Re: Ok here goes
Originally posted by elijah_123
First off I am lumping 1-test in with the ph camp.
Next check this article by big cat for the ph effects and sides
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm
About this statement
"All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about."
I'll assume will agree 4-ad, 1-ad and 1-test at doeses that produce anything like steroid results also give get supression of natty test productiong. (Something I definately consider a side effect). If I should go dig up studies to prove it let me know.
Sorry it is early in the morning I don't have refrence to articles on exactly how suppressive/aromatizing etc. each ph is. But by your own post you state how hard they can be on you
Also as I stated I wasn't sure which sides he was worried about. Taking huge mounts of ph's orally may lead to liver problems etc.
Perhaps there is a magic point where you can see some results from ph with no sides. I'll admit that but I tend to want the most I can get from a cycle, and do post-cycle therapy to take care of it.
Thanks for calling me out, and sorry if I didn't answer you well enough just holler at me some more
Of course me asking about what sides you are referring to was basically a rhetorical question
So let's define this a bit further. If you want to compare direct results between PH's and steroids, then I will agree that nearly all steroids will yield better results in terms of overall lean mass gains. What you stated howver, was this:
Originally posted by elijah_123
All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about.
Here you did not say "results comparable to steroids", you said "results". There is a big difference between those two. To say PH's do not produce any results without negative side effects is just not accurate.
Let's define "side effects". I do not consider lowering natty test levels a "side effect", as it is inherent in some PH's and steroids due to their chemical makeup and conversion process that this will happen. Also you referred to large amounts of oral PH's, which I think we can all agree is not the optimal way to go. 1,4 andro sure, but others certainly not.
Also let's consider: most users on a decently planned 4 week bulking PH cycle (be it 1-test, 4-ad, 1,4andro, 19nor, 3-alpha, 5A, etc) can expect to gain anywhere from maybe 8-20 lbs. I have experienced this, and seen it repeatedly throughout hundreds of reports. Would you argue that these are not "results"? Out of these hundreds of cycles, I have seen maybe a handful of gyno reports, and even less prostate problems. I haven't heard of liver problems from recent PH's, have you?