Best Mass Building Supp *Not inc x-gels

[cubsfan815]

I wouldn't do it for my first run on any of these supplements but has anyone stacked Massmax and FD2?

This user did. There was never a final review though. Maybe we can all ask for his final thoughts lol.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=292547

 

[southpaw23]

This user did. There was never a final review though. Maybe we can all ask for his final thoughts lol.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=292547

I can tell you why there was never a final review. You're not gonna like it. Lol.

 

[R1balla]

I can tell you why there was never a final review. You're not gonna like it. Lol.

Uh oh...

 

[southpaw23]

Uh oh...

I think you already know what I'm going to say. Lol. I've said it numerous times before. Natties don't...

 

[R1balla]

I think you already know what I'm going to say. Lol. I've said it numerous times before. Natties don't...

Most don't live up to the hype. But there are some that actually help. It's all diet and training. You can't expect any kind of gains with poor diet and training.

 

[southpaw23]

Most don't live up to the hype. But there are some that actually help. It's all diet and training. You can't expect any kind of gains with poor diet and training.

I agree but remove those elements from the equation for a second. We all know diet and training are key to any and all success in and out of the gym. Natties are usually expensive for the negligible returns you receive. The life cycle of natties are usually 8 weeks. Around week three libido boost. By week 5, strength is slightly up. Must be the natty boosters right? At the end of the cycle, the results are usually underwhelming, which is why a lot of guys never finish their logs. Remember the offer you had the other day, giving someone an extra bottle of a booster, if they purchased the first one themselves? I'm so confident that natty boosters are underwhelming, that I'd buy that person their first bottle myself, and you provide the second. We'll see what the results are at the end of 8 weeks. Stipulations are, they're over 35 where the variables aren't in their favor, so the only other mitigating factor would be the natty booster. What do you think?

 

[R1balla]

I agree but remove those elements from the equation for a second. We all know diet and training are key to any and all success in and out of the gym. Natties are usually expensive for the negligible returns you receive. The life cycle of natties are usually 8 weeks. Around week three libido boost. By week 5, strength is slightly up. Must be the natty boosters right? At the end of the cycle, the results are usually underwhelming, which is why a lot of guys never finish their logs. Remember the offer you had the other day, giving someone an extra bottle of a booster, if they purchased the first one themselves? I'm so confident that natty boosters are underwhelming, that I'd buy that person their first bottle myself, and you provide the second. We'll see what the results are at the end of 8 weeks. Stipulations are, they're over 35 where the variables aren't in their favor, so the only other mitigating factor would be the natty booster. What do you think?

I would do that deal specifically for MassMax XT but he lives in Canada and I don't want to ship to Canada. MassMax xt is so different than other test boosters. Pure weight gain/appetite increase.

 

[southpaw23]

I would do that deal specifically for MassMax XT but he lives in Canada and I don't want to ship to Canada.

Fair enough.

 

[R1balla]

Fair enough.

But I totally get your point. I've been on this forum for a long time now. I know the game. Yes, a lot of products are too expensive for the benefits you MIGHT receive. Which is why I am very picky for who I support. I do not want my reputation crushed because I suggested a bunk product. Back in 2008, I worked for AppNut. I publicly stated which products I like and which ones do not work for me. My favorite products from them were Lit Up and IGF2. They worked great for me. I also really enjoy PES and I've supported them with my own money for the last 8 years or so. Mainly Anabeta and OG Erase.

 

[southpaw23]

But I totally get your point. I've been on this forum for a long time now. I know the game. Yes, a lot of products are too expensive for the benefits you MIGHT receive. Which is why I am very picky for who I support. I do not want my reputation crushed because I suggested a bunk product. Back in 2008, I worked for AppNut. I publicly stated which products I like and which ones do not work for me. My favorite products from them were Lit Up and IGF2. They worked great for me. I also really enjoy PES and I've supported them with my own money for the last 8 years or so. Mainly Anabeta and OG Erase.

I know that and I actually remember you from those days. Always honest and down to earth. I definitely wasn't questioning your integrity, so much as the class of supplements themselves. I took anabeta and enjoyed it. I gained about 4lbs from an 8 week cycle, which is pretty decent. Generally that hasn't been the case with most other natties, not just for me but also friends who have taken them for years.

 

[cubsfan815]

I agree but remove those elements from the equation for a second. We all know diet and training are key to any and all success in and out of the gym. Natties are usually expensive for the negligible returns you receive. The life cycle of natties are usually 8 weeks. Around week three libido boost. By week 5, strength is slightly up. Must be the natty boosters right? At the end of the cycle, the results are usually underwhelming, which is why a lot of guys never finish their logs. Remember the offer you had the other day, giving someone an extra bottle of a booster, if they purchased the first one themselves? I'm so confident that natty boosters are underwhelming, that I'd buy that person their first bottle myself, and you provide the second. We'll see what the results are at the end of 8 weeks. Stipulations are, they're over 35 where the variables aren't in their favor, so the only other mitigating factor would be the natty booster. What do you think?

MassMax XT is not test booster anyways, so that would be a bad example lol. MassMax XT boosts protein synthesis, strength, endurance, and muscle mass. It would be hard to pass that off as just libido increase.

 

[R1balla]

MassMax XT is not test booster anyways, so that would be a bad example lol. MassMax XT boosts protein synthesis, strength, endurance, and muscle mass. It would be hard to pass that off as just libido increase.

Exactly, which is why I said it's so different than other products out there.

 

[southpaw23]

MassMax XT is not test booster anyways, so that would be a bad example lol. MassMax XT boosts protein synthesis, strength, endurance, and muscle mass. It would be hard to pass that off as just libido increase.

Let's say diet and training are in line, how much mass did you put on with MassXT?

 

[R1balla]

Let's say diet and training are in line, how much mass did you put on with MassXT?

I won't tell you what I experience because others reading this will think it's just a typical rep hyping up a product. Performax Labs recently had a group of loggers run MassMax XT. If you want the links I can dig them up for you sometime this weekend. If I remember correctly, all of them except one (FireTitan) ran MassMax xt for 4 weeks on some form of a bulk FT was cutting but trying to retain muscle mass. The results from all of the logs were very very similar. 3-5 pound weight gain if I remember correctly.

 

[southpaw23]

I won't tell you what I experience because others reading this will think it's just a typical rep hyping up a product. Performax Labs recently had a group of loggers run MassMax XT. If you want the links I can dig them up for you sometime this weekend. If I remember correctly, all of them except one (FireTitan) ran MassMax xt for 4 weeks on some form of a bulk FT was cutting but trying to retain muscle mass. The results from all of the logs were very very similar. 3-5 pound weight gain if I remember correctly.

Any unsponsored? I may buy two bottles and test them myself.

 

[cubsfan815]

Any unsponsored? I may buy two bottles and test them myself.

A few unsponsored. I can grab the links for you. One sec

 

[R1balla]

Any unsponsored? I may buy two bottles and test them myself.

I'd have to check. I'm searching now. I have so much going on right now (moving soon, planning a wedding) I forget who did what. If you do decide to get a bottle or two, I can help you out on price.

 

[R1balla]

Unsponsored MassMAX XT plus SNS log

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290309

First one I found. Not MassMax XT solo though. I'll keep looking.

 

[Garyboy]

I like the cut of your jib. IGF-2 is one of the best you can buy.

 

[R1balla]

I like the cut of your jib. IGF-2 is one of the best you can buy.

I really enjoyed it. Used it many times. I used to give free bottles to older men at the gym and they seemed to respond really well.

 

[Oconns28]

I would do that deal specifically for MassMax XT but he lives in Canada and I don't want to ship to Canada. MassMax xt is so different than other test boosters. Pure weight gain/appetite increase.

Don't be hating on Canada! Lol also I'm only 31.

Man I'm so torn which to try MassMax or FD2.

 

[R1balla]

Don't be hating on Canada! Lol also I'm only 31.

Man I'm so torn which to try MassMax or FD2.

Try either one solo and see which one you respond to best! Let me see what websites (if any) have the best price for FD2 for you.

Edit: after a quick search, it seems Nutriverse has the best prices once the product has been added to the cart. For both FD2 and MassMax XT. Also, use promo code AM5 for any product from Nutriverse to get an extra 5% off.

 

[Garyboy]

That's very generous. Going to try Mass Max XT just based on your posts. You seem like a straight shooter.

 

[cubsfan815]

Unsponsored MassMAX XT plus SNS log

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290309

First one I found. Not MassMax XT solo though. I'll keep looking.

That one,

The review page has non sponsored review as well..

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291047

Plus that stack that stated this conversation lol.

I used a lot of ecdy products in the early 2000s and MassMax XT is a lot stronger. R1 and I aren't shilling bro I promise, we have all been on AM for years. No time for that BS lol.

 

[R1balla]

That's very generous. Going to try Mass Max XT just based on your posts. You seem like a straight shooter.

I can't comment on FD2 because I have not used it. Which is why you haven't seen me post about it. I need to get it soon so I can start suggesting it if I enjoy it. Let me know how you like it as well. And thanks for the compliments man. I don't want people wasting money. I've been on the other side of the screen before and have been led in the wrong direction. Doesn't feel good.

 

[R1balla]

That one,

The review page has non sponsored review as well..

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291047

Plus that stack that stated this conversation lol.

I used a lot of ecdy products in the early 2000s and MassMax XT is a lot stronger. R1 and I aren't shilling bro I promise, we have all been on AM for years. No time for that BS lol.

That's the link I was looking for. Nice.

 

[Oconns28]

That one,

The review page has non sponsored review as well..

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291047

Plus that stack that stated this conversation lol.

I used a lot of ecdy products in the early 2000s and MassMax XT is a lot stronger. R1 and I aren't shilling bro I promise, we have all been on AM for years. No time for that BS lol.

Dude no more morning wood with Massmax!?!? I didn't read the whole thing but guessing that's from the DAA?

 

[R1balla]

Dude no more morning wood with Massmax!?!? I didn't read the whole thing but guessing that's from the DAA?

Which is a perfect example as to why we suggest taking products solo before stacking. That's the only person (I believe) who reported something like that with MassMax XT but he also used DAA, like you said.

 

[Oconns28]

Which is a perfect example as to why we suggest taking products solo before stacking. That's the only person (I believe) who reported something like that with MassMax XT but he also used DAA, like you said.

Yes for sure. For whichever I decide FD2 or Massmax it will be the only thing I add to my current supplements

 

[Garyboy]

I can't comment on FD2 because I have not used it. Which is why you haven't seen me post about it. I need to get it soon so I can start suggesting it if I enjoy it. Let me know how you like it as well. And thanks for the compliments man. I don't want people wasting money. I've been on the other side of the screen before and have been led in the wrong direction. Doesn't feel good.

You're very welcome, and will do. If your boss is reading this, give this man a raise.

 

[bigsmall]

I think you already know what I'm going to say. Lol. I've said it numerous times before. Natties don't...

Have you tired Folidrone 2.0?

 

[f4iguy]

I believe mass max is the best bulking supplement I have ever taken. I'm not certain how it works but my hunger has noticeably increased. I could easily gain 2-3 pounds a week on this. I have to watch myself around carbs!

 

[cubsfan815]

I believe mass max is the best bulking supplement I have ever taken. I'm not certain how it works but my hunger has noticeably increased. I could easily gain 2-3 pounds a week on this. I have to watch myself around carbs!

Atractylodes Lancea Rhizome increases the "Hunger Hormone" named Ghrelin. Ghrelin can also stimulate growth hormone.

The rest of the formula focuses on improved muscle mass, decreased fat mass, strength, and endurance.

You mention carbs. Just a heads up SlinMax pairs very nicely with MassMax XT. That could be a stack you try out in the future.

 

[southpaw23]

Have you tired Folidrone 2.0?

Have not.

 

[Mike Arnold]

The best "mass-gaining" supplement on the market? In terms of total size gain that's easy. MK-677...period. Most guys gain about 10 pounds in 1-2 weeks. Of course, most of this is intramuscular water retention, but it LOOKS like muscle...just like the initial weight gain from a steroid like Anadrol looks like muscle. The bottom line is that no other OTC supp is going to pack on size and fullness as quickly as MK-677...unless someone knows of another product that adds 10 pounds in 1-2 weeks!

Keep in mind that MK-677 is also a muscle-builder...not just a muscle volumizer. Studies confirm this, with both MK-677 (Ibutamoren) and its sister compound (Anamorelin) having been shown to promote impressive lean mass gain in all test subjects. In fact, Anamorelin was recently released as prescription drug in Europe specifically for muscle growth/anticatabolism.

Also of importance for those guys trying to gain size is that nothing...and I mean nothing on the entire OTC market will increase your appetite anywhere near as much as MK-677. If you have struggled with putting away all the food you need in order to maximize growth, those days will be OVER with MK-677! Remember, MK-677 is a ghrelin mimetic (the body's primary hunger hormone), which means it is going to have a huge influence on your appetite...and it lasts all day!

I personally take MK-677 every day and have been for almost 2 years now. Aside from the fact I always look about 10 pounds larger than I would otherwise, I can't even begin to explain how much its appetite stimulating effect has helped me. I have some semi-serious digestive issues that aren't going to go away...and it had reached the point where it was getting difficult to eat more than 3-3.5K cals per day. With MK-677 I can easily eat 4-5K cals per day...every day. This is one of the main reasons I decided to sell MK-677 (which is called Somatozine and is an enhanced version of MK-677). It is one of VERY few OTC products that provides effects on par with illicit PEDs. It is also one of VERY few OTC products that is frequently used by both National-Level and professional bodybuilders alike (I know, as some of them buy Somatozine and publicly post how much they love it; one even "replaced" his 5 iu of exo. GH dose with Somatozine and says he can tell no difference).

MK-677 is no doubt one of the best and most effective supps in the industry.

 

[Oconns28]

The best "mass-gaining" supplement on the market? In terms of total size gain that's easy. MK-677...period. Most guys gain about 10 pounds in 1-2 weeks. Of course, most of this is intramuscular water retention, but it LOOKS like muscle...just like the initial weight gain from a steroid like Anadrol looks like muscle. The bottom line is that no other OTC supp is going to pack on size and fullness as quickly as MK-677...unless someone knows of another product that adds 10 pounds in 1-2 weeks!

Keep in mind that MK-677 is also a muscle-builder...not just a muscle volumizer. Studies confirm this, with both MK-677 (Ibutamoren) and its sister compound (Anamorelin) having been shown to promote impressive lean mass gain in all test subjects. In fact, Anamorelin was recently released as prescription drug in Europe specifically for muscle growth/anticatabolism.

Also of importance for those guys trying to gain size is that nothing...and I mean nothing on the entire OTC market will increase your appetite anywhere near as much as MK-677. If you have struggled with putting away all the food you need in order to maximize growth, those days will be OVER with MK-677! Remember, MK-677 is a ghrelin mimetic (the body's primary hunger hormone), which means it is going to have a huge influence on your appetite...and it lasts all day!

I personally take MK-677 every day and have been for almost 2 years now. Aside from the fact I always look about 10 pounds larger than I would otherwise, I can't even begin to explain how much its appetite stimulating effect has helped me. I have some semi-serious digestive issues that aren't going to go away...and it had reached the point where it was getting difficult to eat more than 3-3.5K cals per day. With MK-677 I can easily eat 4-5K cals per day...every day. This is one of the main reasons I decided to sell MK-677 (which is called Somatozine and is an enhanced version of MK-677). It is one of VERY few OTC products that provides effects on par with illicit PEDs. It is also one of VERY few OTC products that is frequently used by both National-Level and professional bodybuilders alike (I know, as some of them buy Somatozine and publicly post how much they love it; one even "replaced" his 5 iu of exo. GH dose with Somatozine and says he can tell no difference).

MK-677 is no doubt one of the best and most effective supps in the industry.

Never heard of it. Some pretty big claims but $75 USD is pricey!!!

 

[Oconns28]

What would be the strongest supplements for muscle building, strength gains that don't require a PCT?

 

[R1balla]

What would be the strongest supplements for muscle building, strength gains that don't require a PCT?

Any natural product that you respond best to. Anabeta,MassMax XT, AlphaMax, ArA...etc

 

[Mike Arnold]

Never heard of it. Some pretty big claims but $75 USD is pricey!!!

You never heard of MK-677? Wow! It is $59.99 with the 20% discount code. It is the equivalent of roughly 3-4 iu of GH per day (there's plenty of clinical research and user bloodowork to prove this). Many guys spend $200-250+ to get the same results from that dose of exo. GH, so the price is actually quite low considering what it does. Furthermore, my MK-677 is the best value on the entire market.

I can't believe you've never heard of it. You must not read much about PEDs, as MK-677 has been one of the most popular products--both on the research chemical/peptide market and OTC market for the last few years. Unlike most OTC supps, MK-677 is an actual drug with mountains of research behind it.

 

[Oconns28]

You never heard of MK-677? Wow! It is $59.99 with the 20% discount code. It is the equivalent of roughly 3-4 iu of GH per day (there's plenty of clinical research and user bloodowork to prove this). Many guys spend $200-250+ to get the same results from that dose of exo. GH, so the price is actually quite low considering what it does. Furthermore, my MK-677 is the best value on the entire market.

I can't believe you've never heard of it. You must not read much about PEDs, as MK-677 has been one of the most popular products--both on the research chemical/peptide market and OTC market for the last few years. Unlike most OTS supps, MK-677 is an actual drug with mountains of research behind it.

Well when I look it up and see "promotes cancer growth" that's a pretty big negative.

Yep never heard of it but I haven't done much research on PED's. I've been pretty basic protein, creating and pre-workouts.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You never heard of MK-677? Wow! It is $59.99 with the 20% discount code. It is the equivalent of roughly 3-4 iu of GH per day (there's plenty of clinical research and user bloodowork to prove this). Many guys spend $200-250+ to get the same results from that dose of exo. GH, so the price is actually quite low considering what it does. Furthermore, my MK-677 is the best value on the entire market.

I can't believe you've never heard of it. You must not read much about PEDs, as MK-677 has been one of the most popular products--both on the research chemical/peptide market and OTC market for the last few years. Unlike most OTS supps, MK-677 is an actual drug with mountains of research behind it.

There are a decent amount of human studies on MK with some pretty promising results, and also seemingly only, or at least mostly, mild/transient adverse effects (i.e. it tends to be well-tolerated). For a "natty" like myself who doesn't want to have to deal with AAS and the legality/sourcing issues that come with it, and the PCT and other issues for PH/AAS, MK certainly does seem like a promising first step into a new realm of "supplements." Out of curiosity, would the increases in GH/IGF-1 potentially provide some of the benefits that GH use does for something like Crohn's disease? Or at the least not be potentially detrimental to it like some compounds/supplements can be?

 

[TxHomeGrown]

What would be the strongest supplements for muscle building, strength gains that don't require a PCT?

In all honesty, if you haven't reached some serious plateaus, 40-50$ spent on Costco Sirloin steak would probably be the best.

Otherwise, i had success with Alphamax XT. And I know Tr1umph isn't really grouped together with "muscle builders/strength gains", but PA is legit, and it's a solid profile.

I haven't taken any of the new epi products. ArA made my joints feel worse than the time I used Winstrol, but it was effective (i don't think it's worth it).

 

[southpaw23]

Currently running a stack of HT 1-test and HT Ostaplex. Started early last week and strength is up significantly today on all lifts. It's been awhile since that's occurred. The strength increases are a dramatic step up from what I normally use (ARA). I'll provide periodic updates for those interested.

 

[Mike Arnold]

What would be the strongest supplements for muscle building, strength gains that don't require a PCT?

The best OTC supps for building muscle are going to be those products which most closely perform the functions of "REAL" hormones (testosterone, AAS, GH, IGF-1, insulin, and myostatin inhibitors) in the body. Everyone knows that those drugs are the very best muscle builders in existence, which is why every top bodybuilder and strength athlete uses them to gain strength & size...and why the supp industry has traditionally attempted to design products which mimic them.

Are there any supps available on the OTC market today which effectively mimic these hormones to even a moderate degree? Well, let's look at each class one by one, so you will know without any doubt whatsoever how to answer your own question.



1.) Testosterone/AAS: Sorry, but these days there are ZERO products on the supplement market that can effectively mimic these drugs. We used to have real designer steroids at our disposal, like Superdrol, Epistane, etc...but those days are gone. Prior to that we actually had some decent prohormones, which were only one conversion step away from reaching the target hormone and provided fairly impressive results. Now all we have are DHEA-based prohormones that are a half-dozen conversion steps away from becoming the target hormone. Most of them are total **** due to multiple factors (horrible oral bioavailability, poor pharmacokinetics, and as previously mentioned, they are multiple conversion steps away from converting into anything meaningfully effective). There are a few DHEA-based prohormone products that can provide mild gains (1-testosterone based DHEA PH's are the most effective) in novice and intermediate level bodybuilders, but the product must utilize an effective delivery system, as the drug will not survive the digestive system/first-pass through the liver without it, thereby making it totally worthless. Unfortunately, even the best delivery systems in use today are OLD technology that supp companies were using 20 years ago, but because everything good was banned in the last 10 years supp companies have been forced to start using outdated, inferior technology. Of course, they market it as if it is something new and radical, but the truth is that even the best PH-based delivery systems in use today are only moderately effective, at best....and nowhere near as effective as methyl-based delivery systems (which are used in oral AAS). In reality, even the best DHEA-based PH's are good for a few pounds of muscle at the most...usually over several months.

What about test boosters? Forget it. A total waste of money...at least from a muscle growth standpoint. One class of test boosters (the aromatase inhibitors) can effectively restore testosterone production after a cycle of AAS, but in non-suppressed individuals they will not raise testosterone levels high enough to cross the anabolic threshold. In other words, test levels will not reach into the supraphysiological range, so you are not going to experience anywhere near "drug-like" results. At best a novice and perhaps intermediate bodybuilder may gain 1-2 pounds of muscle over an extended period of time (as a direct result of minor testosterone elevation), but for more advanced bodybuilders they will do nothing.

How about those "other" test boosters made out of various herbs, plants, and minerals, such Tribulus, DAA, Coleus, ZMA, etc? Nope. They barely raise testosterone levels at all...and even if you happen to see advertising that says "raises testosterone levels by 300%", keep in mind that in the average man, who has a testosterone score of 500 (normal today), that is only going to bring him up to about 1,500 ng/dl, which is barely outside of the normal range. A testosterone level in that range will result in improved growth over time (nothing dramatic), as long as those levels are maintained throughout the day. The problem with these products is that they only maintain those levels for a few hours at best, which isn't going to do jack**** for muscle growth. You want proof? Even when effective test boosters like the original "Noxadex XT" (by Gaspari nutrition; back when Gaspari was innovative and making great stuff) was around (pre-ban), it was not known to cause significant gains in muscle mass...and that product was capable of elevating free test levels by 600% and total test levels over 300%...all day long! Yet, significant gains in muscle mass were not reported. It was mostly used as a PCT drug or just to give guys that extra mental "edge" and increase sex drive. It certainly did not provide dramatic growth benefits. It's the same with prescription aromatase inhibitors (letrozole, arimidex, aromasin, etc); they raise testosterone more effectively than any of the aromatase inhibitors on the OTC market today, yet none of them have EVER been shown to build significant amounts of muscle mass, either clinically or in the real-world, when when used as "test boosting" agents.

So, if even Novadex XT and the other prescription-based aromatase inhibitors aren't able to produce significant gains in muscle mass, which promote greater elevations in testosterone levels than OTC aromatase inhibitors (and much greater and longer-lasting elevations than the herbal class of test boosters), it is only reasonable to conclude that today's test boosters aren't going to do much for muscle growth. They never have and they never will. We know very well what amount of testosterone is required to produce significant gains in muscle mass...and non-supraphysiological elevations for a few hours per day certainly isn't it! Oh, and don't get sucked into the "reviews" on these products, in which under-developed trainers (i.e nowhere near reaching their natural genetic potential) claim to have gained 10 pounds in 2 months, or similarly impressive gains. These products will not cause anywhere NEAR that amount of muscle growth. If anyone in those circumstances gains that amount of muscle mass, you can be rest-assured that nearly all of it is due to their training and diet, not having a moderately elevated testosterone level for a couple hours each day. Believe that. When I first started serious training, I gained 64 pounds of bodyweight (at least 75% muscle) in my first year of training...100% drug-free (I went from 167 lbs to 231 lbs at 6'1 height). This may be hard to believe for some, but it's the truth. I only mention it to show where these type of gains are really coming from (training and diet)--not mild, short-lived elevations in testosterone levels.

2.) Insulin: Sorry again, but there is nothing even remotely close to capable of mimicking the effects of insulin in today's OTC supp market. It's not even worth discussing any of the products that claim to. Now, some of these "insulin senstizers/mimetics" have great health benefits and can help make it easier to stay lean. They can even provide "indirect" growth benefits (mostly by restoring insulin sensitivity in PED using bodybuilders who suffer from insulin resistance due to high-dose GH and insulin use) , but they will not have any meaningful effects on growth in those who don't suffer from insulin resistance.

3.) IGF-1: Nada...nothing...zilch...no sense in even talking about it (there is one product that raises IGF-1 levels VERY effectively, but it is listed under the GH section, as it increases IGF-1 levels via GH elevation).

4.) Myostatin Inhibitors: Some of these products have been shown to provide moderate growth benefits, although nowhere near what is seen with pharmaceutically derived myostatin inhibiting "drugs". This I can tell you from experience. Unfortunately, legitimate, properly dosed myostatin inhibiting drugs are not only difficult to source, but are also incredibly expensive (most are way under-dosed even when they are real). Furthermore, when one takes an OTC myostatin inhibitor (assuming the person is using an "effective" one to begin with), the body will attempt to neutralize the product's effects within just a few weeks by increasing production of endogenous myostatin. This is the body's way of trying to maintain homeostasis. The same thing happens (endogenous myostatin production increases) when we use AAS, which is a big part of the reason why gains start to slow way down after the first 4-6 weeks of a cycle. For this reason these products must be cycled, although they can be helpful in stimulating new gains in the short-term.

5.) GH: This is the ONLY category in which an OTC product can actually mimic the effects of 3-4 iu's of injectable growth hormone...and there is only ONE product that can do it. This is MK-677. Technically a drug, MK-677 has a mountain of clinical research behind it supporting its effectiveness in this capacity, as well as a multitude of user labs confirming this clinical research. MK-677 is the ONLY orally active GH secretagogue on the OTC market today that can actually elevate GH and IGF-1 levels (all day long) comparable to injectable growth hormone, but what kind of results does it provide? Exactly what you would expect from a drug that increase GH and IGF-1 levels to the same degree of 3-4 IU of injectable GH. In other words, it produces increases in muscle size, recovery, and growth equivalent to 3-4 IU of injectable GH...at a fraction of the cost. People who use the product typically gain about 8-10 pounds of body weight in the first 1-2 weeks. Most of this weight is in the form of intramuscular water, which is the same mechanisms by which exo. GH causes its initial burst of weight gain. Because this water is stored primarily inside the muscle and not under the skin (subcutaneous) it makes the user look like they have gained a real 8-10 pounds of muscle tissue. After all, muscle is comprised mostly of water...and anytime we can increase the amount of water stored inside the muscle it is going to look bigger, regardless of whether we accomplish this through MK-677, injectable GH, Anadrol, insulin, or even carb-loading. All of these drugs/practices have the same effect--bigger muscles within a short period of time. there is not a single "supplement" on the entire OTC market which will add as much size, or do it as quickly, as MK-677. There is a GOOD REASON why even some professional and National Level bodybuilders have switched out their injectable GH for MK-677. I know, because one of them publicly posted that after starting to use Somatozine (an enhanced version of MK-677 that I sell), he dropped his injectable GH (he was using 5 iu/daily) and decided to use Somatozine alone. He claimed he could tell no difference between the 5 iu of GH he had been using for years...and Somatozine. This is not surprising, however, as Somatozine is more effective than plain MK-677 due to the synergistic effect that MK-677 has with the other ingredients in the product.

For those of you who don't believe this, I will not only be happy to provide you with plenty of clinical research supporting my claim, but I can direct you to countless advanced, PED using bodybuilders who now include MK-677 (Somatozine) in their programs...permanently.

MK-677 also has a dramatic effect on hunger levels, causing huge increases in appetite all day long. This is understandable, as MK-677 is a ghrelin mimetic like GHRP-6 (although much more effective from a GH releasing standpoint). Whether or not the individual views this as a positive or negative trait will depend on their goals, but for those guys trying to gain mass and who struggle to eat all the calories they need to grow, this effect may prove itself to be invaluable. It certainly has for me. If anyone here can show me one OTC product that provides more dramatic effects on size, recovery, and appetite than MK-677, I will rescind my claim in full...but that's not going to happen...because no other product has the amount of clinical or real-world evidence that MK-677 does...and it works the same in everyone, regardless of how developed the individual may be to start with.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Well when I look it up and see "promotes cancer growth" that's a pretty big negative.

Yep never heard of it but I haven't done much research on PED's. I've been pretty basic protein, creating and pre-workouts.

It does NOT promote cancer growth.

Here's the deal. MK-677 increases GH levels dramatically...and when you increase GH levels dramatically, you increase IGF-1 levels dramatically. Now, if you ALREADY have cancer (the key word here being "already"), IGF-1 can accelerate cancer cell growth in IGF-1 sensitive cancers. This is why doctors will give patients with IGF-1 sensitive cancers drugs which decrease IGF-1 levels. It's the same with estrogen and breast cancer...or testosterone and prostate cancer. Testosterone does not cause prostate cancer and estrogen does not cause breast cancer. However, breast cancer is estrogen sensitive, just like prostate cancer is testosterone (DHT) sensitive, so if someone develops breast or prostate cancer, they will be given drugs which reduce estrogen or testosterone (DHT) levels, respectively.

IGF-1 itself does not "cause" cancer anymore than testosterone or estrogen "causes" cancer. There is absolutely ZERO scientific evidence to suggest that IGF-1, estrogen, testosterone, or any other naturally occurring hormone causes cancer. If they did...well...you might as well castrate yourself now...and while you're at it, you might as well have your pituitary gland implanted with radioactive beads, because those organs are continuously pumping out testosterone and GH/IGF-1.

When I said to "do some research", I meant from reputable sources, such as PubMed, etc; not some random internet poster who might not have any clue what he is talking about (which is the case here).

MK-677 has proven itself to be a VERY safe drug--far safer than many of the "supplements" you see on the OTC market today...because unlike many OTC supps, MK-677 actually has an immense amount of clinical research done on real human beings, proving its safety and effectiveness.

There will be some logs starting on Somatozine here very soon, as I sent out bottles to 3 different, respected community members from this website. If you toon in, you will quickly learn that MK-677 does indeed produce the results I have spoken about here.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I believe mass max is the best bulking supplement I have ever taken. I'm not certain how it works but my hunger has noticeably increased. I could easily gain 2-3 pounds a week on this. I have to watch myself around carbs!

I am not sure what this product is, but many people underestimate the effect that truly effective appetite stimulants can have on muscle growth, especially in those individuals who struggle to consistently eat all the calories they need for growth. For these individuals I would say that appetite stimulants are one of the most valuable classes of supplementation...because if the person isn't eating enough to grow, he won't grow, no matter how hard he trains or how meticulous his dietary regimen may be. It's as simple as that.

 

[Mike Arnold]

There are a decent amount of human studies on MK with some pretty promising results, and also seemingly only, or at least mostly, mild/transient adverse effects (i.e. it tends to be well-tolerated). For a "natty" like myself who doesn't want to have to deal with AAS and the legality/sourcing issues that come with it, and the PCT and other issues for PH/AAS, MK certainly does seem like a promising first step into a new realm of "supplements." Out of curiosity, would the increases in GH/IGF-1 potentially provide some of the benefits that GH use does for something like Crohn's disease? Or at the least not be potentially detrimental to it like some compounds/supplements can be?

I hate not being able to answer a question, but to be honest I know very little about Crohn's disease and therefore don't feel comfortable in attempting to answer this question. However, if there is something specific about GH which helps/hurts those with Crohn's disease, if you tell me what it is, I could probably answer your question based on that information alone, as I am thoroughly familiar with both GH and MK-677.

Thank you for the positive comments on MK-667. You are absolutely right. The research is solid and the side effects are very mild/transient. The fact that it doesn't require any ancillary supplementation or PCT is also a plus (saves money).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I hate not being able to answer a question, but to be honest I know very little about Crohn's disease and therefore don't feel comfortable in attempting to answer this question. However, if there is something specific about GH which helps/hurts those with Crohn's disease, if you tell me what it is, I could probably answer your question based on that information alone, as I am thoroughly familiar with both GH and MK-677.

Thank you for the positive comments on MK-667. You are absolutely right. The research is solid and the side effects are very mild/transient. The fact that it doesn't require any ancillary supplementation or PCT is also a plus (saves money).

Research seems to indicate that GH/IGF-1 could help, if anything. I personally know of some doctors who have seen reports of it help and be a useful treatment tool that also has secondary benefits, such as improvements in body composition, which can be especially beneficial for people with inflammatory diseases.

65% of patients receiving GH achieved clinical remission, compared to 20% treated with CTX alone (p=0.03). While endoscopic disease activity trended towards an improvement at week 12 in group A, this did not differ between the groups. 61% of week 12 GH responders maintained their clinical response through week 64. Mean (95th CI) height Z score on GH increased from -1.1 (-1.6,-0.6) to -0.4 (-1,0.2), p=0.004 during this 52 week extension phase. GH was well tolerated with no unexpected safety signals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2910806/#!po=45.3704

There is evidence that GH enhances survival, remission of inflammation and mucosal repair in dextran sodium sulfate–induced colitis in transgenic mice that overexpress GH.[4]

A double-blind and placebo-controlled study in 37 patients with moderate-to-severe active Crohn's disease (CD) showed that therapy with recombinant GH (Somatropin, Humatrope, Eli Lilly, Indianapolis, USA) may be a beneficial treatment. In this trial, the GH dose of 5 mg/day subcutaneously for 1 week, followed by 1.5 mg/day maintenance dose for 4 months was superior to placebo with regard to reducing Crohn's disease activity index (CDAI)[7] by a mean of 143 ± 144 and 19 ± 63, respectively.[8]

GH and IGF-1 are relevant for IBD because of their trophic effects on epithelial cells, mesenchymal cells and intestinal immune cells. Even though it appears that GH therapy is beneficial, potential risks and complications by its direct effects or induction of IGF-1 are possible. It is suggested that IGF-1 can produce an increased risk of intestinal cancer and fibrosis.[9] GH have shown a potential carcinogenic role in colorectal cancer,[10] primary Ki-1 lymphoma of the skin,[11] liposarcoma and lipoma,[12] hepatocarcinoma,[13] breast cancer,[14] prostate cancer[15] and uterine cervical cancer.[16] The trials regarding the usefulness of GH in IBD have not reported an increased incidence of cancer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841424/#!po=16.2500

The IBD-related growth failure and decreased muscle mass could be the result of a variety of mechanisms including decreased nutrient intake, malabsorption of ingested nutrients, and increased metabolic rate but also could be attributed to elevated concentrations of inflammatory cytokines, decreased level of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), and treatment with corticosteroids [111]. Both plasma IGF-I and muscle IGF-I are decreased in response to diverse inflammatory insults that accelerate the loss of muscle protein [112]. The function of the GH-insulin-like growth factor- (IGF-) I axis depends on finely tuned mechanisms, which can be impaired by inflammatory cytokines released from pathologically modified mWAT. Inflammatory cytokines, notably TNF-α, reduce liver GH receptor numbers and seem to be responsible for hepatic GH resistance and decrease of circulating IGF-I level that leads to growth inhibition and decrease of lean body mass (LBM)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022156/

 

[Adizzle1]

When looking for a dietary supplement to gain muscle and you get pushed on a drug, cool story bro!

 

[Mike Arnold]

When looking for a dietary supplement to gain muscle and you get pushed on a drug, cool story bro!

Dietary supplement? Come on. Do you think that all the "PH's" sold on here aren't drugs? LOL. How about DMAA? Yep, that's a drug too. Nootropics? Most definitely. At least 50% of them are considered "drugs", with tons of products containing one or more of them. Hell, the entire supplement industry is riddled with "drugs" that do not meet DSHEA guidelines. That's the REAL story. The bull**** story is when people come on here and bash the people who tell the truth, all while being too blind to see that probably half the products on this website (including those they use) contain "drugs".

Oh...and just for the record, MK is safer than all the high-dose stim products that people use every day, but I bet you have no problem with that because you probably use them!

Personally, I have no issue with anything a supp company puts in their product, so long as it is fully disclosed on the label. Educate, then let people make their own choice. The only thing I have a problem with is hypocrisy.