Gangsta Test

[db682]

Not sure if this is just a coincidence or what but while researching on 4-oht I ended up on Promatrix Biotechnologies website. They carry a product, testobol, which is 4-oht and they make the exact same claims that this Promatrix character is claiming. I just thought it weird since the earlier post from Jerg points to where Promatrix claims to be a chemist / product developer for a supplement company and then I checked his profile where he claims to be a ceo for VPX retail. I just curious as to why someone whos a chemist / product developer for one company can or would run another companies store.

But, Since I am a chemist/product deveolpmenter for a sports supplement company, I tend to believe Andro is a great product.

ce4o of vpx retail

Heres some of the crap on the promatrix site. Pretty much the same **** bobo said but in a fashion where your average bodybuilder would be clueless while reading and probably think its the ****.

CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY

General
The chemical term 4-HydroxyTestosterone THP Ether refers to the isomer: 4,17beta-dihydroxy-4-androstene-3-one tetrahydropyranyl ether. 4-HydroxyTestosterone THP Ether (4-OHT Ether) is the THP Ether derivative of 4-HydroxyTestosterone, which is a metabolite or derivative of the naturally occurring precursor hormone 4-Hydroxy-4-Androstenedione. 1 This compound concerns the isomer form of 4,17beta-dihydroxy-4-androstene-3-one tetrahydropyranyl ether.

4-HydroxyTestosterone THP Ether is an anabolic / androgenic compound that acts similar to real Testosterone. It does this by directly binding to the androgen receptor. 4-HydroxyTestosterone cannot directly convert to estrogen due its chemical configuration.

Efficacy Studies

The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-HydroxyAndrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4-OHA) and its metabolites, 4-HydroxyTestosterone (4-OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4-OHA and 4-OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4-OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4-OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4-OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4-OHA.3

References:

Poon GK, et al. Investigation of conjugated metabolites of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione in patient urine by liquid chromatography-atmospheric pressure ionization mass spectrometry. Drug Metab Dispos. 1992 Nov-Dec;20(6):941-7.

Davies JH et al. Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor. J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7.

Same **** different wrapper!!!


another board:

4-Hydroxytestosterone
By David Tolson

4-Hydroxytestosterone (4-OHT, 4,17beta-dihydroxy-4-androstene-3-one) is a legal steroidal compound that is relatively new to the market. Unlike prohormones, 4-OHT does not require enzymatic conversion to have an anabolic effect. It was first patented by G.D. Searle & Co. in 1955, but it did not reach the commercial market, and has recently become available as a dietary supplement. Chemically, 4-OHT is testosterone with a hydroxy group at the four position, making it most similar to the steroid clostebol, which has a chloro group at the four position. These two compounds are also very similar in effect.

4-OHT has moderate anabolic, mild androgenic, and anti-estrogenic properties. All in all, it can be expected to be associated with very few side effects, but this also comes at the expense of reduced anabolic activity. In the levator ani assay, 4-OHT is .65 times as anabolic and .25 times as androgenic as testosterone propionate. The reason that this compound has such low androgenic activity is that the modification at the 4 position prevents DHT conversion. In vitro, 4-OHT is actually a weak inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase. This weak androgenic effect is ideal for those who want to avoid or minimize side effects such as baldness, acne, and BPH. 4-OHT also has the benefit of having anti-estrogenic effects, which will eliminate chances of estrogen levels increasing, which can lead to side effects such as extra water retention and gyno. 4-OHT itself is a weak inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen, and a metabolite, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane), is a potent aromatase inhibitor. It should be emphasized that both androgenic and estrogenic effects can be beneficial for bodybuilders, it is simply a matter of how much side effects one wishes to tolerate.

Like most steroids, 4-OHT has low oral bioavailability and should be taken through a different route. Another reason why oral administration is not ideal is that, like clostebol, 4-OHT has a very short half-life. Those who inject usually use it every day or every other day totalling 300-700 mg weekly, stacked with other substances. Doses for transdermal administration should be in the range of 150-300 mg daily, and this is once again assuming one is stacking it with other steroids or prohormones. Using it as a standalone, optimal doses are probably considerably higher. 4-OHT has been most commonly stacked with 4-AD and 1-testosterone, although there are theoretical reasons why it may be beneficial to stack it with many substances – it will generally reduce estrogenic side effects, while adding anabolism without significantly contributing to androgenic side effects.

Now Im really geting confused because I keep finding a 4-oht that is an antiestrogen but it is referring to 4-hydroxy tamoxifen.

Checkout the new Antiestrogen article I posted in the Articles section.

db

 

[Dwight Schrute]

David's article is fine as he doesn't really mention it for PCT, just its anti-estrogenic properties. That doesn't mean it doesn't effect the HPTA. DHT has anti-estrogenic effects but we know what happens there.

Its just funny how people don't mention its binding affinity or they just overlook it.

"However, 4-OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone"

Miberlone = 100 RBA

 

[jminis]

1. Sure you could use it that way but why? I can find a number of better compounds to use with HCG than Hydroxytest. But there is nothing run with that if thats what you want to do. IT does have a very high RBA so you might want to consider that to. Its not exactly a weak substance.

2. He stresses on or off and is against bridges but suggests Hydroxytest for PCT? Umm, thats what he's suggesting. Use an andorgen to maintain gains during PCT. Thats a bridge. Of course we recommend time on equals time off but we also don't guarantee recovery and usually have something else to add depending on the substance used. You know this so if your trying to make a comparison of our recommendaitons to this one, I suggest you rethink that a little. He is saying this androgen is helping recovery yet provides no proof. So it doesn't matter what WE say, HE is the one making the statement, not us.

3. I specifally said you weren't following the piper and it was a generalization. I said its happened all to often on most anabolic boards. How many people come here and ask about the Dbol bridge? That is a perfect example. This is just another spin off of the same type of thought. Just because it might suppress estrogen mean things change? I think not. I mean these people are still using the reasoning of short half-lives as proof!!

4. Never said he would lie, just that he could misinterpret bloodwork if its not followed up properly. This isn't my idea, this is carried out in the medical community as standard practice. Check any study on recovery and you will see how long they test and sometimes how long it takes to recover. 99% of the studies using Clomid and Nolva show increased Test and increased LH when they are using the drug, but what happens when the drug is discontinued? Some drop to back to subnormal levels and some don't. This is what I said earlier. There is a difference between drug induced recovery and TRUE recovery. If he is so sure I'm sure he would post SOME bloodwork of somebody! If he does labwork frequently this is something he easily could experiement with. I think the majority of these people who recommend these types of protocls jump the gun bigtime. Hell, ask SWALE, he'll tell you the same thing. It doesn't matter who he is, if his reasoning and proof are lacking, then he's just asking people to be guinea pigs (which isn't smart IMO). Bill Roberts is the one who popularized the Dbol bridge and what do we know about that now? A name doesn't mean they are right or wrong. Its just a name.

Its realy simple, use HCG during your cycle and all these bridges or whatever you want to call it are not necessary. Even if you don't, I rather use IGF-1 or Slin or GH. Two of them are easily obtainable for most people and will definetly not effect the HTPA. In fact in some cases it will help in many ways.

And there is always something to gain from it, especially if your the only one who recommends it and people follow blindly (once again, not you. You discuss it and see my reasoning).

Bobo I agree with your points, and I'm sorry if I took some the things the wrong way but it's hard to convey a message on a board without things getting misinterpreted. Also I completely agree that HCG during the cycle will help avoid a lot of the problems and is the route I take on cycles. Also I think recommending 4oht for PCT is not a great idea if complete recovery is your main goal.

Also Jergo let's not call someone a dumbass if we don't agree with what they say. You don't who someone might be behind these screen names. State your opinion one way or the other but bashing someone is not the way to do it. Over and out off to the gym.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo I agree with your points, and I'm sorry if I took some the things the wrong way but it's hard to convey a message on a board without things getting misinterpreted. Also I completely agree that HCG during the cycle will help avoid a lot of the problems and is the route I take on cycles. Also I think recommending 4oht for PCT is not a great idea if complete recovery is your main goal.

.

Agreed. I understand where your coming from. You know I'm not going to put down a fellow Igles fan!

 

[Cogar]

This is a great thread. Although I do not consider myself an expert (or even "talented amateur") on this subject, Bobo and others have made some points that are strong enough that I feel like chiming in. Even before reading this thread, it made sense to use 4-OHT as part of a stack during a cycle, but not for PCT. Even though it is an anti-e, I thought it would be perfectly clear to even the average bodybuilder that as an anabolic it will therefore continue to suppress natural test. Using it in conjunction with nolva would not change this. Based on what I have read, I have to wonder how much of using 4-OHT in PCT is science and how much is product pimping. (Thank you for the investigative work, db682.) Promatrix may be a good bro, he may mean well, and he may have the respect of many people but that does not mean he is always correct.

 

[jminis]

Agreed. I understand where your coming from. You know I'm not going to put down a fellow Igles fan!

LOL it may seem like a heated debate to others but you and I both know this is as calm as it gets for a philly fan How bout T.O baby. We have hope yet.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

LOL it may seem like a heated debate to others but you and I both know this is as calm as it gets for a philly fan How bout T.O baby. We have hope yet.

Yeah this is just idle chat. We haven't even started throwing things yet

T.O, Kearse! Things look pretty good.

 

[lifted]

LOL it may seem like a heated debate to others but you and I both know this is as calm as it gets for a philly fan How bout T.O baby. We have hope yet.

Oh god, I won't even touch that subject, or I might get my teeth knocked out.... :shoot:

jminis, I hear what you're saying bro about the dumba$$ comments, but I don't like it when people build up a trust w/ others and then spread false facts like he did. It's been pretty much proven that it isn't a good idea, so why don't you see my original point that I was trying to make? I think it was justifiable what I said, you have a different opinion, deal w/ it brother and try not to take it so personal...

 

[Iron Warrior]

How bout T.O baby. We have hope yet.

Be careful what you wish for , take it from a disgruntled 49ers fan. I know all of it wasn't his fault, but he needs to be reminded of the team concept way too many times. He also blames his QB's when he doesn't get 100 yards a game, even if the team is winning.

Anyway, good luck with T.O. and I know you guys will keep him in check with those urine bombs, death threats etc. LOL.

 

[jminis]

Be careful what you wish for , take it from a disgruntled 49ers fan. I know all of it wasn't his fault, but he needs to be reminded of the team concept way too many times. He also blames his QB's when he doesn't get 100 yards a game, even if the team is winning.

Anyway, good luck with T.O. and I know you guys will keep him in check with those urine bombs, death threats etc. LOL.

LOL He and McNabb are good bro's so I don't think there will be a problem. T.O. has a big mouth but the fans have an even bigger one. Hopefully we're a match made in heaven. T.O. wants philly so he got it, I hope he produces and leads us to the big dance. What a party it would be. Watch the news the two studs you see stumbling down the street piss drunk with our faces painted green will be Bobo and I.

 

[jminis]

Oh god, I won't even touch that subject, or I might get my teeth knocked out.... :shoot:

jminis, I hear what you're saying bro about the dumba$$ comments, but I don't like it when people build up a trust w/ others and then spread false facts like he did. It's been pretty much proven that it isn't a good idea, so why don't you see my original point that I was trying to make? I think it was justifiable what I said, you have a different opinion, deal w/ it brother and try not to take it so personal...

I agree with what you said bro read my posts. I mainly didn't like the dumbass comment and you agree it wasn't a good idea. The only problem I had with your opinion was the one about Promatrix, that's it.

 

[Sir Foxx]

LOL He and McNabb are good bro's so I don't think there will be a problem. T.O. has a big mouth but the fans have an even bigger one. Hopefully we're a match made in heaven. T.O. wants philly so he got it, I hope he produces and leads us to the big dance. What a party it would be. Watch the news the two studs you see stumbling down the street piss drunk with our faces painted green will be Bobo and I.

Silly kids, even if you somehow make it past the NFC championship game(unlikely), TO is going to be shutdown by Champ Bailey and then when he starts whining, John Lynch is going to pop him in the mouth.

Go BRONCOS

 

[jweave23]

fucking Philly fans......The progression is usually:
1. random discussion about Eagles (time varies)
2. offensive statement made (total time about 5-10 seconds)
3. look of confusion, bewilderment, quickly turning into the worst possible comment one human could make to another (total time = 2 seconds)
4. severe beating about the head, also back and ribs if perp falls (total time = 5-10 minutes)

 

[jminis]

Silly kids, even if you somehow make it past the NFC championship game(unlikely), TO is going to be shutdown by Champ Bailey and then when he starts whining, John Lynch is going to pop him in the mouth.

Go BRONCOS

ChUmp Bailey will do no such thing. And I thought the Broncos got moved to arena football?

 

[jminis]

fucking Philly fans......The progression is usually:
1. random discussion about Eagles (time varies)
2. offensive statement made (total time about 5-10 seconds)
3. look of confusion, bewilderment, quickly turning into the worst possible comment one human could make to another (total time = 2 seconds)
4. severe beating about the head, also back and ribs if perp falls (total time = 5-10 minutes)

You forgot the infamous kidney shot But you got the general idea
Even though it's April I'm gonna say this:
E...A....G....L.....E.....S... EAGLES!!!!!!!

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Silly kids, even if you somehow make it past the NFC championship game(unlikely), TO is going to be shutdown by Champ Bailey and then when he starts whining, John Lynch is going to pop him in the mouth.

Go BRONCOS

Champ Bailey? This is the same guy who let James Thrash have a career day in one of the MANY time the Eagles smoked the Redskins. Champ? More like Overated Bailey. I would love to see his small little frame against TO. Owens would have a field day.

John Lynch? Too old, too slow. He was exposed last year for his age and is not the same player he was. Plus he's ONLY good in a cover 2 scheme.

 

[Iron Warrior]

Silly kids, even if you somehow make it past the NFC championship game(unlikely), TO is going to be shutdown by Champ Bailey and then when he starts whining, John Lynch is going to pop him in the mouth.

Go BRONCOS

John Lynch is done bro. I got to see it firsthand. He was getting beat by freakin Jed Weaver in the 49ers-Bucs game last year. All Lynch can do is tackle, but that's what you have linebackers for. He won't cover much ground for you though.

Champ Bailey ain't bad but he's not worth Clinton Portis. Bailey ain't physical enough to hang with T.O. I can picture T.O. dragging his skinny ass 10 yards into the end zone if they ever meet again. T.O. has owned him the two times they played against each, they even switched him up against Tai Streets after halftime in one of those games.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Champ Bailey? This is the same guy who let James Thrash have a career day in one of the MANY time the Eagles smoked the Redskins. Champ? More like Overated Bailey. I would love to see his small little frame against TO. Owens would have a field day.

John Lynch? Too old, too slow. He was exposed last year for his age and is not the same player he was. Plus he's ONLY good in a cover 2 scheme.

Anyone who lets James TRASH smoke them should be banned from the game! Too bad we don't have good old Trash around for me to make fun of anymore. :shoot:

I'm certainly looking forward to TO, and Kearse as well. I'm a little worried about Kearse as he's been so damn injury-prone recently.

I said it as soon as I heard it, we never should have even considered letting Hugh Douglas go.

 

[witchdawg7]

Anyone who lets James TRASH smoke them should be banned from the game! Too bad we don't have good old Trash around for me to make fun of anymore. :shoot:

I'm certainly looking forward to TO, and Kearse as well. I'm a little worried about Kearse as he's been so damn injury-prone recently.

I said it as soon as I heard it, we never should have even considered letting Hugh Douglas go.

Baily is a basket case. If he could cover recievers with the same intensity that he lashes out at his coaching staff and team mates he would end up in the hall of fame.
The TO to McNabb connection will make it worth watching a Beagles game.
Kearse should change his name to Freakishly Injury Prone.
That being said I live in the good old Pacific NW and will have to suffer through another season of watching the Seachickens. Hopefully Mike Homegrown can live up to his billing and at least get us into the NFC championship game.

 

[Iron Warrior]

Hopefully Mike Homegrown can live up to his billing and at least get us into the NFC championship game.

They'll be a wild-card and get knocked out in the first round again. Their defense needs some one like a Ray Lewis, Ty Law, or Jason Taylor. They will get in cause they can count on beating the 49ers & Cardinals twice each.

 

[N4cer]

Screw this... back to the topic...

Do you think TO is taking too much Gangsta Test or what?

 

[witchdawg7]

Their defense needs some one like a Ray Lewis, Ty Law, or Jason Taylor.

I couldn't agree with you more. They need a defensive player that has that special aura around them, one that can change the course of a game just by stepping on the field. Marcus Trufaunt is the real deal. Give him a couple more years and no quarterback will be throwing at him. I hate to admit that because he is a Cougar and am a big time Husky fan.

 

[supersoldier]

Hate to rejack my thread but check this out http://www.1fast400.com/product_reviews_info.php?reviews_id=874
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, wait... let me catch my breath... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[fatty]

that has to be one of the best reviews I have read....LOL

 

[supersoldier]

As much as I like 1fast400 as a whole, I don't know why Mike allows **** like this to be posted on his site. In fact it bothers me that he even sells VPX.

 

[supersoldier]

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=1022
Like Mad Dog 20/20. Might taste like **** but just drink enough until you're all F*$#'d up.

 

[1Fast400]

I deleted it. I just noticed it this morning. Sadly there stuff sells, not huge, but it does move.

 

[lifted]

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=1022
Like Mad Dog 20/20. Might taste like **** but just drink enough until you're all F*$#'d up.

OMG, 100 smackeroos for a bottle of M-4-AD....

 

[promatrix]

This dumbass over at anabolic freakz named "promatrix" keeps telling everyone "to use hydroxy test for PCT by itself." And then goes on to say that "how would you like to gain another 4lbs. of muscle on PCT?" How do you like that science?" What a fvcker, people like this are a complete joke.......

Well young lad, nice to see you posting my "name" with such an adjective.

I never stated the use of 4-OH for PCT by itself. Please lad reread my post.

Jergo-in short you cannot use it "for" PCT but it
does not decrease HPTA function to any significant degree at reasonable dosages. For this reason it can be used "durring" PCT. Look for an awesome product from another company coming out-"Aromabolan" next week...which is for PCT.


Without getting into a debate or argument with you here, I simply stated on anabolicfreakz 4-OH is a compound that can be utlized within a PCT protocol (that means more then one compound).

Testosterone-OH cannot convert to estrogen.As we all know But as another benefit, it is a direct precursor to the powerful aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (better known as Formestane). What this means is Testosterone-OH is a potent anti-estrogenic, anabolic steroid. Also,it even has HPTA regenerative qualities. When used alone, you will see no decrese in HPTA activity while regular testosterone decreases HPTA and shuts you down.

This is why I truly believe in very short protocols when using AAS compounds....and as Bobo mentioned very regenerative and highly funcitioning endocrine system and all relating issues should be stat before starting another PH/AAS Protocol.

But this is real life and many Non-competive-keyboard bodybuilders never really come clean , so they ride compounds everyday. Scared of losing size when if they used compounds correctly the first time and studied, they would not suffer at all.

So the use of this compound can solidify gains and keep some estrogen out. Most do not use anti-e's anyway so when coming to the whole PCT (which if one can master thier PCT) and lets be realistic for a moment....stay off and still grow, then they mastered thier bodies.

But most do not eat correctly PCT everyday nor do they follow bloodwork on themselves....I mean who is gonna read it for them.

My dear and Good Friend ALR is a very brillant man,as well as many others even here...Bobo being one of them.

The start of all knoweldge is learning and not yelling Jergo or name calling lad.
\Heck, e-mail if you feel the need or just ask me....I will listen, but please do read my post carefully. I just ask for respect as well as I am giving you.

Science and chemistry are powerful tools and should be respected we all agree. But remember a slight change is a simple variable can alter the view of science forever....that is how we grow and learn as researchers.

Look at the Market today......methlyated, esterifed products everywhere...OTC. They are powerful and useful tools for Bodybuilders, but they need to be respected too.

I am the CEO of retail for VPX. I do believe in thier products as well as many others.
I also must state as to having no ties with the a company called "Promatrix". Never even been to their website (no time)

I can help sell products I have a hand into making/researching. I might not agree with everything the OWNER does or what he Names a product. (but his marketing does sell massive amounts)

My job is to make a GREAT product that works.

After all, I am a pro bodybuilder and do have a hand into many other supplements other then PH's.

Funny thing is most PRO"S really are a lot smarter then one might think and really do use only half the AAS compounds I see posted or falseifed around most bodybuiling sites...note myself am being prossecuted here as a classic example by you Mr. Jergo.



Warm Reguards
Pro-

P.S. Using Compounds is Chemistry. It does alter one's being and should never be taken lighlty. Health is the major concern here. Being a Pro Bodybuilder also, I know what the body can do and react upon different variables that lie within the most simple protcols. I am sure as soon as the sun rises tomorrow, so will the whole scene of Protocols,AAS and Science change, it always does.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I never stated the use of 4-OH for PCT by itself. Please lad reread my post.

.

I knew there was a reason I posted this:

"If they aren't recommending people try this and this is just fodder for discussion elswhere, then thats different. I don't want to condemn anyone if they are just discussing something"

I see your point Promatrix and although I tend to to disagree with one of them, I think it would be beating a dead horse here. I think my above quote states it all for me.

 

[promatrix]

I knew there was a reason I posted this:

"If they aren't recommending people try this and this is just fodder for discussion elswhere, then thats different. I don't want to condemn anyone if they are just discussing something"

I see your point Promatrix and although I tend to to disagree with one of them, I think it would be beating a dead horse here. I think my above quote states it all for me.

Ditto my friend....Much respect.

I like this site. I might take a gander around a bit

Nice work Bobo

 

[lifted]

Well young lad, nice to see you posting my "name" with such an adjective.

I never stated the use of 4-OH for PCT by itself. Please lad reread my post.

Jergo-in short you cannot use it "for" PCT but it
does not decrease HPTA function to any significant degree at reasonable dosages. For this reason it can be used "durring" PCT. Look for an awesome product from another company coming out-"Aromabolan" next week...which is for PCT.


Without getting into a debate or argument with you here, I simply stated on anabolicfreakz 4-OH is a compound that can be utlized within a PCT protocol (that means more then one compound).

Testosterone-OH cannot convert to estrogen.As we all know But as another benefit, it is a direct precursor to the powerful aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (better known as Formestane). What this means is Testosterone-OH is a potent anti-estrogenic, anabolic steroid. Also,it even has HPTA regenerative qualities. When used alone, you will see no decrese in HPTA activity while regular testosterone decreases HPTA and shuts you down.

This is why I truly believe in very short protocols when using AAS compounds....and as Bobo mentioned very regenerative and highly funcitioning endocrine system and all relating issues should be stat before starting another PH/AAS Protocol.

But this is real life and many Non-competive-keyboard bodybuilders never really come clean , so they ride compounds everyday. Scared of losing size when if they used compounds correctly the first time and studied, they would not suffer at all.

So the use of this compound can solidify gains and keep some estrogen out. Most do not use anti-e's anyway so when coming to the whole PCT (which if one can master thier PCT) and lets be realistic for a moment....stay off and still grow, then they mastered thier bodies.

But most do not eat correctly PCT everyday nor do they follow bloodwork on themselves....I mean who is gonna read it for them.

My dear and Good Friend ALR is a very brillant man,as well as many others even here...Bobo being one of them.

The start of all knoweldge is learning and not yelling Jergo or name calling lad.
\Heck, e-mail if you feel the need or just ask me....I will listen, but please do read my post carefully. I just ask for respect as well as I am giving you.

Science and chemistry are powerful tools and should be respected we all agree. But remember a slight change is a simple variable can alter the view of science forever....that is how we grow and learn as researchers.

Look at the Market today......methlyated, esterifed products everywhere...OTC. They are powerful and useful tools for Bodybuilders, but they need to be respected too.

I am the CEO of retail for VPX. I do believe in thier products as well as many others.
I also must state as to having no ties with the a company called "Promatrix". Never even been to their website (no time)

I can help sell products I have a hand into making/researching. I might not agree with everything the OWNER does or what he Names a product. (but his marketing does sell massive amounts)

My job is to make a GREAT product that works.

After all, I am a pro bodybuilder and do have a hand into many other supplements other then PH's.

Funny thing is most PRO"S really are a lot smarter then one might think and really do use only half the AAS compounds I see posted or falseifed around most bodybuiling sites...note myself am being prossecuted here as a classic example by you Mr. Jergo.



Warm Reguards
Pro-

P.S. Using Compounds is Chemistry. It does alter one's being and should never be taken lighlty. Health is the major concern here. Being a Pro Bodybuilder also, I know what the body can do and react upon different variables that lie within the most simple protcols. I am sure as soon as the sun rises tomorrow, so will the whole scene of Protocols,AAS and Science change, it always does.

A) You never stated that it "it can be used in a PCT protocol" You said that it was and can be used for PCT.
B) You have money invested in VPX products, you cannot seriously stand their and tell ANYBODY that you don't have a personal interest in the marketing of these products.
C) Don't ever refer to me as "young lad" again. I'm not Irish, I'm not that young, and I can hold my own w/ any bro in real life...

Final thought-- Yes, calling you a dumbass, dip$Hit, whatever, was probably not the most mature thing to do. However, this IS the internet and I am calling you out. It's not entirely possible that I couldn't distinguish your marketing tactics from your "helping out". By means of the your posts over there, all I got out of them were you pushing VPX products. As well as everyone else here besides the ones that happen to know you personally.

I still disagree with you. In fact MANY disagree with you. It would be absolutely critical for you to post some backing up of your claims. I would actually take great interest in them....

With that being said, I hope you see where I and everyone else is coming from in relation to why you were spreading these claims w/o any consideration for science. And I hope that you think next time when attempting at doing so.

 

[promatrix]

A) You never stated that it "it can be used in a PCT protocol" You said that it was and can be used for PCT.
.

Here it is from my friends site-anabolicfreakz.com

"promatrix"
Freakz Rookie

Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 58
Points: 480
promatrix is now Online:


Your correct in that Finaplex and Synovex are legal to purchase, but it is against the law to use it in any manner other than directed. So while no one is really going to go to jail for buying it and making a solution from it, if you tried to sell the end product you would be liable for manufacture and distribution of scheduled drugs.

The problem with prohormones (this term has truly changed over the years) is not that they have NO anabolic activity, but that their route of administration is less than optimal. Truthfully, the original androstenedione was a poor anabolic, but something had to work its way in the door. The diols: 4-andro and 19-norandro, are effective anabolics, but not orally, since near 100% will be metabolized and excreted. Any oral effects will be seen only when you ingest high enough dose to allow for saturation of liver enzymes, thus having some spillover into the bloodstream. But transdermal allows for more entry into the blood with less dose. Injectable removes all barriers, but requires daily injections with unesterified or short ester prohormones -cypionates, enanthates, decaonates are the preferred esters, but not always available.

The orally active prohormones have bypassed all of these issues, since they are orally active and active at small doses. 17-Methyl-1-testosterone, 17-Methyl-1,4-androstadienediol, 17-methyl-4-androstenediol, 17-methyl-5-androstanediol, 17-methyldienolone are all orally active and under 100 mg, some under 10mg, such as 17-methyldienolone.

Nice work...but to add a bit more to this debate...thier are some nice esterfied PH's out now that have a place in protocols.
I can name 2 companies that put out steril solutions of PH's that work IM. And are quite nice.

HM Gear (they Use an SEO that is the highest grade) as well as VPX.

The only way an Oral will work it if it is delivered in a polylipid form. Very expensive to manufacture. But the methylated forms are very effective. But because the Limits are being pushed, the Goverment is banning them as of next summer.

The cool thing is that the Version of 4-Test-HT is perfect for PCT protocols. It does not supress the HPTA and allows for an anabolic enviroment while cleaning up after a nice protocol. It has shown to actually add 2-4 pounds of muscle while coming off. how cool is chemistry these dayz.........so PH's do work, but not as good as AAS.

***************************************************


Yes, I do oversee thier retail divison too...The owner asked to work for them because of my powerful postion with International@domestic vendors. I am very well respected.

Is thier something wrong for me working? Of course I want to sell products that I believe in and help devolpe.

Is their a crime here?
I work.

I am not the owner of VPX Sports. Being vocal about the names they choose is not my what I am paid for it is business. I am simply not the owner lad.

The owner is strictly hands on only when it comes to the marketing ploys he envision's. It is not my place to be vocal. I trust his wisdom or I would offer my services.

Actually Jergo, you called me Fvcker,dumbass and joke.

As far as your request asking for my research,studies and such.
I cannot release that information for reasons being discussed here about my employment..

Okay, I see you want to get personal and slighlty off topic of the PH.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine. He asked me to stop in from time to time to help out with AAS use. He is a good guy with a great site. I kept my word and when I do find time, I will stop by a couple times a week to "help out".

What is wrong with me giving out free samples of product?

This is the land of the free? I see many site owners who have thier own private line for sale. Is that wrong? I am not sure I am flowing what your yelling about? If you have a problem with the marketing, please call VPX and ask for the owner or the Marketing dept. Better yet, e-mail them. I will make up a follow up also for you.

Mr. Jergo,I don't agree with you here calling me a dumbass and such, but I am man enough to understand your point and respect it A little research Jergo and you can find studies on this topic.

This is the internet

If you want to discuss this matter futher on other then 4-OH then please e-mail me instead of this "calling out" I find it a bit childish.

Your jabbing more about postion as an empolyee then about a PH.Again, please re-read my post here...your missing something.

As far as me in relation to why I was spreading false claims without any consideration for science is simply hogwash.

Your diffently an upset young lad (your info says your 22) and you tend to "yell" when you type. I believe since your so angry you never really comprehend threads.

Relax and breath deeply. It is only a point of view with me, not a real life threating issue. Many members of my family are facing death daily overseas, that is a real reason to yell.

Warm reguards
Pro

 

[lifted]

Here is is from my friends site-

"promatrix"
Freakz Rookie

Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 58
Points: 480
promatrix is now Online:


Your correct in that Finaplex and Synovex are legal to purchase, but it is against the law to use it in any manner other than directed. So while no one is really going to go to jail for buying it and making a solution from it, if you tried to sell the end product you would be liable for manufacture and distribution of scheduled drugs.

The problem with prohormones (this term has truly changed over the years) is not that they have NO anabolic activity, but that their route of administration is less than optimal. Truthfully, the original androstenedione was a poor anabolic, but something had to work its way in the door. The diols: 4-andro and 19-norandro, are effective anabolics, but not orally, since near 100% will be metabolized and excreted. Any oral effects will be seen only when you ingest high enough dose to allow for saturation of liver enzymes, thus having some spillover into the bloodstream. But transdermal allows for more entry into the blood with less dose. Injectable removes all barriers, but requires daily injections with unesterified or short ester prohormones -cypionates, enanthates, decaonates are the preferred esters, but not always available.

The orally active prohormones have bypassed all of these issues, since they are orally active and active at small doses. 17-Methyl-1-testosterone, 17-Methyl-1,4-androstadienediol, 17-methyl-4-androstenediol, 17-methyl-5-androstanediol, 17-methyldienolone are all orally active and under 100 mg, some under 10mg, such as 17-methyldienolone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nice work...but to add a bit more to this debate...thier are some nice esterfied PH's out now that have a place in protocols.
I can name 2 companies that put out steril solutions of PH's that work IM. And are quite nice.

HM Gear (they Use an SEO that is the highest grade) as well as VPX.

The only way an Oral will work it if it is delivered in a polylipid form. Very expensive to manufacture. But the methylated forms are very effective. But because the Limits are being pushed, the Goverment is banning them as of next summer.

The cool thing is that the Version of 4-Test-HT is perfect for PCT protocols. It does not supress the HPTA and allows for an anabolic enviroment while cleaning up after a nice protocol. It has shown to actually add 2-4 pounds of muscle while coming off. how cool is chemistry these dayz.........so PH's do work, but not as good as AAS.



Need i say more?

Yes, I do sell for them...The owner asked to to work for them because of my postion with International/domestic vendors. I am very well known.

Is thier something wrong for me working? Of course I want to sell products that I believe in. Is their a crime here? I work.

I am not the owner of VPX Sports. Being vocal about the names they choose is not my business. I am not the owner lad.
But the Owner is strictly hands on only when it comes to the marketing he envision's. It is not my place to do so.

Actually, you called me Fvcker,dumbass,joke it do believe?=
=Originally Posted by Jergo
This dumbass over at anabolic freakz named "promatrix" keeps telling everyone "to use hydroxy test for PCT by itself." And then goes on to say that "how would you like to gain another 4lbs. of muscle on PCT?" How do you like that science?" What a fvcker, people like this are a complete joke.......

I rest my case.

As far as your request containing to my research,studies and such.
I cannot release that information for reasons being discussed here about my employment..

Okay, I see you want to get personal and slighlty of topic of the PH. The owner is a friend of mine. He asked me to stop in from time to time to help out. He is a good guy with a great site. I kept my word and when I do find time, I will stop by a couple times a week to "help out".

What is wrong with me giving out free samples of product? It is free? I see many siteowners who have thier own private line for sale. Is that wrong? I am not sure I am flowing what your yelling about? If you have a problem with the marketing, please call VPX and ask for the owner or the Marketing dept. Better yet, e-mail them.

I don't agree with you here calling me a dumbass, but I am man enough to understand your point and respect it.
That is why when someone told me about you calling me names, I came to see for myself. A little research Jergo and you can find studies on this topic.

This is the internet

If you want to discuss this matter more on other then 4-OH then please e-mail me instead of this "calling out" It is about a PH not my postion as employment with supplement compaines. Again, please re-read my post here...your missing something.

As far as me in relation to why I was spreading false claims without any consideration for science is hogwash.

Your diffently an upset young lad (your info says your 22) and you tend to yell when you type. I believe since your so angry you never really read threads.

Relax and breath deeply. It is only a supplement point of view with me, not a real life threating issue. Many members of my family are facing death daily overseas, that is a real reason to yell.

Warm reguards
Pro

I stated my reasons Mister VPX. Anybody with half a brain can understand where I'm coming from. I don't like you, and it is beyond me why you keep rambling on about the same things. As if I care what you think about me...

I prefer not to argue anymore on an internet message board bro. Its astounding that you still feel a need to. My guess is that you know you were wrong and trying to save face now.

I quit my yapping, yet you persist. That really shows your personality....

Have fun trying to enforce your ego...

 

[Chemo]

The cool thing is that the Version of 4-Test-HT is perfect for PCT protocols. It does not supress the HPTA and allows for an anabolic enviroment while cleaning up after a nice protocol. It has shown to actually add 2-4 pounds of muscle while coming off. how cool is chemistry these dayz.........so PH's do work, but not as good as AAS.

...

As far as your request asking for my research,studies and such.
I cannot release that information for reasons being discussed here about my employment..

...

What is wrong with me giving out free samples of product?

...

If you want to discuss this matter futher on other then 4-OH then please e-mail me instead of this "calling out" I find it a bit childish.

I find this thread a bit disturbing.

I understand your posture on releasing information and/or studies as a confidentiality clause is usually in force as terms of employement. However, there are standards that we enforce and have the capabilities to generate data independently from peer reviewed sources (as you know, there are seldom real world use studies for AAS compounds in typical doseages).

It is well established that the 4-hydroxy modification has anti-estrogen properties but nowhere that I have seen does it prove the theory of HTPA recovery or that the suppression in typical doseages can be used as part of a PC regime (providing a pre-existing suppressed state assumed from AAS use). Actually, contrary to your statement the RBA values indicate it should suppress in the magnitude of the typical DHT modifications.

So, as your post is alluding to there is nothing wrong with supplying free samples. I request that you provide a free sample of your cited 4-OH compound to a member that has access to regular blood work (specifically, supersoldier) to test your theory. We have suppression data from his previous cycles with M-1-T and T-1 PRO along with the recovery data utilizing nolva. I will provide either the M-1-T or T-1 PRO and you'll provide his 4-OH PCT. I will also arrange for him to receive a generous supply of mature PCT adjunct of his choice (nolva or clomid, flavored or not). I propose a testing scheme like the following:

• 4-OH dosed singularly until significant suppression occurs. Doseage to be agreed upon as "typical".
• Continue cycle with his choice of product (M-1-T or T-1 PRO) with regular data.
• PCT with normal doseages of 4-OH.
• PCT with nolva / 4-OH.
• PCT with nolva singularly.

In this manner we can evaluate the real world suppression from 4-OH singularly, degree of recovery (if any) from 4-OH use, effect on recovery in conjunction with nolva (as you propose in your post as part of a revised protocol), and of course the actual recovery with nolva. We would be able to track the effect of each component and either confirm or refute your claims WITHOUT HAVING COMPROMISED YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE.

If supersoldier agrees to playing lab rat again we can settle this in as little as 4-6 weeks (he has shown to be particularly suceptible to M-1-T suppression). Until then, I don't want to hear another word about 4-OH possibly used in conjunction with mature PCT regimes. The claims are baseless until we get real world data back...this is your opportunity to put up or shut up.

Chemo

 

[supersoldier]

We've actually talked about using 4OHT, specifically Methyl-4OHT ( http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11684&highlight=bridge) as a bridge, and I could test it out at a low, or "normal" dose with nolva post cycle, and monitor my blood to see if LH, and then testosterone levels rise at or about the same rate as they did with just nolva as they did in two previous threads ( http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11037&highlight=holy ; http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12909 ). The only problem with what Chemo mentioned above is that I'm already ON cycle (4AD Cyp/Prop and M-Dien http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14582) and my LH has already bottomed out. I have no problem using it in my PCT for this cycle with my nolva, and keeping a log here with LH, FSH, testosterone, cortisol, estradiol, ect. levels, also logging my honest comparison of overall feeling of well being, strength in the gym, ect. with 4OHT during PCT vs. just nolva. But I'm not coming OFF for a while though

 

[Chemo]

When do you plan on cycling off? We can time this so you receive your 4-OH and proceed with the PCT portion of the experiment.

Chemo

 

[Manu20]

I would be very interested to see the results of this...if you agree to do this supersoldier I wish you the best of luck.

 

[sifu]

I seriously doubt VPX is going to go for this.

 

[canadian champ]

Even if they don't go for this it can be done independantly of them. Results pending, this might discourage other supplement companies from making false claims... they might think twice knowing that the responsible folk here at AM might call them out and actually test their claims.
cc

 

[promatrix]

In this manner we can evaluate the real world suppression from 4-OH singularly, degree of recovery (if any) from 4-OH use, effect on recovery in conjunction with nolva (as you propose in your post as part of a revised protocol), and of course the actual recovery with nolva. We would be able to track the effect of each component and either confirm or refute your claims WITHOUT HAVING COMPROMISED YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE.

If supersoldier agrees to playing lab rat again we can settle this in as little as 4-6 weeks (he has shown to be particularly suceptible to M-1-T suppression). Until then, I don't want to hear another word about 4-OH possibly used in conjunction with mature PCT regimes. The claims are baseless until we get real world data back...this is your opportunity to put up or shut up.

Chemo

Done....send me an addy and how much you need for this.

Send it to [email protected]

warmest regards
Pro

 

[sifu]

I am actually shocked and impressed by that.

 

[N4cer]

LOL! I knew that was coming, Pro.
Now answer your damned cell phone.

 

[jminis]

LOL! I knew that was coming, Pro.
Now answer your damned cell phone.

LOL as did I. Also he's not answering his cell because your calling him. He told you once already he's not financing your gay porn site.

 

[fatty]

That is very nice to see. Promatrix has been nothing but a consummate professional about the situation in this thread.

 

[bigswole30]

Promatrix is a stand up guy amd I look forward to the results of this test. I am currently using 4-HT post cycle and am having great results. Granted I have not done blood work though.

 

[sifu]

I'm curious, swole you say you can't get samples for anyone. Yet he readily gave them up. What gives.

 

[bigswole30]

I'm curious, swole you say you can't get samples for anyone. Yet he readily gave them up. What gives.

He is alot higher up in the food chain and has access to the products everyday. I on the other hand do not. This is not a cop out, but is the simple trith.

 

[sifu]

I don't doubt you at all, I was just curious.

 

[lifted]

Yes, it will definately be interesting to see the outcome of all of this. I thank you Chemo and supersoldier for taking the time in your lives to do something for science.