Havoc with Furazadrol Frontload

[NasD]

celc, this is a helluva log you got going here in terms of the discussion and changing the gameplan to adjust for how your body is reacting. THIS is the kinda log that should have been followed as much as some of the other ones that I've seen lately...

 

[slow-mun]

Do you plan on incorporating an AI into your plans once you are finished with PCT, using just Toremifene?

 

[celc5]

Do you plan on incorporating an AI into your plans once you are finished with PCT, using just Toremifene?

Yes, definately. Initially I had planned to run the Hx2 but dropped it because of GI discomfort.

I do plan to substitute 6oxo for the Hx2 as soon as it gets here. I'll probably start with something like 200 or 300mg until the torem starts to taper. At that point, wk 3 and 4 of pct will be in the ballpark of 400 or 500mg 6oxo. Once the torem is gone at the end of week 4, i'll taper the 6oxo for an additional 2 or 3 weeks. Total will be about 6 weeks of pct.

Do you believe there's any holes in my modified plan? Do you believe the AI should be ran longer? I'm completely open to suggestions my friend :cheers:

 

[UNCfan1]

Wow Celc, just when I was thinking about buying so more SD I read your last few posts and I got to thinking that really enjoy my full balls and libido:icon_lol: I kid I kid. That sucks, but I am sure in the back of your mind you knew it was coming.

I have no comment on running an extended peroid with your AI but low dosed I really don't see a problem with it. I do agree strongly with BigT to continue to hit your SAMe and prob be best to hit up so straight Niacin and not the time released or flush free kind.

The Forsholii Diterpene Extract in HDx2 was bothering you I assume?

 

[celc5]

Wow Celc, just when I was thinking about buying so more SD I read your last few posts and I got to thinking that really enjoy my full balls and libido:icon_lol: I kid I kid. That sucks, but I am sure in the back of your mind you knew it was coming.

I have no comment on running an extended peroid with your AI but low dosed I really don't see a problem with it. I do agree strongly with BigT to continue to hit your SAMe and prob be best to hit up so straight Niacin and not the time released or flush free kind.

The Forsholii Diterpene Extract in HDx2 was bothering you I assume?

Yes sir I was thinking about it very strongly. The suppression was much more than just an afterthought. My thinking was that I could get off of the SD before it crushed me. And I felt as though I was stopping at the right time. But, those first 2 or 3 days without the exogenous hormone were real rough.

Yup good point on time release vs. regular niacin. I'm using the regular right now for HDL. For those who aren't aware, the time release supposedly has liver stress potential.

I have no idea re: the Hx2. All I know is that it seriously kicked asss last time and I'm pissed that I couldn't use it this time around.

 

[UNCfan1]

Yes sir I was thinking about it very strongly. The suppression was much more than just an afterthought. My thinking was that I could get off of the SD before it crushed me. And I felt as though I was stopping at the right time. But, those first 2 or 3 days without the exogenous hormone were real rough.

Yup good point on time release vs. regular niacin. I'm using the regular right now for HDL. For those who aren't aware, the time release supposedly has liver stress potential.

I have no idea re: the Hx2. All I know is that it seriously kicked asss last time and I'm pissed that I couldn't use it this time around.

At first I was thinking you were so shutdown cause of the previous days being on Havoc/Fura but then got to thinking well SD would have most likely shut you down fast anyway:lol:

Yes, I was reading about that recently. I am sure most know that high doses period could have potential hepatotoxic effects so it only makes sense than a time released formula would have a greater effect.

Hmmm I wonder if the amount of methly's had an effect on your liver/stomach and the addition of HDx2 made it worse? I say this cause I have recently seen a few threads pop up at other sites where guys were using HDx2 after or with a methyl and had GI problems. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[DBinMD]

Yup good point on time release vs. regular niacin. I'm using the regular right now for HDL. For those who aren't aware, the time release supposedly has liver stress potential.

Agreed. My HDL is a little abnormal so I spent some time looking into it. The liver stress on the slo niacin seems to be pretty well documented, but the exact reason is unclear. But even more interesting is that there is no known drug better than niacin therapy for HDL (some sources also include LDL improvements, but the literature isn't as consistant). It makes me wonder what the point to the statins is since they seem to have some serious side effects.

My family doc suggested niacin, but I had already beat him to it so he took a blood test. Anyway, after 6 weeks it showed no change in my HDL but a 22 pt drop in LDL; that's better than those oatmeal commercials. But to be fair I'm also taking Leviathan so that could have something to do with it, too.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

 

[slow-mun]

Yes, definately. Initially I had planned to run the Hx2 but dropped it because of GI discomfort.

I do plan to substitute 6oxo for the Hx2 as soon as it gets here. I'll probably start with something like 200 or 300mg until the torem starts to taper. At that point, wk 3 and 4 of pct will be in the ballpark of 400 or 500mg 6oxo. Once the torem is gone at the end of week 4, i'll taper the 6oxo for an additional 2 or 3 weeks. Total will be about 6 weeks of pct.

Do you believe there's any holes in my modified plan? Do you believe the AI should be ran longer? I'm completely open to suggestions my friend :cheers:

I think you what you have is fine, although I doubt you'll need more than 300mg of 6-OXO to get an effective dose.

 

[Ziquor]

Damn I missed too much :head:

Niacin's pretty amazing at raising HDL, even more so than prescription statins. The non-flush Inositol Hexanicotinate version has been documented to work as well as the regular version, but with less liver strain. The time released 'flush' version is the worst in terms of hepatoxicity. From what I've seen taking Inositol Hexanicotinate in an instant release form and consuming your entire daily dose in 1 or 2 doses a day MAX minimizes liver strain.

Celc, have you always had GI discomfort with 6-bromo? Also you ran dermal 6-OXO throughout your cycle alongside the Havoc/SD didn't you?

 

[slow-mun]

Damn I missed too much :head:

Niacin's pretty amazing at raising HDL, even more so than prescription statins. The non-flush Inositol Hexanicotinate version has been documented to work as well as the regular version, but with less liver strain. The time released 'flush' version is the worst in terms of hepatoxicity. From what I've seen taking Inositol Hexanicotinate in an instant release form and consuming your entire daily dose in 1 or 2 doses a day MAX minimizes liver strain.

Celc, have you always had GI discomfort with 6-bromo? Also you ran dermal 6-OXO throughout your cycle alongside the Havoc/SD didn't you?

Its probably the forskolin in hyperdrol that gave the problems and not the 6-bromo.

 

[thebigt]

Its probably the forskolin in hyperdrol that gave the problems and not the 6-bromo.

i think it is the circumstances of the cycle that caused his bad reaction. i think celc is a fan of hdx2, he had been telling me how much he liked it before this happened.

 

[celc5]

To all you niacin nerds, I've been taking 500mg Niacin per day split up into 2-3 doses. Do you guys believe this is enough?

Also, the reason for using Torem instead of Nolva this time was because Torem's lipid-friendly effects are well documented.

Sol, I agree. I was thinking I'd only use the higher dosage in case the boys weren't coming back. In which case, it would be a "plan B" of sorts to instigate a test boost. I don't think will be necessary though as testicular mass has returned fully and libido starting coming back on day5 pct.
Edit: that was in regards to 6oxo

Ziquor, yes BigT is correct. I threw in Hx2 about 1/2 way through my phera pct and it totally rocked. Also, yes, I ran a low dose of a form/trione TD mix when I added the SD. In hindsight, I probably should have waited about 5 days before adding that in and then kept it going into the first 5 or 10 days of pct to keep libido. I suspect that my mistake was that I dropped EVERYTHING at the same time with no transition. Hence, the old school form strategies that start it toward the end of the cycle and then bridge it into pct for 2 weeks.

Day 7 pct update

Just to comment on the problems that I had early on.

-Lethargy stopped within 1-2 days of starting pct.

-My body seems to have adjusted to the Torem and mood evened out by day 3. Also, testicular mass returned almost completely within 3-4 days. I had mild atrophy during the last 10-14 days of the cycle

-Libido returned the night after day 4 with random wood and a slight increase in desire. I did not comment on that because I took Aspire on day 2, and sometimes it lasts for days for me. I wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpretting what was going on. Today is day 7 and I'm sure I'd be fully functional in the bed room, but desire is still a bit flat. Paravol should be here today or tomorrow and I expect that libido enhancer to do the trick. Btw, I still have PowerFull, B6, and tyrosine in the mix and expect that to continue to prevent and nipple sensations that the paravol may cause.

-I'm doing just fine without an AI at this point after the Hx2 caused stomach discomfort. I'm sure estrogen was at flat out zero at the end of the cycle. I plan to add a low dose 6oxo as soon as it gets to my door.

-Workouts in pct have been fantastic. The routine change to HST is working out great, just like it did last time. In hindsight, I should have switched over to HST the second that I suspected workout quality was dropping. Another troubleshooting learning experience IMO.

Muscle hardness and lean mass "looks" like it's sticking around. So is vascularity. To my surprise, this is the first cycle where muscle hardness is carrying over into pct as well. I'm optimistic that gains will be easy to maintain.

Gym endurance is just fine although I'm keeping the workouts at 60minutes, not a minute more. I also have 2-3 rest days per week and cardio is not as aggressive as it was ON cycle. I'm trying to control for overtraining as best as possible.

 

[Ziquor]

Sweet mother of information

My father uses Niacin at 1.5g per day and he's had amazing results as far as lipids go, especially in regards to HDL. From the studies I've seen, which have all been pretty consistent, there was significant increases in HDL (up to 30%) at doses ranging from 1 to 1.5 grams per day. But LDL was only lowered mildly. For significant LDL improvement 2-3g/day was recommended.

Great to see your lethargy disappear so quickly. You must be recovering pretty quickly :thumbsup: So do you have the original Aspire that made headlines a couple months ago?

 

[celc5]

So do you have the original Aspire that made headlines a couple months ago?

Yes. But 1 whole cap is too much for me. The 3 day hard-on gets annoying honestly. So I poke a pinhole in my Aspire cap and put equal drops into 2 nutracaps. It gives a more reasonable performance enhancement, but it still actually feels artificial to me. They are for emergencies only.

 

[Ziquor]

Yes. But 1 whole cap is too much for me. The 3 day hard-on gets annoying honestly. So I poke a pinhole in my Aspire cap and put equal drops into 2 nutracaps. It gives a more reasonable performance enhancement, but it still actually feels artificial to me. They are for emergencies only.

Sweet, no doubt your G/F enjoys the product :think:

 

[DBinMD]

To all you niacin nerds, I've been taking 500mg Niacin per day split up into 2-3 doses. Do you guys believe this is enough?

Maybe, but the recommended doses are 2 to 4 grams. I'd get a blood test done and go from there. 2 gms for me hasn't affected my HDL (35, a little low), but my family doc is happy with the LDL drop so he didn't recommend upping the dose (but I probably will).

 

[thebigt]

Yes. But 1 whole cap is too much for me. The 3 day hard-on gets annoying honestly. So I poke a pinhole in my Aspire cap and put equal drops into 2 nutracaps. It gives a more reasonable performance enhancement, but it still actually feels artificial to me. They are for emergencies only.

ive heard tales that pct tabs by ids has a decent amount of aspire in it. been hearing good things. celc, i honestly am very impressed with t911, could feel it working within 15 of first dose. i tell you, this is hard to believe but i feel like i am getting androgenic like results on this after just a few days. i just wonder if they will tone it down before releasing it. powerful stuff, guaranteed.:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

Hmm, consensus seems to think that I should up my niacin dosage. I guess that's what I'm going to do then.

DBin, I agree with bloodwork. However, i just had bloodwork between my phera cycle and this one. I don't want to abuse the rapport I built with my new doc at this time.

Ziquor, ya she's a fiesty one. She usually ends up wrapping her leg around me in the gym before we even finish the workout. Sometimes, I have no choice :lol:

BigT, good info on the IDS tabs. Never heard that before. Unless you know what you're getting into, I think that's some real shady business sneaking ingredients in there like that.

Speaking of T911, I was looking for your log last night and didn't see it. Post a link?

 

[thebigt]

Hmm, consensus seems to think that I should up my niacin dosage. I guess that's what I'm going to do then.

DBin, I agree with bloodwork. However, i just had bloodwork between my phera cycle and this one. I don't want to abuse the rapport I built with my new doc at this time.

Ziquor, ya she's a fiesty one. She usually ends up wrapping her leg around me in the gym before we even finish the workout. Sometimes, I have no choice :lol:

BigT, good info on the IDS tabs. Never heard that before. Unless you know what you're getting into, I think that's some real shady business sneaking ingredients in there like that.

Speaking of T911, I was looking for your log last night and didn't see it. Post a link?

as for the ids tabs aspire is listed. just didn't realize it was the same. as for t911, i just logged on lg forum here at am.

 

[Ziquor]

as for the ids tabs aspire is listed. just didn't realize it was the same. as for t911, i just logged on lg forum here at am.

IDS sure is a shady company on so many different fronts, probably the worst was when they originated and had their products tested on unsuspecting victims in concentration camps. Everyone on BB seems to think there's Clomid in PCT Tabs. But then again some people with 10,000+ posts there haven't a clue what SD is.

 

[NasD]

IDS sure is a shady company on so many different fronts

celc, excuse the hijack...

IDS is generally regarded as shady but some of their products such as Mass Tabs seem to be highly regarded by some. So WHY are they regarded as shady, because they don't list amounts of the compounds in their concoctions, because they flat out lie about what's ACTUALLY in them, or both, neither?

 

[celc5]

bigT, good point bro. I think I jumped the gun with my comment. I just found the pct tabs, on a less popular vendor, and aspire is in fact listed in the ingredient profile.

Ziq, good points. I agree on all fronts.

NasD, eh I jumped the gun and jumped on the bashing bandwagon. I was thinking that aspire wasn't listed but bigT cleared that up for me. To be honest with you, I'm not all that familiar with their products (other than mass tabs as you mentioned) and should have probably left this topic alone.

On a more positive note, my 6oxo, paravol, and Zforce arrived yesterday. Aside from the norm, I like to take my 6oxo preworkout and get some aggression from it. I save the empty stomach night slot for ZMAs and Powerfull.

Btw fellas, one of the reasons I chose Zforce is because it has mucana puriens (dopaminergic) in the ingredient profile. I supect that things are way underdosed. But, I may experiment with double dosing this one because of the price.

 

[Ziquor]

bigT, good point bro. I think I jumped the gun with my comment. I just found the pct tabs, on a less popular vendor, and aspire is in fact listed in the ingredient profile.

Ziq, good points. I agree on all fronts.

NasD, eh I jumped the gun and jumped on the bashing bandwagon. I was thinking that aspire wasn't listed but bigT cleared that up for me. To be honest with you, I'm not all that familiar with their products (other than mass tabs as you mentioned) and should have probably left this topic alone.

On a more positive note, my 6oxo, paravol, and Zforce arrived yesterday. Aside from the norm, I like to take my 6oxo preworkout and get some aggression from it. I save the empty stomach night slot for ZMAs and Powerfull.

Btw fellas, one of the reasons I chose Zforce is because it has mucana puriens (dopaminergic) in the ingredient profile. I supect that things are way underdosed. But, I may experiment with double dosing this one because of the price.

Wow, good find Celc. At $9 a bottle I'm eager to try some out too. For mucana puriens, ZMA, Trib, & other stuff that price is absurd.

 

[Ziquor]

celc, excuse the hijack...

IDS is generally regarded as shady but some of their products such as Mass Tabs seem to be highly regarded by some. So WHY are they regarded as shady, because they don't list amounts of the compounds in their concoctions, because they flat out lie about what's ACTUALLY in them, or both, neither?

I actually have some MT. But I know what they are, and IMO by possibly putting prescription drugs in 'dietary supplements', hiding actual ingredients, and also selling a powerful steroid and telling people in the original ads that it's stronger than Superdrol but 100% completely safe. While it may be a potent product, it's toxicity is likely as bad if not worse than M1T dose dependent. Plus the German concentration camp comment is actually true believe it or not. Hence shady IMO. :head:

 

[thebigt]

I actually have some MT. But I know what they are, and IMO by possibly putting prescription drugs in 'dietary supplements', hiding actual ingredients, and also selling a powerful steroid and telling people in the original ads that it's stronger than Superdrol but 100% completely safe. While it may be a potent product, it's toxicity is likely as bad if not worse than M1T dose dependent. Plus the German concentration camp comment is actually true believe it or not. Hence shady IMO. :head:

can anyone say ALRI.:lol:

 

[NasD]

Ziq/Celc thx for the feedback on IDS. I thought Ziq was joking about the concentration camp stuff! I am getting really curious about the mass tabs so I was trying to find some objective opinions. Good deal.

Celc, are you using 6oxo or 6oxo extreme?

 

[celc5]

Ziq, just a quick note on the Zforce. The reason it's so cheap is that there was a controversy about it's ZMA content. Supposedly it's NOT the asparate version, hence simply a zinc and magnesium supplement.

With traditional ZMA, it actually INTERFERES with my sleep with aggressive, panic stricken dreams and night sweats. So, I'll definately be able to tell if there is a difference.

On the other hand, I never really see any positive effects from ZMA. So, I was more interested in the mucana puriens and the extra tribulus.

Nas, good ol 6oxo is all. I DO like the bulk trione but I just want to make sure dosing is more accurate for post cycle therapy.

 

[Ziquor]

can anyone say ALRI.:lol:

Haha I'd still love to know WTF Methoxy-TST is too, especially since I'm sitting on a few bottles.

Ziq, just a quick note on the Zforce. The reason it's so cheap is that there was a controversy about it's ZMA content. Supposedly it's NOT the asparate version, hence simply a zinc and magnesium supplement.

With traditional ZMA, it actually INTERFERES with my sleep with aggressive, panic stricken dreams and night sweats. So, I'll definately be able to tell if there is a difference.

On the other hand, I never really see any positive effects from ZMA. So, I was more interested in the mucana puriens and the extra tribulus.

Nas, good ol 6oxo is all. I DO like the bulk trione but I just want to make sure dosing is more accurate for post cycle therapy.

Good to know Celc, I'll hold off to see your expert opinion :thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

Haha I'd still love to know WTF Methoxy-TST is too, especially since I'm sitting on a few bottles.

Good to know Celc, I'll hold off to see your expert opinion :thumbsup:

Well now, isn't methoxy tst an interesting little fella. Rumor has it that it has a mean androgenic effect when pulsed. Ziq, might want to consider using the tst as a preworkout pulse during a milder cycle :think:

Expert? Ha!
Honest? Definately!

Regarding Zforce, so far, no libido boosting effect from the trib content which I suspect to be substantially underdosed. Also, no crazy violent dreams like with other ZMA that I've used in the past. At 4 caps before bed, this one is a dud. However, I'd like to try it at like 10 caps throughout the day as an experiment. 2 bottles for $20 at 10 caps will last about 20 or 22 days so it would be interesting still and still relatively inexpensive compared to some of the BS that is popular on the boards.

 

[celc5]

Day 10 pct update

Workouts have been great as I wrap up the first 2 week mesocycle of my hst routine. I have a more reasonable work schedule this week and lethargy is fading. Both of these variables should allow me to reincorporate some cardio and core work.

Muscle hardness is still there. Obviously the all day pump/fullness/vascularity is a thing of the past. But, I'm still pretty happy with how I look. The scale is not budging so I'm pretty sure I'm holding onto my gains for the first time in pct.

I have had 1 or 2 very brief abnormal "prolactin-like" sharp nipple sensations. I'm very confident that the macuna puriens in the Zforce and the Powerfull are helping to minimize those issues. This is a nice prevention combo so far and I'm happy with my personal results.

Overall mood, workouts, sleep patterns, concentration, and critical thinking are all improving every day during pct. Libido is sure taking it's good ol time returning though. I can perform, but not up to my personal standards. So I used another 1/2 cap of Aspire for weekend activities. Load size is slowly returning, but not at the rate that I honestly expected.

I expected a libido boost with the paravol/6oxo combo. But honestly, I don't think they'll do a darn thing when you're shut down. I'm exercising patience at this point.

 

[Trauma1]

Well now, isn't methoxy tst an interesting little fella. Rumor has it that it has a mean androgenic effect when pulsed. Ziq, might want to consider using the tst as a preworkout pulse during a milder cycle :think:

Expert? Ha!
Honest? Definately!

Regarding Zforce, so far, no libido boosting effect from the trib content which I suspect to be substantially underdosed. Also, no crazy violent dreams like with other ZMA that I've used in the past. At 4 caps before bed, this one is a dud. However, I'd like to try it at like 10 caps throughout the day as an experiment. 2 bottles for $20 at 10 caps will last about 20 or 22 days so it would be interesting still and still relatively inexpensive compared to some of the BS that is popular on the boards.

It sure does man haha! I really like M-TST in the pulsing fashion. It was a hell of an addition to my Halodrol cycle years back.

Sorry i missed so much here celc. Good to see that pct is going well though. I also agree with possibly increasing the dosage of niacin. I have a really good study that i need to dig up and send to you.

As far as you PCT goes, i think it looks good as well. I do agree with sol though that you shouldn't need more than 300mg of the 6-oxo. Tapering back down though is a good idea for sure imo.

 

[Trauma1]

Day 10 pct update

Workouts have been great as I wrap up the first 2 week mesocycle of my hst routine. I have a more reasonable work schedule this week and lethargy is fading. Both of these variables should allow me to reincorporate some cardio and core work.

Muscle hardness is still there. Obviously the all day pump/fullness/vascularity is a thing of the past. But, I'm still pretty happy with how I look. The scale is not budging so I'm pretty sure I'm holding onto my gains for the first time in pct.

I have had 1 or 2 very brief abnormal "prolactin-like" sharp nipple sensations. I'm very confident that the macuna puriens in the Zforce and the Powerfull are helping to minimize those issues. This is a nice prevention combo so far and I'm happy with my personal results.

Overall mood, workouts, sleep patterns, concentration, and critical thinking are all improving every day during pct. Libido is sure taking it's good ol time returning though. I can perform, but not up to my personal standards. So I used another 1/2 cap of Aspire for weekend activities. Load size is slowly returning, but not at the rate that I honestly expected.

I expected a libido boost with the paravol/6oxo combo. But honestly, I don't think they'll do a darn thing when you're shut down. I'm exercising patience at this point.

This is good to hear, and nice to see you've documented it. The dopaminergic effects of macuna puriens should help keep prolactin type issues at bay.

Did you actually have any discharge, or was it just a painful occurence?

 

[thebigt]

i really enjoy the new powerful, glad you were able to try it.

 

[dinoiii]

I think SAM-e may just work a little too well. I used to always use milk thistle and NAC prior to using SAM-e and it seems as if my results with methyls has waned a bit, since I started exclusively using SAM-e. I'll put my theory up to testing soon. I have been off of SAM-e for a couple of weeks(and have all kinds of extra pocket cash:lol and will run a methyl cycle in another month or so, sans any SAM-e. Anyhow, this might also explain why Voodoo runs these awful cycles and doesn't appear to gain anything from them. FWIW, my best results with SAM-e have been when I would wake up at 5:00 am and take SAM-e and then dose my methyls at 10:00 am and 4:00 pm.

If you have not seen my study from back in 2002, I'd encourage its read (found at other places).

I have also released a protocol to combat the very phenomenon you describe here.



D_

 

[celc5]

Trauma1, I'm looking forward to the niacin read. I dunno if I ran SD long enough to affect cholesterol to the point where aggressive niacin dosing is needed. I may decide to have some bloodwork later on down the road a few weeks or months after pct just to be sure though.

No, no discharge. And the sensations were thankfully very brief. They are NOTHING compared to what I had with Pheraplex and with phera pct.

TheBigT, yessir! It has it's place. I'm glad I had your feedback though because the broski consensus has it increasing aggression, boosting libido, and moving mountains. LOL

Dinoiii, your posts on liver support timing and SamE have heavily influenced me. Thanks for great info as always! :cheers:

 

[Ziquor]

Looks like all is very well as far as PCT is going :thumbsup:

I always liked to think M-TST was similar to 4-Diol, but I probably just want to think that since I grabbed so many bottles

 

[NasD]

Support Plan:
Hawthorne Berry (preloaded)
SamE

celc, I'm late to the SamE party. I recently read through dinoiii's posts elsewhere regarding SamE for PCT. I see that you used it in lieu of a product like Cycle Assist. I have also read a few posts similar to this one regarding it working TOO well and interfering with gains:

AS far as Liver protection goes one can not do better than Sam-E, I have read some logs where the sam-e worked too well at clearing the liver and gains while on cycle were greatly diminished. Run sam-e before and after a cycle and use NAC on cycle. Stay away from milk thistle as it may interfere with gains.

Since I know you to analyze the hell out of these things like I do what are your thoughts?

 

[celc5]

I gained just short of 6 pounds of lean mass plus an additional 2 of fat for 8 pounds total. That was at the 26 day point where I had ran pretty a conservative dose of Havoc. Tell me a story about someone who was taking skinfolds and gained 6 pounds of lean mass in 26 days without a ph or ds. See my point? I say it worked just fine when it was all said and done. Mood was excellent throughout the Havoc portion of the cycle even with lethargy considered.

I've said it after all 3 of my cycles. Those who are claiming to gain 10+ pounds of lean mass in 4 weeks on any of the CURRENT designers are full of shiit (ok maybe they're gaining 10 pounds of lean mass with SD, but I still find that hard to believe). Maybe they're getting fat and don't realize it??? 6 pounds is a big success IMO.

 

[Ziquor]

I gained just short of 6 pounds of lean mass plus an additional 2 of fat for 8 pounds total. That was at the 26 day point where I had ran pretty a conservative dose of Havoc. Tell me a story about someone who was taking skinfolds and gained 6 pounds of lean mass in 26 days without a ph or ds. See my point? I say it worked just fine when it was all said and done. Mood was excellent throughout the Havoc portion of the cycle even with lethargy considered.

I've said it after all 3 of my cycles. Those who are claiming to gain 10+ pounds of lean mass in 4 weeks on any of the CURRENT designers are full of shiit (ok maybe they're gaining 10 pounds of lean mass with SD, but I still find that hard to believe). Maybe they're getting fat and don't realize it??? 6 pounds is a big success IMO.

Yeah, another thing that makes me laugh is all these guys who say they ran Xtreme Tren and gained 15 pounds but lost half in PCT and are puzzled as to why. In the meantime, while they were ON cycle they upped their water intake to like 2-3 gallons a day

 

[NasD]

celc/ziq thanks for the feedback. Now that I think about it, is there actually anything chemically about SamE to suggest that it's even POSSIBLE for it to interfere with how a PH/PS is metabolized (cause I don't think it is)? Or is the feedback just anecdotal evidence from people whose opinion is "since I didn't blow the f**k up and others did then it MUST be the SamE"?

 

[celc5]

celc/ziq thanks for the feedback. Now that I think about it, is there actually anything chemically about SamE to suggest that it's even POSSIBLE for it to interfere with how a PH/PS is metabolized (cause I don't think it is)? Or is the feedback just anecdotal evidence from people whose opinion is "since I didn't blow the f**k up and others did then it MUST be the SamE"?

I have a hunch that Ziq will do a better job of explaining it physiologically, as I'm rusty on internal organ function. In short, NO they're absolutely NOT blowing smoke. The methylated substance has to pass through the liver in a destructive fashion. IF milk thistle or SamE protect the liver, isn't it logical that the mythylated substance could possibly have trouble passing through?

IMO their ideas are well thought out and do have some science to support their ideas. However, I just don't think it was a major issue for me personally.

1 thing that I believe helps me substantially, is one of the above references. It is theorized that it takes about 4 hours for the liver to metabolize the methylated compound. So liver protection and methylated compound should be dosed at least 4 hours apart to prevent interference with liver support or compound effectiveness.

 

[NasD]

This is good to know. I don't like to take most things at face value without knowing HOW they work instead of just the fact that they do work. Personally I'd sacrifice some interference with gains over overall health anyday since I only have 1 liver. I'll have to make sure I space the dosing as you laid out for my future cycles. Good stuff.

 

[celc5]

Day 14 pct update

Strength gains are here to stay!

I set up my HST routines with a predetermined previous rm PLUS 5 pounds on every lift. During my 1st 2 week mesocycle at 16 reps, I met every single new rm goal with strict form. Also, I EXCEEDED my planned goal by 5 pounds on bench and shoulder press. Interestingly, these are typically very weak movements for me and the only time I make gains on chest or shoulders is when I'm ON cycle. Hell ya!!! :head:

Weight is holding strong (down 1/2 pound morning weight) and I'm looking as lean as I did on cycle. I'll probably wait on the skinfolds until 6wks of pct has been concluded.

Symptom wise, I have no remaining issues except for libido and performance in the bedroom. On the bright side, I seem to be starting to mildly respond to my Paravol and Ejaculoid stack last night and today. That's actually an improvement since last week when I had no response, unless I used Aspire. My short term goal is to eliminate the need for Aspire and use more reasonable alternatives.

 

[Ziquor]

I have a hunch that Ziq will do a better job of explaining it physiologically, as I'm rusty on internal organ function. In short, NO they're absolutely NOT blowing smoke. The methylated substance has to pass through the liver in a destructive fashion. IF milk thistle or SamE protect the liver, isn't it logical that the mythylated substance could possibly have trouble passing through?

IMO their ideas are well thought out and do have some science to support their ideas. However, I just don't think it was a major issue for me personally.

1 thing that I believe helps me substantially, is one of the above references. It is theorized that it takes about 4 hours for the liver to metabolize the methylated compound. So liver protection and methylated compound should be dosed at least 4 hours apart to prevent interference with liver support or compound effectiveness.

SAMe is one herbal I'm not real well versed on. If it were to affect gains I'd think it could be from SAMe directly interfering with the methyl group on 17a's. It may be possible that it could interfere somehow with demethylation, in turn lowering the oral bio-availability of 17a's. So taking the SAMe (or other liver protectors) 4-6 hours away from your methyl dosing should help minimize any loses. But this is just my personal speculation with SAMe.

As I mentioned earlier though in regards to milk thistle / silymarin as I seen in Lewellyn's book, due to its strong anti-inflammatory properties it may could interfere with protein synthesis - which's obviously one of the biggest benefits of anabolics. Since most liver protection supplements act as anti-inflammatories could this hold true for all to some extent? :think:

 

[celc5]

Hey guys, since we're talking about interactions and interference...

Do you guys think there's a possibility that it's the SamE interfering with libido? I'm aware that anti-depressants frequently have libido loss as a side effect. And SamE has as strong and fast of mood altering effects that I've ever experienced. I'm going on about 6-7 weeks now of dosing at 400mg. Any thoughts on this?

Also, do you think that the PowerFull could be interfering with the libido enhancers? My initial idea was for it to keep prolactin at bay for SD and SD pct. But I'm seeing that it's completely eliminating ANY nipple effects from the libido enhancers that I'm taking (abnormal nipple sensations are USUALLY a common side for me with paravol and ejaculoid). I'm wondering if the libido enhancers require some sort of prolactin pathway to be effective.

I don't have much science to back up my thoughts. It's just that my girl was looking pretty hot yesterday and I had to shrug her off knowing that performance would still not be up to par :rant:

 

[celc5]

Post #2 is updated with week 5 SD stats and SD final review.

Day 19 pct update

I think I've finally sorted through the libido issues for this pct. After sifting through my old logs and some pct posts, I suspect that low estrogen was the culprit.

IMO, the SD and AI combo at the end of my cycle probably left me with little to no estrogen. Then I threw in a hefty dose of Toremefine. I dosed Toremefine 120 for 3 days, 90 for 6 days, 60 for 6, and I'm currently at 30.

Libido returned after the second day of 30mg Torem. After sifting through my Phera log, I had libido issues at 60 and 45mg of Torem (although much milder than this time around). Again, libido returned at 30mg Torem. Isn't it peculiar that the consensus rants and raves over how well heavy doses of Torem boost libido???

I suspect that in terms of instigating HPTA activity, the aggressively dosed serm dose a good job. Testicular mass returned in 3 days and, other than 1-2 days of moodiness, I felt pretty good during pct with the high dose. The flip side is that it probably played a role in libido loss.

The serm IMO probably dose a great job of controlling estrogen even at the lower dosing scheme. On the flip side, I think it took a REALLY long time to recover from phera with lower dosed serm. I guess it's always a catch 22 when you're playing with these drugs :think:

 

[thebigt]

Post #2 is updated with week 5 SD stats and SD final review.

Day 19 pct update

I think I've finally sorted through the libido issues for this pct. After sifting through my old logs and some pct posts, I suspect that low estrogen was the culprit.

IMO, the SD and AI combo at the end of my cycle probably left me with little to no estrogen. Then I threw in a hefty dose of Toremefine. I dosed Toremefine 120 for 3 days, 90 for 6 days, 60 for 6, and I'm currently at 30.

Libido returned after the second day of 30mg Torem. After sifting through my Phera log, I had libido issues at 60 and 45mg of Torem (although much milder than this time around). Again, libido returned at 30mg Torem. Isn't it peculiar that the consensus rants and raves over how well heavy doses of Torem boost libido???

I suspect that in terms of instigating HPTA activity, the aggressively dosed serm dose a good job. Testicular mass returned in 3 days and, other than 1-2 days of moodiness, I felt pretty good during pct with the high dose.

The serm IMO probably dose a great job of controlling estrogen even at the lower dosing scheme. On the flip side, I
think it took a REALLY long time to recover from phera with lower dosed serm. I guess it's always a catch 22 when you're playing with these drugs :think:

celc, you are always full of details. even though i sometimes get impulsive [can't help it it's my nature], i always gain a lot from the detail you put into your logs. definately good for someone like me to read through your logs when when planning a cycle with serious ph's such as sd or phera. guess it's good that ive decided to just run mild ph cycles. btw great log,AGAIN!!!:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

celc, you are always full of details. even though i sometimes get impulsive [can't help it it's my nature], i always gain a lot from the detail you put into your logs. definately good for someone like me to read through your logs when when planning a cycle with serious ph's such as sd or phera. guess it's good that ive decided to just run mild ph cycles. btw great log,AGAIN!!!:thumbsup:

A lot of my ideas have evolved from things you taught me last summer. And I spend a lot of time clicking on the old "search" box on several forums :study:

I agree with the milder cycles. The rest of my AX Superdrol is gone already. Unfortunately, my GI intolerance for Hyperdrol hasn't changed either, even at 1 cap. So those have been traded already as well.

I'm really liking the basic 6oxo/creatine stack with 1/2 scoop Fast Twitch pwo. With that stack, my weight is holding steady and strength is still slowly climbing. I look about the same as I did at the end of the SD run, but of course without the rediculous pump.

 

[thebigt]

A lot of my ideas have evolved from things you taught me last summer. And I spend a lot of time clicking on the old "search" box on several forums :study:

I agree with the milder cycles. The rest of my AX Superdrol is gone already. Unfortunately, my GI intolerance for Hyperdrol hasn't changed either, even at 1 cap. So those have been traded already as well.

I'm really liking the basic 6oxo/creatine stack with 1/2 scoop Fast Twitch pwo. With that stack, my weight is holding steady and strength is still slowly climbing. I look about the same as I did at the end of the SD run, but of course without the rediculous pump.

6oxo/stoked treated me well, then of course 6 days on t911. i think i am really sold on resveratrol when stacked with an ai [have also stacked stoked with formadrol]. right now i am on day 4 of dermacrine/formadex/poweful/incarnate/cordygen5. i messed up dosing yesterday and could not get to sleep for nothing. closed my eyes and was wide awake even though i took 3 powerful and was very tired. have to experiment with doses.:thumbsup:

 

[Ziquor]

Excellent info as always Celc :thumbsup:

I always suspected libido loss from S-Drol could be related to low estro as well since Masteron acts as a potent AI itself. I suspected this likely carried over to S-Drol. As I've said before with the summary post in the beginning your logs rock :head: