DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

[AdelV]

People worry to much. Gezzz you can still build muscle & lose fat without supplements.

Saying that, stock up on crazeeeeee! Lol.

 

[AutoKal47]

People worry to much. Gezzz you can still build muscle & lose fat without supplements.

Saying that, stock up on crazeeeeee! Lol.

One can go from point A to point B in different ways, point is, we should be able to decide our way
as long as it doesn't damage other people.
I don't see Craze as something that help me building muscles, it makes my workouts fun and I
want to be able to keep using it.
This thing is so incredibly stupid when you think about all the sh#t that you can legally buy
that can actually harm you

 

[DJBeanPole]

One can go from point A to point B in different ways, point is, we should be able to decide our way
as long as it doesn't damage other people.
I don't see Craze as something that help me building muscles, it makes my workouts fun and I
want to be able to keep using it.
This thing is so incredibly stupid when you think about all the sh#t that you can legally buy
that can actually harm you

Hey man... I can this preworkout. It's fantastic. Gets your adrenaline pumping like none other. A real stimulant man. It's called a handgun, man! Go out and pop off a few rounds. Oh hell, maybe some Russian Roulette! Yea man... that ****'ll get ya blood pumpin. Life or death scenario? Mmm you'll be pumping out 1Klbs leg presses in NO TIME, brah!

 

[tnubs]

I only have two tubs. Wondering if i need about 5 more now while its on sale...

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I would not be the least bit surprised if a competitor ran mass spec on Craze and brought it up to lawyers they know or used. Something had to get ball rolling here for a law firm to spend time in money testing or performing due diligence.
.

I ran a mass spec on it but i never did anything with it. i couldnt figure out what the weird stuff i saw was. apparently someone else may have ran one and figured it out??

you say mass spec is cheap and easy. thats relative. yeah if you own a mass spec it is. but if a supplement company wants to outsource the analysis of another companies products for contents unknown that is difficult and expensive. most supp companies scrape by, they are not rich

 

[Patrick Arnold]

ANYWHO... the lawsuit. Oh noez! The FDA is taking something away again?? I'm shocked. I'm absolutely astounded. I can't believe that they are... oh, no, wait... I can totally believe it. Folks, whatever is in Craze, the feds could declare it "illegal" in a matter of days if they want. Instead of issuing a memorandum saying that as of April 1 all nutritional and sports supplements containing cocaplopadecalolamine must stop using that ingredient as it is being reclassified to a "controlled substance" and will cease all production and sales of that ingredient, they'll act and declare it unlawful and THEN come back and start pimp-slapping supplement companies and manufacturers. Is this surprising? Nope. Is this right? IMHO, nope. It's absolutely stupid and just another example of how retarded things have become in this country.

.

sorry but its not that easy. in fact it is not easy for the FDA at this current time.

if it were they would have swept a ton of things away a long time ago

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I don't know who angelbolic is, but he makes some excellent points in here and other threads. That said, I'm fairly certain this will amount to nothing and remain skeptical until the final ruling is made. DS and the members of their team are far too intelligent to hype up a "spiked" product with no regard for legal ramifications. The amphetamine could be as simple as PEA or one of the homologs.

PEA and its homologs dont do crap though and this product supposedly is drug like

 

[Patrick Arnold]

one thing people are forgetting is often times the "spiking" of a supplement is done on the raw material end. Lets say Xiang Zhou or whatever tells you he has an amazing plant extract based on ancient chinese medicine and he sends you a sample and a C of A. You take it and are like "holy cow!" so you buy it in bulk and come out with a product containing it. But little did you know, Xiang has stuck a hard to detect designer stimulant in there. It could happen to any company, and in the case of erection supplements it has happened many times

 

[BPjohn123]

one thing people are forgetting is often times the "spiking" of a supplement is done on the raw material end. Lets say Xiang Zhou or whatever tells you he has an amazing plant extract based on ancient chinese medicine and he sends you a sample and a C of A. You take it and are like "holy cow!" so you buy it in bulk and come out with a product containing it. But little did you know, Xiang has stuck a hard to detect designer stimulant in there. It could happen to any company, and in the case of erection supplements it has happened many times

Lol aspire 36 pat...that was fun to be part of as a rep

 

[ericool007]

one thing people are forgetting is often times the "spiking" of a supplement is done on the raw material end. Lets say Xiang Zhou or whatever tells you he has an amazing plant extract based on ancient chinese medicine and he sends you a sample and a C of A. You take it and are like "holy cow!" so you buy it in bulk and come out with a product containing it. But little did you know, Xiang has stuck a hard to detect designer stimulant in there. It could happen to any company, and in the case of erection supplements it has happened many times

If what your saying relates to craze i cant wait to get mine in the mail. never tried it before but an adderall type focus sounds good to me.

 

[steppinRazor]

If what your saying relates to craze i cant wait to get mine in the mail. never tried it before but an adderall type focus sounds good to me.

In my personal experience, yeah its great while working out...but afterwards it left me feeling like complete ****. Basically ruined my day all three times I took it..gave my tub away. There's something nasty in there, and that's coming from an x meth user

 

[Est1969]

If what your saying relates to craze i cant wait to get mine in the mail. never tried it before but an adderall type focus sounds good to me.

Yeah...it's a sweet feeling. Love the stuff...but be careful what you mix it with. I once topped off with 1/2 scoop of Jack3d and nearly puked in the gym. Usually mix with Hemavol and the two get along quite nicely.

 

[uforce]

subbed

 

[mr.cooper69]

PEA and its homologs dont do crap though and this product supposedly is drug like

I didn't say they do. What's likely taking place is that there is a constituent of Dendrobex that is legally not presented on the label. It was a clever move by DS if that is indeed the case.

 

[poison]

That's a distinct possibility.

 

[uforce]

what happened to bb.com thread

 

[poison]

Bozz'd.

 

[uforce]

i didn't get to read the last 3 pages

 

[AaronJP1]

One can go from point A to point B in different ways, point is, we should be able to decide our way
as long as it doesn't damage other people.
I don't see Craze as something that help me building muscles, it makes my workouts fun and I
want to be able to keep using it.
This thing is so incredibly stupid when you think about all the sh#t that you can legally buy
that can actually harm you

^ Makes sense.

 

[mr.cooper69]

^ Makes sense.

It always makes sense until somebody gets hurt.

 

[AutoKal47]

It always makes sense until somebody gets hurt.

oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..

 

[Patrick Arnold]

If what your saying relates to craze i cant wait to get mine in the mail. never tried it before but an adderall type focus sounds good to me.

i have no idea what the situation specifically is with craze, but that is a possible scenario in any such situation

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I didn't say they do. What's likely taking place is that there is a constituent of Dendrobex that is legally not presented on the label. It was a clever move by DS if that is indeed the case.

how can something be legally not presented on the label? if you dont disclose it on the label it is illegal. if what you are saying is true and they are standardizing for some consituent but not mentioning that consituent specifically on the label that is illegal. It may be clever risk taking but its still illegal.

the chances of that being the case imo is less than one percent anyway

edit: actually it would not be so clever because what you are suggesting would most certainly be patent worthy. so they could disclose on the label while protecting their invention with a patent

 

[Patrick Arnold]

oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..

1,3 is disclosed on the label

Once again dont take this as me specifically talking about craze because i dont know the facts but supplement companies get hurt when other companies steal customers by cutting corners. they have every right and duty to pursue competitiors that are doing such things. A recent example happened sith slim extreme by AX. Some folks from a couple of other supp companies came to me perturbed about the product and their suspicions that they were pulling a fast one. I tested the stuff and found something weird. with the help of some psychedelic chemist guy from bluelight.ru forum we figured out what the stuff probably was. i bought a standard and it was a perfect match. AX ended up getting confronted and they pulled the product.

it seems to me that competitors are checking to see if DS is doing the same thing. there is nothing wrong with that. if false accusations are being made however that is not good. lets wait for the evidence to be disclosed

 

[Whacked]

This is ALRI Venom and AX SlimXtreme all over again.

Fall in love with product - it gets pulled for various reasons.

I'm thankful for the people out there testing products and making dang sure Im not putting toxic, questionable, OR dangerous garbage in my system. That said, it sucks that the best supps always seesm to be the ones that are tainted or contain a suspect ingredient. Go figure. Can't win. LOL

 

[Patrick Arnold]

This is ALRI Venom and AX SlimXtreme all over again.

Fall in love with product - it gets pulled for various reasons.

I'm thankful for the people out there testing products and making dang sure Im not putting toxic, questionable, OR dangerous garbage in my system. That said, it sucks that the best supps always seesm to be the ones that are tainted or contain a suspect ingredient. Go figure. Can't win. LOL

the temptation to play games with diet/energy products is often just too much for a lot of companies. If you make one that feels like speed you will make a lot of money very fast.

 

[996ttelise]

1,3 is disclosed on the label

Once again dont take this as me specifically talking about craze because i dont know the facts but supplement companies get hurt when other companies steal customers by cutting corners. they have every right and duty to pursue competitiors that are doing such things. A recent example happened sith slim extreme by AX. Some folks from a couple of other supp companies came to me perturbed about the product and their suspicions that they were pulling a fast one. I tested the stuff and found something weird. with the help of some psychedelic chemist guy from bluelight.ru forum we figured out what the stuff probably was. i bought a standard and it was a perfect match. AX ended up getting confronted and they pulled the product.

it seems to me that competitors are checking to see if DS is doing the same thing. there is nothing wrong with that. if false accusations are being made however that is not good. lets wait for the evidence to be disclosed

You said you ran Craze through mass spec so it would seem like you could answer the above question. Yeah, there are some guys in bluelight and a couple of other more focused sites that really know their chemistry. I feel same way. If DS did something under handed, they need to get popped real hard because it jeopardizes a whole lot for them to temporary line their pockets. If not, then hopefully they have savy enough counsel to go after sanctions and costs against the little Newport firm.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

You said you ran Craze through mass spec so it would seem like you could answer the above question. Yeah, there are some guys in bluelight and a couple of other more focused sites that really know their chemistry. I feel same way. If DS did something under handed, they need to get popped real hard because it jeopardizes a whole lot for them to temporary line their pockets. If not, then hopefully they have savy enough counsel to go after sanctions and costs against the little Newport firm.

i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past

 

[996ttelise]

i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past

Erowid and legalhighs are two others with some really sharp chemist. A couple if them disappeared over the last couple of years. I think their MDMA labs got busted.

 

[996ttelise]

i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past

BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.

 

[mr.cooper69]

oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..

Did I say a word about Craze? I still have some in my room that I use for late night study sessions. The point is that people are too dumb and abusive to not have laws that prevent them from hurting themselves.

how can something be legally not presented on the label? if you dont disclose it on the label it is illegal. if what you are saying is true and they are standardizing for some consituent but not mentioning that consituent specifically on the label that is illegal. It may be clever risk taking but its still illegal.

the chances of that being the case imo is less than one percent anyway

edit: actually it would not be so clever because what you are suggesting would most certainly be patent worthy. so they could disclose on the label while protecting their invention with a patent

Hmmm, I'm not too familiar with the specific details of labeling a product. Just for my future reference, let's say product X standardizes for Y ingredient. Could they not standardize that ingredient to such a low % that some other constituent plays a bigger role? I'm thinking along the lines of how corosolic acid and ketosterones in banaba and cissus, respectively, are often standardized to lower percentages to bring up other constituents (which are not listed on the label).

But yes, that logic definitely does not apply in this case, seeing as they patented it. Still, I'm going to wait for the ruling before passing judgment. It just doesn't seem to make much sense given DS' track record, unless I'm missing something.

 

[mr.cooper69]

BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.

Yes it does, but it is metabolized far too rapidly to exert any real effect.

 

[poison]

Coop, it makes sense. Like cissus: it can be extracted to 10% ketosterones; what's the other 90%? We know what it is, but with dendrobex we may not know. I don't see the other 90% declared on cissus products.

 

[Chequamegon]

i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past

What kind of column and mobile phase were you using, out of curiosity? According to the label, the denbrobium extract contains pretty much all PEA analogs which should all make it through. There were a few oddball ones in there too though... denbrobine? dendroxine? I'm guessing those might not make it through - depending on your pore size.

 

[Est1969]

Did I say a word about Craze? I still have some in my room that I use for late night study sessions. The point is that people are too dumb and abusive to not have laws that prevent them from hurting themselves.

I agree completely, tho maybe not with the 'dumb and abusive' part. I am great at what I do, but I don't know jack about chemistry. When I buy a sup OTC, I want to be assured that the product is tested and adverse health effects known. Clearly print the known adverse health effects in simple language, along with known harmful drug interactions, and let me make the choice on whether to put it into my body or not.

It seems obvious to me that the sup companies get real cute when given the chance (1,3 dimeth is squeezed from fresh, plump, organic geraniums!). I agree that we need the gov't to watch over these guys, even if the current application is far from ideal. JMO.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.

PEA is quickly deactivated by monoamine oxidase so it has little central activity. amphetamine is sort of like an altered PEA molecule that has a methyl group in the alpha position to the nitrogen. that methyl groups blocks MAO and allows strong activity

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Hmmm, I'm not too familiar with the specific details of labeling a product. Just for my future reference, let's say product X standardizes for Y ingredient. Could they not standardize that ingredient to such a low % that some other constituent plays a bigger role? I'm thinking along the lines of how corosolic acid and ketosterones in banaba and cissus, respectively, are often standardized to lower percentages to bring up other constituents (which are not listed on the label)..

well then they are still indirectly "standardizing" for that other constituent, albeit in a much more flimsy and reckless manner (hoping more is in there cuz there is less of the other stuff). That sounds even worse to me

 

[T-Bone]

Stock up boys and girls.

A class action lawsuit claims Craze is not natural and contains amphetamine (analog act), despite labeling claims that it is “safe” and can be used by students for studying. I was told amphetamine is a loose term meaning the ingredient is a designer stimulant related to amphetamine and would fall under the stimulant analog act.

courthousenews.com/2012/03/21/Craze.pdf

A second lawsuit is being filed in New Jersey on similar grounds this week naming DS, a distributor and several retailers. Additionally WADA is working closely with the FDA office of criminal investigations after several companies submitted their GCMS identification findings to the organization and claimed Craze will further tarnish the industry with what seems poised to become the next designer stimulant nightmare.

What I have been told from a source close to the New Jersey based lawsuit.

A. The compounds in Craze are synthetically made and not an extract. No NDI has been filed for these new dietary ingredients making them illegal to sell under DSHEA without submitting NDI notification. They could qualify as dietary ingredients if the substances present are indeed extracts of an herb or botanical, which they are not. They are synthetically made in a laboratory.

B. The main active is a potent new synthetic designer stimulant possibly related to amphetamine under the analog act.

C. The designer stimulant has a high probability to be poorly researched, no human testing, and possibly dangerous despite the companies continuous promotion that it is safe, natural, DSHEA, and GRAS. imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/extractr.jpg

D. The label depicts a safe natural product yet contains a synthetic design stimulant behind the clever natural extract labeling.

E. Legal and government action from the FDA will be immanent.

F. Stuff will hit the fan very soon when the toxicologists and full laboratory findings are released by the companies that have organized the testing.

I knew this would happen from the start. Saw this coming months ago!

 

[Patrick Arnold]

It just doesn't seem to make much sense given DS' track record, unless I'm missing something.

their track record? or their "good guy" status?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

What kind of column and mobile phase were you using, out of curiosity? According to the label, the denbrobium extract contains pretty much all PEA analogs which should all make it through. There were a few oddball ones in there too though... denbrobine? dendroxine? I'm guessing those might not make it through - depending on your pore size.

DB5 column with helium as the carrier gas. 15 meters long with 0.3micron film

i did an alkaline extraction of the material to ensure the alkaloids were all in free base form

the big dendro polycylic compounds may not have eluted, if they were in there to begin with

 

[mr.cooper69]

their track record? or their "good guy" status?

Elaborate? I'm not defending anyone here, but it's tough to get to the details with this sort of communication. I'm confident that you won't get sued for voicing your opinion about individuals.

 

[AutoKal47]

The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
I also think DS knew they had a great product that probably was about to piss a lot of people off,
I think they were expecting something like this to happen, I doubt they were not prepared..

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Elaborate? I'm not defending anyone here, but it's tough to get to the details with this sort of communication. I'm confident that you won't get sued for voicing your opinion about individuals.

i sent you a PM

 

[Patrick Arnold]

The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
.

as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?

 

[Whacked]

DS has been a solid go to company for sure. I'd buy stock in LeanXtreme if they'd let me.

That said, ANY news like this from ANY company is nothing short of disappointing and frustrating

What a shame to risk wrecking your reputation over ONE product. So short-sited.

I hope they bounce back and learn a lesson though.

The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
I also think DS knew they had a great product that probably was about to piss a lot of people off,
I think they were expecting something like this to happen, I doubt they were not prepared..

 

[T-Bone]

as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?

LMAO!

 

[Geoforce]

as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?

Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?

I don't know how anyone could fully trust a company in any industry really. But in the supplement industry especially. I've always enjoyed Driven Sports and the products of their's that they have used, but FFS trust them? I don't trust anyone fully that is trying to make money off of me. Especially not in an industry where this type of thing happens all the time.

But we don't really know much at this point and making real judgements seems pretty rushed imo.

 

[T-Bone]

Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?

I don't know how anyone could fully trust a company in any industry really. But in the supplement industry especially. I've always enjoyed Driven Sports and the products of their's that they have used, but FFS trust them? I don't trust anyone fully that is trying to make money off of me. Especially not in an industry where this type of thing happens all the time.





But we don't really know much at this point and making real judgements seems pretty rushed imo.

Designer Supplements, not Driven Sports.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?
.

Driven Sports is the new incarnation of Desinger Supplements. Exact same people, and many of the same products

Desginer Supplements introduced Superdrol to the market and made the aforementioned assurances when they did

 

[Geoforce]

Driven Sports is the new incarnation of Desinger Supplements. Exact same people, and many of the same products

Desginer Supplements introduced Superdrol to the market and made the aforementioned assurances when they did

Thanks for the clarification PA, must have been when I was "out" of the supp game for a while