as well if you wish.

I'm looking at the "Life Extension" brand and it says each tbsp is 10g of Lecithin granules?

Does that sound right?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Why not stack the two. Infact stack that with clear muscle and see what happens with the killer 3.

If I recall, KDD said that HMB-FA doesn't really help with the soreness from ArA, although I could be remembering that statement incorrectly.
I will say that HMB-FA stacked with PA (at least 3tbsp from lecithin granules) is an amazing stack. The PA really helps with muscle fullness and strength gains; I seem to be setting some sort of PR every time I step foot in the gym. Add in Clear Muscle, and I can hit each muscle group more frequently, which means more PRs and more progress. I just need to add in some good joint support to handle the increased volume and frequency, but it's a great stack.

As for PA vs ArA, I've never ran ArA because of my medical history. I'd probably be fine, but I just don't think it's worth the risk. As NewAgeMayan said, PA has the advantage of not needing to be cycled, so you can reap the benefits of PA supplementation indefinitely (I don't think anyone has noticed diminishing effects with continued use). There also shouldn't be any potential joint problems with PA like there may be with ArA.

 

[kbayne]

Both are fantastic and like others have stated, you can get PA via Soy Lecithin and with how cheap it is, it's not a question its worth it. Even if you aren't using it for PA, the health benefits are great.

I do love ArA and have done multiple runs with it. Every run I've noticed its effectiveness being strength, size, allowing for increased caloric intake, pumps.

I just started up on Lecithin Granules (Fearn) and am doing 3 tbsp (2.5 pre and .5 post). I will see how this higher dose treats me as I continue to run it as it doesn't need to be cycled.

My take on it, stack them if able

 

[Hockeyaus33]

PA gave me the most strength gains ive ever had, but I admit that I looked very bloated.

X-gels give me the biggest pump and overall lean muscle gains.

Id go with ARA if I had to choose between the two.

 

[dreamcrusher]

PA gave me the most strength gains ive ever had, but I admit that I looked very bloated.

X-gels give me the biggest pump and overall lean muscle gains.

Id go with ARA if I had to choose between the two.

What do you think caused the bloat?

 

[Lynks8]

PA gave me the most strength gains ive ever had, but I admit that I looked very bloated.

X-gels give me the biggest pump and overall lean muscle gains.

Id go with ARA if I had to choose between the two.

What PA product were you taking? How much? How often?

Anyone else experience PA bloating? I recently started 2tbsp of granules pre-workout; haven't noticed this yet. Trying to cut to ~8% bf. Will report back if I start to notice said bloating.

As for PA vs ARA: I didn't get much from ARA other than great pumps. Didn't notice the increased DOMS or strength so many others have reported. Hoping I'll notice something from PA.

 

[Danes]

What do you think caused the bloat?

It is due to glycogen retention

 

[Admin]

It is due to glycogen retention

How would increased glycogen retention cause bloating?

 

[doogans]

It is due to glycogen retention

Similar to the glycogen retention experienced with PH/ DS? A little bit of bloating isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Admin]

Similar to the glycogen retention experienced with PH/ DS? A little bit of bloating isn't always a bad thing.

Bloating is generally between the muscle and fascia/skin (if thats what being talked about) Glycogen retention is intramuscular....not subcutaneous. So I guess the question should be, where are you bloated? It could simply be a GI issue with consuming the granules.

 

[Danes]

How would increased glycogen retention cause bloating?

Very simple actually.
Let me explain very simple:
For each 1 gram of carbohydrate stored (glycogen) ,leads to 3 grams of water stored too. Less carbs mean less glycogen, and that means less water stored.

 

[Danes]

Bloating is generally between the muscle and fascia/skin (if thats what being talked about) Glycogen retention is intramuscular....not subcutaneous. So I guess the question should be, where are you bloated? It could simply be a GI issue with consuming the granules.

This is totaly true . But i believe the "bloat" many experience is actually glycogen retention and not bloat as you described

 

[Admin]

Very simple actually.
Let me explain very simple:
For each 1 gram of carbohydrate stored (glycogen) ,leads to 3 grams of water stored too. Less carbs mean less glycogen, and that means less water stored.

Yes, thats very basic, but that is water stored within the muscle, not subcutaneous.

 

[Admin]

This is totaly true . But i believe the "bloat" many experience is actually glycogen retention and not bloat as you described

If you increased glycogen retention, you will likely look more pumped, which then actually reduces the space between muscle and skin...which makes you seem LESS bloated.

 

[Hockeyaus33]

What PA product were you taking? How much? How often?

Anyone else experience PA bloating? I recently started 2tbsp of granules pre-workout; haven't noticed this yet. Trying to cut to ~8% bf. Will report back if I start to notice said bloating.

As for PA vs ARA: I didn't get much from ARA other than great pumps. Didn't notice the increased DOMS or strength so many others have reported. Hoping I'll notice something from PA.

I was using soy lecithin granules. 2 tbsp preworkout then 2 tbsp post workout

 

[Lynks8]

If you increased glycogen retention, you will likely look more pumped, which then actually reduces the space between muscle and skin...which makes you seem LESS bloated.

Exactly. I wanted to see if I could keep some fullness on this carb-cycling cut. Having heard of the much-touted PA glycogen fullness, I figured it would be perfect for this. No bloating yet. We'll see what happens in future weeks and/or if I up the dose.

I was using soy lecithin granules. 2 tbsp preworkout then 2 tbsp post workout

Cool. Thanks for the answer.

 

[kbayne]

I notice no bloating from Fearns product.

 

[Danes]

If you increased glycogen retention, you will more likely look more pumped, which then actually reduces the space between muscle and skin...which makes you seem LESS bloated.

Well that is correct.
The main question is like you said would be "where are you bloated" .
Is it stomach, then its due to granules. Wr shall not forget people are taking 4-6 tbs and it is some grams of Fat

 

[kbayne]

I think a lot of people get confused about bloating and muscle fullness/glycogen retention.

 

[Admin]

Well that is correct.
The main question is like you said would be "where are you bloated" .
Is it stomach, then its due to granules. Wr shall not forget people are taking 4-6 tbs and it is some grams of Fat

Exactly. That could wreck a lot of GI tracts. :lol:

 

[Danes]

Exactly. That could wreck a lot of GI tracts. :lol:

Thanks god, i havent experienced any issues even my gut is very sensitive

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I notice no bloating from Fearns product.

Me neither, nor any other product Ive tried.

It does seem as if some people (at least in other threads) may be using the terms 'bloating' and 'muscle fullness' interchangably.

 

[Danes]

Me neither, nor any other product Ive tried.

It does seem as if some people (at least in other threads) may be using the terms 'bloating' and 'muscle fullness' interchangably.

I believe it that too. Thats why I used to say "due to glycogen retention". But like Admin said, it should be asked , "where are you bloated"

 

[Admin]

Me neither, nor any other product Ive tried.

It does seem as if some people (at least in other threads) may be using the terms 'bloating' and 'muscle fullness' interchangably.

....which is SO wrong. :lol:

 

[kboxer7]

I've not noticed any bloating, but after about 4-5 days I've experienced an increase in muscle fullness and size. I presume this is due to increased glycogen retention.

Muscle fullness has been most notable in areas with the lowest bf like arms, calves, etc.

0.8 lb increase in weight after 5-6 days (no change in diet or training).

I've also hit a few PRs (bench, leg press), and by day 4 I've noticed I can bang out a few more reps or an extra set.

No change in DOMS

EDIT:

Fearns @ 2-2.5 tbsp pre, 2 tbsp post

 

[NewAgeMayan]

....which is SO wrong. :lol:

Im not familiar with 'bloating' other than stomach bloating, at least I dont think Ive experienced 'bloating' at muscle sites like bis, chest, etc; Im not sure how or why soyl/PA would cause fluid buildup between the muscle and skin...I mean, Ive heard of people saying similiar things about 'creatine bloating', and they seem to be indicating fluid buildup outside of muscle tissue (and not necessarily meaning stomach bloating). Again, beacuse I havnt experienced this extra-muscular 'bloating/fluid build-up' myself, its a bit mysterious *shrug*

 

[Admin]

I won't allow people to confuse muscle fullness with bloating. If that's the case Athletix high volume causes massive pumps and bloating. Sorry, I have to drawn the line somewhere!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Whatever floats your bloat, dude

 

[Admin]

Whatever floats your bloat, dude

Was a joke. Lighten up Francis.

 

[Danes]

Was a joke. Lighten up Francis.

Lol here too

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Was a joke. Lighten up Francis.

lol, so was my comment, my intentional play on a certain word was too subtle

Humour backfire

 

[Admin]

lol, so was my comment, my intentional play on a certain word was too subtle

Lol...****. Note to self, don't post between sets. Yeah, I'm that guy in the gym. :lol:

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Dont worry, we've all seen those posts on fbook,etc where the text is deliberately misspelt to demonstrate how our brain tends to 'see' what it expects to read.

 

[Driven2lift]

I won't allow people to confuse muscle fullness with bloating. If that's the case Athletix high volume causes massive pumps and bloating. Sorry, I have to drawn the line somewhere!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

shots fired at Athletix!
Jk lol

Not all fluid retention is bloat,
Certainly not for bodybuilders who are doing their very best to load up intramuscular and drain out everything else


This would be similar to GMS

 

[NewAgeMayan]

shots fired at Athletix!
Jk lol

Not all fluid retention is bloat,
Certainly not for bodybuilders who are doing their very best to load up intramuscular and drain out everything else


This would be similar to GMS

Ah, yes, I remember the term is used often by pro bbers especially close to contest time.

For non-competitors, though, are there specific ingredients that might make one more susceptible to bloating? Again, I dont understand how PA or soy lecithin is possibly doing this, but I admit I dont really understand the general mechanism of extra-muscular bloating anyway.

 

[Driven2lift]

Ah, yes, I remember the term is used often by pro bbers especially close to contest time. For non-competitors, though, are there specific ingredients that might make one more susceptible to bloating? Again, I dont understand how PA or soy lecithin is possibly doing this, but I admit I dont really understand the general mechanism of extra-muscular bloating anyway.

Was referring to any BB guy really,
And these ingredients would be great for any athletic individual

Bloat could mean a lot of things these days as people use it for an extended stomach, indigestion, or extra fluid retention

So a lot of ways.

In terms if water though, generally overconsumption of carbs or sodium, anything that draws water with it

 

[NewAgeMayan]

And these ingredients would be great for any athletic individual

Totally agreed

Id hate having to choose between ArA or PA irl. But I certainly empathise with those who experience intolerable issues with ArA.

 

[Run579]

Anyone hear of any side effects with 750 mg of PA? One article I read about it did not mention side effects after "comprehensive" blood tests before and after.

 

[dreamcrusher]

Just picked up some granules.

I'm currently cutting doing some hypertrophy work 6x a week with cardio after.

From what I read it seems this stuff is better on a bulk but I'll give it a shot anyway. Plan on taking 2tbsp 2x a day with shakes.

Thanks for the info gents!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Anyone hear of any side effects with 750 mg of PA? One article I read about it did not mention side effects after "comprehensive" blood tests before and after.

I haven't. I'll look through the full text of the 3 studies (2 with 750mg and 1 with 1g) and see what, if anything, was mentioned.

 

[Run579]

I haven't. I'll look through the full text of the 3 studies (2 with 750mg and 1 with 1g) and see what, if anything, was mentioned.

Thank you, I only read a few articles that mentioned the studies and they did not mention anything. Further, I read some reviews and saw some logs on another forum and no one really mentioned side effects. I was just weary since this seems like a relatively new supplement that has some profound effects based upon anecdotal reports.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I was just weary since this seems like a relatively new supplement

But its not; well, not really.

I mean, its a new ingredient in our community, but people have been ingesting study-dose-quantities of PA for decades (soy lecithin products).

Not that Im trying to discourage care when it comes to supplementation, but if we consider the ingredient in its wider context, its reatively safe.

 

[Run579]

But its not; well, not really.

I mean, its a new ingredient in our community, but people have been ingesting study-dose-quantities of PA for decades (soy lecithin products).

Not that Im trying to discourage care when it comes to supplementation, but if we consider the ingredient in its wider context, its reatively safe.

Oh okay, I did not know. Maybe I just thought it was new because I am just hearing about it now and a few companies are coming out with PA products now (MT and Cutler come to mind).

 

[dreamcrusher]

Anyone how to calculate how much PA your getting from the granules?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Oh okay, I did not know. Maybe I just thought it was new because I am just hearing about it now and a few companies are coming out with PA products now (MT and Cutler come to mind).

Yes, thats right, what is 'new' is the deliberate processing of soy in order to yield a higher than normal concentrate of phosphatidic acid; the end result of this processing is a patented blend called 'Mediator'. Any product that contains Mediator has a 1500mg blend that yields 750mg PA.

 

[Run579]

Yes, thats right, what is 'new' is the deliberate processing of soy in order to yield a higher than normal concentrate of phosphatidic acid; the end result of this processing is a patented blend called 'Mediator'. Any product that contains Mediator has a 1500mg blend that yields 750mg PA.

Ahh that clears it up, thank you!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Anyone hear of any side effects with 750 mg of PA? One article I read about it did not mention side effects after "comprehensive" blood tests before and after.

[It looks like that, of the 3 studies:
-one said "PA and PL were very well tolerated and no adverse events have been reported."
-one mentioned that adverse reactions were monitored, but didn't mention any specifics, and said that it was safe.
-one didn't seem to make any mention of adverse reactions at all.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Interesting info from one of the PA studies:

It is interesting to note that there was a trend (p = 0.068) for PA to decrease body fat (ES = 0.28). Past research strongly suggests that RT alone does not provide a strong stimulus for fat loss [32]. However since muscle mass is a very metabolically active tissue [33], the fat loss may be explained by the increased LBM. While we presently can only speculate as to why or if this may be the case, future research may be interested in exploring the possibility of PA as a fat loss agent, as PA is known to interact with many complexes

 

[Run579]

[It looks like that, of the 3 studies:
-one said "PA and PL were very well tolerated and no adverse events have been reported."
-one mentioned that adverse reactions were monitored, but didn't mention any specifics, and said that it was safe.
-one didn't seem to make any mention of adverse reactions at all.

Thank you for checking out the studies. I think I will look into PA products or the SL (fearn) PA.

 

[Spaniard]

I'm a huge fan of ArA, have been for forever now. Back in the day I even offered up a challenge to someone running a mild PH to compare results and said I would beat them lol. That's how much I believe in ArA. That being said PA is definitely climbing it's way up the ranks IMO