I'm a Carnivore

[muscleupcrohn]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16118484/

Oxidative stress has been considered to be a common pathogenetic factor of diabetic nephropathy. But the reason why renal cells are susceptible to oxidative injury in diabetes is not clear. Vitamin C plays a central role in the antioxidant defense system and exists in two major forms. The charged form, ascorbate, is taken up into cells via sodium-dependent facilitated transport. The uncharged form, dehydroascorbate, enters cells via glucose transporter and is then converted back to ascorbate within these cells. Because dehydroascorbate and glucose compete for glucose transporters, hyperglycemia will exclude vitamin C from the cell and resulted in a decreased antioxidant capacity in some cell type that is dehydroascorbate dependent. As such, we hypothesized that some renal cells were dehydroascorbate dependent and the susceptibility of renal cells to glucose-induced injury was mediated by hyperglycemic exclusion of dehydroascorbate uptake through competing for glucose transporter. The aims of the present study were to determine whether tubular epithelial cell was dehydroascorbate dependent and the effect of dehydroascorbate on the production of reactive oxygen species in cells incubated by high glucose.

Practical application of this? Perhaps only in hyperglycemia? I’m not doubting that there is some level of competition, only asking what the significance of this is. For example, if a normal diet needs 10mg/day C, how many mg would be needed for a low carb diet? Is it actually a relevant amount less? I am not aware of any research showing this.

I’m not sure it even matters though, as the most likely reason why Inuits don’t get scurvy isn’t because not eating carbs reduces their need for C, but that their diet provides enough C to prevent it anyway.

 

[SFreed]

Was it raw?

Had some raw (partially frozen) and boiled. Actually preferred it raw. They also pickle it, or so I was told.

 

[HIT4ME]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16118484/

Oxidative stress has been considered to be a common pathogenetic factor of diabetic nephropathy. But the reason why renal cells are susceptible to oxidative injury in diabetes is not clear. Vitamin C plays a central role in the antioxidant defense system and exists in two major forms. The charged form, ascorbate, is taken up into cells via sodium-dependent facilitated transport. The uncharged form, dehydroascorbate, enters cells via glucose transporter and is then converted back to ascorbate within these cells. Because dehydroascorbate and glucose compete for glucose transporters, hyperglycemia will exclude vitamin C from the cell and resulted in a decreased antioxidant capacity in some cell type that is dehydroascorbate dependent. As such, we hypothesized that some renal cells were dehydroascorbate dependent and the susceptibility of renal cells to glucose-induced injury was mediated by hyperglycemic exclusion of dehydroascorbate uptake through competing for glucose transporter. The aims of the present study were to determine whether tubular epithelial cell was dehydroascorbate dependent and the effect of dehydroascorbate on the production of reactive oxygen species in cells incubated by high glucose.

Yeah, so this gives some insight into a potential pathway leading to renal failure in diabetes I would say. Even given the abstract only it doesn't appear that this effect is even true of all renal cells.

Extrapolating into more general terms would be tough.

I will say that I would believe that elevated blood glucose may increase the need for Vitamin C, that isn't too hard to believe.

But we still have a minimal need for Vitamin C and we may be closer to that min. In low carb situations. It isn't necessarily that low carb decreased the need.

But the evidence I provided, and elsewhere, actually suggests that Vitamin C decreased blood glucose levels. Even if they were competitive for entry into the cells, increasing Vitamin C would shift that balance toward more C getting into the cells, which would cause an INCREASE in extracellular glucose in the blood, not a decrease. These findings suggest the competition is not a big part of the story.

Appreciate the discussion on this.

A few memes from SFreed and this thread will have something for everyone.

Practical application of this? Perhaps only in hyperglycemia? I’m not doubting that there is some level of competition, only asking what the significance of this is. For example, if a normal diet needs 10mg/day C, how many mg would be needed for a low carb diet? Is it actually a relevant amount less? I am not aware of any research showing this.

I’m not sure it even matters though, as the most likely reason why Inuits don’t get scurvy isn’t because not eating carbs reduces their need for C, but that their diet provides enough C to prevent it anyway.

Granted, many people believe in magic when it comes to the big C...but minimums and optimism are very different. And avoiding one obvious disease doesn't mean you have enough to avoid other issues. But your point is still taken.

 

[AlexPowell]

Practical application of this? Perhaps only in hyperglycemia? I’m not doubting that there is some level of competition, only asking what the significance of this is. For example, if a normal diet needs 10mg/day C, how many mg would be needed for a low carb diet? Is it actually a relevant amount less? I am not aware of any research showing this.

I’m not sure it even matters though, as the most likely reason why Inuits don’t get scurvy isn’t because not eating carbs reduces their need for C, but that their diet provides enough C to prevent it anyway.

Yeah sorry, no studies done on exclusive meat eaters

 

[AlexPowell]

Squats 75kg for 5 nice and explosive. Left glute still not firing to the extent it should - going to start doing glute activation each night

Laying hamstrings curls 5 sets 12 reps
Smith squats 6 sets of 12
Leg extensions 3 sets of 12

 

[AlexPowell]

Apparently 9 hours of sleep last night was not enough... Did the minimum today - bench press 55kg for 12 reps. Nothing to gain from pushing it hard today. I'll force feed myself today and increase my sodium in preparation for tomorrow instead

 

[HIT4ME]

Apparently 9 hours of sleep last night was not enough... Did the minimum today - bench press 55kg for 12 reps. Nothing to gain from pushing it hard today. I'll force feed myself today and increase my sodium in preparation for tomorrow instead

Funny - there is this very strange thing I have noted that happens a lot. Sometimes I am geared up and looking forward to my workout and excited to kill it, then I get there and somehow end up doing a crappy workout.

Other days I feel tired and wonder if I should skip. 75% of the time when I feel this way, if I push through I end up having a great workout.

Sleep is similar..unless it becomes extreme. If I get 3-4 hours at night and have to workout the next day, that is an extreme and I won't have a good workout. 5-8 hours I am good to go. 9 hours or whatever, when I think I should be all rested and ready - it turns into crappy workouts again.

 

[HIT4ME]

Apparently 9 hours of sleep last night was not enough... Did the minimum today - bench press 55kg for 12 reps. Nothing to gain from pushing it hard today. I'll force feed myself today and increase my sodium in preparation for tomorrow instead

Funny - there is this very strange thing I have noted that happens a lot. Sometimes I am geared up and looking forward to my workout and excited to kill it, then I get there and somehow end up doing a crappy workout.

Other days I feel tired and wonder if I should skip. 75% of the time when I feel this way, if I push through I end up having a great workout.

Sleep is similar..unless it becomes extreme. If I get 3-4 hours at night and have to workout the next day, that is an extreme and I won't have a good workout. 5-8 hours I am good to go. 9 hours or whatever, when I think I should be all rested and ready - it turns into crappy workouts again.

 

[AlexPowell]

Funny - there is this very strange thing I have noted that happens a lot. Sometimes I am geared up and looking forward to my workout and excited to kill it, then I get there and somehow end up doing a crappy workout.

Other days I feel tired and wonder if I should skip. 75% of the time when I feel this way, if I push through I end up having a great workout.

Sleep is similar..unless it becomes extreme. If I get 3-4 hours at night and have to workout the next day, that is an extreme and I won't have a good workout. 5-8 hours I am good to go. 9 hours or whatever, when I think I should be all rested and ready - it turns into crappy workouts again.

Yeah definitely. I'm pretty good at gauging if I'm going to get a good workout or not. If I'm not getting a decent pump, that's usually a good sign that things are not quite right and to take it easy. Sometimes it's as simple as having some sodium then waiting an hour

 

[Humble]

OP, I’m curious if you are having any issues with constipation. I’ve done a high protein, no carb diet and the constipation was, in a word, epic... Now I add high fiber carb treats (Quest bars) when going high protein, no carb. Thanks!

 

[AlexPowell]

OP, I’m curious if you are having any issues with constipation. I’ve done a high protein, no carb diet and the constipation was, in a word, epic... Now I add high fiber carb treats (Quest bars) when going high protein, no carb. Thanks!

No never. By the way don't get confused between constipation and simply not pooping.

Constipation: Impacted faeces in the colon. Extremely painful
Mud butt: Poop is the consistency of mud and you can never have enough toilet paper. Bidet / wet wipes required. Usually happens when you drink too much milk and not enough fibre
Carnivore: Pooping can happen every other day or every 3 days. There is no pain and the poops are small. You're not constipated and there is no pain

Keeping fats as 50-80% of your total calories should keep your poop fine. Every single mammal gets 50-80% of their calories from fats (fun trivia fact)
The more carbohydrate you consume the more fibre you require to keep things moving along

 

[AlexPowell]

Today I did deadlift. Worked up to a 180kg single. Did this as a test to see where I am really. There is a buttload of strength there and I feel like I can stiff leg up a lot more weight than this easily. Left glute is still not firing correctly (the side that had the impingement) so I need to keep doing the glute exercises each day

Finished with some stiff legged deadlifts, 6 sets of 10, then some pullups. Keeping the volume low to assist with recovery a bit but tomorrow and next week I should be training hard again!

 

[AlexPowell]

Good training day today.

Overhead press 37.5kg for 12 reps - putting the 1RM up to an estimated 52.5kg
Flat dumbbell bench - 4 sets
Face pulls 8 sets
Barbell curls 4 sets
French Press 3 sets
Hammer curls 2 sets
Laying triceps press 2 sets

 

[AlexPowell]

Had left over energy so I went back to the gym the afternoon

8 sets pulldowns, supersetted with dumbbell bench
8 sets chest supported rows

 

[AlexPowell]

Finding myself wanting more BBQ type cuts of meat than steaks... I wish I could afford rib eye steaks every day though. They are $30/kg in Australia - not like the CostCo prices you yanks have!

At the moment typically eating a lot of pulled pork shoulder, beef brisket, ribs, liver etc... I find the pork is nice for perhaps 5 minutes then I'm hungry again but physically can't eat so I'm preferring the beef whenever I can (pork is cheap though)

I'm going to also start training for the Concept 2 500m indoor row. This is pure glycolytic activity as it is a sprint for 1-2 minutes. I also feel I'll like it as cardio as well as it's essentially all about force production over a period of time. This should really test the limits of the carnivore diet! If I can get strong for my powerlifting 1 rep maxes, get strong in repping for 8-15 in weight training and get a good time in the 500m row then there is no disputing that my body is getting everything it needs despite zero carbohydrates or plants!

 

[AlexPowell]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826026

resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses.

METHODS:
Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated.

RESULTS:
LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT.

 

[Pinggolfee96]

better post pics of dat meat too lol. your toilet is gonna feel that diet too....

 

[AlexPowell]

better post pics of dat meat too lol. your toilet is gonna feel that diet too....

Everyone seems to be fascinated by poop - I am pooping far less on this diet. Poop is mainly fibre

 

[HIT4ME]

Everyone seems to be fascinated by poop - I am pooping far less on this diet. Poop is mainly fibre

We are just looking out for you buddy!

 

[HIT4ME]

This thread has inspired me to try a very modified version. It isn't really at all similar but watching this and thinking of some other things I have been researching, I have decided to really shift my focus to basically eating 300 grams of protein per day and 2 bags of broccoli. Beyond that I will allow myself anything I really feel like within reason. Not really structured beyond those basic rules.

This shift in focus over the past few days has actually already been an experience. The first thing is my mood has actually improved quite dramatically. The other thing is...I am not trying to eat in a deficit per se, but I am at approx. 1500 calories and 245 grams of protein so far today. And I haven't been hungry in the least.

And that is with 90 grams of that protein coming from shakes. That part was a little shocking because I usually find shakes don't fill me up very well and this aren't great for staying full in a diet - but 50 grams in a shake when I am eating so much protein already throughout the day really is filling.

I just ate a pound of lean beef in honor of you. Haha.

 

[AlexPowell]

This thread has inspired me to try a very modified version. It isn't really at all similar but watching this and thinking of some other things I have been researching, I have decided to really shift my focus to basically eating 300 grams of protein per day and 2 bags of broccoli. Beyond that I will allow myself anything I really feel like within reason. Not really structured beyond those basic rules.

This shift in focus over the past few days has actually already been an experience. The first thing is my mood has actually improved quite dramatically. The other thing is...I am not trying to eat in a deficit per se, but I am at approx. 1500 calories and 245 grams of protein so far today. And I haven't been hungry in the least.

And that is with 90 grams of that protein coming from shakes. That part was a little shocking because I usually find shakes don't fill me up very well and this aren't great for staying full in a diet - but 50 grams in a shake when I am eating so much protein already throughout the day really is filling.

I just ate a pound of lean beef in honor of you. Haha.

That's great man, I think if there is any "take home" from my way of eating, it's that most people need to be eating way more red meat than they already do!

I ripped out my old bathroom over the weekend - including removing all the tiles. My unit is on the second floor as well and the skip bin was outside in the car park. So I had to remove the tiles + cement over the bricks, then carry them down in 20-30kg lots downstairs and into the skip bin. The skip bin is 2 cubic metres, was full to the very top with tiles and cement after and it took me 16 hours to complete lol. The great thing is while I felt very, very tired afterwards I never actually "hit the wall" and could just keep going until the job was done

I didn't eat a lot that day and ate 12 beef sausages in the evening. To make up the calories this morning I made a latte with 300ml of thickened cream. This was actually awesome and somewhere in the region of 950-1000kcal. I then went to train straight afterwards and was able to get in a good session despite all the physical labour I've been doing. Definitely going to make the pre-workout 1000kcal fat bomb latte a regular. When it's time to cut body fat simply removing the lattes should be enough for a while as well.

Training:
Squat 72.5kg for 5 - everything in my glute is firing correctly now. I have severe ass DOMS from walking up and down a flight of stairs carrying 20-30kg loads all day so that probably helped a lot with glute activation

The smith machine was being used for some old dude doing something random in it so I did 7 sets on the leg press instead. It was hard to take my quads through the full ROM with this. I don't like leg press compared to squats.

 

[HIT4ME]

That's great man, I think if there is any "take home" from my way of eating, it's that most people need to be eating way more red meat than they already do!

I ripped out my old bathroom over the weekend - including removing all the tiles. My unit is on the second floor as well and the skip bin was outside in the car park. So I had to remove the tiles + cement over the bricks, then carry them down in 20-30kg lots downstairs and into the skip bin. The skip bin is 2 cubic metres, was full to the very top with tiles and cement after and it took me 16 hours to complete lol. The great thing is while I felt very, very tired afterwards I never actually "hit the wall" and could just keep going until the job was done

I didn't eat a lot that day and ate 12 beef sausages in the evening. To make up the calories this morning I made a latte with 300ml of thickened cream. This was actually awesome and somewhere in the region of 950-1000kcal. I then went to train straight afterwards and was able to get in a good session despite all the physical labour I've been doing. Definitely going to make the pre-workout 1000kcal fat bomb latte a regular. When it's time to cut body fat simply removing the lattes should be enough for a while as well.

Training:
Squat 72.5kg for 5 - everything in my glute is firing correctly now. I have severe ass DOMS from walking up and down a flight of stairs carrying 20-30kg loads all day so that probably helped a lot with glute activation

The smith machine was being used for some old dude doing something random in it so I did 7 sets on the leg press instead. It was hard to take my quads through the full ROM with this. I don't like leg press compared to squats.

As far as the red meat - I am a fan but I am not only eating meat really - like I said I'm inspired by this but it isn't that similar. I am shooting for 250-300 g of protein a day which is about 2 g per pound of lean body mass for me.

My take away is that I remember eating like this in college and swearing I did notice improvements...then I started believing that we dont need quite that much protein and supplement companies greatly influenced that thinking. Add in some of the high protein studies showing reduced lifespan and heart issues. I became more reserved and my goal became about 1 g per pound of lean mass.

At 2 g per pound I am feeling more motivated, more energetic, my workout last night was easier and I didn't drag through it, I am recovering faster and I really feel much less stressed to be honest. I am happier.

I want expecting the mental effects.

One downside is that I have some brain fog, but it is mild compared to going on most diets that limit carbs. I am not consciously limiting carbs - but prioritizing protein with low fat/carbs. If I want a banana or whatever, I eat it once I have my protein. I could still be adjusting and the fog will go away, but it is minor. I have dog from the stress in my life a lot too so maybe that is it.

And the thing about this is that I am eating under 2000 calories most days. So I am in a deficit. And prior to this I was probably over eating most days. So it isn't like it was a calorie/starvation issue and now I've increase my energy intake and things are turning around. I have likely been eating fewer calories now and things are turning around.

I've always said the only things that matter in a diet are calories and protein. Guess I should have gone further even.

As far as the project - that's a lot of work. When I do those projects something always goes wrong and it takes 3x longer than I thought it should. But they can be fun and rewarding too. 16 hours of work and still working out is tough. Good job. Impressed.

 

[AlexPowell]

As far as the red meat - I am a fan but I am not only eating meat really - like I said I'm inspired by this but it isn't that similar. I am shooting for 250-300 g of protein a day which is about 2 g per pound of lean body mass for me.

My take away is that I remember eating like this in college and swearing I did notice improvements...then I started believing that we dont need quite that much protein and supplement companies greatly influenced that thinking. Add in some of the high protein studies showing reduced lifespan and heart issues. I became more reserved and my goal became about 1 g per pound of lean mass.

At 2 g per pound I am feeling more motivated, more energetic, my workout last night was easier and I didn't drag through it, I am recovering faster and I really feel much less stressed to be honest. I am happier.

I want expecting the mental effects.

One downside is that I have some brain fog, but it is mild compared to going on most diets that limit carbs. I am not consciously limiting carbs - but prioritizing protein with low fat/carbs. If I want a banana or whatever, I eat it once I have my protein. I could still be adjusting and the fog will go away, but it is minor. I have dog from the stress in my life a lot too so maybe that is it.

And the thing about this is that I am eating under 2000 calories most days. So I am in a deficit. And prior to this I was probably over eating most days. So it isn't like it was a calorie/starvation issue and now I've increase my energy intake and things are turning around. I have likely been eating fewer calories now and things are turning around.

I've always said the only things that matter in a diet are calories and protein. Guess I should have gone further even.

As far as the project - that's a lot of work. When I do those projects something always goes wrong and it takes 3x longer than I thought it should. But they can be fun and rewarding too. 16 hours of work and still working out is tough. Good job. Impressed.

Yes - I know what you mean regarding the protein intake. Just because you don't "need" more protein doesn't mean that you won't benefit from eating the food that contains the protein in abundance! No need for carnitine, magnesium, ZMA, b-vitamin, BCAA, protein shake, calcium, iron supplementation on this diet! I read a lot here and many people are really taking a lot of things. I'd say a lot of people here are taking perhaps 10 or more supplements daily for one reason or another

I am finding that I do not need many calories on this way of eating either. Hard to believe but once I was eating 8000-9000 kcal a day and not gaining. When I did gain it was just gains in bloat. I was eating a lot of pasta and rice, pizzas that I'd add extra salami and cheese on etc lol. I was just doing seefood American slob diet as I was not gaining so thought I could just eat whatever.

I'm not eating that much now, around 2500kcal a day

 

[AlexPowell]

Today, bench press 50kg for 20 easy reps. Strength has now gone up a fair chunk. My last 3 bench sessions were 50x15, 52.5x15 and 55x12
I will increase my upper body pushing volume by 2 sets per week for chest, triceps, shoulders, biceps. I will place the extra volume onto my overhead press day.

Finished with pin presses, worked up in singles to 65kg (these are harder than expected)
5 sets dumbbell bench
4 sets incline flies
4 sets barbell curls (moved up to a 10kg plate either side of the ez bar)
3 sets french press
3 sets hammer curls
2 sets laying triceps extensions

 

[AlexPowell]

Concept 2 indoor rowing training started today - the goal is to get the best 500m time I can. For reference, the WR is 1:10

Didn't pay attention to time and set the units to Watts. This will be easier for me to progress because then I can just focus on increasing my peak Wattage and increasing my average Wattage at the same time.

Never sat on one of these before or done any rowing! I rowed 500m to warm up at a pace I felt I could do 2000m with and that took 2:16

To start my training off, I will do intervals of 20 seconds sprinting, 40 seconds "resting" (2000m pace). I could only do 3 intervals today until I was pooped. I will keep working on simply doing more intervals until I can do 10 intervals like this. After that, I will cycle 3 different workouts.

Workout 1: 15 seconds sprinting, 45 seconds cruising, 10 rounds
Workout 2: 30 seconds sprinting, 2 minutes 30 cruising, 6 rounds
Workout 3: 45 seconds sprinting, 3 minutes 15 cruising, 4 rounds

The two things that I will chase are improving my peak Wattage during the sprints and my average Wattage during the cruises

 

[hairygrandpa]

Your last post is too theoretical for me, lol. I just go to the gym and lift the damn iron. Sometimes heavy, sometimes volume, depending how I feel.
Only thing I watch is any sort of progression, more weight, more reps -or more sets.
No Wattage, Voltage or horsepower measured.

 

[AlexPowell]

Your last post is too theoretical for me, lol. I just go to the gym and lift the damn iron. Sometimes heavy, sometimes volume, depending how I feel.
Only thing I watch is any sort of progression, more weight, more reps -or more sets.
No Wattage, Voltage or horsepower measured.

Ha ha, this is a rowing machine though. Not like a Hammer Strength rowing machine but an ergometer
I basically have no capacity for glycolytic strength at the moment. I can sprint for 10 seconds then I'm dead. My aerobic capacity is very good but as soon as I hit the lactate threshold I'm done.

The reason I do this is the main criticism of zero carb dieting is lack of glycogen. If I can get good at activity that absolutely requires glycogen to be good at it then this will prove it wrong

 

[AlexPowell]

Today deadlift, 105kg for 5 reps. This might not seem like much and may be confusing for a few people why I am lifting so little on squat and deadlift. I can feel myself getting stronger using these weights even though they are small. Sam Byrd had a similar system called CAT. I feel like I can deadlift around 200kg at the moment. As I am getting stronger doing these weights I'm wanton to increase the training loads just yet

Afterwards I did 5 sets of RDL, 7 sets of pulldowns, 7 sets of rows

 

[hairygrandpa]

Today deadlift, 105kg for 5 reps. This might not seem like much and may be confusing for a few people why I am lifting so little on squat and deadlift. I can feel myself getting stronger using these weights even though they are small. Sam Byrd had a similar system called CAT. I feel like I can deadlift around 200kg at the moment. As I am getting stronger doing these weights I'm wanton to increase the training loads just yet

Afterwards I did 5 sets of RDL, 7 sets of pulldowns, 7 sets of rows

You're right... 105kg, I'd probably curl with it.

 

[AlexPowell]

Here is a good video from back in the day. This is what I am chasing back to!

[video=youtube;5FUUhYk2KNE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FUUhYk2KNE[/video]

 

[AlexPowell]

Overhead Press: 35kg for 5 then 50kg for a triple
5 sets of ring dips
4 sets of barbell curls
4 sets of french press
4 sets of hammer curls
3 sets of lying triceps extensions

[video=youtube;sqxWyXmP2ok]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqxWyXmP2ok[/video]

 

[hairygrandpa]

Overhead Press: 35kg for 5 then 50kg for a triple
5 sets of ring dips
4 sets of barbell curls
4 sets of french press
4 sets of hammer curls
3 sets of lying triceps extensions

[video=youtube;sqxWyXmP2ok]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqxWyXmP2ok[/video]

The struggle is real, LOL.
You will be strong again in no time, can see your dedication!

 

[AlexPowell]

Yesterday did squats - 77.5kg for 5
Today bench press - 55kg for 16 reps

 

[AlexPowell]

Photos taken 16 days apart

 

[AlexPowell]

[video=youtube;HcCTcVPFTPM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcCTcVPFTPM[/video]

 

[AlexPowell]

Today I cut my hair

Also did deadlifts, 5x110kg - I think I'll test my deadlift next session, see where I am at and then increase my weights
5 sets RDL
7 sets pulldowns
7 sets rows

 

[AlexPowell]

Overhead press - 37.5kg for 12 reps - the same number of reps I got 2 weeks ago
Dips 4 sets
Face pulls 8 sets
Biceps curls 5 sets
French press 4 sets
Hammer curls 4 sets
Laying triceps extensions 3 sets

Going to add another set per week to dips + all arms work as I am recovering just fine and weights are going up

 

[Whisky]

This study (albeit small) would appear to back up your red meat health claims Alex....

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/tip-surprise-red-meat-improves-health?utm_********facebook&************social&utm_**********article7437

 

[AlexPowell]

Squat - worked up to 130kg. This felt great. I'll up my training weights for squats now to around 85-95% of this and start progressing from there
Smith squats 7 sets
Laying leg curls 5 sets
Leg extensions 3 sets

 

[AlexPowell]

[video=youtube;evGFWRXEzz8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evGFWRXEzz8[/video]

 

[AlexPowell]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_diabetes_mellitus_successfully_managed_with_the_paleolithic_ketogenic_diet

Type 1 diabetic

" The patient was suggested to switch to the paleolithicketogenic diet which he initiated on December 21, 2013.
From this time, he was also taking 5,000 IU of vitamin D3 but nothing else as supplement. His diet consisted of meat, organ meat, fat and eggs. In his diet, red and fat meats dominated over lean meats. He was eating vegetables in insignificant amounts. His diet had a ketogenic ratio (fat : protein + carbohydrate) of at least 2:1. No oil of plant origin or artificial sweeteners were allowed. The patient was under our close control and reported daily food records and blood glucose levels. Upon shifting toward the paleolithic ketogenic diet glucose levels returned to normal and no major elevations were seen postprandially either. Insulin was therefore discontinued. "

 

[Newth]

So how the **** did I miss five pages of this!

Nice job Alex. Really good to see someone doing something so different to test what happens.

Any idea if any meats absorb faster or have an better amino profile to create a faster or higher rate of gluconeogenesis?
This could be used to control insulin in theory.

 

[AlexPowell]

So how the **** did I miss five pages of this!

Nice job Alex. Really good to see someone doing something so different to test what happens.

Any idea if any meats absorb faster or have an better amino profile to create a faster or higher rate of gluconeogenesis?
This could be used to control insulin in theory.

As a rundown for gluconeogenesis:
Rate is fairly stable regardless of diet (unless you're T1/2)
Always happening ketosis or not
Very little protein is used in it, pyruvate, lactate, glycerol seem to be preferred

 

[Newth]

As a rundown for gluconeogenesis:
Rate is fairly stable regardless of diet (unless you're T1/2)
Always happening ketosis or not
Very little protein is used in it, pyruvate, lactate, glycerol seem to be preferred

Ok cool.
How about high in a amino that could spike insulin or is that effect lost through the whole food thing?

 

[AlexPowell]

Ok cool.
How about high in a amino that could spike insulin or is that effect lost through the whole food thing?

There is a lot of interest around gluconeogenesis and meats effect on insulin and how zero carbers can have decent glycogen levels
However it is my personal opinion that it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people like to think

There is no evidence that eating any amounts of amino acids will throw you out of ketosis (even though ketosis is not the goal of this diet!)
Gluconeogenesis is fairly consistent no matter what you're eating, so the insulin response from gluconeogenesis will be the same no matter what you're eating

Insulin:Glucagon ratio is probably more important, as this ultimately decides if you're anabolic or catabolic
As when low carb dieting insulin is low, IGF-1 is likely involved more than insulin in determining if you're anabolic or catabolic as IGF-1 and Insulin work on all the same receptors (just different affinity)
Studies have shown that increasing protein increases IGF-1, irrespective of other factors / macronutrients

So as far as gaining muscle goes, if your IGF-1 is higher than glucagon, mTOR is activated and you're signalling to rebuild
IGF-1+Insulin will be greater than glucagon if protein is high and calories are sufficient

This is the main reason why I don't like traditional ketogenic diet ratios and why people typically did not think a ketogenic diet is good for gaining mass - the protein is not high enough to stimulate IGF-1 and the amount of fat being consumed stimulates glucagon. In the absence of insulin then well - you just poop the extra calories out

 

[HIT4ME]

As a rundown for gluconeogenesis:
Rate is fairly stable regardless of diet (unless you're T1/2)
Always happening ketosis or not
Very little protein is used in it, pyruvate, lactate, glycerol seem to be preferred

AlexPowell - you have unique and interesting ideas so I'm sorry if my challenges come out wrong at all. I'm not so much about being right or wrong. You also seem to be able to back up what you say with reasoning so I appreciate that and if I'm singling you out over a couple threads here, it's because you have the courage to be an independant thinker and I applaud that.

But gluconeogenesis is definately effected by what you eat. Insulin is one factor that down-regulates gluconeogenesis, so anything you eat that induces an insulin response will limit gluconeogenesis. This, of course, makes sense. You wouldn't want your liver releasing MORE glucose into the blood stream if you already don't have enough insulin to store that glucose. This is part of how we maintain blood sugar levels so tightly.

Ok cool.
How about high in a amino that could spike insulin or is that effect lost through the whole food thing?

People fear insulin, but it's appropriate release isn't a problem. As I said above, spiking insulin will reduce gluconeogenesis.

There is a lot of interest around gluconeogenesis and meats effect on insulin and how zero carbers can have decent glycogen levels
However it is my personal opinion that it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people like to think

There is no evidence that eating any amounts of amino acids will throw you out of ketosis (even though ketosis is not the goal of this diet!)
Gluconeogenesis is fairly consistent no matter what you're eating, so the insulin response from gluconeogenesis will be the same no matter what you're eating

Insulin:Glucagon ratio is probably more important, as this ultimately decides if you're anabolic or catabolic
As when low carb dieting insulin is low, IGF-1 is likely involved more than insulin in determining if you're anabolic or catabolic as IGF-1 and Insulin work on all the same receptors (just different affinity)
Studies have shown that increasing protein increases IGF-1, irrespective of other factors / macronutrients

So as far as gaining muscle goes, if your IGF-1 is higher than glucagon, mTOR is activated and you're signalling to rebuild
IGF-1+Insulin will be greater than glucagon if protein is high and calories are sufficient

This is the main reason why I don't like traditional ketogenic diet ratios and why people typically did not think a ketogenic diet is good for gaining mass - the protein is not high enough to stimulate IGF-1 and the amount of fat being consumed stimulates glucagon. In the absence of insulin then well - you just poop the extra calories out

I agree with much of what you say - but I disagree with gluconeogenesis not being a big deal. I actually think it IS a big deal and I think people have it backwards. Gluconeogenesis is a big part of what makes ketogenic diets work - if you have to convert fat to carbs you lose a lot of energy in a very ineffient process that your body would prefer to avoid.

But I am not so sure about the bolded part of your statement - no evidence? I think it's pretty easy to test. Go on a ketogenic diet, get into ketosis and then after you're there just eat an extra 200 grams of protein and see if you say in ketosis. It's a test that anyone can run and observe.

I've noticed that even on a PSMF I don't go into ketosis - I typically keep my protein to about 150 grams while on that. I might get very mild ketosis, but never much more than that and I'll be in and out - but like you said, ketosis isn't the point of most diets and isn't necessary for anything. And again, gluconeogenesis may not ever stop 100% but it does fluctuate or we'd all be dead anytime we missed a meal or went on a keto diet. You pointed out yourself - people who are zero carbers still have glycogen in their blood, gluconeogenesis is how this happens and obviously someone who is eating carbs will have a lower rate of gluconeogenesis than that person.

 

[AlexPowell]

In a nutshell it's because amino acids are not the preferred source for GNG and no amount of GNG will throw you out of ketosis because it's demand driven not supply driven

More info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/8fy9c1/too_much_protein_will_throw_you_out_of_ketosis/

 

[AlexPowell]

The main thing to think about is what you define ketosis as
Is ketosis being able to measure ketones in the urine? Or is it the liver making ketones?

One can be tested easily, the other cannot. Less of one will happen the lower calories get also

 

[Newth]

There is a lot of interest around gluconeogenesis and meats effect on insulin and how zero carbers can have decent glycogen levels
However it is my personal opinion that it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people like to think

There is no evidence that eating any amounts of amino acids will throw you out of ketosis (even though ketosis is not the goal of this diet!)
Gluconeogenesis is fairly consistent no matter what you're eating, so the insulin response from gluconeogenesis will be the same no matter what you're eating

Insulin:Glucagon ratio is probably more important, as this ultimately decides if you're anabolic or catabolic
As when low carb dieting insulin is low, IGF-1 is likely involved more than insulin in determining if you're anabolic or catabolic as IGF-1 and Insulin work on all the same receptors (just different affinity)
Studies have shown that increasing protein increases IGF-1, irrespective of other factors / macronutrients

So as far as gaining muscle goes, if your IGF-1 is higher than glucagon, mTOR is activated and you're signalling to rebuild
IGF-1+Insulin will be greater than glucagon if protein is high and calories are sufficient

This is the main reason why I don't like traditional ketogenic diet ratios and why people typically did not think a ketogenic diet is good for gaining mass - the protein is not high enough to stimulate IGF-1 and the amount of fat being consumed stimulates glucagon. In the absence of insulin then well - you just poop the extra calories out

Thanks you very much.
I haven't put anywhere near the time into this as I would like to have yet. But I have had a feeling about keto and protein amount creating issues. Very interesting that fat total can influence this also.

 

[Newth]

AlexPowell - you have unique and interesting ideas so I'm sorry if my challenges come out wrong at all. I'm not so much about being right or wrong. You also seem to be able to back up what you say with reasoning so I appreciate that and if I'm singling you out over a couple threads here, it's because you have the courage to be an independant thinker and I applaud that.

But gluconeogenesis is definately effected by what you eat. Insulin is one factor that down-regulates gluconeogenesis, so anything you eat that induces an insulin response will limit gluconeogenesis. This, of course, makes sense. You wouldn't want your liver releasing MORE glucose into the blood stream if you already don't have enough insulin to store that glucose. This is part of how we maintain blood sugar levels so tightly.



People fear insulin, but it's appropriate release isn't a problem. As I said above, spiking insulin will reduce gluconeogenesis.



I agree with much of what you say - but I disagree with gluconeogenesis not being a big deal. I actually think it IS a big deal and I think people have it backwards. Gluconeogenesis is a big part of what makes ketogenic diets work - if you have to convert fat to carbs you lose a lot of energy in a very ineffient process that your body would prefer to avoid.

But I am not so sure about the bolded part of your statement - no evidence? I think it's pretty easy to test. Go on a ketogenic diet, get into ketosis and then after you're there just eat an extra 200 grams of protein and see if you say in ketosis. It's a test that anyone can run and observe.

I've noticed that even on a PSMF I don't go into ketosis - I typically keep my protein to about 150 grams while on that. I might get very mild ketosis, but never much more than that and I'll be in and out - but like you said, ketosis isn't the point of most diets and isn't necessary for anything. And again, gluconeogenesis may not ever stop 100% but it does fluctuate or we'd all be dead anytime we missed a meal or went on a keto diet. You pointed out yourself - people who are zero carbers still have glycogen in their blood, gluconeogenesis is how this happens and obviously someone who is eating carbs will have a lower rate of gluconeogenesis than that person.

Cheers, always good to hear your input. Between you both it is helping steer my thinking a better direction on a topic I need to spend more time on. You put some awesome effort into nutrition effects.
And make me need to learn more after most posts.