Middle Age Is A Great Excuse To Blast And Cruise

[Godstrength]

Libido completely gone for months now.

Time to get back on?

 

[SelfMedic]

Yeah. PL isn't the goal anymore. Just libido and maintaining good kidney function.

 

[Hyde]

Yeah. PL isn't the goal anymore. Just libido and maintaining good kidney function.

Would TRT put your kidneys in jeopardy? I’m assuming so based on you coming off but curious if you’d discussed it with the doc

 

[SelfMedic]

Would TRT put your kidneys in jeopardy? I’m assuming so based on you coming off but curious if you’d discussed it with the doc

I doubt it. I was doing a gram of test and hundreds of milligrams of tren when my kidney function went so low. I will do labs every six weeks and keep the dose down closer to 100 than 200. I expect very different results in terms of sides like that.

Psychiatrist added low dose of lithium (150mg) to my 75mg of Wellbutrin with an eye toward upping the Wellbutrin to 150mg after a few weeks. I'm going to give this 4-6 weeks before adding TRT.

 

[SelfMedic]

The day after I started the lithium I started getting MW. Also having sex dreams, but very little actual libido when awake.

 

[SelfMedic]

http://www.allthingsmale.com/community/threads/lower-than-100mg-cypionate-weekly.26471/#post-242136

I started with the idea that I should keep the dose very low to mimic natural production and resulting levels. Above is a link to a thread in which several men report better results on <100 mg weekly.

Natural production is 4-7 mg/day or 28-49 mg/week. Compare that with 200 mg/week or 140 mg of actual test for cyp and enth. That is roughly triple natural production. Even just 100 mg weekly of test E results in 70 mg per week of actual test, or 40% higher than the high end of the natural range.

Muscle mass increases linearly with test dosages. But other hormones and their interplay must quickly get jacked up with higher than natural levels. We've been pretending 100-200 mg per week is therapeutic, but even those levels are for supranormal results.

I am restarting with just 30 mg e3.5d, which is 60 mg per week including the ester and 42 mg of pure test. That is close to the high end of the 28-49 mg per week of a healthy male. Such a low dose shouldn't jack up my e2 that much and require guessing doses for an AI.

Bros will mock such doses as "causing shutdown for nothing," but they measure results by size gained not by health. So I should really pay more attention to actual doctors in the business of improving quality of life.

 

[Hyde]

I’m definitely in favor of this attempt. Test won’t be low, estrogen won’t be high, the body doesn’t have to figure out what to do with a surplus and hematocrit and the organs don’t take a loading. Hope it’s a foot in the right direction

 

[Nac]

If youre serious about real, therapeutic TRT, youd try TD. What I mean is, daily application of a gel will more closely mimic natural diurnal fluctuations (peaks/troughs) than any practical inj protocol could hope to achieve.

 

[Godstrength]

If youre serious about real, therapeutic TRT, youd try TD. What I mean is, daily application of a gel will more closely mimic natural diurnal fluctuations (peaks/troughs) than any practical inj protocol could hope to achieve.

This is what I use for trt and prefer to inj for this purpose.... It's as if at a certain level the body won't absorb and use the test in a way that exceeds supraphysiological test levels.... In my opinion the tds put you closer to true trt levels. So in other words my body will tend to stay at levels of 7-800 ng/dl in my experience give or take, even if I increased dosage significantly.

 

[SelfMedic]

I’m definitely in favor of this attempt. Test won’t be low, estrogen won’t be high, the body doesn’t have to figure out what to do with a surplus and hematocrit and the organs don’t take a loading. Hope it’s a foot in the right direction

Thank you. Exactly right.

Some small portion of men will require higher doses while some larger portion doesn't need that high a dose but neither will they be harmed much or at all by higher doses. They get bigger, stronger, and hornier without catastrophic organ damage.

Then there are the 80% of men on the bubble of a Gaussian distribution who go beyond natural levels at their peril. They aromatize too much, their kidneys and livers and blood quickly start developing problems, etc.

Plus, maybe what is an optimal test level actually declines with age. So while I might have been good with 5.5 mg per day in my 20's, in my 40's 4.5 is optimal. I may only be producing 2-3 mg per day, but jumping to 20 mg per day (the amount of pure test I get from administering 200 mg of test E per week) is still far from optimal.

Further as I think about it, it takes weeks to shut down and the amount of shutdown is tied to how much I'm dosing. So I am still producing test endogenously, at least for a while. So I should start really lower than the target and titrate up as my HPTA winds down.

I have read many accounts of men feeling better in the first three weeks or so then returning to baseline in terms of mood and sex drive. Maybe they would have better results by adjusting the dose upward after their natural production stops being as robust as before they started exogenous testosterone.

Whatever. I do think HRT has been too influenced by performance enhancement thinking. Why else would "clinics" be pushing 250 mg/week of cyp along with an AI? That's 170 mg of exogenous test per week into a body that really needs maybe around 40.

Doctors like Dr. Crisler are ahead of their time with these recommendations of just 60 mg of test cyp (41 mg of pure test) per week to start.

If youre serious about real, therapeutic TRT, youd try TD. What I mean is, daily application of a gel will more closely mimic natural diurnal fluctuations (peaks/troughs) than any practical inj protocol could hope to achieve.

This is what I use for trt and prefer to inj for this purpose.... It's as if at a certain level the body won't absorb and use the test in a way that exceeds supraphysiological test levels.... In my opinion the tds put you closer to true trt levels. So in other words my body will tend to stay at levels of 7-800 ng/dl in my experience give or take, even if I increased dosage significantly.

Topical seems to be all over the place in terms of results. All the docs I follow prefer injections but subcutaneous over intramuscular.

 

[Hyde]

Subq gets less effective the fatter you are - fat stores aromatase enzymes after all. Somebody under 20% it’s probably fine.

 

[SelfMedic]

I was gonna wait a couple more weeks, but honestly I don't see the point plus I'm tired of having no libido. Meanwhile I keep finding more positive stories about lower test doses in the 60-80 mg/week range.

So tonight I gave myself my first injection of 2018. This is the start of my low-dose protocol: 30 mg test enanthate IM Wed night and again Sun morning. Let's see how I feel in a month.

 

[SelfMedic]

I feel I should mention how much my body has changed because of cycling. I don't eat enough and I don't train at all anymore. Yet I remain 170 lbs every day and I am lean and at least strong looking. I have been under 145 for half my adult life, usually closer to 135 lbs. So it trips me out a little bit that I can maintain an extra 30 lbs of muscle and a little fat (I have a 4-pack now instead of an 8-pack like when I was 130-140 lbs) with zero effort.

I want to be careful here. I don't "look like I lift" until I am over 180 lbs. Right now I look like a swimmer or underwear model --wide-shouldered ectomorph with moderate muscle-- instead of a lifter. But it is just amazing how my unmaintained set point has slid upward so far.

 

[Hyde]

Exogenous androgens create new muscle nuclei that can last for years...perhaps for life. Biopsies of natty and non-natty muscle tissue of similar size look very different.

Using gear changes you, in ways we don’t even fully understand. So does hard training and manual labor, even if it’s not continued.

 

[SelfMedic]

Started Wednesday. It's Saturday. Here are the results so far...

4/18: injected 30 mg test E in evening
4/20: intense, vivid wet dream early morning
4/21: very hard morning erection

But also this morning both my shoulders hived up. Since my shoulder skin is where I get pimples when I blast I think there may be a correlation.

The MW was a great to have, however. Felt some sex drive, too. Heading in the right direction and pretty quickly.

 

[SelfMedic]

Spoke too soon. Just very brief MW this morning before injection and nothing else all day.

What happened with my levels that after 2.5 days I had healthy MW and decent libido for just a day? Test level peaked then fell? Looking forward to more libido as levels stabilize.

Update 4/23:
Wet dream early a.m. Awoke to a solid morning wood.

Update 4/24:
No MW, sexual dreams, or libido.

 

[SelfMedic]

Exogenous androgens create new muscle nuclei that can last for years...perhaps for life. Biopsies of natty and non-natty muscle tissue of similar size look very different.

Using gear changes you, in ways we don’t even fully understand. So does hard training and manual labor, even if it’s not continued.

My testosterone was probably twice as high in my early 20's, yet I couldn't seem to gain weight back then. I did GOMAD for two years and powerlifted seriously in my 30's and got up to 185 with a milk paunch.

But now on the other side of AAS without any recent or current supplementation or training, I am far bigger and stronger than I was as a very young man with much more testosterone.

So I have to agree with you emphatically about the powerful and lasting effects of heavy lifting and test, especially when combined.

By the bye, it is not even a week on my minuscule dose of 30 mg e3.5d test-E and I am already putting on size. I was just changing clothes and got a good look at myself in just my underpants; my delts, traps, last, and pecs all look a little more plump already.

In fact, the difference was so noticeable that I hopped on the scale to get some emperical comparison. Turns out I am over 175 lbs for the first time in a few months. I had been 170 and under for a long while now.

 

[RickyBlobby]

My weekly dose of Test Cyp. is 100mg, and my total T is right at 1,000. I just rol my eyes when guys state they are on 200-250mg for "TRT".

My blood gets too thick at only 100mg as well. A well known bodybuilder said the cruise dosage optimal for health + sufficient anabolism is 80mg a week.

 

[SelfMedic]

My weekly dose of Test Cyp. is 100mg, and my total T is right at 1,000. I just rol my eyes when guys state they are on 200-250mg for "TRT".

My blood gets too thick at only 100mg as well. A well known bodybuilder said the cruise dosage optimal for health + sufficient anabolism is 80mg a week.

Thank you for posting this!

My entire frame of reference has now shifted along these lines:

60-80 mg test C or E = TRT cruise for libido and well-being

80-100 mg = mix of health and PE

100 - 120 = blast for PE wih risk to health benefit

<120 = unnecessary with ever-growing risk of unwanted sides, need for complicating ancillaries, and outright dysfunction.

I understand that there are guys who will do better with 200 or 40, but it looks like the above holds true for most.

 

[SelfMedic]

4/25: no libido last night or MW this morning. Injected 30 mg test-E this evening. Maybe I should inject smaller amounts E2D instead of E3.5D. Looks like I peak about 48 hours after the injection then dip hard the day after the peak.

Went to gym today for first time in months and paused back squatted up to 225 for a triple.

4/26: Mild MW about 12 hours after injection. Low libido. Otherwise feeling pretty upbeat. MW and libido will likely peak tomorrow (Friday) and dip Saturday. I will try very hard to give it a couple more weeks before I switch to a slightly lower dose EOD, i.e. 20 mg test-E EOD for a yield of 49 mg test weekly vs 30 mg test-E e3.5d for a more jaggedy distributed yield of 42 mg test weekly.

Honestly I would prefer to use less test and inject less frequently, but will go with whichever protocol makes me feel best.

 

[SelfMedic]

I did some digging and found that in Jan, 2017 I had single-digit and teen levels for SHBG. Also I was dosing 30 mg test-E eod and had trough levels over 1300 ng/dL total test.

30 mg is 105 mg per week, or 73.5 mg of test per week. That is definitely just on the near-supraphysiological side of the 28 - 77 mg/week range. And my 1300-mg trough reflects that. Yikes.

I read that low SHBG guys may a) have underlying health problems and b) tend to better with 3x weekly injections to smooth out and lower e2 production since that e2 will not have any SHBG to bind to it.

So I think I will go ahead and increase the frequency to eod and drop each injection to 20 mg test-E. That's 70 mg per week, 49 of actual test and right at the top of the higher side for natural production. I hope to see my TT under 1000 at peak and under 800 at trough in a few weeks.

 

[SelfMedic]

4/27: zero MW, but I did only get three hours sleep. Still think I would do better with lower injection dose eod. Really need to watch out for e2 spikes.

4/28 Update: Decent MW. Stronger than yesterday, but not as strong as a first one a few days ago. This is a about 60 hours after my shot.

I really think I would do a little better by almost doubling frequency to eod and lowering amplitude from 30 mg TE to 20 mg. Would smooth out ride with lower peaks and higher troughs.

I know I have only been back at this about 10 days, but my SHBG while on has been in the single digits. Going from every 84 hours to every 48 would very likely lead from MW two or three times per week to MW five or six times per week.

There are some men (likely with very low SHBG) who do best with daily shots of very low amplitude. I don't want to inject daily again, but eod seems a good compromise.

Update: made the switch. 20 mg test-E this morning.

4/29: some MW, libido = 3 out of 10.
4/30: strong MW, libido = 4 out of 10. Injected 20 mg test E in AM.

 

[SelfMedic]

Paused bench up to 175 for two triples, then DB rows with the 100s.

For months I have not wanted to go to the gym. It's so nice to have some motivation back along with the strong drive to push iron. My mood is better and I am feeling and acting more assertively. Right-dosing test is the sh!t!!

I can tell my dopamine situation is better on test, too, because I have almost zero desire to party or get messed up.

Seems I am really getting all the positive stuff: mood, confidence, ambition/drive, morning erections, dampening of addictive urges, and some libido.

Next injection on Wed

5/1: Sex dream and MW
5/2: Ditto.

 

[SelfMedic]

Still on 20-22 mg test enth eod. Morning wood is good, but overall libido still wanting. I need to get blood work next week, but others have pointed out that my blood pressure meds and anti-depressants are probably contributing to my problems.

If my trough T levels are low, I will up dose to 25-27 mg eod. If my e2 is high, I will split the dose and up frequency to 10-12 mg ED. If my e2 is REALLY high, I will start a low dose of AI.

 

[Hyde]

Antidepressants can change everything

 

[SelfMedic]

Antidepressants can change everything

Also it looks like my libido is coming back, but only under the extreme circumstances of new potential sexual partners. I don't walk around prone to sexual thoughts, but if a novel female seems receptive, I start getting sexually excited. Kind of a tricky problem now that I'm in a committed relationship.

I've been a "serial dater" for most of my adult life and I tend to get tired of a having sex with a given woman by the third time I sleep with her. So this level of libido is actually approaching normal for me. So I'd say my current libido level has improved to a 4/10 or 5/10. A 10/10 is 18 to 25-year-old levels when I would occasionally have to find a place to masturbate in the middle of my school day or work day. I would be very happy with a 7/10 or 8/10 these days.

I am meeting my GP this week to discuss reducing or eliminating one or both BP meds; my blood pressure has been excellent since I stopped blasting so I may not need the BP meds at all. I meet my psychiatrist next month and will talk about the anti-depressants.

Blood work after I meet with GP this week. But I think about half my problem right now is situational: I prefer a variety of partners and risky scenarios.

 

[SelfMedic]

Bloodwork shows my total and free test and e2 are all elevated after exactly six weeks of 20-22 mg test-E eod.

Testosterone, Total LC/MS/MS 779 ng/dL [trough], RR 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 271.5 pg/mL, RR 35-155 pg/mL
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive LC/MS/MS 54 pg/mL, RR <= 29 pg/mL

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin 13 nmol/L, RR 10-50 nmol/L

Estimated Glucose Filtration Rate 70 mL/min/1.73m2, RR >= 60 mL/min/1.73m2

First off, my EGFR has declined. It was 55 at my highest level of abuse, but even on a low dose of test, it's has declined from the high of 80+ I had while I was completely clean.

Second, I was aiming for a test trough reading of 450-500. Instead my trough is just shy of 800!!! That is just insane to me. Add this to my 54 e2 reading, and it is clear that my dosage is still way too high. I may need a little bit of help from an AI from time to time, but first I would like to see how I do with an even lower dose than the 20 mg eod test-E I've been using. Everything about my readings say this is too much by far. Even the ever tricky free T is super high.

On that note, my doc wants me to stop immediately so I can avoid kidney damage. I understand her frustration with my use. But I am not ready to give up my morning and nighttime erections or give up on my pursuit of a healthier libido.

My plan for the next few weeks is to lower the dose and take a little Arimidex.

 

[SelfMedic]

Double post

 

[Hyde]

Too much of a good thing with the anti-thyroid huh

What are you going to move your dose to? Seems like 14-15mg EOD would likely get you in range based on what 20-22 is doing.

 

[SelfMedic]

Too much of a good thing with the anti-thyroid huh

What are you going to move your dose to? Seems like 14-15mg EOD would likely get you in range based on what 20-22 is doing.

I would say so. I read about low-dosers who start around 60 test C per week and most graduate to 80 and some as high as 100. But there are those who do best by moving toward 40 per week. Looks like I am one of those.

I had a feeling this would happen based on my results a year ago. I was over 1000 TT mid-range with a dose of 30 mg test E eod. I thought 20 eod would bring me down to 800 mid-range, but instead 800 became my trough. So your estimation of 14-15 mg eod is a good one.

I kinda want to go back to every 3.5 days, too. But I should only change one thing at a time.

Picking up a little Arimidex. I read a lot of guys use a tiny bit (1/4 tab) by feel. E2 is very sensitive to AI and going by feel with tiny amounts makes a lot more sense than sticking to a script that could quickly push one out of range in either direction.

My big question: even if a lower dose is easier on my kidneys, is TRT even at extremely low doses going to damage my kidneys?

Less vital questions: why do I tolerate additional test so poorly? Why do my levels TT and FT so high on baby doses? I have read of men who need 140 - 240 mg per week to get the levels I get from 70 mg per week.

 

[Hyde]

Needing less gear isn’t a bad thing at all. It’s the best thing. I would be doing a lot of reading on the kidney/TRT situation. You don’t want to take it and find out you shouldn’t have.

 

[SelfMedic]

My low SHBG has my free T 50% over range on this baby dose. That free T is then available for e2 conversion.

I skipped my last eod injection to let my hormone levels dip a bit. That's an extra two days to starve the aromatization process of new fuel. Ideally my excessive free T and e2 levels will be drifting down to normal when I give myself a right-sized shot of 12.5 - 15 mg tomorrow. My average daily exogenous pure test (minus ester mass) will be a mere 5 mg. The natural range of a healthy young man is 4 - 7. And I am discovering that sticking to this relatively ridiculous tiny but natural level is required for me to stay healthy. Let's see if this helps get my free test and e2 back to healthy levels, along with blood pressure and kidney health!

Morning wood has been absent, but I have been trying to work two full-time, physical jobs to help save for a move across state. So I am extremely stressed and distracted.

 

[SelfMedic]

Much to my relief I woke up with strong morning wood. Always a good sign, but especially after I skipped an injection. Libido is low, though, about 2.5/10.

Started back today with 13 - 15 mg. Got some Asin on the way and will probably use a little to take the edge off what will probably still be too high an e2 count.

 

[Hyde]

Here’s hoping for the best!

 

[SelfMedic]

Libido has been really up and down, but mostly down. Again, lots of situational stress: moving, work, relationships, investments.

I think the higher e2 really is messing with me. In fact I think it has always been the problem. I've always had low SHBG and therefore even a small amount of exogenous test was resulting in high free T, which was then resulting in high e2.

A therapeutic dose for me is one which keeps my e2 in check without needing an AI. My 260 pg/mL free T is way over range. I've been on 14 +/-1 mg eod instead of 21 +/-1 mg eod (exactly 2/3) for about a week now. I am aiming for a free T level within a couple hundred points of 200 and an e2 level under 40.

 

[SelfMedic]

Morning wood, mood, and libido had been going down. I had been keeping the dose closer to 13 or 14 than to 15. But yesterday I went just a little over 15 g and today my erection woke me up.

I was thinking sub-15g was a little too low. But I was being hyper-cautious because of my last readings. I will up things to 15 - 17 g EOD.

 

[Hyde]

Aside from wood, how have you been feeling overall at 13-14?

 

[SelfMedic]

Aside from wood, how have you been feeling overall at 13-14?

Okay. But I got some more lab work and it looks like my kidney function came roaring back. I am well over 100 again at 110.

Also my e2 is consistently just 5 over the range.

So I let myself up my dose to 30 mg eod of Test E and I've been taking asin 12.5 mg e2d or e3d. I started filling out almost immediately, but no MW.

I'm going to lower it back to where I had MW and replace the asin with Proviron. My e2 doesn't seem to be high enough to warrant a strong AI.

Update later today: I think test levels are trending higher. Libido is up a bit.

 

[SelfMedic]

Settled on this:
E3.5D (Sun a.m., Wed p.m.): 62.5 mg Test E + 12.5 mg Aromasin

It seems that smaller and more frequent dosing isn't doing enough to manage e2 levels so I'm giving up on that. Going to a more convenient schedule in which I dose asin twice weekly concurrent with the e3.5d injection. I hope this lets the asin's effects coincide with the biggest levels of test, thus arresting the conversion to e2 at the best time. I'm sure this can be tweaked more, but probably not worth messing with it right now.

"Blast" = upping 62.5mg E3.5D to 75mg. I'm looking better on a total of 125 mg/week without training than I ever did as a hard-training natty. Libido is pretty good, too. I add 12.5 mg of Proviron from time to time, but I am wary of hair thinning so want to watch that. Definite hair thinning MPB after that last blast. It has thickened again on this trt dose. Confidence and aggression are good. Honestly, libido is strong, but I just don't want my partner anymore. I prefer novelty, one-night stands, or FWB where I don't have a chance to get sick of a given partner. There is never a shortage of opportunity or past lovers in my orbit and I'm going to have to man up at some point and end this relationship

 

[Hyde]

Sounds like you’ve made up your mind - if you KNOW this isn’t going to work and you would rather be alone, don’t piss around any longer and make excuses for when to do it. There’s never a good time for a breakup - it’s like a bandaid. You have to just rip it off.

 

[SelfMedic]

Did it. Just riding out our last couple months living together.

Also, I FINALLY went to DAILY low dose. Looks like that did the trick. I'm doing 10 - 12.5 mg of TE every day. Horniness is through the roof. I get aroused easily and have intense wet dreams. No AI necessary so far, though I have asin on hand.

I avoided ED dosing out of laziness. But now that I have to take a half dozen meds each morning anyway (thyroid, BP, and psychiatric), adding a daily injection no longer feels like a hassle.

I have kept a careful log and can say that the lowest possible dose and the highest possible frequency (replicating natural stats) have made the positive difference for me. I'm definitely not particularly buff on this dose, but my libido is great and I'm sure my bloodwork will look great. Will report on those numbers after my thyroid procedure.

 

[Hyde]

I’m glad you followed through - that kind of honesty and ownership will only help you be a better person, and, accordingly, live happier. She deserves a relationship you can’t give her, and you deserve the chance to pursue happiness.

Let us know how the bloods come back - hopefully things will look better than ever. You sound happier overall.

 

[SelfMedic]

Libido died about a week ago. Hair on top is definitely thinning. I am thinking of stopping self-treatment and waiting till I can afford a doc.

I no longer train at all. I just don't care at all anymore about how much I can lift or how big I am.

 

[Shiznitzz]

Libido died about a week ago. Hair on top is definitely thinning. I am thinking of stopping self-treatment and waiting till I can afford a doc.

I no longer train at all. I just don't care at all anymore about how much I can lift or how big I am.

Don't do that man, at least train and get your endorphins rolling. Breakups are never easy, ever.. And putting yourself into a situation where you isolate yourself is just going to cause even more damage.

Ultimately it's up to you, but thats my two cents. Hope everything works out

 

[Hyde]

Don't do that man, at least train and get your endorphins rolling. Breakups are never easy, ever.. And putting yourself into a situation where you isolate yourself is just going to cause even more damage.

Ultimately it's up to you, but thats my two cents. Hope everything works out

Seconded. You don’t need to be the biggest or strongest version of you to be happy, but your body still needs to move and be used - you still need exercise. Take daily walks for 15-30 min and get in the gym and do something (anything) for at least 30 minutes 3x a week.

This is important for mental health as well.