How's your BP doing as compared to your normal levels and compared to your other 2 cycles? BP and HDL are the 2 things that can get really wacked for me on cycle.
Glad to be back, Fur is on my list to try.DBin, glad to see you on board. You had some good posts in that one fellas Phera log a while back! BP has not budged an inch. I'm taking 1.5g HB and I preloaded it for about 10 days.
As compared to my other cycles, BP was unaffected with halo.
BP was unaffected with Phera, but it did elevate substantially during the first week of post cycle (like +50mm systolic! Yikes!). I attribute that issue to stopping taurine while the phera was still active and set myself up for back pumps. I loaded up on about 15g taurine for a day or 2 and BP was back to normal. So, I simply tapered my taurine thereafter for about a week and have been fine since then.
Considering the medications, I want to hesitate to give you advice because I'm certainly not a physician.Glad to be back, Fur is on my list to try.
My systolic tends to run a little high anyway so I tried HB and AI cycle support. It didn't help at all, even when not on cycle and when I was on phera my BP wouldn't even register. Since back pumps haven't been much of an issure, I haven't done much taurine, I may try it again. So now I'm on a calcium channel blocker and an ACE inhibitor.
Thanks
The havoc should really start kicking in during week 2. Log is looking very nice celc.Statistical Progression:
...........Weight.....BF%.....Lean Mass.....Bodyfat
Initial....189.8......15.15......161.05.........28.75
Wk. 1....190.2......14.86......161.94........28.26
Wk. 2
Wk. 3
Final
Weekly Summary:
Week 1:
(+): decrease rest between sets, increased libido, increased drive and motivation in the gym
(-): lethargy, increased thirst, increased urination
Week 2:
Week 3:
Week 4:
Final Review:
Celc,Considering the medications, I want to hesitate to give you advice because I'm certainly not a physician.
I tried Now Foods HB 1.65 grams/day for 30 days. I did AI cycle support half strength for a couple months, too. The PB didn’t move 1 point. If taurine is a diuretic it may be worth trying since diuretics are usually prescribed, too.How did you dose the HB? I find that formestane DOES elevate my BP and it takes 1.5-2g HB to combat that. The majority suggest lower dosages, and quite frankly, it just doesn't cut it.
As a side note, I suspect that aggressively dosing taurine might help with BP, in the 10g range. I've done some very rudimentory research to look for evidence to support my suspician but never really found anything. It would be a relatively inexpensive experiment to run, even if it didn't help you.
Finally, I've noticed that light to moderate intensity underwater swimming for 20 minutes 4x/wk dropped my systolic FIFTEEN mm in only 2-3 weeks last summer!!!
I didn’t do any cardio that week either. So maybe the cardio has an effect on our systolic, too.Finally, I've noticed that light to moderate intensity underwater swimming for 20 minutes 4x/wk dropped my systolic FIFTEEN mm in only 2-3 weeks last summer!!!
What is she taking, Metoprolol?Celc,
Don’t worry about it, know I need to listen to my doctor. So far I’m happy with what he prescribed, I’m just looking at all the possibilies. My wife doesn’t like her’s. Her beta blocker won’t let her heart rate go into the cardio zone (it suppresses adrenaline).
I tried Now Foods HB 1.65 grams/day for 30 days. I did AI cycle support half strength for a couple months, too. The PB didn’t move 1 point. If taurine is a diuretic it may be worth trying since diuretics are usually prescribed, too.
It takes a lot of trial and error. A few weeks ago we went to the Jersey Shore for a week. I left all my supps at home to see if something I was taking was keeping it high. The surprise was it went up instead of down. So now I’m guessing my Alcar and R-ALA has something to do with keeping it lower.
I didn’t do any cardio that week either. So maybe the cardio has an effect on our systolic, too.
Atenolol, I think it's 50mgWhat is she taking, Metoprolol?
I don’t get dramatic effects. It’s kind of like creatine: it might help, it’s cheap (bulk at NP), no bad side effects, and is supposed to help with BP.Since you mentioned it, what are your thoughts on the ALCAR?
To me, the taste is somewhat citric, maybe like a mild lemon; definitely, not as bad tasting as a lot of stuff like GABA or BCAA’s. It would probably mix with water or juice. I mix it with a little left-over choline and stuff as much as can into a 000 cap, about 1.4-1.5 grams.Dbin, is the ALCAR tasteless and what dosages do you personally find effective. I might throw it into my post cycle plan if you convince me that it's worth it.
From 3 reps to 5 or 6 in 11 days, hard to beat. I’ll give it :thumbsup: :thumbsup:... chest workout. In similar fashion to my back workout, I increased from 3 to 5 or 6 reps on my heavy work.
I give a thumbsup to this super mild cycle so far :thumbsup:
I had thought about a bridge into superdrol. It may workout pretty good. I think the powerful and B6 added in would workout great.Day 15
Increased Havoc dosage to 40mg.
Shoulders workout today was excellent. Endurance and recovery between sets remains above average. I'm feeling some mild cramping in the rotator cuff and feet, which might be an indicator that I should increase my taurine dosage a little more.
Libido was through the roof today. I got in a quicky preworkout. Ironically, sexual activity tends to decrease my workout performance while it wakes my girl up. She did 35's on shoulder presses today for 6 reps, which I think is pretty impressive for a skinny little girl :lol:
I'm torn between finishing out this cycle as planned for an easy recovery or bridging into Superdrol starting day 22. If I bridge, I'd add in B6 and powerful at night for prolactin prevention. I'd also add in a low dose mix of TD formestane/trione. Any thoughts or opinions would be
appreciated.
I see your point. I was kicking myself when I decided to extend my phera cycle for a few extra weeks rather than bridging into Havoc or SD.Maybe a phera/superdrol combo. I just think (as with havoc) they both would either stack better with, or be preceeded by something more "wet" in nature.
I also suspect the SamE is helping to protect my joints. The common issues that I saw when sifting through epithio logs were joint problems and BP. I tend to be joint sensitive any time estrogen is lowered, so the SamE and ballpark 9-12g fish oil seems to be doing the trick.samE and hawthorn are both very good.
day 18, kinda surprised you haven't put on some mass.Day 18
Chest and tris workout today. I'm pretty sure I hit PRs for flat DB bench and BB Inclines as well. I added TEN POUNDS to my BB incline in the 10 rep range. That's the biggest jump I can remember having on that movement in years :head:
Libido is OUTRAGEOUS on this stack. I credit Havoc because sexual performance is unusually enhanced about 40 minutes after dosing. It's very noticable and consistently occurs with 2cap dosages. Libido enhancement is comparable to formestane and slightly better than ejaculoid, paravol, and vitrix (which are all effective supplements for me).
Lethargy is getting annoying so I've been stimming for early work days. I've noticed decreased load size and some very mild testicular atrophy this week. I'm having some mild irritability this week with the 40mg dosages of Havoc. Very mild bacne popped up this week as well.
No hair shedding noticed. I use Nizarol AD (otc version) 3x/week, but I suspect shedding wouldn't be an issue anyway.
Overall, I'm loving the quality of workouts on this stack. I'm pissed at the lack of lean mass gains though. None of the sides are worth mentioning in summary as they are as mild as mild can be.
Agreed. I blame myself though for choosing a poor combination of compounds for my goals. At this point, I feel that Furaz may have potential in muscle preservation cutting stacks. But does not fit recomp or lean mass goals. My Havoc dosages are too skimpy as well. I should have just went with 2 bottles of Havoc and started off right at 40mg and continued to ramp from there, maybe up to 60 or 70ish range.day 18, kinda surprised you haven't put on some mass.
Interesting celc. I hope you have great gains in the coming weeks with this. I agree that starting havoc at the 40mg range may have been a better fit for you.Day 22
Supderdrol 10mg
Havoc 40mg
Furazadrol 200mg
TD trione/formestane 80mg each (approximately)
All hell broke loose today! I'm talking crazy pumps, hardness, and strength! Every meal feels productive, every lift was strong and authoratative.
I credit the strong day the addition of TD trione/formestane. Both kick in rather quickly for me as I've run both several times. I also suspect that the 10mg Superdrol MIGHT also be wreaking some havoc. But wouldn't it to be too soon for that :think:
IF it's the Superdrol already, I might just keep it at 10mg while stacking with an extra bottle of epi once havoc runs out. This quick production certainly creates the good kind of dilemma for me in regards to continuation of the cycle. I'm picturing about 30-40 days total for this cycle so as not to get too crazy with my first bridge.
Sides wise, I'm a bit grumpy. Also libido feels a bit "flat" today comparatively to the rest of the cycle.
Trauma, Havoc is the real deal. But milder than I anticipated. I think starting at 30 was ok. It's just that second week was real stagnant, where an increase to 40 would have been more productive IMO. I know you have a lot of logs to sift through but your occasional posts here are always insightful and appreciated :cheers:Interesting celc. I hope you have great gains in the coming weeks with this. I agree that starting havoc at the 40mg range may have been a better fit for you.
I'm following along bud, good luck!
I wanted to bridge like this to SD during my phera cycle. But, made a poor decision and just extended the cycle. NasD, if you have any input to offer or questions, feel free to jump in bro. You always instigate good intelligent discussion.I can't wait to see what the addition of Superdrol does for you. I think the best part of this cycle is yet to come, both strength and LBM-wise.
Thanks for following T! I'm taking your on cycle AI philosophy to heart with the SD bridge. I have a hunch that the formestane is going to tame the SD beast... ROAR!!!!nice job buddy, keep it up.:thumbsup:
Nas, when I was preparing for my first cycle, I kept reading over and over how psycholigically depressing it was to see strength go down when the exogenous hormone was removed. Therefore, I decided right off the bat that a routine change for pct just makes sense to avoid ever seeing the numbers dwindle.celc, I think you stated in another thread/log somewhere but I can't readily find the post. Why do you change to HST during PCT? Also, have you ever tried DC?
PS - I love the "libido reports" in your logs, lmao. Most logs skip these details but less face it, that sh*t matters!
I kept reading over and over how psycholigically depressing it was to see strength go down when the exogenous hormone was removed. Therefore, I decided right off the bat that a routine change for pct just makes sense to avoid ever seeing the numbers dwindle.
Much appreciated bro. On the flip side, I sometimes get made fun of for overthinking :think: Ha HaWow, excellent point! Thanks for the well informed answer. Reps.
Thanks for the compliment. I've always liked logs with summaries so you don't have to read every silly post. I like to chit chat in my logs so let's save people the agony of my big mouthI'm a bit late but damn Celc, I forgot how fine your logs were :thumbsup: Gotta love the summary updates in the beginning.
Both are very "smooth" feeling substances compared to Halodrol. I had irritability and aggressive outbusrts with Halo.I agree I love summary posts. Since your over 3 weeks in, how does Havoc 'feel' compared to Phera? People always used to compare the 2 since they're somewhat close chemically.
Interesting. The only explanation that I have to offer is a theory that Dr.D relayed to me when I didn't respond to form in pct. It's well known that form blocks dht conversion and has prostate protective properties. This is fine when ON or when natty hormonal levels are all in check. However, during pct when natural test is suppressed to whatever degree, blocking dht is counter-productive. Is it possible that you hadn't fully recovered from a previous cycle?Well celc, I say it's a compliment when people accuse you of overthinking...much better than the opposite! :cheers:
It really is interesting to me how we all respond different to these compounds. After reading so much from you and BigT I first tried Nutra formestane and mixed it myself and then tried e-Form thinking maybe I screwed something up. For me lower estrogen = lowered libido and some lethargy if I dose high. I just auctioned my other eForm since it doesn't treat me as nice as it does you celc.
I see your point. So you're thinking the liver protection interfered with methylation absorption processes. I dosed my methyls at 730am and 4pm. I dosed my SamE at 9 or 930pm. Maybe you're thinking the supposed 4hr rule didn't help?I actually would not be surprised if SAM-e reduced the potency of Havoc in this cycle. I have long suspected that it has been doing the same to me. I plan on running an identical cycle to what I have previously run before, but without SAM-e. I'll let you know how it goes.
bite your tongue about the milk thistle. i have high liver values from years of excessive drinking, when i am taking milk thistle values go down. not talking bout during cycle or pct but just as a health supp. i have a lot of faith in milk thistle. samE is great but don't undervalue milk thistle.I see your point. So you're thinking the liver protection interfered with methylation absorption processes. I dosed my methyls at 730am and 4pm. I dosed my SamE at 9 or 930pm. Maybe you're thinking the supposed 4hr rule didn't help?
Do you think the SamE interfered with the potency of the nonmethyl sol? I'm not sure I've heard of any issues in that regard, but I'd be willing to listen if you had any ideas/theories.
Edit: since we're talking about liver protection, I suspect milk thistle and/or salymarin to be completely innefective in liver protection. But that's just my opinion.
That's interesting, I've read some great studies about milk thistle but they all typically state that it was ineffective for fighting liver issues related to alcohol abuse.bite your tongue about the milk thistle. i have high liver values from years of excessive drinking, when i am taking milk thistle values go down. not talking bout during cycle or pct but just as a health supp. i have a lot of faith in milk thistle. samE is great but don't undervalue milk thistle.
Is it possible that you hadn't fully recovered from a previous cycle?
ive been sober for 13 years so it may be that liver values are naturally high, but truth is i get tested for liver values 2xyear and they are consistently better when i have been taking milk thistle on a regular basis.That's interesting, I've read some great studies about milk thistle but they all typically state that it was ineffective for fighting liver issues related to alcohol abuse.
One thing about silymarin is price. Milk Thistle's pretty inexpensive but SAMe isn't at a dose of 400mg twice a day. I've never seen SAMe being sold with more than 30 400mg tabs (or 60 200mg tabs)
Ziquor, yes Halo was AWESOME! I was a newb on the scene running mediocre nha stacks when theBigT helped me immensely in choosing Halo :thumbsup:
BigT, that's some good feedback with bloodwork. Do you use milk thistle or a standardized salymarin? What brand do you use?
Ziquor, agreed. My opinion was based on the lack of evidence in the studies and the strong "methyl flu" symptoms that I got with phera and halo. The studies pointed me toward SamE, and yes it's expensive. I pick up a truckload when it goes on sale BOGO at the local RiteAide
NasD, hope all is well with the post op recovery. That sounds like a real bicth to have to deal with.
Day 26
Today was an off day. I usually don't post a specific update on off days but I'd like to report a mistake that I made last night.
I dosed my formestane/trione too late and a bit overzealously. I usually dose about 2ml 2x/day. But I think I got closer to 4 last night. I got an aggressive rush and palpitations that I would normally LOVE from this combo. But it severely interfered with sleep. I nailed my girl twice last night and still woke up horny in the middle of the night. I can't figure out why people don't run this combo alongside compounds that have libido killing reputations :think:
Finally, I look absolutely huge! I look just a tad soft but vascularity is noticable in the arms and I do have a bit of an "on steroids" phoney muscle fullness. ...SWEET!!! :head:
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