low dose of clomid

[Kristofer68SS]

It can be whatever you suggest I suppose. You were very quick to cite the imminent quote I offered to be "misinformation" which is not true even in the least.

You continued on about patients of HRT - something I have a much more intimate familiarity with than I think you give credit as well.

But we'll take a look at that particular quote in context if you want:

(ok, so it actually bleeps out the citation - unsure what to do then...but if you are really interested you can find it before calling anything "misinformation" which is highly inappropriate)


Also, you are citing post-cycle timeframes which has many confounding offerings. In particular, the fact that a good percentage will have spontaneous recovery of HPTA function WITHOUT ANY pharmaceutic agent. Just putting Tamox on board "because it is said to be done" is not appropriate campaign.

Now - post-cyclers versus chronic HRT patients secondary to sheer aging share as many dissimilarities as they do the contrary. So, this is a bit inconsisitent an association to begin with comparing the two.



D_

Without a doubt, a VERY large consideration being overlooked.

that particular paragragh is dead on the money.

 

[dinoiii]

Another reason I don't post here much is the censorship issue. A post I continued on with this morning was erased, likely secondary to the fact that it challenged a board sponsor. YAWN - typical nonsensical campaign.

D_

 

[dinoiii]

While it's true that AM tends to support the use of Nolva for pct, this is done for the practical aspect that it helps to prevent gyno while Clomid typically does not.

This is 100% inaccurate!

NO SERM prevents gyno and this is silly to assume.

Though as I now am challenging a board moderator the lifespan of this post will likely be short-lived.

If you look long and hard, you can acknowledge that the ONLY thing SERMs do is attenuate gyno-associated pain (and that too is subjective when compared to placebo on the order of 90+% to 68+% for placebo). C'mon - this board needs truly more accuracy rather than fiction.

You really shouldn't post in authoratative fashion with comments like "Nolva prevents gyno and Clomid does not." This is quite laughable actually and displays a significant dearth of knowledge on pharmaceutics here.


D_

 

[Kristofer68SS]

This is 100% inaccurate!

NO SERM prevents gyno and this is silly to assume.

Though as I now am challenging a board moderator the lifespan of this post will likely be short-lived.

If you look long and hard, you can acknowledge that the ONLY thing SERMs do is attenuate gyno-associated pain (and that too is subjective when compared to placebo on the order of 90+% to 68+% for placebo). C'mon - this board needs truly more accuracy rather than fiction.

You really shouldn't post in authoratative fashion with comments like "Nolva prevents gyno and Clomid does not." This is quite laughable actually and displays a significant dearth of knowledge on pharmaceutics here.


D_

Yeah, they usually bum rush me when i challenge nolva. I just dont have the expertise nor the vocab to fight it.

I have had a few guys jump in and help. Props to them.

Thanks D.

I am from the old school thinking.

Clomid to return test
Nolva to fight tits
AI to prevent conversion

 

[crazyfool405]

It can be whatever you suggest I suppose. You were very quick to cite the imminent quote I offered to be "misinformation" which is not true even in the least.

You continued on about patients of HRT - something I have a much more intimate familiarity with than I think you give credit as well.

But we'll take a look at that particular quote in context if you want:

(ok, so it actually bleeps out the citation - unsure what to do then...but if you are really interested you can find it before calling anything "misinformation" which is highly inappropriate)


Also, you are citing post-cycle timeframes which has many confounding offerings. In particular, the fact that a good percentage will have spontaneous recovery of HPTA function WITHOUT ANY pharmaceutic agent. Just putting Tamox on board "because it is said to be done" is not appropriate campaign.

Now - post-cyclers versus chronic HRT patients secondary to sheer aging share as many dissimilarities as they do the contrary. So, this is a bit inconsisitent an association to begin with comparing the two.



D_

D_ can you help clear this issue up becuase there seems to be so many views and people are going to be reading this thread and literally start pulling out their hair with what to do

Nolva? just an anti E at the hypothalamus but no direct effect on LH and FSH?

Clomid? mimics the pituitary and acts to directly increase LH and FSH. does this sensitize the pituitary do to the synthetic estrogen although it is used with an AI like Arimidex

Steroidal AI vs Non Steroidal when and why?

do low dose Steroidal AIs inhibit the recovery process? or do all doses inhibit recovery.

thanks for chiming in here, i know your busy.

 

[ImJ2x]

Dr. Houser-
Everytime I see you magically drop by to defend your name and trumpet your own horn (in your characteristically over-written, non-sensical style of prose) , I ask you for specific recommendations. You always claim that, "being a doctor," you can't dispense advice on an internet forum. (So why bother showing up at all?)
Anyway, I shall try again...
What do you suggest for normal PCT purposes (HPTA recovery)?
What do you suggest for gyno reduction/elimination?
Thank you.

 

[dinoiii]

D_ can you help clear this issue up becuase there seems to be so many views and people are going to be reading this thread and literally start pulling out their hair with what to do

Nolva? just an anti E at the hypothalamus but no direct effect on LH and FSH?

Yeah, I appreciate the concern and tried to throw a link but ended up with the dreaded **** across the thread, but this concept has been discussed very thorough in my subforum at LB. The issue with Nolva is that it DOES have an effect on the hypothalamic expression of GnRH and it DOES have an effect on the pituitary's outlay of LH and FSH. This, however, has ONLY been appreciated with long-time dosing (and I am talking about actual human trials, not animal-based). Most PCT regimens are considerably shorter than would allow for time to affect the serum gonadotropins and for those that say, but I am certain "my boys are coming back" when I'm on etc... may certainly not be mistaken, but compared to placebo and regular upregulation, there is no statistical difference.

Clomid? mimics the pituitary and acts to directly increase LH and FSH. does this sensitize the pituitary do to the synthetic estrogen although it is used with an AI like Arimidex

Same idea here, even with more of a heightened effect on serum gonadotropins in shorter time spans. The rationale for use with an AI of any SERM is in reverse-ramp fashion and independent of the MOA of the SERM, but rather the concept of what is happening from a physiological standpoint. If the SERM dose is high, the AI dose is relatively low and vice versa.

Steroidal AI vs Non Steroidal when and why?

Because I cannot quote my subforum, I will direct you there in the PCT: ACV series (Part IV in particular) for more. This is a much more involved topic than I have time for at present.

do low dose Steroidal AIs inhibit the recovery process? or do all doses inhibit recovery.

thanks for chiming in here, i know your busy.

Pretty heated debate, but they do NOT appear to from preliminary trials, though it would certainly make sense on paper.



D_

 

[dinoiii]

Dr. Houser-
Everytime I see you magically drop by to defend your name and trumpet your own horn (in your characteristically over-written, non-sensical style of prose) , I ask you for specific recommendations. You always claim that, "being a doctor," you can't dispense advice on an internet forum. (So why bother showing up at all?)

You know ... there are certainly nicer ways to ask. HA! But lets address a couple of things as I can see your frustration. I drop by not to "defend my name," as I could give a damn what people think to be honest - from a bb message forum - c'mon. What I do not care for is the attempt at discreditation that exists in order to attempt to "prove" (I dispise this term btw) a point. I was quoted as being "misinformed" without knowledge of the fact that I deal with countless cases of this daily - R...I...G...H...T. Of course, it did turn around and become a campaign for a product in prototypical form, so what else should I have expected. But alas I digress.

I "magically" appear as I ONLY will find threads by viewing various forums looking for "dinoiii" in the search criteria is all. I certainly do not have time to spend countless hours on all of the forums to remain status quo.

As far as recommendation. My recommendations have not changed much in the last few years actually, but I maintain that they are cycle-specific which is why I refrain from suggesting anything on the internet as it becomes assumed that I have a suggested standard PCT which is NOT the case.

Lets take the current example discussion above on gonadotropins for instance. Serum estrogen has the biggest effect on decreasing amplitude of pulsatile secretion patterns while androgens (in particular 5-alpha-reduced) have biggest effect on frequency of said pulses. That would lend to the direction that a highly aromatizable cycle would best benefit from a different PCT and on-cycle offering in countercurrent fashion versus a 5AR agent, no? This too - talked about heavily when you take a more in-depth look at my posts elsewhere. When you say I cringe on saying things, you obviously don't take too many peaks beyond the confines of AM I presume, huh?

Besides if I was so quickly dismissing of you every time you ask a question, I could hardly be described as "over-written," now could I? :toofunny:

Anyway, I shall try again...
What do you suggest for normal PCT purposes (HPTA recovery)?
What do you suggest for gyno reduction/elimination?
Thank you.

Now, I ask you again - do I really have to answer these questions. What agents are we talking about on cycle? My answer would certainly change dependent upon the agents used.

Gyno-reduction/elimination...hmmmm, some AIs but this too depends upon the physiologic and/or pathologic source. You are trying to reduce options and/or limit mine before the question is even able to be fully addressed.

I could offer a universal notion of "surgery" but somehow I don't think this is what you want to hear.

If that is the case, you could merely embrace the life that would include your own D cup, I suppose.


D_

 

[ImJ2x]

Thanks again, doc. You've been ever-so helpful.

 

[crazyfool405]

thanks D_

reading up on LB now!

 

[Eric Potratz]

It can be whatever you suggest I suppose. You were very quick to cite the imminent quote I offered to be "misinformation" which is not true even in the least.

You continued on about patients of HRT - something I have a much more intimate familiarity with than I think you give credit as well.

But we'll take a look at that particular quote in context if you want:

(ok, so it actually bleeps out the citation - unsure what to do then...but if you are really interested you can find it before calling anything "misinformation" which is highly inappropriate)


Also, you are citing post-cycle timeframes which has many confounding offerings. In particular, the fact that a good percentage will have spontaneous recovery of HPTA function WITHOUT ANY pharmaceutic agent. Just putting Tamox on board "because it is said to be done" is not appropriate campaign.

Now - post-cyclers versus chronic HRT patients secondary to sheer aging share as many dissimilarities as they do the contrary. So, this is a bit inconsisitent an association to begin with comparing the two.



D_

I’m sorry you took the comment of “misinformation” so personally. This thread is a debate about Clomid and Nolvadex -- and I felt the information in your quote was inaccurate.

My view is that Clomid is inferior to Nolvadex for male hormonal restoration, since clomid has inherent problems as I have mentioned previously.

You said short-term Nolvadex therpy either has no effect or causes a drop in LH, FSH and Testosterone. I have seen only the contrary – highly significant increases in LH, FSH and Testosterone in relatively short periods of time.

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

Yeah, they usually bum rush me when i challenge nolva. I just dont have the expertise nor the vocab to fight it.

I have had a few guys jump in and help. Props to them.

Thanks D.

I am from the old school thinking.

Clomid to return test
Nolva to fight tits
AI to prevent conversion

Kristo,

This isn’t a gang battle, and I’m not out to “bum rush” anyone.

I’m trying to share my information from my experience and research, and hopefully guide a few guys away from making a bad choice – and god forbid – maybe present an alternative that I stand to profit from.

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

Kristo,

This isn’t a gang battle, and I’m not out to “bum rush” anyone.

I’m trying to share my information from my experience and research, and hopefully guide a few guys away from making a bad choice – and god forbid – maybe present an alternative that I stand to profit from.

-Pp

of course we all appreciate your input and your help. the fact that you have extensive knowledge on the subject is great. i like hearing from you and seeing those studies you provide i would also like to see studies that D_ said nolva only helped in the long term vs short term as im very interested in hearing that

its a double edged sword in this case. they both work to increase test, yet they both have their problems.

i see nolva having the huge disadvantage in the IGF1 department.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Kristo,

This isn’t a gang battle, and I’m not out to “bum rush” anyone.

I’m trying to share my information from my experience and research, and hopefully guide a few guys away from making a bad choice – and god forbid – maybe present an alternative that I stand to profit from.

-Pp

Not you in particular sir. I know you didnt bum rush me, but it has happened to me on more than one occasion around here.

 

[crazyfool405]

yo kristofer

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/103045-phera-supdrol-layout-5.html#post1540248

some studies goin on over there, may wanna look

 

[Kristofer68SS]

yo kristofer

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/103045-phera-supdrol-layout-5.html#post1540248

some studies goin on over there, may wanna look

yeah, hence the phrase "the bum rush"

"gang tackle" lol

read from post #1......

Actually that thread isnt all that bad.........Its actually pretty informative.

 

[Trauma1]

yeah, hence the phrase "the bum rush"

"gang tackle" lol

read from post #1......

Sounds like you're a bit too "sensitive" to me......

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Sounds like you're a bit too "sensitive" to me......

just your type. lol

must be the clomid.........

 

[crazilyfter42]

It seems like there is a lot of good information being shared in this thread regarding the nolva and clomid debate. I think those who are unsure what will work better need to try both and determine which is better for them. Remember different medications can react different with some people just like steriods can provide varied results and side effects among different folks. Also different cycles can call for different pct approaches just like someone previously mentioned. Something to think about also is the studies posted were not done on bodybuilders who were using AAS and attempting to recover afterwards. Now I am not saying those studies have no merit in this discussion b/c they do but they arent 100 percent relative either.
Speaking from personal experience b/c I have used both of these serms I feel they both work but have different positives and negatives, for me anyway. Clomid seems to give me a more immediate response(about 2 days) with things like libido and the recovery of testicular size. Where nolva takes a few days longer(somewhere in the 5-7 day neighborhood). But clomid gives me headaches and appetite loss where nolva does not seem to do this much. But my libido seems higher on clomid although it rises on nolva also. Acne is a small problem when I use either but I just attribute that to hormonal imbalances and increases. I don't have any bloodwork to support these findings though or what worked better. Also I havent tried both with the exact same cycle either so the fact that some compounds and time durations using them can be harsher on the hpta also skews these comparisons. This is one of those topics that I am really interested in. I hope more research is made on it with more relevance to body building.

 

[dinoiii]

of course we all appreciate your input and your help. the fact that you have extensive knowledge on the subject is great. i like hearing from you and seeing those studies you provide i would also like to see studies that D_ said nolva only helped in the long term vs short term as im very interested in hearing that

its a double edged sword in this case. they both work to increase test, yet they both have their problems.

i see nolva having the huge disadvantage in the IGF1 department.

Not only does your last comment represent one issue, but the direction of post-cycle therapeutics centers on restoration of endocrinologic disarray as such is caused by the length of many cycles (inherently, there is presentation in that regard in many instances). However, just as the attenuation you speak of in the IGF-1 department is true, so is the selective estrogen agonistic offering of Nolva and other respective SERMs that leads to continued issues of post-cycle crash.

One thing PP isn't acknowledging still is the issue I have already mentioned of spontaneous recovery which would be achieved with cessation of a cycle with or without the SERM. This dictates the route parody as expressed by many in this lifestyle. Somehow, I am not apparently getting across the fact that I deal with this on a daily basis, but again - I encourage exploration outside the confines of here on occasion. I know PP is a board sponsor at LB as well and I would anticipate if this to be significant issue, he would join some of the debates in that atmosphere.

Nonetheless, the true confounding varibale and reliable indicator of why so many are confused is usually the fact that someone reads and posts conflicting study data rather than look at everything outside the confines of vaccum mentality.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Clomid seems to give me a more immediate response(about 2 days) with things like libido and the recovery of testicular size. Where nolva takes a few days longer(somewhere in the 5-7 day neighborhood). But clomid gives me headaches and appetite loss where nolva does not seem to do this much.

One could take this suggestion a step further and evaluate whether absence of suggested side effect bled into efficacy. One intriguing event is that we are not acknowledging suggested "research chems" versus reality offering.

But my libido seems higher on clomid although it rises on nolva also. Acne is a small problem when I use either but I just attribute that to hormonal imbalances and increases.

A fair estimate actually.

I don't have any bloodwork to support these findings though or what worked better.

Probably ok as most don't have lab studies to support their offerings either, which is usually evident in these types of threads again compounding the problem.

Also I havent tried both with the exact same cycle either so the fact that some compounds and time durations using them can be harsher on the hpta also skews these comparisons. This is one of those topics that I am really interested in. I hope more research is made on it with more relevance to body building.

Research will never explore this for a few reasons actually, but likely most importantly because medical illness is not something that will benefit from it, and to mainstream medicine this is downright freightening.

I am not condoning either position, just suggesting copious tallies of literature will not run amok in my estimation due to the storied past of anabolic steroid use post- control acts 1990 and 2004.

I wouldn't assume this to be surprising to many though.


D_

 

[Ziquor]

It always puzzled me why people put such a stress on the fact that tamoxifen decreases IGF-1 levels when all SERMs have been shown to do so, and at about the exact same extent (20-25%). This small decrease could likely be reversed by GABA or L-Dopa anyhow in PCT.

 

[crazyfool405]

It always puzzled me why people put such a stress on the fact that tamoxifen decreases IGF-1 levels when all SERMs have been shown to do so, and at about the exact same extent (20-25%). This small decrease could likely be reversed by GABA or L-Dopa anyhow in PCT.

i posted a study that showed a 50 percent decreas with nolva....

 

[Ziquor]

i posted a study that showed a 50 percent decreas with nolva....

Where and under what conditions?

I posted one with Clomid decreasing over 30%. The #'s seem to slightly differ with different variables, not that it's going to have much impact on a male PCT.

 

[crazilyfter42]

One could take this suggestion a step further and evaluate whether absence of suggested side effect bled into efficacy. One intriguing event is that we are not acknowledging suggested "research chems" versus reality offering.

Good point I am sure there would be a noticable difference here. I unfortunately only have experience with the research chems with my comparisons.

It is a shame that relevant research will never occur with respect to recovery concerning body building and aas use. But I guess that is an unrealistic goal as it definately would not fly in todays society. Not to mention it lacks any medical benefit like you mentioned.

 

[Ziquor]

I’m sorry you took the comment of “misinformation” so personally. This thread is a debate about Clomid and Nolvadex -- and I felt the information in your quote was inaccurate.

My view is that Clomid is inferior to Nolvadex for male hormonal restoration, since clomid has inherent problems as I have mentioned previously.

You said short-term Nolvadex therpy either has no effect or causes a drop in LH, FSH and Testosterone. I have seen only the contrary – highly significant increases in LH, FSH and Testosterone in relatively short periods of time.

-Pp

This is one of the few where 'normal' men were actually subject to testing as opposed to females with cancer or ovulation issues. William Lewellyn and Bill Roberts used data from studies similar to this to demonstrate why they prefer Nolva over Clomid as well.

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

 

[dinoiii]

This is one of the few where 'normal' men were actually subject to testing as opposed to females with cancer or ovulation issues. William Lewellyn and Bill Roberts used data from studies similar to this to demonstrate why they prefer Nolva over Clomid as well.

Unfortunately, such data has not been replicated since the late 70's/early 80's, because the classes of persons are different.

AND, you should understand that IF something works at the level of the pituitary, it should cause negative feedback into the hypothalamus. What would this happen to say about Nolva? Likely that it isn't producing the effect you think it would - it only speaks about E2 receptors at the level of the hypothalamus, but also androgenic receptors as wrongly pontificated by the study authors and what points out how wrong it is to blindly accept just a study or two and call it a day in the research world.

Fortunately, some of the only true literature case-reports with bodybuilders in post-cycle therapeutics center on clomid, since 2003.


Here's the initial case-report showing clomid raising test after steroid use (this isn't on rat models and it sure as hell ain't on oligospermic teens...YAWN!).


Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5 Related Articles, Links

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.



D_

 

[ImJ2x]

Dr. Houser-
Do you believe that ATD can be used effectively to treat gyno?
[A simple yes or no will do, lol.]

 

[dinoiii]

Dr. Houser-
Do you believe that ATD can be used effectively to treat gyno?

Depends on what we are talking about. The long and short of what I think you want to hear is a very emphatic NO, but let me expound the scenario and this thread and bring up copious tallies of things not often discussed which you will probably think I do to confuse many even more, but reality is, I bring it up because for complete correction in the most expedited fashion, you must consider ALL of these factors....


[1] As far as physiologic gyno, maybe if ATD's proposed suicidal inhibition is accurate, though I don't buy it when a non-vested interest party tests it out.

[2] As far as pathologic associated with post-cycling...I think its a bit more of a stretch as an AI is only part of the equation. What about rejuvination of the issue at the base which we have been talking about this entire thread (i.e. - SERMs)? What about hCG injection protocols?



Furthermore...

What kind of gyno prevention are we talking about?

From varying therapeutic standpoints, pain and size are two important criteria we often discuss in the literature. Is the gyno painful, is it not? Is the gyno above 5cm in diameter (a VERY important diagnostic criteria that is not talked about on bb message circuits because - let's face it, it is not understood by those that talk about it)?



I mean, there has been a lot of talk in this very thread about gonadotropins (LH, FSH), but what happens when serum gonadotropins are dubbed "inappropriately normal?" Why is it we are stopping at this evaluation. Theoretically, if a cycle stretched a certain duration and the agent did what it was supposed to, serum gonadotropins should be off - though this is NOT always the case.

What about fats/cholesterol? What about that - we often see silly prescription on message boards for Red Yeast Rice which would only delay androgenic renovation. If anyone understands the concept, this is the LAST thing that you'd want to do - delay androgenic precursor. What's funny is I hear the same people who blasphemize statin drugs apparent proponents of monocolins in RYR? What the hell sort of sense does this make?

What about DHEA or DHEA-S; what is their role? How many people understand the intimate connection between the HPTA and HPAA?



D_

 

[dinoiii]

Dr. Houser-
Do you believe that ATD can be used effectively to treat gyno?
[A simple yes or no will do, lol.]

If it wasn't clear...btw...NO!


D_

 

[Pemmican]

All I can say from personal experience is that nolva does bring the boys back but libido takes several weeks after cessation to return. Clomid also brings them back, notably faster, and the increase in libido is almost immediate. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of the endocrinology, each of them has very practical utility.

While it's true that AM tends to support the use of Nolva for pct, this is done for the practical aspect that it helps to prevent gyno while Clomid typically does not.

Toremifene is hands down, 10X better than Nolva at about 1/4 of it's toxicity. It brings back teste size and libido in 7-10 days.

isnt this because Toremifene is the active ingredient in nolva, at a higher concentration?

 

[ImJ2x]

If it wasn't clear...btw...NO!


D_

I figured you'd say that.
What if I told you that I developed the infamous Superdrol "delayed" gyno (pea-size, painful lump, with lactation), about 3 weeks after I ended PCT, and Gaspari's Novedex (purchased in a panic because I didn't have time to order anything through the mail) completely and rapidly eliminated the problem?

 

[dinoiii]

I figured you'd say that.
What if I told you that I developed the infamous Superdrol "delayed" gyno (pea-size, painful lump, with lactation), about 3 weeks after I ended PCT, and Gaspari's Novedex (purchased in a panic because I didn't have time to order anything through the mail) completely and rapidly eliminated the problem?

I'd tell you I don't believe the "delayed" gyno concept. You either have gyno or don't or you are likely one who witnessed spontaneous resolution versus what you think.

But again, I am not here to tell anyone what they want to hear, merely reality. I am usually viewed as evil as a result.


D_

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I'd tell you I don't believe the "delayed" gyno concept. You either have gyno or don't or you are likely one who witnessed spontaneous resolution versus what you think.

But again, I am not here to tell anyone what they want to hear, merely reality. I am usually viewed as evil as a result.


D_

Yeah, and i got publicily lashed for stating the fact that many guys did ZERO pct with superdrol. Recovered and had Zero gyno.

I guess it was mere luck and not this wonderful machine called the human body, stabilizing itself.

You D, are the devil.

 

[ImJ2x]

I'd tell you I don't believe the "delayed" gyno concept. You either have gyno or don't or you are likely one who witnessed spontaneous resolution versus what you think.

But again, I am not here to tell anyone what they want to hear, merely reality. I am usually viewed as evil as a result.


D_

If I didn't have gyno, what was it that "spontaneously" resolved?
And what if I told you it happened twice (once with each nip, on separate occassions) -- both times treated (very rapidly and successfully) with ATD? Have I actually been blessed twice with miraculous self-recovery, having nothing to do with the ATD?

 

[ImJ2x]

Yeah, and i got publicily lashed for stating the fact that many guys did ZERO pct with superdrol. Recovered and had Zero gyno.

I guess it was mere luck and not this wonderful machine called the human body, stabilizing itself.

You D, are the devil.

And you, sir, may be brain dead.
I dare you to cycle some Super, without any PCT whatsoever, and see how things turn out...

 

[Ziquor]

Unfortunately, such data has not been replicated since the late 70's/early 80's, because the classes of persons are different.

AND, you should understand that IF something works at the level of the pituitary, it should cause negative feedback into the hypothalamus. What would this happen to say about Nolva? Likely that it isn't producing the effect you think it would - it only speaks about E2 receptors at the level of the hypothalamus, but also androgenic receptors as wrongly pontificated by the study authors and what points out how wrong it is to blindly accept just a study or two and call it a day in the research world.

Fortunately, some of the only true literature case-reports with bodybuilders in post-cycle therapeutics center on clomid, since 2003.


Here's the initial case-report showing clomid raising test after steroid use (this isn't on rat models and it sure as hell ain't on oligospermic teens...YAWN!).


Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5 Related Articles, Links

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.



D_

That's all fine speculation but even studies aside I've used both with nearly identical results, if anything slightly quicker bounce back of the boys with Tamoxifen. And though I've yet to use Torem (chloro-tamoxifen) the numerous I know who've had seem to think recovery is better than both Clomid & Nolva. Maybe it was placebo effect.

 

[dinoiii]

If I didn't have gyno, what was it that "spontaneously" resolved?

I said "delayed" gyno was a far stretch concept and NOT acccepted by me. I am uncertain what you had as I am unfamiliar with your case - it could have been Lipomastia for all I know. Please do not put words in my mouth or on the screen that certainly are not there.

And what if I told you it happened twice (once with each nip, on separate occassions) -- both times treated (very rapidly and successfully) with ATD? Have I actually been blessed twice with miraculous self-recovery, having nothing to do with the ATD?

My answer here would obviously not change as I have not physically evaluated you at any point in time. And, no not through internet diagnostics either. I am going by what you are saying. But, I will say this - spontaneous recovery happens much more frequently than you think as why the current standard of medical care remains "watchful waiting" at present. IF I ever evaluated you, I am much more aggressive, however - but usually, it is more a patient-satisfaction concept versus reality.

As far as SERMs are concened, they have data to support they can certainly hasten PAINFUL gyno (NO, not size estimates as so many mistakingly claim). These are through controlled trials, by the way. At present, there is NO designation for "delayed" gyno - stop trying to create your own science.

And so we are fair because you have been seemingly enticed in attempt to egg me on since your very first post in this thread. If it were anyone else claiming the same thing, I would tell them the same damn thing as this concept has also been one rehashed time and again, likely since well before you even picked up weights, I am sure.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

That's all some great speculation but I've used both with nearly identical results, if anything slightly quicker bounce back of the boys with Tamoxifen. And though I've yet to use Torem (chloro-tamoxifen) the numerous I know who've had seem to think recovery is better than both Clomid & Nolva.

Unfortunately, I am not interested in "research chem" use either.


D_

 

[Ziquor]

Yeah, and i got publicily lashed for stating the fact that many guys did ZERO pct with superdrol. Recovered and had Zero gyno.

I guess it was mere luck and not this wonderful machine called the human body, stabilizing itself.

You D, are the devil.

Wow, please point me to this data - VERY interesting.

 

[ImJ2x]

I said "delayed" gyno was a far stretch concept and NOT acccepted by me. I am uncertain what you had as I am unfamiliar with your case - it could have been Lipomastia for all I know. Please do not put words in my mouth or on the screen that certainly are not there.




My answer here would obviously not change as I have not physically evaluated you at any point in time. And, no not through internet diagnostics either. I am going by what you are saying. But, I will say this - spontaneous recovery happens much more frequently than you think as why the current standard of medical care remains "watchful waiting" at present. IF I ever evaluated you, I am much more aggressive, however - but usually, it is more a patient-satisfaction concept versus reality.

As far as SERMs are concened, they have data to support they can certainly hasten PAINFUL gyno (NO, not size estimates as so many mistakingly claim). These are through controlled trials, by the way. At present, there is NO designation for "delayed" gyno - stop trying to create your own science.

And so we are fair because you have been seemingly enticed in attempt to egg me on since your very first post in this thread. If it were anyone else claiming the same thing, I would tell them the same damn thing as this concept has also been one rehashed time and again, likely since well before you even picked up weights, I am sure.


D_

I "picked up weights" more than 30 years ago. I speak from personal experience. And I absolutely assure you I suffered delayed gyno twice. And absolutely guarantee you it was handled very effectively with ATD. I don't claim it will work equally for everyone, but it certainly worked for me.
And by the way, you will never "evaluate" me. I have been so decidedly unimpressed with your postings on this forum, that it has made me question if you are actually who you claim to be. There's an old saying ya'll may be familiar with: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." "Doctor" my ass -- quack quack.

 

[crazyfool405]

Unfortunately, I am not interested in "research chem" use either.


D_

so you like the herbal , and OTC AIs and hCG???

not asking for specific protocol just what you favor on most your cycles

 

[Ziquor]

Unfortunately, I am not interested in "research chem" use either.


D_

Cool me either. I've never used them and never would. Some of these 'research chems' aren't even stable in liquid form.

 

[dinoiii]

I "picked up weights" more than 30 years ago. I speak from personal experience. And I absolutely assure you I suffered delayed gyno twice. And absolutely guarantee you it was handled very effectively with ATD. I don't claim it will work equally for everyone, but it certainly worked for me.
And by the way, you will never "evaluate" me. I have been so decidedly unimpressed with your postings on this forum, that it has made me question if you are actually who you claim to be. There's an old saying ya'll may be familiar with: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." "Doctor" my ass -- quack quack.

Funny, I am actually the only one who places my name in forum sig here.

I have nothing to hide - who is it you say you are again???


You post illustrates some of the most misconstued info on the planet. Let's think: "ATD cured my delayed gyno." :toofunny: Holy Christ, please tell me you aren't serious.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Cool me either. I've never used them and never would. Some of these 'research chems' aren't even stable in liquid form.

You'd think some of the rocket scientisits on these forums would understand that. But, instead we get - there is little need to make fake ones. Wow - outside of being an apparent quote out of Mr. Llewelyn's book, this is not true as they have been tested, but hey what the hell do I know. People aren't in anything to make extra dollars.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

so you like the herbal , and OTC AIs and hCG???

not asking for specific protocol just what you favor on most your cycles

Herbal AIs - hmmmm...I3C holds mild AI properties, but still I don't think herbal standards are up to par enough yet to call it a day with them alone, but I am not adverse to using them as adjuncts.

SAMe possess some AI properties (alongside liver protectant aid, etc...), Vitamin D possesses some AI properties, but again, I am unsure I think these latter two shouldn't be used almost universally year round per se.


D_

 

[xtyler]

A few years ago I used to go on cycle for 6 weeks(usually Test E+DBOL or oral Winny),then 6 weeks pct,then again.All year round. I always had bloodworks in pct(week 4). I always used clomid for just 2 weeks tapered down and nothing else.
My testosterone always recovered quickly and fully.
The only failed pct was with nolva.
Just my experience.

 

[crazyfool405]

Cool me either. I've never used them and never would. Some of these 'research chems' aren't even stable in liquid form.

my question above stands for you too

 

[ImJ2x]

Funny, I am actually the only one who places my name in forum sig here.

I have nothing to hide - who is it you say you are again???


You post illustrates some of the most misconstued info on the planet. Let's think: "ATD cured my delayed gyno." :toofunny: Holy Christ, please tell me you aren't serious.


D_

ATD cured my delayed gyno. I am very serious. And honest. Can you say the same?

 

[dinoiii]

A few years ago I used to go on cycle for 6 weeks(usually Test E+DBOL or oral Winny),then 6 weeks pct,then again.All year round. I always had bloodworks in pct(week 4). I always used clomid for just 2 weeks tapered down and nothing else.
My testosterone always recovered quickly and fully.
The only failed pct was with nolva.
Just my experience.

If only you used that there ATD; I hear it can completely "cure (no doubt)" gyno.


D_