Epistane, Hdrol or other for fist cycle + other questions

[bjornm]

Hi all


I'm considering running a milder PH or DS for a first cycle and am looking for some final advice before I start.


Fist my stats
39 years
6 feet
182-184 pounds
14-15% bf


Goals
Net gains: I am interested in net gains that remain say a month after PCT. I don't care how much I gain during cycle or PCT if I can't keep it afterwards (of course with continuous good lifting and diet).
Body recomposition/lean mass gain: If I could add 5 lb lean mass and drop 3 lb of fat I would be happy. I have no expectation, nor desire to gain 15 lb.
Hypertrophy is prioritized over strength
Shorter cycle preferred: Ideally I would want to do a shorter cycle, 4 weeks ideal


PCT: Planning to do a topical formestane + test booster


Questions:


1. Based on the above, which product would you recommend? Based on my research epistane and hdrol seem to be a coin toss (user dependent), but I would still be interested in some feeedback based on the specific criteria.


2. Which specific brand/clone would you recommend?

Thanks all!

 

[edje007]

Both epi and halodrol would be an excellent choice for a first cycle.

Olympus labs Ep15tane has a big bang for your buck. 120caps x 15mg.

Nutriverse has some sweet deals most of the time, and first customers get 10% off.

Our halo clone will come out soon.

Other brands: lgi, ironflex are cool too.

 

[Driven2lift]

Epistane option:

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/ironflex-supplements-brawn.html

Halo option:

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/ironflex-supplements-halox.html

Both from IronFlex, a well reviewed brand with lots of logs here on AM.

As to the post before mine, Olympus is also shaping up to be another great option and if Orbit carried it I would have linked that as well.

Really your call on trying Epi or Halo, everyone seems to have their own preference

 

[McCrew530]

The only problem with running a 4 week cycle of Halo or Epi is that you are going to start seeing gains midway through week two. This isnt going to allow for much time to truly grow. My usual recommendation for halo or epi is 6 weeks. Both halo and epi will be beneficial for lean gains with epi being the "dryer" of the two. I do recomend a serm though if you run a 6 week cycle and possibly some cycle support to help with liver function and BP issues. CEL has a well established cycle assist and Ironflex just released their on cycle support for a killer deal on orbit. 17 bucks
As far as brands for your chosen compounds Edje listed some good ones Ironflex Olympus and LGI are all reputable companies.
Ironflex is even doing a buy three get one free deal on their site

 

[fueledpassion]

My experience tells me that Hdrol packs more mass on the frame but Epi may be better at a legitimate recomp.

Both increase strength substantially and both should be run for 5-6 weeks. Both are easy to maintain gains afterwards too.

 

[Hard.Gainer]

I'm finishing up hdrol. Didn't really feel it until about 4 weeks in and 5th week strength has increased more. So far up 15lbs of lean mass.

 

[Mystere3]

If you're going to do a 4 week cycle don't use epi/halo. I'd run mecha or dmz. Lgi makes both and either would cost less than $30. Run mecha at 75 and dmz at 30.

 

[edje007]

Might be running some dmz along with tr3st soon.

Olympus labs Dymethazi9e....

http://www.nutri-verse.com/dymethazi9e-by-olympus-labs/


Epi or halo 6 weeks...not 4

 

[bjornm]

The only problem with running a 4 week cycle of Halo or Epi is that you are going to start seeing gains midway through week two. This isnt going to allow for much time to truly grow. My usual recommendation for halo or epi is 6 weeks. Both halo and epi will be beneficial for lean gains with epi being the "dryer" of the two. I do recomend a serm though if you run a 6 week cycle and possibly some cycle support to help with liver function and BP issues. CEL has a well established cycle assist and Ironflex just released their on cycle support for a killer deal on orbit. 17 bucks
As far as brands for your chosen compounds Edje listed some good ones Ironflex Olympus and LGI are all reputable companies.
Ironflex is even doing a buy three get one free deal on their site

What's the shelf life of these?

 

[bjornm]

Might be running some dmz along with tr3st soon.

Olympus labs Dymethazi9e....

Epi or halo 6 weeks...not 4

Ok. I would say that while the preference is 4 weeks I would go 5-6 if necessary, unless there is an equal other compound that works well in 4 weeks. Have not ready up on Dymethazi9e, how does it compare to epi or halo?

 

[Mystere3]

It will have better gains and similar sides.

 

[superbeast668]

6 foot 162? Increase your calories. You really don't need gear to gain. You'll lose it all when you come off dude to poor dietary practices. You'll be much better off working on dialing in a diet. You may want to try to push to 200 or so lbs before using anything hormonal and I'm certain that's still not a "genetic max".

Every one in here should be ashamed for pushing product like this. This is pretty disgusting actually. edge, I'm calling you out specifically man, your much better than that. How about we worry about getting this guys training and nutrition up to par then come back after a year of having it dialed in tight and offer steroid advice?

 

[superbeast668]

And formestane and a t booster for pct ? WHAT THE F GUYS! Come on

 

[edje007]

And formestane and a t booster for pct ? WHAT THE F GUYS! Come on

Missed that one...

 

[timper]

If you're thought is to run that for PCT I recommend a 4 week cycle of hard research

 

[bjornm]

6 foot 162? Increase your calories. You really don't need gear to gain. You'll lose it all when you come off dude to poor dietary practices. You'll be much better off working on dialing in a diet. You may want to try to push to 200 or so lbs before using anything hormonal and I'm certain that's still not a "genetic max".

That was a typo. Should be 182, not sure if it makes a difference in your view though. It is btw the heaviest I've ever been.

 

[bjornm]

If you're thought is to run that for PCT I recommend a 4 week cycle of hard research

I am happy to be educated if you or anyone else would like share. Of course I want to do what's best, but it seems that there are different opinions on this. If I go by the posts here it's either:
1. "No, a SERM is not necessary", or
2. "Dude your an idiot, you need a SERM", or
3. "Take a SERM just to be sure"

Regardless of camp, rarely do I see someone backing up the statement with actual experience (other than those who did not take it and still were fine).

If someone would explain, I truly want to know this: These compounds claim to lower estrogen if anything. After the cycle, why would an estrogen acting PCT be required? One reason might of course be that they don't lower estrogen, but if they do, wouldn't it be better to address your test via some other mechanism?

Thanks for any helpful replies!

 

[McCrew530]

I have done it both ways with and with out a serm with "mild" single compounds and found that with a serm I bounced back faster libido came back quicker felt better and kept more of the gains I made on cycle. Vs just doing the OTC PCT where I felt like garbage for months after libido was in the tank for quite a while and I lost most if not all my gains a month after the cycle was done. Just my two cents

 

[superbeast668]

I am happy to be educated if you or anyone else would like share. Of course I want to do what's best, but it seems that there are different opinions on this. If I go by the posts here it's either:
1. "No, a SERM is not necessary", or
2. "Dude your an idiot, you need a SERM", or
3. "Take a SERM just to be sure"

Regardless of camp, rarely do I see someone backing up the statement with actual experience (other than those who did not take it and still were fine).

If someone would explain, I truly want to know this: These compounds claim to lower estrogen if anything. After the cycle, why would an estrogen acting PCT be required? One reason might of course be that they don't lower estrogen, but if they do, wouldn't it be better to address your test via some other mechanism?

Thanks for any helpful replies!

i still think you should wait a little while before using. you've got a lbm of maybe 160lbs if your bf estimation is close. no offense, but i know you can push it harder! thats awesome its the biggest you've been, its a great feeling.

as far as SERMs. i feel no SERM no cycle. they dont lower estrogen so to speak. I'm not great at explaining it but the block it. you'll still have estrogen in your body. you actually want estrogen. it will signal your testes to produce testosterone. basically clomid acts very strongly on FSH and LH, and nolvadex does the same as well as blocks e2 from binding to breast tissue. to get your body producing test again something stimulating FSH and LH release is probably a pretty damn good thing right? I do recommend digging deeper into nolvadex and clomids use IN MEN! theres a lot to be learned and a lot more than i want to explain lol.

 

[bjornm]

I have done it both ways with and with out a serm with "mild" single compounds and found that with a serm I bounced back faster libido came back quicker felt better and kept more of the gains I made on cycle. Vs just doing the OTC PCT where I felt like garbage for months after libido was in the tank for quite a while and I lost most if not all my gains a month after the cycle was done. Just my two cents

Thanks a lot, I appreciate hearing your actual experiences.

 

[bjornm]

i still think you should wait a little while before using. you've got a lbm of maybe 160lbs if your bf estimation is close. no offense, but i know you can push it harder! thats awesome its the biggest you've been, its a great feeling.

as far as SERMs. i feel no SERM no cycle. they dont lower estrogen so to speak. I'm not great at explaining it but the block it. you'll still have estrogen in your body. you actually want estrogen. it will signal your testes to produce testosterone. basically clomid acts very strongly on FSH and LH, and nolvadex does the same as well as blocks e2 from binding to breast tissue. to get your body producing test again something stimulating FSH and LH release is probably a pretty damn good thing right? I do recommend digging deeper into nolvadex and clomids use IN MEN! theres a lot to be learned and a lot more than i want to explain lol.

No offence taken and I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Clomid vs Nolvadex?

 

[superbeast668]

No offence taken and I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Clomid vs Nolvadex?

honestly man, i dont really play. i use both. after 6 weeks of a harsh designer or, well i'm gonna stop at the 24 week mark on injectables this time around i want to make sure i produce my own test with a quickness. a lot of literature i see recommends clomid and nolvadex at the same time. if i was going to run something mild like HDROL i'd probably just use nolvadex.

here's a chart from Dr Scally. if you've done any research you may have came across his pct protocol. either way this just show's how well nolvadex works compared to toremephene and raloxifene as far as test production is concerned.

 

[McCrew530]

Thanks a lot, I appreciate hearing your actual experiences.

Any time :bigok:

 

[superbeast668]

and i'll agree with Crew. theres been those times i've played with OTC PCT. just dont bother... lmao. its not worth it. not only did i lose all of my cycle gains i lost some of my off cycle gains which really really really sucks.

 

[Mosesport]

I'll chime in as well with the OTC pct. Total garbage if that's your only pct. It completely destroyed me.

I quit my job. Sat on a couch for almost 2 months (minus my time in the gym). Never wanted to go out. Had no sex drive. No interest in being social. Lost all gains made while on cycle.

I mean... if you want to run a cycle just for fun without actually keeping gains, then by all means only use an OTC.

Just my $0.02.

 

[edje007]

I'll chime in as well with the OTC pct. Total garbage if that's your only pct. It completely destroyed me.

I quit my job. Sat on a couch for almost 2 months (minus my time in the gym). Never wanted to go out. Had no sex drive. No interest in being social. Lost all gains made while on cycle.

I mean... if you want to run a cycle just for fun without actually keeping gains, then by all means only use an OTC.

Just my $0.02.

^ please listen to this op

 

[bjornm]

I'll chime in as well with the OTC pct. Total garbage if that's your only pct. It completely destroyed me. I quit my job. Sat on a couch for almost 2 months (minus my time in the gym). Never wanted to go out. Had no sex drive. No interest in being social. Lost all gains made while on cycle. I mean... if you want to run a cycle just for fun without actually keeping gains, then by all means only use an OTC. Just my $0.02.

I would want to say for the record that I'll go the SERM route. Now I'm in the Clomid vs Nolva discussion which is a jungle on its own. But maybe for the milder compounds they both work fine.

With that out, I would like to say: ouch, nasty story. What cycle were you on and what PCT did you do?

Thanks!

 

[Mosesport]

I would want to say for the record that I'll go the SERM route. Now I'm in the Clomid vs Nolva discussion which is a jungle on its own. But maybe for the milder compounds they both work fine. With that out, I would like to say: ouch, nasty story. What cycle were you on and what PCT did you do? Thanks!

Yeah, it was a pretty horrible time.

My cycle was this stuff called QuadStak. It was basically a ridiculous cocktail of pro-hormones. I was a novice and didn't really understand what I was putting into my body. It was sold to me by a friend who said it 'worked for him'. I should have done more research, but instead just jumped right in. My only PCT was this garbage called xAbol. It had a bunch if worthless chemicals in it, including tribulus. I may as well have been taking sugar pills. That was about 7 months ago, and it's only been recently that I'm starting to get back into the world and being social again. Let my horrible experience be a warning that these PHs shouldn't ever be taken lightly. It's a big deal. Make sure you have a proper serm. You'll need it.

 

[fueledpassion]

honestly man, i dont really play. i use both. after 6 weeks of a harsh designer or, well i'm gonna stop at the 24 week mark on injectables this time around i want to make sure i produce my own test with a quickness. a lot of literature i see recommends clomid and nolvadex at the same time. if i was going to run something mild like HDROL i'd probably just use nolvadex.

here's a chart from Dr Scally. if you've done any research you may have came across his pct protocol. either way this just show's how well nolvadex works compared to toremephene and raloxifene as far as test production is concerned.
View attachment 99459

Didnt Clomid outdo all of those? Could have sworn I've seen that same study with Clomid in the mix.

To the OP, SERMs stimulate the LH heavily. This causes testes to start working again. Clomid stimulates both LH & FSH heavily, which is why it's ideal for fertility treatment.

Typically, the old school approach, which is still widely used by successful people today, is to blast with HCG to get the testes back to normal size, then stimulate them via a different pathway with Clomid/Nolva or a combo of both for 4-6 weeks thereafter.

I'm starting to veer away from this "desensitization of testes" stuff with hcg and clomid use. The studies and body of evidence just arent there (with the exception of one study that I know of that used 10,000 iu's of hcg in one dose, which is absurb amount anyways).

New age thought is to use hcg on cycle, at 500iu X 2/wk to avoid desensitization to begin with, then to start PCT with SERMs as usual. I have no idea why we apply it to AAS use but not to 6-8 week oral cycles, which are proven to be just as harsh on shutdown (if not worse).

 

[superbeast668]

Didnt Clomid outdo all of those? Could have sworn I've seen that same study with Clomid in the mix. To the OP, SERMs stimulate the LH heavily. This causes testes to start working again. Clomid stimulates both LH & FSH heavily, which is why it's ideal for fertility treatment. Typically, the old school approach, which is still widely used by successful people today, is to blast with HCG to get the testes back to normal size, then stimulate them via a different pathway with Clomid/Nolva or a combo of both for 4-6 weeks thereafter. I'm starting to veer away from this "desensitization of testes" stuff with hcg and clomid use. The studies and body of evidence just arent there (with the exception of one study that I know of that used 10,000 iu's of hcg in one dose, which is absurb amount anyways). New age thought is to use hcg on cycle, at 500iu X 2/wk to avoid desensitization to begin with, then to start PCT with SERMs as usual. I have no idea why we apply it to AAS use but not to 6-8 week oral cycles, which are proven to be just as harsh on shutdown (if not worse).

I haven't seen the same with clomid in the chart, I do know it out performs nolva but it's not leaps and bounds. I think the data I've seen with nolva clomid comparisons are like the nolva over torem on that chart, which is enough to keep me using both.

 

[fueledpassion]

I haven't seen the same with clomid in the chart, I do know it out performs nolva but it's not leaps and bounds. I think the data I've seen with nolva clomid comparisons are like the nolva over torem on that chart, which is enough to keep me using both.

Correct. Nolva and Clomid would be dramatic I bet. I'm considering this on my restart...

 

[superbeast668]

Correct. Nolva and Clomid would be dramatic I bet. I'm considering this on my restart...

I see no reason not to. I plan to restart with dr scally's power protocol. 2500iu hcg eod for 2 weeks after last shot, clomid @100 for 4 weeks and nolva at 20 for 6 weeks.

 

[superbeast668]

I see no reason not to. I plan to restart with dr scally's power protocol. 2500iu hcg eod for 2 weeks after last shot, clomid @100 for 4 weeks and nolva at 20 for 6 weeks.

I'll also mention I've been balls deep since December and I plan another 12 weeks on. Dramatic pct for dramatic cycle=dramatic results.

 

[fueledpassion]

I'll also mention I've been balls deep since December and I plan another 12 weeks on. Dramatic pct for dramatic cycle=dramatic results.

I've been on TRT for 9+ months. Had a change of heart. Gonna try to do this on my own.

 

[superbeast668]

I've been on TRT for 9+ months. Had a change of heart. Gonna try to do this on my own.

Don't blame you at all brother, I'm sick of sticking my self. TRT is nice but if you can rebound why bother? I don't mind the occasional big cycle but it gets old.

 

[bjornm]

Thanks for all advice so far. I'm currently looking in to my PCT, but would like everyone's opinion on Msten+DMZ combos such as Sten-zine (Ironflex) or SUPER-DMZ Rx™ 2.0 (Black Stone Labs) or similar.

 

[McCrew530]

Thanks for all advice so far. I'm currently looking in to my PCT, but would like everyone's opinion on Msten+DMZ combos such as Sten-zine (Ironflex) or SUPER-DMZ Rx(TM) 2.0 (Black Stone Labs) or similar.

Good combos but may be rough for a fist cycle. Don't jump in too deep if you are just learning how to swim.

 

[bjornm]

Good combos but may be rough for a fist cycle. Don't jump in too deep if you are just learning how to swim.

Thanks, I probably won't. Still wondering though, what aspects are rougher? Liver, suppression? Everything?

I will have a solid PCT in place and was tempted by the potential shorter cycle.

 

[fueledpassion]

Thanks, I probably won't. Still wondering though, what aspects are rougher? Liver, suppression? Everything?

I will have a solid PCT in place and was tempted by the potential shorter cycle.

EDIT: StenZine wasnt bad at all for me. Granted, half the weight gained was water. Other half was decently solid it seemed.

Strength went way up too.

 

[McCrew530]

Thanks, I probably won't. Still wondering though, what aspects are rougher? Liver, suppression? Everything?

I will have a solid PCT in place and was tempted by the potential shorter cycle.

Shut down predominantly

 

[Xxmatt]

6 foot 162? Increase your calories. You really don't need gear to gain. You'll lose it all when you come off dude to poor dietary practices. You'll be much better off working on dialing in a diet. You may want to try to push to 200 or so lbs before using anything hormonal and I'm certain that's still not a "genetic max". Every one in here should be ashamed for pushing product like this. This is pretty disgusting actually. edge, I'm calling you out specifically man, your much better than that. How about we worry about getting this guys training and nutrition up to par then come back after a year of having it dialed in tight and offer steroid advice?

Strong this. I should have waited.

 

[mplsreppin]

Shutdown is what you need to worry about with these solo compounds. That is to say, the liver can probs handle the abuse you're about to dish out, assuming you're already healthy, but if your estrogen levels blow up as a result of a poorly researched pct, you're gonna have some serious issues...

Nolva is the goto for these solo compounds and both nolva and clomid would be way overkill here. Nolva blocks uptake of est but doesn't reduce plasma levels. It also primes you for natty test production.

That being said you're jumping to some serious stuff here. You could improve drastically naturally by fine tuning your training and diet. Also, don't be lazy and ask questions that are easily accessible in countless other posts, do the footwork and research for yourself. Ask questions after you have at least a basic understanding.