Gangsta Test

[Chemo]

As supersoldier posted, he is currently on cycle...but if he agrees then his PCT is covered

Chemo

 

[sifu]

It will be great to see the results with accurate blood tests. It doesn't get any better than that.

 

[NPursuit]

I am actually shocked and impressed by that.

I'm not. Pro gives out more free supps than anyone or any company I have ever seen.

 

[Sldge]

I was actually hoping to time his cycle to test the M4OHT theory, but I guess it realy depends one when he is done with the Super-D cycle.

 

[N4cer]

Where is M4OHT available anyway?

 

[supersoldier]

I'd rather give the M4OHT a shot, if and when it ever comes around. Sldge has been very good to me and all the bros of this and pretty much every other board. So I'd rather do testing for him than VPX, which I'm already not too fond of. Also I know "a guy" who might be releasing sterile 4OHT-decanoate solution, which I would love to test in this manner or any manner for that matter. So is this stuff oral, or "other"? Is it sterile or what? http://www.vpxsports.com/4HT_cypionate.html This says propyl-carbonate, and cypionate. Which is it? I'm not saying I won't do it, because I will, but I'm not coming off cycle for at least 2 months, and if Sldge gets me M4OHT or similar I'll be using that.

 

[sifu]

Sledge is a good bro, all of his products that I beta tested, I was very impressed.

 

[promatrix]

it is no problem, it is just too bad. I was really looking forward to the real life reseach here.....I will still offer 5 samples to anyone who wants one. Just e-mail me

Pro

 

[sifu]

I would still like to see it done as well.

 

[Cogar]

I bet that M 4-OHT is nothing like 4-OHT, in the same way that M 1-T is nothing like 1-T. IMO, looking at M 4-OHT would not tell us anything regarding the original topic.

 

[jweave23]

I bet that M 4-OHT is nothing like 4-OHT, in the same way that M 1-T is nothing like 1-T. IMO, looking at M 4-OHT would not tell us anything regarding the original topic.

I agree, methylating really does change the way the product works and it cannot be compared effectively to it's non-methylated hormone.

 

[Sldge]

I dont think it would be the same as 4 oht. Everyone has been interested in seeing if you could bridge with a low dose of M4OHT. I hope to have a very small amount in the next 2 weeks or so along with a couple other things I have up my sleeve.

Besides, lets pretend you could use 4 oht some how for pct, after the ban it will be worse then posessing nolva, so there would be no reason to use it for that purpose to begin with.

 

[jweave23]

Besides, lets pretend you could use 4 oht some how for pct, after the ban it will be worse then posessing nolva, so there would be no reason to use it for that purpose to begin with.

I have to agree here, great point. Much of this won't soon matter much anyway I guess

 

[supersoldier]

Okay say Sldge gets me M4OHT and I combine that with nolva when I come off. If LH recovers, great. We've got a winner. If not, then it would still be like I'm ON cycle, fully suppressed. So then I could switch to 4OHT-Deca with the nolva, and see how that goes. I'd definitely rather prove a product that Sldge is introducing (M4OHT) as a good bridge than a product that VPX pimps. Not that they won't start selling it 2 months later for $160 a bottle anyway . Which one would you guys rather see work anyway? You got a bunch of people that are reluctant to use methyls, and a bunch more that are afraid to dart. I'd like to see the injectable work seeing that if you just come off a 4-6 week methyl cycle you might not wanna bridge with 4 more weeks of another methyl, but I don't think a moderate dose of M4OHT would be that rough on the liver anyway, but that's just speculation. Food for thought.

 

[lifted]

Okay say Sldge gets me M4OHT and I combine that with nolva when I come off. If LH recovers, great. We've got a winner. If not, then it would still be like I'm ON cycle, fully suppressed. So then I could switch to 4OHT-Deca with the nolva, and see how that goes. I'd definitely rather prove a product that Sldge is introducing (M4OHT) as a good bridge than a product that VPX pimps. Not that they won't start selling it 2 months later for $160 a bottle anyway . Which one would you guys rather see work anyway? You got a bunch of people that are reluctant to use methyls, and a bunch more that are afraid to dart. I'd like to see the injectable work seeing that if you just come off a 4-6 week methyl cycle you might not wanna bridge with 4 more weeks of another methyl, but I don't think a moderate dose of M4OHT would be that rough on the liver anyway, but that's just speculation. Food for thought.

I would like to see VPX's product tested. He states that it can be done w/o any scientific proof. I wanna hold him to these statements....

Whatever you do though bro, good luck...

 

[N4cer]

Where have you been? You act like this is the first time you've heard these theories, and that Promatrix is the only one with these beliefs.

 

[lifted]

Where have you been? You act like this is the first time you've heard these theories, and that Promatrix is the only one with these beliefs.

Chill the fvck out dude. Am I being to harsh on your buddy? Quit being so egotistical. I called him out on it, he couldn't put forth any info. So now I wanna see what he bases his claims on, okay? Is that too much for you to understand bro?

Jesus age christ, I see who the followers on this board are now, back it up or shut it up......

 

[supersoldier]

So can I get a confirmation on whether or not the VPX 4OHT is sterile or not?

 

[Sldge]

well i know mine is, so we can run the Big D for another week or so, try the m4oht bridge see if that works or not and then try the 4oht deca. personally i think the m4oht is a better idea then trying to find a use for 4oht as a "nolva" type product but that is me.

 

[supersoldier]

well i know mine is, so we can run the Big D for another week or so, try the m4oht bridge see if that works or not and then try the 4oht deca. personally i think the m4oht is a better idea then trying to find a use for 4oht as a "nolva" type product but that is me.

There you have it fellas. Testing will be done by myself and Sldge starting in about 2 weeks, as this has been a long time in the making. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11684&highlight=bridge Just keep in mind that this isn't being done just because of what a VPX rep posted on another board.

 

[N4cer]

So can I get a confirmation on whether or not the VPX 4OHT is sterile or not?

For the record - YES, it's sterile. As are all the VPX "Cypionate" line products:
1-Test Cyp
4-Test Cyp
4-OH Deca
4-HT Cyp
and the new baby I just had delivered this week:
STERILE Gangsta

I really like running the 4-HT Cyp on-cycle, for sure. Really reduces my estrogen FOR ME. How can I tell? No more puffies! LOL!

 

[promatrix]

I would like to see VPX's product tested. He states that it can be done w/o any scientific proof. I wanna hold him to these statements....

Whatever you do though bro, good luck...

With all due respect Mr. Jergo. Please stop quoting statements not said by me. Again, I have done nothing but simply say that 4-OH has a place within a protocol and PCT.
I am a chemist/researcher. Of course I am backed by science.

When it comes to AAS/PH's, there are many virables to take within account when using such powerful compounds.Within all the layers of protocols (cycles) we must deal with things such as AR receptors,IGF-1,estrogen, cortisol....ect.

Every action has an reaction, So when using any altering compound, one must be smart. this is chemistry.

I never stated to use 4-OH by itself, thus is a false statment.

I simply said that research and studies indicate no supression of HPTA and it is a compound that can be used wisely within any PCT protocol.
It is an androgen and it is still a bridge...yes, but it also has an advantage within smart protocols. All you had to do was ask me and I would have SHOWN you how I use it withn a smart protcol or I would have given some insight into what the Pro athletes use/compound with today.
But since you know more then I, I am sure you own an most excellent physique and win many bodybuilding shows lad...congrats.

As for the 20 people who asked for some samples from VPX (response was overwhelming) please enjoy the products.

I also called the company (VPX) and they will send you some MRP's and some other stuff too.

BTW- I do have "other" sport supplement compaines who I have ties with too. So I am not just "Mr.VPX", but I do like the name now...

warm regards
Pro

 

[supersoldier]

What's an effective dose as part of a PCT regimen?

With all due respect Mr. Jergo. Please stop quoting statements not said by me. Again, I have done nothing but simply say that 4-OH has a place within a protocol and PCT.
I am a chemist/researcher. Of course I am backed by science.

When it comes to AAS/PH's, there are many virables to take within account when using such powerful compounds.Within all the layers of protocols (cycles) we must deal with things such as AR receptors,IGF-1,estrogen, cortisol....ect.

Every action has an reaction, So when using any altering compound, one must be smart. this is chemistry.

I never stated to use 4-OH by itself, thus is a false statment.

I simply said that research and studies indicate no supression of HPTA and it is a compound that can be used wisely within any PCT protocol.
It is an androgen and it is still a bridge...yes, but it also has an advantage within smart protocols. All you had to do was ask me and I would have SHOWN you how I use it withn a smart protcol or I would have given some insight into what the Pro athletes use/compound with today.
But since you know more then I, I am sure you own an most excellent physique and win many bodybuilding shows lad...congrats.

As for the 20 people who asked for some samples from VPX (response was overwhelming) please enjoy the products.

I also called the company (VPX) and they will send you some MRP's and some other stuff too.

BTW- I do have "other" sport supplement compaines who I have ties with too. So I am not just "Mr.VPX", but I do like the name now...

warm regards
Pro

 

[Manu20]

Promatrix I would be interested to see how you use it for pct and what you recommend.

 

[lifted]

With all due respect Mr. Jergo. Please stop quoting statements not said by me. Again, I have done nothing but simply say that 4-OH has a place within a protocol and PCT.
I am a chemist/researcher. Of course I am backed by science.

When it comes to AAS/PH's, there are many virables to take within account when using such powerful compounds.Within all the layers of protocols (cycles) we must deal with things such as AR receptors,IGF-1,estrogen, cortisol....ect.

Every action has an reaction, So when using any altering compound, one must be smart. this is chemistry.

I never stated to use 4-OH by itself, thus is a false statment.

I simply said that research and studies indicate no supression of HPTA and it is a compound that can be used wisely within any PCT protocol.
It is an androgen and it is still a bridge...yes, but it also has an advantage within smart protocols. All you had to do was ask me and I would have SHOWN you how I use it withn a smart protcol or I would have given some insight into what the Pro athletes use/compound with today.
But since you know more then I, I am sure you own an most excellent physique and win many bodybuilding shows lad...congrats.

As for the 20 people who asked for some samples from VPX (response was overwhelming) please enjoy the products.

I also called the company (VPX) and they will send you some MRP's and some other stuff too.

BTW- I do have "other" sport supplement compaines who I have ties with too. So I am not just "Mr.VPX", but I do like the name now...

warm regards
Pro

Yeah okay, all I said was prove it bro. Nothing else. I did come off like an asshole when I first posted regarding your name. If you read the whole thread in it's entirety, you will see that I acknowledged a few times that I was wrong for doing so.

All I wanna see is some hard evidence, thats it. I have never seen any studies showing beyond a reasonable doubt that it does indeed do what you and others claim it to be useful to do. I have said this numerous times. And its obvious that others think the same in regards to the studies or there wouldn't be a proposed testing of the protocol.

Do you get it yet??? I sure hope so, this is like pulling teeth. I still sound a little harsh with you, but that is only because you still have failed to back your claims. Yet you continue to blather on about the protocol. All I'm asking is for you to show something, anything. This is what this board is based on; proving your claims. All the free samples in the world won't change that holmes.

It's not so much personal anymore, eventhough you still act paranoid as all hell. I wanna see something that makes the 5 pages of this thread actually worth reading....

The Mr. VPX title is yours if you like, I called you that, because you continued to call me "young lad". :shoot:

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I simply said that research and studies indicate no supression of HPTA and it is a compound that can be used wisely within any PCT protocol.
It is an androgen and it is still a bridge...yes, but it also has an advantage within smart protocols.

I have not seen one study indicating this. In fact it has been shown to have a high binding affinity (only 25% less the miberlone) so I don't see where this non suppression comes from. It most certainly will suppress with the RBA it has.

If you have evidence that disputes this, please post it as it would benefit us all during PCT. I for one would love to have something like this not cause suppression but the literature is quite clear on its RBA and androgenic activity.

 

[Sldge]

"But since you know more then I, I am sure you own an most excellent physique and win many bodybuilding shows lad...congrats"

Being smarter or not does not mean that anyone would have a better physique over anyone else.
I think I am smart and I have never won a single show, not that I have ever competed but I think physiques should be judged against physiques. Being smart or not has nothing to do with it.

 

[eagle kamiakin]

great debate, a real inspiration of thought towards personal usage on and off cycle. I look forward to learning more here, so keep it up!

 

[bioman]

So I check into this thread 5 pages later and still no proof of the disputed claims.

Pro, you're not the only scientist here and your condescension towards members who are asking fair questions is not winning you any credibility. Either prove to us that 4ht is non-suppressive, demonstrate this mystery protocol or retract the claims.

 

[bigswole30]

The thing with this type of debate is that there is too many variables. Age, weight, AAS experience etc.....the list could go on and on.......There is not going to be one right answer. One person may be able to incorporate OHT into PCT while others may not. M-1-T **** some people down while others feel like Peter North on it.

 

[lifted]

The thing with this type of debate is that there is too many variables. Age, weight, AAS experience etc.....the list could go on and on.......There is not going to be one right answer. One person may be able to incorporate OHT into PCT while others may not. M-1-T **** some people down while others feel like Peter North on it.

I hear what you're saying big, but at the least, we just wanna see some studies proving that it has no ill-effect on the HPTA like he and others claim....

 

[supersoldier]

The thing with this type of debate is that there is too many variables. Age, weight, AAS experience etc.....the list could go on and on.......There is not going to be one right answer. One person may be able to incorporate OHT into PCT while others may not. M-1-T **** some people down while others feel like Peter North on it.

If this is true then advice that advocates 4OHT as part of PCT should not be handed out to everyone.

 

[bigswole30]

If this is true then advice that advocates 4OHT as part of PCT should not be handed out to everyone.

You kind of missed my point. Nolva, HCG, and Clomid may all work in the opposite direction for some people. There is not a right answer to this thread. All Pro said was that OHT can be incoporated in a PCT and I have done it with great results. Some people want things set in stone and that will never be in the world of anabolics/chemistry.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

. M-1-T **** some people down while others feel like Peter North on it.

But it shuts down everyone (unless HCG is used).

Its not the feeling that we are debating, its the physiological effects of androgens and it is quite clear in the literature how the body reacts.

 

[supersoldier]

Nolva, HCG, and Clomid may all work in the opposite direction for some people.

Somebody please show me a study that shows this.

 

[bigswole30]

But it shuts down everyone (unless HCG is used).

Its not the feeling that we are debating, its the physiological effects of androgens and it is quite clear in the literature how the body reacts.

I used a bad example with that comment. Yes, it does supress everyone, but to a certain extent. It varies from person to person. This thread has turned out to be about OHT and it's affect on HPTA. Pro as well as myself think it can be used as a means of PCT while others debate it. The only info I have is from personal use and the blood work done where I work. Pro has alot more inside info than I do. I am not privy to that aspect of it, but I know for the most part what the reusults say.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

You kind of missed my point. Nolva, HCG, and Clomid may all work in the opposite direction for some people. There is not a right answer to this thread. All Pro said was that OHT can be incoporated in a PCT and I have done it with great results. Some people want things set in stone and that will never be in the world of anabolics/chemistry.

You are completly wrong. They work the same in everyone. Its just the degree of effect that is different. Please do not attempt to spin this in your favor and give me the "it works differentlt in other people" because then I will close the thread. That it the most outrageous excuse I've ever heard. All Pro said is that it does not effect the HTPA in a negative way and we want proof. Its simple as that. It goes against every physiological rule and I can tell you for a fact every endocrinologist in the world would laugh at me if I told him/her that statement. I don't think you understand just how outrageous the claim is. Its very simple, stop defending him because you are associated with him and the company. If he's a good guy, fine, I don't doubt that at all. Give us proof or do not post. He made the claim, lets see the proof. Until then, I don't want to see another attempt to spin this in your favor. I'm tired of people dodging the issue.

 

[bigswole30]

Somebody please show me a study that shows this.

It is human nature dude! It does not take a study for everything. People respond to things diffently to everything.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I used a bad example with that comment. Yes, it does supress everyone, but to a certain extent. It varies from person to person. This thread has turned out to be about OHT and it's affect on HPTA. Pro as well as myself think it can be used as a means of PCT while others debate it. The only info I have is from personal use and the blood work done where I work. Pro has alot more inside info than I do. I am not privy to that aspect of it, but I know for the most part what the reusults say.

Then post the bloodwork. And don't give me the "its against company policy". If you make the claim, back it up with proof. If not, your case holds no water at all and your credibility with those who you target in this industry will suffer for it. Please do not continue unless you have proof. I will not go aorund in circles and create 5 new pages of "specualtion". If not, it will be closed.

 

[supersoldier]

What kind of dose are Bigswole and Promatrix saying that should (or can) be run during PCT while not causing farther suppression and allowing HPTA recovery? I'll come off cycle and test the theory out myself in about 2 weeks.

 

[bigswole30]

You are completly wrong. They work the same in everyone. Its just the degree of effect that is different. Please do not attempt to spin this in your favor and give me the "it works differentlt in other people" because then I will close the thread. That it the most outrageous excuse I've ever heard. All Pro said is that it does not effect the HTPA in a negative way and we want proof. Its simple as that. It goes against every physiological rule and I can tell you for a fact every endocrinologist in the world would laugh at me if I told him/her that statement. I don't think you understand just how outrageous the claim is. Its very simple, stop defending him because you are associated with him and the company. If he's a good guy, fine, I don't doubt that at all. Give us proof or do not post. He made the claim, lets see the proof. Until then, I don't want to see another attempt to spin this in your favor. I'm tired of people dodging the issue.

Just ban me then or close the thread!!!!!! You guy's will think you are right despite anything or anyone who dispute you. You and I both know there are too many variables to say that there is one right answer.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

It is human nature dude! It does not take a study for everything. People respond to things diffently to everything.

That reply shows a complete lack of understanding about the pharmacological effects of drugs. It is an excuse. If you want to be taken more serisouly, I suggest you rethink your statements. If you don't understand thi, admit it and leave it those who do. If you continue to debate in this fashion you will be asked not to continue.

 

[bigswole30]

Then post the bloodwork. And don't give me the "its against company policy". If you make the claim, back it up with proof. If not, your case holds no water at all and your credibility with those who you target in this industry will suffer for it. Please do not continue unless you have proof. I will not go aorund in circles and create 5 new pages of "specualtion". If not, it will be closed.

As I said above..just ban me or close the thread. There are some things that I can't post. Maybe Pro can as he is a little higher up then I am. Take it as a cop out if you want, but AM does not pay my bills.....VPX does.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Just ban me then or close the thread!!!!!! You guy's will think you are right despite anything or anyone who dispute you. You and I both know there are too many variables to say that there is one right answer.

What the **** don't you get? WE WANT PROOF! WE DON"T BELIEVE YOU UNLESS YOU SHOW US OTHERWISE! YOU ARE MAKING CLAIMS THAT GO AGAINST EVERY PHYSIOLOGICAL RULE PERTANING TO ANDROGENS! IT IS APPARENT YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE YOU CONTINUE TO DANCE AROUND THE ISSUE AND NEVER ANSWER ANYTHING!

 

[Dwight Schrute]

As I said above..just ban me or close the thread. There are some things that I can't post. Maybe Pro can as he is a little higher up then I am. Take it as a cop out if you want, but AM does not pay my bills.....VPX does.

Then don't make you claims at AM and dont' defend Pro's postiion if you can;t back it up. It is clear that the dollar is what your concerned about, not the truth. It most certainly is an excuse. You should have just kept quiet and let pro do the talking then. I will not open this thread unless he's contacts me with some sort of bloodwork and/or study.

Once again you stuck you head in a debate in which you could not answer the questions being asked. You just attmepted to put your positive spin on Pro and VPX. It gets old and doesn't reflect well on your company, once again.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well since its calmed down, I will reopen this for conitued discussion. KEEP TO THE TOPIC AT HAND! THAT MEANS KEEP IT SCIENTIFIC!





Here are a couple studies that are significant in this discussion:


Pharmacokinetics of 4-hydroxyandrostenedione in man after intramuscular injection of different formulations and the effect of this drug on plasma aromatizable androgens and 17beta-estradiol concentrations.

Danza G, Muratori M, Guarna A, Occhiato EG, Sadri R, Serio M.

Clinical Physiopathology Department, University of Firenze, Italy.

Pharmacokinetics of 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OHA), a potent aromatase inhibitor under investigation for treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer, were studied using two formulations with different particle sizes of 4.2 and 8.0 microm, respectively. A single 250 mg dose of 4-OHA of each of the two formulations was administered in two different periods to six healthy male volunteers and blood samples were collected for up to 14 days. 4-OHA plasma levels were determined using the isotope dilution mass spectrometry method. Comparison of the pharmacokinetic profiles of the two formulations did not show any statistically significant difference, even though the 4.2 microm particle size gave apparently higher levels at 24 h. Using this formulation, the effects of 4-OHA on the plasma levels of aromatizable androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) and 17beta-estradiol were studied. An isotope dilution mass spectrometry method was developed for the simultaneous quantitative determination of these steroids in human plasma. The analysis of plasma samples showed a significant reduction of plasma estradiol concentrations (50%) which coincided with the maximum concentration peak of the inhibitor, whereas no significant changes in androgen levels were observed.


This specifically states that the androgen levels measure were testosterone and androstenedione and this was in normal men, not hypogonald which you would be post cycle. This study was also injectable form which a huge differenfce in bioavailability. The bioavailability of oral OHT is very bad.


Aromatase inhibition: 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OHA, CGP 32349) in advanced prostatic cancer.

Davies JH, Dowsett M, Jacobs S, Coombes RC, Hedley A, Shearer RJ.

Department of Urology, St Georges Hospital, Tooting, London, UK.

We report the use of the steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OHA, CGP 32349), in the management of patients with advanced, hormone resistant, prostatic cancer. Eighteen of 25 patients (72%) showed a subjective response, mainly in the form of pain relief and increased performance. There were no objective improvements. A tumour flare occurred in 17/25 (68%). Detailed endocrine studies were performed during treatment. These showed that suppression of serum oestradiol levels occurred in 19/25 (76%) of patients during treatment with 4-OHA. Serum levels of androstenedione increased in 9/14 patients (64%). Concentration of serum testosterone and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone were elevated in 3/14 (21%) and 2/11 (18%) patients respectively. There appeared to be no correlation between response or tumour flare and changes in steroid levels during treatment with 4-OHA. The mechanism of action of 4-OHA in palliating patients with advanced prostatic cancer remains obscure. 4-OHA or its metabolites may be acting on metastatic bone metabolism via effects on oestrogen related osteoclastic and osteoblastic activity. Further investigation of the effects of aromatase inhibitors on prostatic biology, and bone metabolism in patients with metastatic prostate cancer, would appear worthwhile.

To be fair this one showed an increase in testosterone but in only 21% of thepatients but there was no correlation between treatment and the rise.


4-hydroxyandrostenedione--further clinical and extended endocrine observations.

Pickles T, Perry L, Murray P, Plowman P.

Department of Radiotherapy, St Bartholomew's Hospital, London, UK.

4-Hydroxyandrostenedione (4-OHA) was administered (250 mg intramuscularly 2-weekly) in a phase 2 clinical trial to 20 postmenopausal patients with advanced breast cancer, who had failed other endocrine therapy. Seven out of 18 assessable patients (39%) responded with minimal toxicity. Endocrine studies demonstrated that the drug produced significant initial falls in oestradiol and oestrone levels, but that these levels rose toward pretreatment levels as the study progressed. Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels gradually fell during the study suggesting that the drug has a minor degree of androgenic activity albeit of no clinical significance. There was a transient reduction of adrenal steroid levels, which remained however within the normal range. There were no symptoms of adrenal insufficiency.

This showed a decrease in oestrogen levels but the further the treatment went on, the more estrogen began to rise until 3 weeks in the treatment when they were back at pre treatment levels. It didn't have androgenic activity in these woman but that is NOT the same in a eugonadal men given that it would be much more of a dose than the amount that would be present here (since its only the metabolite). The amount in this study is extremely small.


I also remembering reading that a reason for the increase in testosterone could be that it is a substate for the 17-beta HSD enzyme and the slight increase in testosterone could be the result, not because of LH stimulation.

 

[lifted]

Yet another reason not to use it for PCT (or rather a PCT protocol). After use of anti-e's one's estrogen levels will jump up considerably and sometimes causing the onset of gyno even after PCT is completed.

Thats kinda like using a-dex in conjunction with your SERM during PCT is it not?

So there we have two reasons not to use it. Supression of HPTA and high E levels when coming off it...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well those suggest that it can happen but its only one study and not conclusive since it is in women. Its not even that estrogen levels rise but that the effect of the drug does not last very long and that would be the same for women or men.

 

[supersoldier]

I sent Promatrix a PM asking him what dose he says will not cause further suppression and allows for HPTA recovery for use during PCT. That was 3 days ago, and he has yet to respond. I'll do the testing in a few weeks.

 

[sifu]

He hasn't returned my PM either.