Extreme knee pain 5 weeks into PCT

[p1nchharmonic]

My knees started to hurt a little more every leg workout about 3 weeks ago. Today I had to skip squats and go straight to isolation leg exercises because it hurt so bad. Is this normal?

 

[Renew1]

My knees started to hurt a little more every leg workout about 3 weeks ago. Today I had to skip squats and go straight to isolation leg exercises because it hurt so bad. Is this normal?

Mmmm.... No.

Are you taking an AI?
Did you experience an injury that you're aware of?

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Mmmm.... No.

Are you taking an AI?
Did you experience an injury that you're aware of?

I'm running 40/40/40/20/20/20 nolva. Finishing week 2 tomorrow. assuming my knees are both injured from squatting so low with a lot of weight, but I never had any issues like this while I was on cycle. I've never had knee pains before and I definitely don't feel like i injured it, it just slowly got worse every week for the past month or so. Tendinitis?

 

[Renew1]

I'm running 40/40/40/20/20/20 nolva. Finishing week 2 tomorrow. assuming my knees are both injured from squatting so low with a lot of weight, but I never had any issues like this while I was on cycle. I've never had knee pains before and I definitely don't feel like i injured it, it just slowly got worse every week for the past month or so. Tendinitis?

Possibly.

Are you taking an AI of any kind?

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Possibly.

Are you taking an AI of any kind?

I stopped taking aromasin during the HCG portion of my PCT about a month ago

 

[Renew1]

I stopped taking aromasin during the HCG portion of my PCT about a month ago

Hmmm..
Well if it gets bad enough, I'd see a Dr.

You could ask the guys for suggestions on the best joint support Supps. Hyde's good with that type of thing, because he works Heavy a Lot.

Just curious... What was your cycle?

 

[thebigt]

voltaren gel

 

[Rad83]

voltaren gel

I’ve had a bad reaction to icy-hot in the past....What’s the Voltaren Gel like, does it burn...?

 

[BBiceps]

Box squats have been a savior for my knees, maybe something to try while you fix your problem.

 

[Rad83]

Are you doing heavy leg extensions?

If and when I do those it’s only high rep, light weight and 2-3 sets.

 

[KvanH]

I’ve had a bad reaction to icy-hot in the past....What’s the Voltaren Gel like, does it burn...?

I'm assuming we're talking about the same Voltaren gel we have here, it does not irritate my skin at all and haven't heard of any irritation from anyone else. Mind you that so far no td's have irritated my skin either, but the Voltaren is pretty popular here amongst all kinds of people, not just with athletes/active people. It's used for muscle and joint pain. Main ingridient is diclofenac. I use it on my neck pain along with fascia ball treatment that I sometimes get from sitting behind a desk all day everyday. I think it helps.

 

[Rad83]

I'm assuming we're talking about the same Voltaren gel we have here, it does not irritate my skin at all and haven't heard of any irritation from anyone else. Mind you that so far no td's have irritated my skin either, but the Voltaren is pretty popular here amongst all kinds of people, not just with athletes/active people. It's used for muscle and joint pain. Main ingridient is diclofenac. I used it on my neck pain along with fascia ball treatment that I sometimes get from sitting behind a desk all day everyday. I think it helps.

Appreciate that, I might look into it...

 

[KvanH]

For general joint health I like Cissus. Glucosamine sulphate is decent also, just takes a few weeks to start working. MSM is decent for joint pain, but seems like it only masks the pain, so could be counter productive if you have problems with your joints and it helps you to just push through, but actually you make things worse by straining your joints more.

 

[Rad83]

For general joint health I like Cissus. Glucosamine sulphate is decent also, just takes a few weeks to start working. MSM is decent for joint pain, but seems like it only masks the pain, so could be counter productive if you have problems with your joints and it helps you to just push through, but actually you make things worse by straining your joints more.

Hah...I’m on all those plus turmeric and fish oil. Having some pec-delt pain/soreness...

 

[KvanH]

Hah...I’m on all those plus turmeric and fish oil. Having some pec-delt pain/soreness...

Weren't you asking about bpc-157 at some point? Have you tried it?

 

[Rad83]

Weren't you asking about bpc-157 at some point? Have you tried it?

Not recently I don’t think, but I most likely did in the past

I tried the capsules once and didn’t get anything from em’ ...I was able to return it.


Sort of considering a cortisone shot, have you had one?

 

[KvanH]

Not recently I don’t think, but I most likely did in the past

I tried the capsules once and didn’t get anything from em’ ...I was able to return it.


Sort of considering a cortisone shot, have you had one?

Ok, I remembered wrong. Thought you had a bpc-157 thread going on.

No I have never, but I've been pretty lucky with not having any major issues with joints. That's maybe the only good quality I seem to have in my body regarding athletics, lol. I seem to have very strong bones and decent joints. Never broken any bones, but I have stitches all over my body from getting hit in different sports and in some stupid accidents.

Anyway my gym buddy has taken cort shots and he said it's a world of difference. Nothing else has come close to it. But I got the idea that it's temporary? Like you can only take a few shots and so could benefit from it only for like a 6 months or so? I'm not too versed on the cort shots and might be just mixing it up with that he only got 3 shots prescribed from the dr.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Hah...I’m on all those plus turmeric and fish oil. Having some pec-delt pain/soreness...

you should replace your turmeric with some of the most bad ass stuff on the planet.. Helios~

 

[Hyde]

Lot of good advice here. You can’t know if it’s a low estrogen issue without drawing bloods now, but regardless of the cause you know you need to address it - pain is your body warning you to back off.

You need your PCT and Nolva shouldn’t effect levels that much (and getting test up should help restore estrogen anyway) so I wouldn’t lower that. Just steer clear of AIs as was mentioned.

Leg day you need to train like the vets do. Liniment like Flexerall or something on the knees before training, or maybe even a hot capsaicin cream like Equiblock. Neoprene knee sleeves are nice (but don’t use them over hot cream unless you are ready to truly burn!), and a cutoff pair of heavy sweats UNDER your pants/sweats helps too. Basically keep it all hot and warm before you even hit the gym. And always start with hammy warmups like lying leg curls or GHRs.

Like mentioned, Boxsquats can be a big relief on the knees vs free, avoiding heavy extensions, using a light knee wrap on your heaviest work sets, making sure the knees don’t track much over toes for any movement, keeping feet high and wider on Legpress with emphasis on driving through heels, and lastly just keep it lighter for a few weeks are all some tricks/ideas.

If you don’t ever do mobility work, you would probably benefit from a little. Foam roll your IT Bands and adductors. Use a lacrosse ball on your calves & glutes/piriformis. Do some fire hydrants & then hit some split squats to stretch the hips. Knock out a set of Glute Bridges and Side Lunges. If you are locked up, whatever is tight is going to yank on parts downstream.

Anti-inflammatories away from training to help recover between sessions. Curcumin is great for you. Apex Alchemy Helios was mentioned and is on sale now. You can use some ibuprofen or a DMSO roll-on applicator if hurting bad, but I would be looking to change my training before routinely relying on either of those last 2. They will work great for pain but cover the problem up.

 

[thebigt]

Lot of good advice here. You can’t know if it’s a low estrogen issue without drawing bloods now, but regardless of the cause you know you need to address it - pain is your body warning you to back off.

You need your PCT and Nolva shouldn’t effect levels that much (and getting test up should help restore estrogen anyway) so I wouldn’t lower that. Just steer clear of AIs as was mentioned.

Leg day you need to train like the vets do. Liniment like Flexerall or something on the knees before training, or maybe even a hot capsaicin cream like Equiblock. Neoprene knee sleeves are nice (but don’t use them over hot cream unless you are ready to truly burn!), and a cutoff pair of heavy sweats UNDER your pants/sweats helps too. Basically keep it all hot and warm before you even hit the gym. And always start with hammy warmups like lying leg curls or GHRs.

Like mentioned, Boxsquats can be a big relief on the knees vs free, avoiding heavy extensions, using a light knee wrap on your heaviest work sets, making sure the knees don’t track much over toes for any movement, keeping feet high and wider on Legpress with emphasis on driving through heels, and lastly just keep it lighter for a few weeks are all some tricks/ideas.

If you don’t ever do mobility work, you would probably benefit from a little. Foam roll your IT Bands and adductors. Use a lacrosse ball on your calves & glutes/piriformis. Do some fire hydrants & then hit some split squats to stretch the hips. Knock out a set of Glute Bridges and Side Lunges. If you are locked up, whatever is tight is going to yank on parts downstream.

Anti-inflammatories away from training to help recover between sessions. Curcumin is great for you. Apex Alchemy Helios was mentioned and is on sale now. You can use some ibuprofen or a DMSO roll-on applicator if hurting bad, but I would be looking to change my training before routinely relying on either of those last 2. They will work great for pain but cover the problem up.

you ever try voltaren gel?

 

[Hyde]

you ever try voltaren gel?

No but my wife’s old coach swore by it. He was 49 at the time and a pro strongman. World class strong.

 

[thebigt]

No but my wife’s old coach swore by it. He was 49 at the time and a pro strongman. World class strong.

up until around a year ago it was prescription only...before i had my knee replacement i was on it for at least 4 years, it was by far the best thing i used for my knee....now i am using it on my other knee before i go running.

i highly recommend!!!

 

[Kronic]

in my experience knee pain related to cycles usually means youre overly low estrogen. I'm not sure why but when you bottom out on estrogen your joints start to hurt. Mine was always knees too

 

[Hyde]

in my experience knee pain related to cycles usually means youre overly low estrogen. I'm not sure why but when you bottom out on estrogen your joints start to hurt. Mine was always knees too

This is definitely true. But he’s not using any AI so unless he’s just not producing any test yet (not responding to his SERM therapy at all) it doesn’t really fit the situation.

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Good info. After a week off legs, yesterday my knee pain was significantly less during my leg day yesterday, but still there. Sex drive has suffefed badly the past 2 weeks also

 

[thebigt]

just a headsup for everyone experiencing knee pain--get some voltaren gel. it worked wonders for my knee pain and you can get a tube at walmart/krogers for around 10 bucks.

 

[Kronic]

are you dehydrated by chance?

 

[Renew1]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Good info. After a week off legs, yesterday my knee pain was significantly less during my leg day yesterday, but still there. Sex drive has suffefed badly the past 2 weeks also

Are you getting blood work any time soon?

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Are you getting blood work any time soon?

I can get bloodwork ASAP, I was told my total T levels might not be too accurate from the Nolva, but I could get an estradiol reading for sure. Is estradiol the best blood test to get for estrogen levels?

I'm not dehydrated. At least I doubt it very much

 

[Renew1]

I can get bloodwork ASAP, I was told my total T levels might not be too accurate from the Nolva, but I could get an estradiol reading for sure. Is estradiol the best blood test to get for estrogen levels?

I'm not dehydrated. At least I doubt it very much

Estradiol .... Unless someone else believes differently.

The reason I thought of it again, was because you mentioned sex drive. So I thought maybe there might be a hormonal connection with the joints.

 

[MadStax]

I have struggled with knee issues for some time now. Some things I learned:

#1. Do not pin your quads. At all. Ever.
#2. Make sure the pain is completely gone BEFORE you do your next leg day. For me, sometimes that's two days, sometimes two weeks.
#3. Use the Voltaran Gel AFTER your workout. Never before. Use it even if things feel okay, because it is inflamed and that will help.
#4. Get a knee sleeve that you can wear during the day. I don't recommend walking or moving much when you have it on. It's more of a chillin at home thing, but it does help. The kind I got has the gel donut over the knee cap and the two flexible strips on each side. They come from China and are cheap on Amazon.
#5. Add a little Deca to your TRT if you ever decide to cruise. I'm cruising at 175mg Test E and 100mg Deca per week. That's just enough to help the knee. Also, as mentioned above, be very careful not to crash your E2 with an AI.

Good luck, I've spent thousands trying to fix my knee and gotten nowhere. Those things above are working well though.

 

[celc5]

up until around a year ago it was prescription only...before i had my knee replacement i was on it for at least 4 years, it was by far the best thing i used for my knee....now i am using it on my other knee before i go running.

i highly recommend!!!

Only maniacs still run after a total joint! (insert old headbanging emoji from 10 years ago)

 

[thebigt]

Only maniacs still run after a total joint! (insert old headbanging emoji from 10 years ago)

lol...i've gone as far as 7 miles on the 'NEW' knee...11 days into covid now and had some shortness of breath...will be starting back at probably 1/2 mile interludes to build back up lung capacity.....running is very addictive, but my left knee probably needed a break--for now voltaren gel is doing a nice job of keeping me in the game.

at just $10 a tube anyone with knee issues would be a fool not to at least give voltaren gel a try, imo....i consider my self somewhat of a expert at dealing with knee pain, lol.

 

[p1nchharmonic]

I just received partial blood test results back, my estradiol reading came in at <15, I'm pretty sure I'm experiencing low estrogen symptoms. Does anyone know how I can raise it a bit? I just lowered my nolva from 40 to 20 per day a couple of days ago. 2 more weeks.

 

[KvanH]

I just received partial blood test results back, my estradiol reading came in at <15, I'm pretty sure I'm experiencing low estrogen symptoms. Does anyone know how I can raise it a bit? I just lowered my nolva from 40 to 20 per day a couple of days ago. 2 more weeks.

Is that pg/ml? You didn't get total test and/or shbg reading aswell? One thing that comes to mind is dhea. It's not good for pct though, but it's not strongly suppressive either. You could also try to lower shbg and thus release some estradiol. Could try boron, tongat ali and stinging nettle root for that. The safest and most sure is time. Assuming the Nolva does it trick and your T levels recover, your estradiol will get higher too. But the fact that you have this problem at week 5 of pct is odd and discouraging. Should get your T levels checked also. But I think it's possible that your hormones are still 'trying to settle in' after your cycle and somehow you haven't aromatized a lot of E2 yet.. My 0.02 $

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Is that pg/ml? You didn't get total test and/or shbg reading aswell? One thing that comes to mind is dhea. It's not good for pct though, but it's not strongly suppressive either. You could also try to lower shbg and thus release some estradiol. Could try boron, tongat ali and stinging nettle root for that. The safest and most sure is time. Assuming the Nolva does it trick and your T levels recover, your estradiol will get higher too. But the fact that you have this problem at week 5 of pct is odd and discouraging. Should get your T levels checked also. But I think it's possible that your hormones are still 'trying to settle in' after your cycle and somehow you haven't aromatized a lot of E2 yet.. My 0.02 $

I'm waiting for my results on my total T, free T and my SHBG. will post when they come in probaby in a few days

 

[Kronic]

I always just stopped my AI for estrogen, but also drinking extra water and doing cissus should help. I forget where I learned this but the mechanism for why your knees hurt at low estrogen is lack of water being able to get into the tendons. Sorry if that's not true.

Have you tried a DIM by chance? The **** that's in broccoli. Most people on gear say it lowers test and raises estrogen iirc. It's supposed to bring you closer to natural levels

 

[Hyde]

I always just stopped my AI for estrogen, but also drinking extra water and doing cissus should help. I forget where I learned this but the mechanism for why your knees hurt at low estrogen is lack of water being able to get into the tendons. Sorry if that's not true.

Have you tried a DIM by chance? The **** that's in broccoli. Most people on gear say it lowers test and raises estrogen iirc. It's supposed to bring you closer to natural levels

DIM helps your body clear out/manage levels of estrogens, and helps protect the prostate. Cheap and effective. I can almost get away with no AI using 150 test e/wk split into 2 shots using it and keeping my zinc intake up.

 

[p1nchharmonic]

SHBG results came in and im sitting at 16nmol/L. Still waiting on total and free test. My last SHBG reading toward the end of the cycle was 5.

 

[p1nchharmonic]

Final results:

Total test- 185 ng/dl
Free test- 27.4 pg/mL

I got a prescription for TRT today. Should be starting thursday, but I'm a little nervous to be on this for life now. It does seem like it will be great to be high normal for life.

 

[MadStax]

Final results:

Total test- 185 ng/dl
Free test- 27.4 pg/mL

I got a prescription for TRT today. Should be starting thursday, but I'm a little nervous to be on this for life now. It does seem like it will be great to be high normal for life.

If you're cruising anyway, I highly suggest adding a little Deca for the joints!

 

[Renew1]

Final results:

Total test- 185 ng/dl
Free test- 27.4 pg/mL

I got a prescription for TRT today. Should be starting thursday, but I'm a little nervous to be on this for life now. It does seem like it will be great to be high normal for life.

What was the "normal" scale they used for free Test?

 

[p1nchharmonic]

What was the "normal" scale they used for free Test?

35-155

 

[p1nchharmonic]

If you're cruising anyway, I highly suggest adding a little Deca for the joints!

Any sexual side effects from the deca?

 

[MadStax]

Any sexual side effects from the deca?

None at all. Horny as hell and it maybe delays orgasm a bit for me. Otherwise zero sides and I'm certain it helps my knee and ankle. You'll have to make sure your T dose isn't lower than the Deca dose. I'm cruising at 175/100.

 

[Marne40]

Final results:

Total test- 185 ng/dl
Free test- 27.4 pg/mL

I got a prescription for TRT today. Should be starting thursday, but I'm a little nervous to be on this for life now. It does seem like it will be great to be high normal for life.

Honestly, it’s not too horrible. Annoying at times and requires additional considerations (like remembering to pack the sh!t when you go on vacation), but you’ll get used to it with experience. I’ve been on TRT for a long time and I can confidently say that the benefits outweigh the negatives (for me). I’ll take feeling like I’m supposed to vs feeling like ass all the time. I mean, if you need it you need it.

 

[celc5]

None at all. Horny as hell and it maybe delays orgasm a bit for me. Otherwise zero sides and I'm certain it helps my knee and ankle. You'll have to make sure your T dose isn't lower than the Deca dose. I'm cruising at 175/100.

Thats not the norm. I mean good for u, but the context of his questions wasn't looking for an outlier response

 

[MadStax]

Thats not the norm. I mean good for u, but the context of his questions wasn't looking for an outlier response

I believe it is the norm if you keep the test dose higher.