I'm a Carnivore

[AlexPowell]

There is this bro-science that you can't (or hardly can) gain muscles on a keto diet. Has to do with insulin response to carbs and whatnot. Wanna see if its true.

You don't need a huge insulin spike to gain muscle. The carbohydrate my body is making from gluconeogenesis is likely enough to trigger an insulin / glut4 response. My glycogen stores are full as far as I am aware - I do not feel flat and typical glycolytic activity like 8 sets of 15 reps on squats are being achieved just as easily as when I was eating a lot of carbohydrate

I think as long as glycogen stores are kept full there should be no issue with building muscle and muscle memory is giving me good strong gain so far. Bare in mind that my diet isn't "ketogenic". I may or may not be in ketosis I have no idea but that is not the point. The meat I am eating is typically 10-15% fat where as traditional ketogenic diets are 50-70% fat. I'm eating upwards of 400g of protein a day so there is likely a lot of gluconeogenesis going on to restore and add glycogen

 

[hairygrandpa]

You don't need a huge insulin spike to gain muscle. The carbohydrate my body is making from gluconeogenesis is likely enough to trigger an insulin / glut4 response. My glycogen stores are full as far as I am aware - I do not feel flat and typical glycolytic activity like 8 sets of 15 reps on squats are being achieved just as easily as when I was eating a lot of carbohydrate

I think as long as glycogen stores are kept full there should be no issue with building muscle and muscle memory is giving me good strong gain so far. Bare in mind that my diet isn't "ketogenic". I may or may not be in ketosis I have no idea but that is not the point. The meat I am eating is typically 10-15% fat where as traditional ketogenic diets are 50-70% fat. I'm eating upwards of 400g of protein a day so there is likely a lot of gluconeogenesis going on to restore and add glycogen

That's why I'm interested! Go, go, go -let see some gainz!

 

[AlexPowell]

I'll start dumping nutrition information in between training.
Full disclosure - I'm an IT shift worker doing a critical role for Australia's largest bank. I do two day shifts followed by two night shifts. Then I get 4 days off. These shifts are 12 hours long - 7 until 7.

Because it's an 8 day roster the week doesn't line up exactly. So I have four training days. I can't train on the day shifts. I can train during the day when I'm on night shift, however if that happens to be the weekend I do not train as I'll be with my family. The days off I'll train. So for this week I am working Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun. Because the night shifts are over the weekend I'll be doing all my training Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs

 

[hairygrandpa]

I'll start dumping nutrition information in between training.
Full disclosure - I'm an IT shift worker doing a critical role for Australia's largest bank. I do two day shifts followed by two night shifts. Then I get 4 days off. These shifts are 12 hours long - 7 until 7.

Because it's an 8 day roster the week doesn't line up exactly. So I have four training days. I can't train on the day shifts. I can train during the day when I'm on night shift, however if that happens to be the weekend I do not train as I'll be with my family. The days off I'll train. So for this week I am working Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun. Because the night shifts are over the weekend I'll be doing all my training Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs

I have a critical role too. I'm the one who has to feed 3 cats, without me they go hungry. LOL

 

[AlexPowell]

I have a critical role too. I'm the one who has to feed 3 cats, without me they go hungry. LOL

For me feeding the cat is easy as we have the same diet

 

[franks009]

For me feeding the cat is easy as we have the same diet

In more ways than one

 

[HIT4ME]

You don't need a huge insulin spike to gain muscle. The carbohydrate my body is making from gluconeogenesis is likely enough to trigger an insulin / glut4 response. My glycogen stores are full as far as I am aware - I do not feel flat and typical glycolytic activity like 8 sets of 15 reps on squats are being achieved just as easily as when I was eating a lot of carbohydrate

I think as long as glycogen stores are kept full there should be no issue with building muscle and muscle memory is giving me good strong gain so far. Bare in mind that my diet isn't "ketogenic". I may or may not be in ketosis I have no idea but that is not the point. The meat I am eating is typically 10-15% fat where as traditional ketogenic diets are 50-70% fat. I'm eating upwards of 400g of protein a day so there is likely a lot of gluconeogenesis going on to restore and add glycogen

I believe you are mostly right here...or maybe I don't understand something - but insulin causes glut4 translocation, not carbs.

But eating 400 grams of carbs means you probably have no chance of being in ketosis. 150 g of protein on a PSMF keeps me out of ketosis for the most part.

But maybe you will prove some of that wrong with this experiment.

 

[AlexPowell]

I believe you are mostly right here...or maybe I don't understand something - but insulin causes glut4 translocation, not carbs.

But eating 400 grams of carbs means you probably have no chance of being in ketosis. 150 g of protein on a PSMF keeps me out of ketosis for the most part.

But maybe you will prove some of that wrong with this experiment.

I believe a lot of people think that because insulin is required for GLUT4 signalling to store glycogen and build muscle that more insulin = better
I don't believe that is the case, especially not in physiological amounts.

Even the bodybuilders that use insulin, they are using it to return their blood glucose to normal levels which is elevated due to HGH use.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I believe a lot of people think that because insulin is required for GLUT4 signalling to store glycogen and build muscle that more insulin = better
I don't believe that is the case, especially not in physiological amounts.

Even the bodybuilders that use insulin, they are using it to return their blood glucose to normal levels which is elevated due to HGH use.

You the one who will proof us wrong -or right! Very interesting indeed. Personally, I expect only marginal lean muscle growth on that diet, even though strength might go up good.

 

[AlexPowell]

You the one who will proof us wrong -or right! Very interesting indeed. Personally, I expect only marginal lean muscle growth on that diet, even though strength might go up good.

The biggest hurdle I see is managing to eat enough calories

 

[HIT4ME]

I believe a lot of people think that because insulin is required for GLUT4 signalling to store glycogen and build muscle that more insulin = better
I don't believe that is the case, especially not in physiological amounts.

Even the bodybuilders that use insulin, they are using it to return their blood glucose to normal levels which is elevated due to HGH use.

Yeah - I was just saying that gluconeogenesis produced carbs won't translocate glut4. Insulin does, but insulin also inhibits gluconeogenesis.

Not saying it will have a big short term effect. Long term it may induce some insulin resistance.

The biggest hurdle I see is managing to eat enough calories

I bet. That's a lot of meat. (@sfreed - setting it up for you here )

 

[AlexPowell]

Yeah - I was just saying that gluconeogenesis produced carbs won't translocate glut4. Insulin does, but insulin also inhibits gluconeogenesis.

Not saying it will have a big short term effect. Long term it may induce some insulin resistance.



I bet. That's a lot of meat. (@sfreed - setting it up for you here )

Not exactly the most scientific thing I've said here but humans and our ancestors ate meat exclusively from 2.5 million - 10,000 BC
Without the ability to gain muscle in the complete absence of plants or carbohydrate we would not have survived. I might not be able to explain it correctly but we are the most adaptable animals in existence

I actually think the bigger more important question will be "How much fat will be gained"

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Not exactly the most scientific thing I've said here but humans and our ancestors ate meat exclusively from 2.5 million - 10,000 BC
Without the ability to gain muscle in the complete absence of plants or carbohydrate we would not have survived. I might not be able to explain it correctly but we are the most adaptable animals in existence

I actually think the bigger more important question will be "How much fat will be gained"

Exclusively meat? I know that it’s clear that humans developed/evolved to eat meat, and the ability to eat calorie-dense foods like meat played a role in our developing larger brains that require a lot of energy/fuel, but I don’t recall reading that humans ate EXCLUSIVELY meat, as in literally no fruits, vegetables, etc ever. Could they survive without them? Yeah, but when/if they did, I’d say it was likely out of necessity, not choice. Anyway, can you post up a source for the “only ate meat” claim please? I’m genuinely curious.

 

[AlexPowell]

Exclusively meat? I know that it’s clear that humans developed/evolved to eat meat, and the ability to eat calorie-dense foods like meat played a role in our developing larger brains that require a lot of energy/fuel, but I don’t recall reading that humans ate EXCLUSIVELY meat, as in literally no fruits, vegetables, etc ever. Could they survive without them? Yeah, but when/if they did, I’d say it was likely out of necessity, not choice. Anyway, can you post up a source for the “only ate meat” claim please? I’m genuinely curious.

Edible plants didn't exist in high quantities back then and most vegetables we eat these days have been selectively bred for more pulp. What they did have was root vegetables but they were incredibly woody and it would have been impossible for them to supply a large amount of calories from them

Now obviously I can't say that they never ate things that were not from an animal (that would be wrong) - but I definitely can say that humans would not be able to survive if they could not survive eating only meat

There is also not one single vitamin or mineral that humans need that cannot be found in meat
I'll try and find some good sources for you... There is plenty but I don't want to link up some time.com article - I want to find the real deal for you

 

[AlexPowell]

I have the information here for you but it's in PDF form. Please let me know how I can upload this or I can email it

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Edible plants didn't exist in high quantities back then and most vegetables we eat these days have been selectively bred for more pulp. What they did have was root vegetables but they were incredibly woody and it would have been impossible for them to supply a large amount of calories from them

Now obviously I can't say that they never ate things that were not from an animal (that would be wrong) - but I definitely can say that humans would not be able to survive if they could not survive eating only meat

There is also not one single vitamin or mineral that humans need that cannot be found in meat
I'll try and find some good sources for you... There is plenty but I don't want to link up some time.com article - I want to find the real deal for you

I’m not saying that humans can’t survive eating only meat, only that it’s not ideal and is more likely to lead to some nutritional imbalances than a more balanced diet. That doesn’t mean that it WILL lead to deficiencies, only that the potential is higher if you’re not careful about it. Also, I’d like to point out that survival of a species is different than optimal heath for an individual. The species may survive, but it may not be optimal, and some individuals may suffer or even die out.

I have the information here for you but it's in PDF form. Please let me know how I can upload this or I can email it

Was the PDF accessed from a website? You could link that up. Is it a published paper or study? If you post the name of it I can almost definitely get a full text myself. Thanks.

 

[AlexPowell]

I’m not saying that humans can’t survive eating only meat, only that it’s not ideal and is more likely to lead to some nutritional imbalances than a more balanced diet. That doesn’t mean that it WILL lead to deficiencies, only that the potential is higher if you’re not careful about it. Also, I’d like to point out that survival of a species is different than optimal heath for an individual. The species may survive, but it may not be optimal, and some individuals may suffer or even die out.

Was the PDF accessed from a website? You could link that up. Is it a published paper or study? If you post the name of it I can almost definitely get a full text myself. Thanks.

It's a powerpoint presentation from a PHD I have saved on my laptop. The title is called Homo Carnivorus by Barry Groves

 

[AlexPowell]

You don't need to be that careful about nutrition though on this diet. It's actually pretty easy. Steak, liver and eggs have a complete nutritional profile on their own

 

[AlexPowell]

[video=youtube;X2qdyKxU0YU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2qdyKxU0YU[/video]

 

[SkRaw85]

Plants and vegetation would also be seasonal. There would be months at a time almost exclusively meat unless reserves were had.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You don't need to be that careful about nutrition though on this diet. It's actually pretty easy. Steak, liver and eggs have a complete nutritional profile on their own

Thanks for posting it up. So you never have any fiber? Also, where are you getting your Vitamin C from? If I recall, liver only has a pretty small amount, as does milk. I’m not saying you absolutely need a lot of Vitamin C to be healthy, but it’s typically a good idea, and I don’t see any reason not to supplement a diet like this with some things like Vitamin C unless you just really care about the semantics of saying you eat nothing but meat, which itself already isn’t technically true if you’re eating spices and peppers, so why not add some basic vitamins?

 

[hairygrandpa]

Thanks for posting it up. So you never have any fiber? Also, where are you getting your Vitamin C from? If I recall, liver only has a pretty small amount, as does milk. I’m not saying you absolutely need a lot of Vitamin C to be healthy, but it’s typically a good idea, and I don’t see any reason not to supplement a diet like this with some things like Vitamin C unless you just really care about the semantics of saying you eat nothing but meat, which itself already isn’t technically true if you’re eating spices and peppers, so why not add some basic vitamins?

He mentioned eggs too.... and if milk is involved he could eat cheese too. It would be a animal based diet -not "meat only".

 

[muscleupcrohn]

He mentioned eggs too.... and if milk is involved he could eat cheese too. It would be a animal based diet -not "meat only".

Yeah, my mistake on the terminology, but I did address that even milk and eggs don't exactly contain a lot of Vitamin C. Then there's also the fiber issue. Of course, I'm not saying that it can't be done, only that it seems logical to at least add some Vitamin C and fiber, even if it would mean not technically following a 100% carnivore diet, which we've already established he's technically not doing if he's eating herbs, seasonings, and peppers.

 

[D3x]

People be nitpicking about seasoning.. lolol.. yes perhaps carnivore isn't the right term.. predat0r diet would be more apt.. as a predat0r would eat the eggs of prey if found.. or whatever helped them to survive..

 

[muscleupcrohn]

People be nitpicking about seasoning.. lolol.. yes perhaps carnivore isn't the right term.. predat0r diet would be more apt.. as a predat0r would eat the eggs of prey if found.. or whatever helped them to survive..

Yeah, but my point is if it's acceptable for him to have seasonings and peppers even though they're not animal products (meat was the wrong word fro me to use), then why not also technically break the carnivore/animal rule by also having some Vitamin C and fiber.

 

[HIT4ME]

Let's just call it the 5 pounds of meat per day diet.

 

[D3x]

I mean if a zoo keeper seasoned a lion's meat and fed it to him does that make the lion not a carnivore?.. it just feels like a technical flag being thrown over negligible plant matter sprinkled atop meat..

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I mean if a zoo keeper seasoned a lion's meat and fed it to him does that make the lion not a carnivore?.. it just feels like a technical flag being thrown over negligible plant matter sprinkled atop meat..

Yes, you are correct. That’s my point; would it also not be a “technical flag” to say that also having a Vitamin C supplement would be a violation of the diet? If seasoning is ok even though it’s not an animal product, why isn’t a Vitamin C cap or powder? Just as a precaution to ensure you’re getting enough. I see no reason not to have some supplemental C if you’re not eating ANY fruits or vegetables.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I’m not so much saying “you’re not a carnivore if you have seasoning and peppers,” as I am saying “if you allow yourself to have seasoning and peppers on your carnivore diet, why not also have some Vitamin C as well, just as a precaution?”

 

[AlexPowell]

Thanks for posting it up. So you never have any fiber? Also, where are you getting your Vitamin C from? If I recall, liver only has a pretty small amount, as does milk. I’m not saying you absolutely need a lot of Vitamin C to be healthy, but it’s typically a good idea, and I don’t see any reason not to supplement a diet like this with some things like Vitamin C unless you just really care about the semantics of saying you eat nothing but meat, which itself already isn’t technically true if you’re eating spices and peppers, so why not add some basic vitamins?

Vitamin C and Glucose compete for the same receptors, so if you're eating a carb free diet your Vitamin C requirements plummet!

 

[AlexPowell]

What I will do is I'll cut seasoning other than salt out of the diet. You don't need fibre in the absence of carbohydrate either

So now my diet is just muscle meat, liver, a bit of cheese a few times a week (no milk - I want it to be zero carb), eggs for breakfast on weekends, salt and water

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What I will do is I'll cut seasoning other than salt out of the diet. You don't need fibre in the absence of carbohydrate either

So now my diet is just muscle meat, liver, a bit of cheese a few times a week (no milk - I want it to be zero carb), eggs for breakfast on weekends, salt and water

I don’t want to be the reason you deprive yourself of seasoning man. I will say, I commend your dedication to this strict diet, even if I don’t really see the benefits over a slightly more moderate approach haha. But to each his own, and this is an interesting project.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Vitamin C and Glucose compete for the same receptors, so if you're eating a carb free diet your Vitamin C requirements plummet!

It does appear that raw, or at least not over cooked, liver meats and some other meats/animal foods can have enough Vitamin C to prevent scurvy, which is why the Inuits didn’t have survey. Apparently muktuk(whale skin and blubber) has a lot of Vitamin C, so that likely helped them out.

Interesting thread, and I learned something.

 

[ericos_bob]

Wolves,lions,heyenas,vultures etc in the wild will eat grasses, berries, seeds in small portions. Even carnivorous maggots don't always exclusively feed on meat and will devour the faeces of herbivorous animals. I'd say your diet is carnivorous if it mostly consists of meat.
You'll want to peg your nose during bathroom visits. There's no greater stink than that of a meat eater.

 

[HIT4ME]

Vitamin C and Glucose compete for the same receptors, so if you're eating a carb free diet your Vitamin C requirements plummet!

What I will do is I'll cut seasoning other than salt out of the diet. You don't need fibre in the absence of carbohydrate either

So now my diet is just muscle meat, liver, a bit of cheese a few times a week (no milk - I want it to be zero carb), eggs for breakfast on weekends, salt and water

Not arguing - looking to learn. Vitamin C and fiber needs being attenuated with low carb diets is new to me. Do you have any good references there?

You are gonna teach me and muscleupcrohn something in this thread. That's a on achievement. Muscleupcrohn knows almost everything and I think I know everything. Haha.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I mean if a zoo keeper seasoned a lion's meat and fed it to him does that make the lion not a carnivore?.. it just feels like a technical flag being thrown over negligible plant matter sprinkled atop meat..

If the lion eats the zookeeper -and the zookeeper has his work uniform on, the lion is not a pure carnivore.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Not arguing - looking to learn. Vitamin C and fiber needs being attenuated with low carb diets is new to me. Do you have any good references there?

You are gonna teach me and muscleupcrohn something in this thread. That's a on achievement. Muscleupcrohn knows almost everything and I think I know everything. Haha.

Haha, thanks, but I definitely don’t know lots of things. I’d still like to see evidence that the need for Vitamin C is attenuated to a significant degree with low carb diets. What I’ve just recently read on Inuit diets and things like that is more along the lines of not that much Vitamin C is actually needed to prevent scurvy (only 10mg/day or so), while the RDA is higher, it may not be necessary, and this 10mg/day can be achieved with various animal products if you eat the right ones. Either way, I learned that it’s possible to get enough vitamin C, and I learned what muktuk is, so that’s cool haha.

 

[AlexPowell]

Not arguing - looking to learn. Vitamin C and fiber needs being attenuated with low carb diets is new to me. Do you have any good references there?

You are gonna teach me and muscleupcrohn something in this thread. That's a on achievement. Muscleupcrohn knows almost everything and I think I know everything. Haha.

That's fine, I realise that what I am doing is unconventional and I've not really been pushing my point of view very hard and explaining myself either.
Last thing I want to do is be like a vegan and ramble on and on about the supposed health benefits to anyone that will listen. I know that I'm doing what's best for me, happy to answer any questions about it also

https://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james52.htm

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That's fine, I realise that what I am doing is unconventional and I've not really been pushing my point of view very hard and explaining myself either.
Last thing I want to do is be like a vegan and ramble on and on about the supposed health benefits to anyone that will listen. I know that I'm doing what's best for me, happy to answer any questions about it also

https://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james52.htm

So this is more hypothesized than anything? The author proposes that people consuming low carbohydrate diets would need less vitamin c due to competition with glucose, but does not cite any actual studies showing that this pans out to any meaningful/relevant/significant degree in reality. The article quickly devolved into a focus on why sugar is bad more than actually even discussing Vitamin C haha. My big takeaway from what I’ve learned today is that we don’t really need all that much Vitamin C to avoid scurvy, and a proper animal-dominant diet (like the Inuits eat, not just eating random animal stuff without giving it any second thought) can provide this sufficient amount of Vitamin C. This is the simplest and most logical conclusion IMO, and is easily proven by evaluating the Vitamin C content of things like muktuk and some animal liver. This is more plausible to me than the needed Vitamin C intake being drastically lower without carbs.

 

[AlexPowell]

So this is more hypothesized than anything? The author proposes that people consuming low carbohydrate diets would need less vitamin c due to competition with glucose, but does not cite any actual studies showing that this pans out to any meaningful/relevant/significant degree in reality. The article quickly devolved into a focus on why sugar is bad more than actually even discussing Vitamin C haha. My big takeaway from what I’ve learned today is that we don’t really need all that much Vitamin C to avoid scurvy, and a proper animal-dominant diet (like the Inuits eat, not just eating random animal stuff without giving it any second thought) can provide this sufficient amount of Vitamin C. This is the simplest and most logical conclusion IMO, and is easily proven by evaluating the Vitamin C content of things like muktuk and some animal liver. This is more plausible to me than the needed Vitamin C intake being drastically lower without carbs.

I'll find you some studies when I have more free time. I did a quick search now however I could only find studies on people with hyperglycemia (diabeetus). What happens to people with the beetus probably has no value to us, but I know the study demonstrating that glucose and ascorbic acid compete for insulin with glucose always winning was done back in the 50s

 

[AlexPowell]

I wish I could get me some muktuk, it sounds glorious

 

[SFreed]

I wish I could get me some muktuk, it sounds glorious

I've eaten it. Let's just say it's an acquired taste.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I wish I could get me some muktuk, it sounds glorious

I want to try it too haha. I’d imagine it’d be pretty hard to get anywhere where there aren’t whales swimming around though.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I've eaten it. Let's just say it's an acquired taste.

Nice. Any comparisons to other foods?

 

[HIT4ME]

This study is interesting. I guess I could buy that hyperglycemia may increase the need for Vitamin C. And this and other studies seem to support that. But this study shows vitamin C attenuated hyperglycemia, which would be counter to the proposed MOA above if they competed for tramsport...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3254006/

 

[BEAST73]

The Digestive System will play a big role in this Diet,and going to take a big Hit!

 

[AlexPowell]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16118484/

Oxidative stress has been considered to be a common pathogenetic factor of diabetic nephropathy. But the reason why renal cells are susceptible to oxidative injury in diabetes is not clear. Vitamin C plays a central role in the antioxidant defense system and exists in two major forms. The charged form, ascorbate, is taken up into cells via sodium-dependent facilitated transport. The uncharged form, dehydroascorbate, enters cells via glucose transporter and is then converted back to ascorbate within these cells. Because dehydroascorbate and glucose compete for glucose transporters, hyperglycemia will exclude vitamin C from the cell and resulted in a decreased antioxidant capacity in some cell type that is dehydroascorbate dependent. As such, we hypothesized that some renal cells were dehydroascorbate dependent and the susceptibility of renal cells to glucose-induced injury was mediated by hyperglycemic exclusion of dehydroascorbate uptake through competing for glucose transporter. The aims of the present study were to determine whether tubular epithelial cell was dehydroascorbate dependent and the effect of dehydroascorbate on the production of reactive oxygen species in cells incubated by high glucose.

 

[SFreed]

Nice. Any comparisons to other foods?

Surprisingly, it was more gamey than fishy. I actually assumed it would taste like fish. The texture was my biggest hurdle. As I chewed it, it became more oily. I've been told that the fresher it is, the less rubbery it is. I also had some "Eskimo ice cream" during that trip, which is definitely not ice cream.

 

[AlexPowell]

Surprisingly, it was more gamey than fishy. I actually assumed it would taste like fish. The texture was my biggest hurdle. As I chewed it, it became more oily. I've been told that the fresher it is, the less rubbery it is. I also had some "Eskimo ice cream" during that trip, which is definitely not ice cream.

Was it raw?

 

[D3x]

I’m not so much saying “you’re not a carnivore if you have seasoning and peppers,” as I am saying “if you allow yourself to have seasoning and peppers on your carnivore diet, why not also have some Vitamin C as well, just as a precaution?”

Granted