Havoc with Furazadrol Frontload

[Ziquor]

Awesome work Celc, outstanding detail :thumbsup:

I assume you mixed your own dermals? If so what did you use for a carrier? The form I had previously was already a pre-dermal but I was looking into getting some powder.

 

[celc5]

Awesome work Celc, outstanding detail :thumbsup:

I assume you mixed your own dermals? If so what did you use for a carrier? The form I had previously was already a pre-dermal but I was looking into getting some powder.

The BigT and I have been using eform from BN for maybe 2 or 3 years. Check out his old school review on that site which says "don't buy this stuff... so I can have it all" :lol: I had NO CLUE what I using at that point, but know better now.

To answer your question, I stopped using Eform when the price went up. I use NP's penetrate, 4oz at a time so I can use an old eform bottle. I mixed 1.5g bulk trione 1fast brand with 1.5g BN formestane.

I've mixed my own dermals many times and I'm just now getting the hang of it. It's a royal pain in the asss bro. The best technique I've used to get it to stay in solution is Warbird's microwave technique. I NEVER got formestane to stay in solution when mixing "correctly" with lightly boiling and so forth. That old school technique did work just fine with trione though.

Some suggest grinding techniques which help the form to stay in solution. I've looked into those suggestions but decided they weren't for me personally.

 

[thebigt]

i told you that the new powerful was good stuff,eh. btw did you ever try adding in some rogaine to your td's like dr.d suggested? i am going to try it out next run. ive never ran superdrol, always been afraid of the sides, you be careful celc.

 

[celc5]

i told you that the new powerful was good stuff,eh. btw did you ever try adding in some rogaine to your td's like dr.d suggested? i am going to try it out next run. ive never ran superdrol, always been afraid of the sides, you be careful celc.

Powerfull is top notch in terms of sleep quality and dealing with what seem to be mild prolactin issues. It made me too tired during the day, but I just had to adjust my dosing strategies. I'm using it right now at only 2caps per night on a relatively empty stomach and it's working just fine.

Thanks for the concern with the SD. I felt the same way for a long time concerning it's reputatin. However, the more I studied, the more I was able to link the serious sides up with unintelligent ON cycle dosing, no prevention plan, and sloppy post cycle plans. I see the week 3-6 post cycle timeframe as typically shaky ground but I'm fully ready to deal with what lies ahead.

Week 4 Summary

Havoc 40
Furaz 200
Superdrol 10
*additional Form/trione/Powerfull

Post #2 is updated for pros/cons and body comp summary.

I think I look a bit tighter over weeks 3 and 4 than I did during week 2. Lean mass is up a bit again. I have a full body muscle fullness and even some mild vascularity despite my plump proportions.

Strength continued to climb through week 4, but not as impressively as during 3. To be honest, strength is fun but more of an afterthought for me. I'm more concerned with quality and intensity of the workouts than poundages.

Sides continue to be mild. Libido is usually up following form/trione dosing for a few hours. There are only occasional feelings of "flat" libido, which is the best I can describe it. Testicular atophy has continued but at a VERY slow rate. It's only noticable to me since I probably play with my balls too much anyway LOL

I have had no androgenic sides including shedding, rage-esque irritability, or acne. I don't think I'm very susceptable to any of those sides. I genetically have crispy dry skin which is always clear. I have had a few episodes of thinning in the front like a receeding hairline, but none ever on cycle. From what I understand, this is different than MPB. If I were to use logic, I'd say I AM susceptible to rage sides because I'm naturally a grumpy person. But, again, no noticable mood swings on this cycle.

 

[Ziquor]

Powerfull is top notch in terms of sleep quality and dealing with what seem to be mild prolactin issues. It made me too tired during the day, but I just had to adjust my dosing strategies. I'm using it right now at only 2caps per night on a relatively empty stomach and it's working just fine.

x3 - I really had surprisingly potent effects from Powerfull. I been wondering how well the Bulk 1-carboxy stacks up.

It's only noticable to me since I probably play with my balls too much anyway LOL

 

[UNCfan1]

Wow I missed alot!! Superdrol huh? Good luck with the rest of your cycle Celc.

I was thinking about changing my planned cycle from Epi/Halo to Epi/SD. Doing 3 weeks with Epi and the last 2 weeks with Mdrol. Not sure yet, but I will follow the rest!

 

[celc5]

Well, I see Ziquor is a wise guy eh? *celc does his dancing monkey routine for everyone's entertainment :lol: Btw, I've seen PoopyPants give a thumbsup to the bulk 1carboxy. You may want to sift through his posts to confirm that though.

UNC, I think running 20-30mg epi alongside SD would be a great stack. I felt fantastic during that bridge week myself.

Maybe 7-15 days at 10mg SD and then 7-15 days at 20mg pending your sides. Thundergod did this for a 3 weeker and he might be a good source of info if you continue to think about that stack. Also, don't forget about prevention in terms of prolactin, libido, and possible aromatization (even though it's not SUPPOSED to).

Another option would be a bridge. I'd run epi 30/40/50 and add 10mg SD during the 50 wk. From there you can bump SD to 20mg and carefully add in your "prevention" system.

Finally, keep in mind I'm very cautious with poundage increases. For most who don't plan their routines as strictly as I do, have frequent joint issues on both compounds even used seperately. Temptation to overload the bar IS certainly a real issue.

 

[UNCfan1]

Well, I see Ziquor is a wise guy eh? *celc does his dancing monkey routine for everyone's entertainment :lol: Btw, I've seen PoopyPants give a thumbsup to the bulk 1carboxy. You may want to sift through his posts to confirm that though.

UNC, I think running 20-30mg epi alongside SD would be a great stack. I felt fantastic during that bridge week myself.

Maybe 7-15 days at 10mg SD and then 7-15 days at 20mg pending your sides. Thundergod did this for a 3 weeker and he might be a good source of info if you continue to think about that stack. Also, don't forget about prevention in terms of prolactin, libido, and possible aromatization (even though it's not SUPPOSED to).

Another option would be a bridge. I'd run epi 30/40/50 and add 10mg SD during the 50 wk. From there you can bump SD to 20mg and carefully add in your "prevention" system.

Finally, keep in mind I'm very cautious with poundage increases. For most who don't plan their routines as strictly as I do, have frequent joint issues on both compounds even used seperately. Temptation to overload the bar IS certainly a real issue.

I was thinking about trying out dermacrine during the cycle since Solomon has had such good results with his previous cycles. I like your idea of hitting the Epi high and then adding in the SD. Maybe I will follow something close to your E-form/6oxo and add some Lipotrophin-PM per Solomon and P-5-P for prolactin.

PCT will include some Nolva that I have and either some Inihibit-E or 6-bromo. Prob go with the IE since its so cheap. I might follow Matt Cahill's idea of dosing ATD 1 cap for the first week during PCT and then EOD there after. I don't want to suppress my estrogen to much or let it rebound to much with the Nolva. I will prob do a lower dose of Nolva. I seen some guys use smaller amounts of Nolva for their designer cycles.

CEL has a new support product, or I might just go with 400mg of SAMe thru out the cycle and PCT or combo of both once the addition of Mdrol gets in there. Also I will add some bulk ALCAR per Dinoiii to keep the androgen recpeters going.

I read that Choline needs to be taken with ALCAR...do you know what reason for?

 

[Ziquor]

CEL's Cycle Assist is looking HOT! It's already capped too for around $30 one month supply.

 

[UNCfan1]

CEL's Cycle Assist is looking HOT! It's already capped too for around $30 one month supply.

Very nice right!:thumbsup:

 

[Ziquor]

Whoever didn't see yet:

 

[celc5]

UNC, I choose my AI's for their postive effects in addition to their estrogen prevention role. IMO, why choose ATD and have to dose cautiously when you could run 6oxo or 6bromo and have a good time in pct?

Take my opinion on Dermacrine with a grain of salt since I've never used it myself. However, when I looked into it, I saw that it has a nice reputation for maintaining libido on stacks that are harsh in that regard. But, tell me this, aren't there about 300 ways to combat libido issues at a fraction of the price?

Also, after SD you start seeing most issues pop up around 3 wks into pct. I'm gonna run my SERM for 4 weeks but keep the AI in play for about 6 weeks. I give a huge thumbs down to the every other day ai dosing, especially after a SD run. However, I'm sure you could get away with it after a halo or epi solo run.

Looking over the ingredient profile, CEL has always been a good source for info on Saw Palmetto. He knows his stuff if you can catch him on other boards. However, I'm personally not into blocking dht unless I have a definate problem already.

Choline seems to be the talk of the town alongside nootropic products. I have absolutely zero information to offer on that topic as I haven't looked into either all that much. DBin mentioned alcar earlier in my log. He might be a good source of info.

 

[slow-mun]

I see your point. So you're thinking the liver protection interfered with methylation absorption processes. I dosed my methyls at 730am and 4pm. I dosed my SamE at 9 or 930pm. Maybe you're thinking the supposed 4hr rule didn't help?

Do you think the SamE interfered with the potency of the nonmethyl sol? I'm not sure I've heard of any issues in that regard, but I'd be willing to listen if you had any ideas/theories.

Edit: since we're talking about liver protection, I suspect milk thistle and/or salymarin to be completely innefective in liver protection. But that's just my opinion.

I think SAM-e may just work a little too well. I used to always use milk thistle and NAC prior to using SAM-e and it seems as if my results with methyls has waned a bit, since I started exclusively using SAM-e. I'll put my theory up to testing soon. I have been off of SAM-e for a couple of weeks(and have all kinds of extra pocket cash:lol and will run a methyl cycle in another month or so, sans any SAM-e. Anyhow, this might also explain why Voodoo runs these awful cycles and doesn't appear to gain anything from them. FWIW, my best results with SAM-e have been when I would wake up at 5:00 am and take SAM-e and then dose my methyls at 10:00 am and 4:00 pm.

 

[slow-mun]

UNC, I choose my AI's for their postive effects in addition to their estrogen prevention role. IMO, why choose ATD and have to dose cautiously when you could run 6oxo or 6bromo and have a good time in pct?

Take my opinion on Dermacrine with a grain of salt since I've never used it myself. However, when I looked into it, I saw that it has a nice reputation for maintaining libido on stacks that are harsh in that regard. But, tell me this, aren't there about 300 ways to combat libido issues at a fraction of the price?

I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion on AI's. Dermacrine(OTOH) really has to be experienced. I'm telling you, it does not feel like oral DHEA or an herbal, OTC test booster of any sort. Its very close to feeling like 4-AD on cycle.

 

[UNCfan1]

UNC, I choose my AI's for their postive effects in addition to their estrogen prevention role. IMO, why choose ATD and have to dose cautiously when you could run 6oxo or 6bromo and have a good time in pct?

Take my opinion on Dermacrine with a grain of salt since I've never used it myself. However, when I looked into it, I saw that it has a nice reputation for maintaining libido on stacks that are harsh in that regard. But, tell me this, aren't there about 300 ways to combat libido issues at a fraction of the price?

Also, after SD you start seeing most issues pop up around 3 wks into pct. I'm gonna run my SERM for 4 weeks but keep the AI in play for about 6 weeks. I give a huge thumbs down to the every other day ai dosing, especially after a SD run. However, I'm sure you could get away with it after a halo or epi solo run.

Looking over the ingredient profile, CEL has always been a good source for info on Saw Palmetto. He knows his stuff if you can catch him on other boards. However, I'm personally not into blocking dht unless I have a definate problem already.

Choline seems to be the talk of the town alongside nootropic products. I have absolutely zero information to offer on that topic as I haven't looked into either all that much. DBin mentioned alcar earlier in my log. He might be a good source of info.

As always great info Celc. You know I love 6-bromo and that would be my first choice, but with money being an issue I would more than likely go with the ATD, of course I will not be running this for some time with my upcoming X-factor:thumbsupbe sure you guys follow it) Anyhow why the thumbs down on running ATD EOD after SD?

Well how can I be cheap bastard with going with Inhibit-E but willing to pay $50 for Dermacrine:think: HA! I will just save up for both Dermacrine and HDx2. Yes there are plenty of ways to combat libido issues but damn it if Sol hasn't sold me on Dermacrine.

I also like and agree with Dinoiii's PCT advice with running my AI/ATD 1,2,3,2,1. I will prob go with that and use the Nolva for 4 weeks. This should def help out with any type of rebound.

I will hunt around more about ALCAR and possibly using Choline with it.

Am I making any sense in this post? I feel like I am not HA! I need to go to bed.

 

[thebigt]

when i am at work and i have to lift something heavy, i brace myself and mentally pump myself up in preparation. i know i am having a successful cycle when i am in a constant state of readiness to lift heavy shiit, without hesitation. in all honesty i have only had 2 cycles that were that good. if you get that feeling of always being ready to lift heavy stuff then you are probably having a good cycle. ok, enough rambling.

 

[celc5]

I think SAM-e may just work a little too well.

I see your point, looking back at things, I gained 6 pounds lean mass and an additional 2 fat so 8 pounds total. Even though I dosed EXTREMELY conservatively, if the liver support interfered with the methyl, I still can't see gaining 6 pounds of lean mass in 28 days :think:

Btw, IIRC you and doc helped me with a more intelligent dosing protocol with SamE first thing in the morning during my phera cycle. That made complete sense but doesn't fit my hectic schedule and meal plan this time around.

Sol, it sort of sounds like you use Dermacrine the way I use Formestane as a light test base. I don't know for sure, but suspect the 4OHT to be super close to the 4AD. Anyhow, if that's the case, I may have to shell out the extra 50 bucks for Dermacrine next cycle because I know I'll be clean out of formestane by then.

UNC, that ramp and taper plan looks fine to me. I'm not sure about active life/half life with atd. But, it's just that I can see issues popping up over night after a SD run, which is why I prefer consistent dosing and getting fancy with every other day. Trust me, SD is a different beast unlike epis or halos with all sorts of weird things going on with estrogen and prolactin. Phera had this same "dirty" feeling too, but on a MUCH milder level.

Bigt, that's the way I felt on phera and halo. But, with havoc/furaz, I don't want to do ANY work because of lethargy. Thankfully, that changes as soon as I walk into the gym and want to lift the rack :head:

 

[DBinMD]

Choline seems to be the talk of the town alongside nootropic products. I have absolutely zero information to offer on that topic as I haven't looked into either all that much. DBin mentioned alcar earlier in my log. He might be a good source of info.

Seems like I missed a lot in the last day. I think I need to correct myself about the choline. After looking into it more I was reminded that ALCAR is converted to acetyl-choline. So I don’t think adding more choline is going to do any good. It’s is probably a carrier over from when I used to take the cheaper L-carnitine. But within the last year I’ve discovered NP’s bulk product of Acetyl carnitine is even cheaper. When the choline bottle runs out I’ll probably stop.

One thing I did find interesting is that it works well with Lipoic Acid.
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcarnitine
It is claimed that ALCAR provides several benefits. Advocates of acetyl-L-carnitine market it as a life extension supplement. There may be some benefit in cases of end stage renal disease or peripheral arterial disease.[2] When supplemented alongside Lipoic acid, ALCAR appears to reverse some of the damage to mitochondria associated with aging.[3]
The percentage of L-carnitine that is absorbed when taken via oral supplementation is much lower than that from food sources. In one particular study, it was shown that approximately 20% of orally supplemented L-carnitine is absorbed, with a bioavailability of roughly 15%, as compared to a bioavailability of between 60% and 75% when absorbed from food.[4]
Choline supplementation may lead to increased L-carnitine retention.[4]
ALCAR supplementation has been shown to be neuroprotective in instances of cerebral ischemia,[5] peripheral nerve injury,[6] and to be beneficial in the treatment of Parkinson's disease in animals.[7]
ALCAR supplementation has also been shown to reverse syptoms associated with mental decline in the elderly.[8]
ALCAR is being researched in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.[9]

 

[Ziquor]

Great info DB. ALCAR's advertised sometimes as a more bio available L-Carnitine yet it seems they can have different effects all together.

 

[UNCfan1]

Great info DB. ALCAR's advertised sometimes as a more bio available L-Carnitine yet it seems they can have different effects all together.

Yep, from what I read ALCAR seems to benefit the brain more as other forms are better for the heart.

 

[DBinMD]

Great info DB. ALCAR's advertised sometimes as a more bio available L-Carnitine yet it seems they can have different effects all together.

Yep, from what I read ALCAR seems to benefit the brain more as other forms are better for the heart.

Thanks guys, what really peaked my interest was the interaction of it and Lipoic Acid. I’m a big fan of na-Rala, just wish it wasn’t so expensive.

 

[celc5]

Good discussion fellas. All topics are open in my logs and I enjoy the learning that's going on here :cheers:

Day 29

Superdrol 20

Today was shoulders day. I felt that I could have went heavier again today, but decided with my injury history to play it safe. I've been adding 5 pounds every week to my shoulder presses and felt that going any heavier could jeopardize joint integrity and put undue stress on my rotator cuff. So, I kept all my weights the same today and simply added 1-2 reps on all my sets.

Pump was great today and I really noticed my posterior delts popping out. I pay more attention to them than most average joes in the gym, so I'm proud of that progress in the last year.

Irritability was up today when I got a little pissed while driving. I'm not really one for road rage but noticed that I was irritated over things I typically ignore.

Sleep was next to impossible last night. I felt like my body was on fire sweating with my heart racing. I staggered about 3 different sleep aides at full dose and nothing worked. I have no clue what the issue was. I had a reasonable workout yesterday and used no stims all day either. BP was slightly elevated last night as well (+9 systolic) but was only a hair above baseline today (+2 systolic, negligable IMO). I'll be sure to continue to monitor and wrap things up soon if this becomes a pattern.

 

[Ziquor]

Damn that's crazy 3 sleep aides didn't help. <--- I would've assumed from hearing this, that you're BP was crazy high - but 9 points isn't too bad.

 

[celc5]

Damn that's crazy 3 sleep aides didn't help. <--- I would've assumed from hearing this, that you're BP was crazy high - but 9 points isn't too bad.

Agreed. Even +20 wouldn't make me freak to be honest.

I've felt a +40 systolic before when I dropped taurine too soon after my last dose of phera. Trust me when I say I felt like I was gonna die and +9 doesn't come close. I'd say the issue was that phera was still active into the first week of pct and kidney stress led to that BP spike. Btw, a few mega doses of taurine resolved the issue within about 8 hours of me figuring out what the problem was.

Last night sleep was erratic again. Lean Dreams knocked me out but I woke up wide awake after only about 5 hours. I'm a shiity sleeper anyway so I've actually been surprised how well I've been sleeping this cycle. Again, no knee jerk reactions but we'll see how this rides out in the next few days.

 

[Ziquor]

Agreed. Even +20 wouldn't make me freak to be honest.

I've felt a +40 systolic before when I dropped taurine too soon after my last dose of phera. Trust me when I say I felt like I was gonna die and +9 doesn't come close. I'd say the issue was that phera was still active into the first week of pct and kidney stress led to that BP spike. Btw, a few mega doses of taurine resolved the issue within about 8 hours of me figuring out what the problem was.

Last night sleep was erratic again. Lean Dreams knocked me out but I woke up wide awake after only about 5 hours. I'm a shiity sleeper anyway so I've actually been surprised how well I've been sleeping this cycle. Again, no knee jerk reactions but we'll see how this rides out in the next few days.

No doubt, I know how you feel. I've had sleeping issues since I was about 18. Runs in my family actually. I ran Abyss 5 days on / 2 off and it worked really good for me. I've tried every sleep aide out probably too, OTC and scripted.

 

[celc5]

No doubt, I know how you feel. I've had sleeping issues since I was about 18. Runs in my family actually. I ran Abyss 5 days on / 2 off and it worked really good for me. I've tried every sleep aide out probably too, OTC and scripted.

Interestingly, I've found a lot of surprised people when I say that Lean Dreams works for me. It's top notch for me, but generally has poor feedback to be honest.

On the flip side, hype sold me on Abyss and I ufortunately didn't respond to that product at all. I think I even went up to 6 or 7 caps.

Lately, I've found that making my own blends works most freqently for me. Tonight, I'm going to take 2 caps powerfull, 15 minutes later 2 caps NP tryptophan, 15 minutes later 1g sublingual GABA. If that shiit doesn't knock me out, I must be on crack LOL

Day 30

SD 20

Today was back and bis day. I had a very poor workout today. I was lathargic even in the gym. I believe the poor sleep quality is catching up with me, my workout is getting stale and is ready for a change, and mild cramping is starting to occur.

I slightly upped my taurine dosage today to be sure the cramps don't become problematic. On the flip side, pumps were the best I've EVER experienced in my life!

I feel a bit burned out. So, I'm going to make a move to help decide what to do next. The next 2 days will be off days, with the exception of light abs/low back/cardio session. I have a feeling this will rejuvenate things for one final week. If I still have this burned out feeling this weekend, I'll move to pct. Take 2-3 days off and roll into the hst routine.

The catch 22 is that I look great. Honestly, the testicles have NOT atrophied any more since adding in the SD and libido is still normal to slightly elevated with the low dose AI's. SD is a tricky adversary. It tempts you with these fast impressive gains, even when you know it's quietly sneaking up on your body.

 

[Trauma1]

Interestingly, I've found a lot of surprised people when I say that Lean Dreams works for me. It's top notch for me, but generally has poor feedback to be honest.

On the flip side, hype sold me on Abyss and I ufortunately didn't respond to that product at all. I think I even went up to 6 or 7 caps.

Lately, I've found that making my own blends works most freqently for me. Tonight, I'm going to take 2 caps powerfull, 15 minutes later 2 caps NP tryptophan, 15 minutes later 1g sublingual GABA. If that shiit doesn't knock me out, I must be on crack LOL

Day 30

SD 20

Today was back and bis day. I had a very poor workout today. I was lathargic even in the gym. I believe the poor sleep quality is catching up with me, my workout is getting stale and is ready for a change, and mild cramping is starting to occur.

I slightly upped my taurine dosage today to be sure the cramps don't become problematic. On the flip side, pumps were the best I've EVER experienced in my life!

I feel a bit burned out. So, I'm going to make a move to help decide what to do next. The next 2 days will be off days, with the exception of light abs/low back/cardio session. I have a feeling this will rejuvenate things for one final week. If I still have this burned out feeling this weekend, I'll move to pct. Take 2-3 days off and roll into the hst routine.

The catch 22 is that I look great. Honestly, the testicles have NOT atrophied any more since adding in the SD and libido is still normal to slightly elevated with the low dose AI's. SD is a tricky adversay. It tempts you with these fast impressive gains, even when you know it's quietly sneaking up on your body.

Very impressive log thusfar celc. I have to say that lean dreams works well for me as well. It was one of the first sleep products i tried and actually liked.

Do you take any pre-workout stims to help with the lethargy? Superdrol is definitely a tricky adversary indeed. Keep up the good work my friend. Let the great results that reflect in the mirror continue to motivate you.

 

[celc5]

Very impressive log thusfar celc. I have to say that lean dreams works well for me as well. It was one of the first sleep products i tried and actually liked.

Do you take any pre-workout stims to help with the lethargy? Superdrol is definitely a tricky adversary indeed. Keep up the good work my friend. Let the great results that reflect in the mirror continue to motivate you.

Thanks bro! I'm REALLY happy with this cycle. The part we goofed on was week 2 at 30mg. Otherwise, the low prevelance of sides with Havoc made those 6 pounds of lean mass smooth as silk :afro:

Yes, I do take preworkout stims. When I get a chance to lift in the morning, 25 or 50mg ephedra has me ROARING :head: But I don't dare take that for evening workouts. I keep it simple with 2caps RPM for evenig workouts. It gives me an awake/alert feeling but not stimmed enough to interfere with sleep.

When I'm off cycle, I prefer TRAC Extreme NO as my stim of choice. I'll pick that up for pct if my tub of Fast Twitch runs out, which is a really nice product as well.

 

[Ziquor]

Talking about possibly ending and starting PCT is a great testament and hopefully many inexperienced guys researching will see this log regardless of what you decide to do. Too many guys are running crazy **** at crazy doses these days with no regard.

 

[celc5]

Talking about possibly ending and starting PCT is a great testament and hopefully many inexperienced guys researching will see this log regardless of what you decide to do. Too many guys are running crazy **** at crazy doses these days with no regard.

dude, did you just become a CEL rep or has that label been there all along? I really like your product line. I ran a sponsored log for Brian last fall and it was a great experience. The funny thing is, H-drol logs popped up like crazy after I ran that log. :head:

Well, in terms of ending the cycle, it wouldn't be a situation of dumping it all together. I'm already about a week extended from where I initially planned because of the bridge. But I'm still about a week short of what I think COULD still be a reasonable length. I just want to make sure I make a well-thought-out decision without any knee jerk reactions one way or another. One thing I know for sure, is that workout routines will be improvised over the next few days because the fun factor needs to be reintroduced ASAP.

 

[thebigt]

celc, that h-drol log you ran was a real piece of work. one of the best ive ever seen. this one is interesting just to see how you react to the sd, but the h-drol log was A-1.:cheers:

 

[mcneil0303]

did you see anything with the dhea on cycle celc

 

[celc5]

did you see anything with the dhea on cycle celc

That's a good question. My experience with dhea is limited, just as a disclaimer.

During my phera run, I had dhea in the mix for approximately the first 3 weeks, but admittedly probably only dosed 50-75mg per day. I had it in there with hopes of maintaining libido, and libido was fine. But during the 4th and 5th week I added formestane and that overshadows just about any other supplement in my stash, including anything for libido. So I dropped the dhea.

This time around with Havoc, I dosed the dhea really consistently at 100mg per day. I found a super cheap generic at Wal Mart and thought, why not? In my personal experience, Havoc boosted my libido up to formestane-like levels (maybe even possibly higher???). I attribute the libido boost to the epithio, not the dhea.

In terms of some claiming that dhea will help with ON cycle lethargy. I have one word. "HA!" No dice.

My personal thoughts are that the epithio is fantastic for libido and strength at low dosages in the 30-40 range. I'd say it's better for lean mass if you continue to ramp the dosage beyond 40, but at the expense of libido loss. I doubt the dhea will save the day in that scenario, unless you're one of the crazies who doses it in the 500mg-1g range :run:

 

[Ziquor]

dude, did you just become a CEL rep or has that label been there all along? I really like your product line. I ran a sponsored log for Brian last fall and it was a great experience. The funny thing is, H-drol logs popped up like crazy after I ran that log. :head:

Well the AM rep thing just became official since CEL just became a sponsor here. Brian's real good people.

Your H-Drol log was another fabulous log. There should be 'best logs ever' in the wall of fame

 

[Ziquor]

That's a good question. My experience with dhea is limited, just as a disclaimer.

During my phera run, I had dhea in the mix for approximately the first 3 weeks, but admittedly probably only dosed 50-75mg per day. I had it in there with hopes of maintaining libido, and libido was fine. But during the 4th and 5th week I added formestane and that overshadows just about any other supplement in my stash, including anything for libido. So I dropped the dhea.

This time around with Havoc, I dosed the dhea really consistently at 100mg per day. I found a super cheap generic at Wal Mart and thought, why not? In my personal experience, Havoc boosted my libido up to formestane-like levels (maybe even possibly higher???). I attribute the libido boost to the epithio, not the dhea.

In terms of some claiming that dhea will help with ON cycle lethargy. I have one word. "HA!" No dice.

My personal thoughts are that the epithio is fantastic for libido and strength at low dosages in the 30-40 range. I'd say it's better for lean mass if you continue to ramp the dosage beyond 40, but at the expense of libido loss. I doubt the dhea will save the day in that scenario, unless you're one of the crazies who doses it in the 500mg-1g range :run:

I've always wondered about DHEA myself. I ran it alone once, just to see if I got a WO boost and it did nothing for me. Also every study I seen on it shows it doesn't increase test levels. But some swear by it so I dunno.

 

[thebigt]

I've always wondered about DHEA myself. I ran it alone once, just to see if I got a WO boost and it did nothing for me. Also every study I seen on it shows it doesn't increase test levels. But some swear by it so I dunno.

the best dhea product i ever used was get diesel's raw test. it was timed release dhea and pred. i have been experimenting with dhea and pal's reset ad, so far so good. but i like the results of reset, don't know how much the dhea is adding. imo i really believe the quality of the dhea is more important than how much you take.

 

[UNCfan1]

That's a good question. My experience with dhea is limited, just as a disclaimer.

During my phera run, I had dhea in the mix for approximately the first 3 weeks, but admittedly probably only dosed 50-75mg per day. I had it in there with hopes of maintaining libido, and libido was fine. But during the 4th and 5th week I added formestane and that overshadows just about any other supplement in my stash, including anything for libido. So I dropped the dhea.

This time around with Havoc, I dosed the dhea really consistently at 100mg per day. I found a super cheap generic at Wal Mart and thought, why not? In my personal experience, Havoc boosted my libido up to formestane-like levels (maybe even possibly higher???). I attribute the libido boost to the epithio, not the dhea.

In terms of some claiming that dhea will help with ON cycle lethargy. I have one word. "HA!" No dice.

My personal thoughts are that the epithio is fantastic for libido and strength at low dosages in the 30-40 range. I'd say it's better for lean mass if you continue to ramp the dosage beyond 40, but at the expense of libido loss. I doubt the dhea will save the day in that scenario, unless you're one of the crazies who doses it in the 500mg-1g range :run:

I couldn't agree more. I have seen alot of logs with Epithio products in this is right on the money IMHO. From my experience to.

Hey Celc there is a good DHEA product out I think its called Sustain:icon_lol: Loan your boy $50 so I can confirm Soloman's good feedback on the product!

 

[celc5]

Ziquor, thanks for the compliment on the log. I'm pretty sure that deal worked out well for both parties I think BigJohn is logging your halo right now on BBing. He's having nice results as expected. IMO the new e-stane is likely to have positive feedback as well.

BigT, I see your point regarding quality. That's definately a possibility with the drastically different feedback regarding dhea. At that, I'm not sure I can really follow the andro-ph pathways that I've seen drawn up.

Remember that log where the fella ran like 1g dhea per day alongside atd? Even though he gave the stack a good review, I think the dhea did nothing for him. I never actually said that so he didn't feel insulted. But I could tell you knew what I was getting at when you mentioned that his results mirrored my 6oxo solo results.

UNC, I think the key ingredient in the Sustain and Alpha is the res. But the Dermacrine is supposed be another dhea/preg with a bit better feedback than typical dhea. This might be a case of better quality like BigT suggested with Raw Test.

 

[thebigt]

Ziquor, thanks for the compliment on the log. I'm pretty sure that deal worked out well for both parties I think BigJohn is logging your halo right now on BBing. He's having nice results as expected. IMO the new e-stane is likely to have positive feedback as well.

BigT, I see your point regarding quality. That's definately a possibility with the drastically different feedback regarding dhea. At that, I'm not sure I can really follow the andro-ph pathways that I've seen drawn up.

Remember that log where the fella ran like 1g dhea per day alongside atd? Even though he gave the stack a good review, I think the dhea did nothing for him. I never actually said that so he didn't feel insulted. But I could tell you knew what I was getting at when you mentioned that his results mirrored my 6oxo solo results.

UNC, I think the key ingredient in the Sustain and Alpha is the res. But the Dermacrine is supposed be another dhea/preg with a bit better feedback than typical dhea. This might be a case of better quality like BigT suggested with Raw Test.

there might be a case made for dhea/preg. i liked raw test which was dhea/preg. sol likes dermacrine which is dhea/preg. reset ad and dhea are good together, again dhea/preg. you starting to notice a trend?

 

[Ziquor]

Ziquor, thanks for the compliment on the log. I'm pretty sure that deal worked out well for both parties I think BigJohn is logging your halo right now on BBing. He's having nice results as expected. IMO the new e-stane is likely to have positive feedback as well.

BigT, I see your point regarding quality. That's definately a possibility with the drastically different feedback regarding dhea. At that, I'm not sure I can really follow the andro-ph pathways that I've seen drawn up.

Remember that log where the fella ran like 1g dhea per day alongside atd? Even though he gave the stack a good review, I think the dhea did nothing for him. I never actually said that so he didn't feel insulted. But I could tell you knew what I was getting at when you mentioned that his results mirrored my 6oxo solo results.

UNC, I think the key ingredient in the Sustain and Alpha is the res. But the Dermacrine is supposed be another dhea/preg with a bit better feedback than typical dhea. This might be a case of better quality like BigT suggested with Raw Test.

I'll have to check that out. It's funny you mention about that log I thought the same exact thing. He seemed almost like he ran a placebo but the little effect he did get was likely from the ATD.

 

[Ziquor]

there might be a case made for dhea/preg. i liked raw test which was dhea/preg. sol likes dermacrine which is dhea/preg. reset ad and dhea are good together, again dhea/preg. you starting to notice a trend?

Damn that Dermacrine. Solomon mentioned before how it worked well, now I'm sold. Looks like there goes another $50

 

[thebigt]

Damn that Dermacrine. Solomon mentioned before how it worked well, now I'm sold. Looks like there goes another $50

soloman's recommendation goes a long way. everything he has recommended has been solid.

 

[celc5]

Day 1 PCT

C1 Tor 120
Hx2 3caps

Libido absolutely flatlined last night. I got in a good 11 days of SD before my rod showed signs of feeling more like a noodle :lol: So, weighing pros vs. cons, I figured it was time to wrap this one up. Workout quality was starting to suffer, sleep was erratic, and I've pretty much had it with the lethargy. Lean mass gains are starting to slow down. I also think it's time for the planned pct hst routine to spark my workout motivation as well.

I have a theory concerning the sleep issue. I dosed my SD 10mg about 7 or 8 am. And then again at noon or 1pm. I felt great all day but anxiety came on strong about 9 hours after my last dosage. I was sweating like a mother. Sexual desire would be aggressive but performance was lacking enough for me to notice the last 2 nights. My theory is that natural test was TRYING to rebound every night. I have no science to back that theory but it's a passing thought that I had today.

If my theory is on the right track, trust me fellas I've NEVER experienced suppression before. EVER! Not with halo, phera, or havoc. This was a bizarre feeling for sure.

Although this particular post has a negative vibe, that does NOT represent my feelings toward this cycle whatsoever. Havoc was mild as can be and still got me about 5 pounds of lean mass in 26 days. Wow, right? The Furaz was a dud, but it didn't hinder my cycle. And the bridge to SD seemed to be the perfect way to gauge how I'd respond to that big daddy of designers. I suspect that a LOT of people avoid it because it's a libido killer. Well isn't this a clever way to reap the SD benefits before it completely renders you useless in the sack?

I plan to update post #2 with stats and final reviews within the next few days. I'll probably update weekly with pct progression, unless sides pop up that need discussed more closely.

 

[NasD]

Guys, regarding DHEA supplementation, it seems to me that those that report the most benefits from DHEA seem to be older (> 40) brothaz. I think the only way to really be able to quantify results is with blood tests and I haven't come across anyone who has posted any after DHEA supplementation. If anyone else has seen such data I'd love to read it as well.

 

[celc5]

Day 4 PCT

The first 2 days of pct were absolute hell. This is BY FAR the hardest I've ever been shut down in addition to a few other problems.

The 120mg of torem made me an absolute roller coaster with mood swings. By day 3, my body seemed to accomodate and mood evened out. Testicular mass seems to have returned very quickly although load size is pathetic to be honest.

Day 1 and 2 were nausea laiden. To my disappointment, Hyperdrol X2 was the culprit. I ran Hx2 before and thought it was a great supplement. My friend traded me the Hx2 because he was throwing up while on it. I called him a pussy but I guess the joke was on me?

I now have 2 bottles of Hx2 up for trade. 1 is sealed and I'll trade it for another sealed item. 1 is opened and probably minus 12 caps (I used 2 days and he used 2 days worth). I'll also do a 1 for 1 open item or sealed item of lesser value for my open Hx2. Make offers

I have no signs of estrogenic problems and have simply dropped the AI until my 6oxo order gets here. I don't see this as a problem in this time frame with the torem in place.

Finally, libido is non-existent. Thank goodness some Aspire36 got me through the weekend. Luckily with the support plan from on-cycle, I had none of the typical headache issues that I've gotten in the past with A36. I have Paravol and Z-force on the way. Btw I'm aware that Zforce doesn't contain the asparate. I'm using Primaforce ZMA for that and I just wanted some extra trib in the mix.

I'm updating post #2 for my Havoc and Furazadrol final reviews. I have skinfolds but haven't calculated them yet. I'll add those and SD reviews later as I recover.

Finally, lethargy is subsiding quickly. Workouts have been a blast. I'm happy as helll to be back on the HST bandwagon

 

[thebigt]

Day 4 PCT

The first 2 days of pct were absolute hell. This is BY FAR the hardest I've ever been shut down in addition to a few other problems.

The 120mg of torem made me an absolute roller coaster with mood swings. By day 3, my body seemed to accomodate and mood evened out. Testicular mass seems to have returned very quickly although load size is pathetic to be honest.

Day 1 and 2 were nausea laiden. To my disappointment, Hyperdrol X2 was the culprit. I ran Hx2 before and thought it was a great supplement. My friend traded me the Hx2 because he was throwing up while on it. I called him a pussy but I guess the joke was on me?

I now have 2 bottles of Hx2 up for trade. 1 is sealed and I'll trade it for another sealed item. 1 is opened and probably minus 12 caps (I used 2 days and he used 2 days worth). I'll also do a 1 for 1 open item or sealed item of lesser value for my open Hx2. Make offers

I have no signs of estrogenic problems and have simply dropped the AI until my 6oxo order gets here. I don't see this as a problem in this time frame with the torem in place.

Finally, libido is non-existent. Thank goodness some Aspire36 got me through the weekend. Luckily with the support plan from on-cycle, I had none of the typical headache issues that I've gotten in the past with A36. I have Paravol and Z-force on the way. Btw I'm aware that Zforce doesn't contain the asparate. I'm using Primaforce ZMA for that and I just wanted some extra trib in the mix.

I'm updating post #2 for my Havoc and Furazadrol final reviews. I have skinfolds but haven't calculated them yet. I'll add those and SD reviews later as I recover.

Finally, lethargy is subsiding quickly. Workouts have been a blast. I'm happy as helll to be back on the HST bandwagon

i hope everything turns out ok, celc. those sides seem a little rough for me. confirmed, i won't ever be using a sd clone.

 

[celc5]

i hope everything turns out ok, celc. those sides seem a little rough for me. confirmed, i won't ever be using a sd clone.

Well, you're getting "Live" updates broski as to what this drug does. That's the whole reason to follow logs, so you don't make the same mistakes as celc :lol: Sure makes halo, havoc, and phera a helll of a lot more attractive choices to me. Tren, Bold, 1ad, and M1T have officially been scratched off of my "to do" list because of these last few days.

Interestingly, I sort of feel like the SD gains are going to be easy to maintain though. It's just a feeling I have and I guess time will tell.

the only side that I attribute to the SD is the libido loss. Otherwise, I think those who helped me plan this really helped to minimize some of the nastier gyno, BP, and prolactin effects. Otherwise, I responded poorly to the torem initially but seem to have adjusted to it. Also the Hx2 was a surprise problem that I didn't see coming at all.

The form/trione was helpful in maintaining libido ON cycle. But it simply "masked" the problem that was developing giving me false comfort. Double edged sword I guess :think: I expect things to pick up around day 10 pct.

 

[NasD]

celc, you want to speculate as to how different things might have been running SD solo? Could it be that the suppression that you experienced this cycle was more pronounced because when you introduced SD you were already slightly suppressed from the other compounds?

 

[thebigt]

celc, most of the cases of problems with sd have came months later. i suggest you stay on samE, milk thistle, and low dosed powerful and ai for a few months. 2 years ago a guy posted pre and post liver values and was shocked how bad they were, don't take anything for granted and protect yourself as well as possible.:thumbsup:

 

[celc5]

Could it be that the suppression that you experienced this cycle was more pronounced because when you introduced SD you were already slightly suppressed from the other compounds?

yes, definately. I just didn't expect to feel like a train wreck for the first 2 days. I'm feeling pretty good right now, except for the libido. The best part is to get rid of the lethargy, whoa that was a biitch. Anyway, I expect libido to be back in full swing by about day ten. If not, I'll be more worried at that point.

celc, most of the cases of problems with sd have came months later. i suggest you stay on samE, milk thistle, and low dosed powerful and ai for a few months. 2 years ago a guy posted pre and post liver values and was shocked how bad they were, don't take anything for granted and protect yourself as well as possible.:thumbsup:

Again, I fully agree. You guys are right on target My plan was to run my AI all the way through pct and to taper slowly at weeks 5 and 6. Extending that time period a few extra weeks is a definately a reasonable suggestion.

I also agree with the liver support and powerfull for an extended period. I'm stocked up on that as well.

I appreciate this discussion. There needs to be more of this type of talk during pct. It's usually all fun and games with ON cycle logs because we all get pumped to see the logger get ripped and tan. Then the crowd scatters when the fun's over. But I think BigT did a good job of stressing the importance of various pct strategies to me a little over a year ago when planning my first cycle. So this log will stay alive as long as there's quality discussion such as this going on.