continued from the thread in Nutraplanet's forum...
that you do not encourage skepticism worries me more than anything...people who prefer blind allegiance to a thoughtful, thorough and critical audience are generally not completely honest, IME...
okay, i guess i will start. i have a damn mountain to climb here...
1) your 221% GH claim: have you established equivalency of your product to exactly 500mg of L-dopa? the clinical study was not done using a mucuna pruriens extract but the actual pharmaceutical, and some marked differences have been identified between the two.
You are right, there are marked differences between the two. Certain alkaloids in MP have actually been shown to have LD increasing effects, leading to higher plasma concentrations of LD than synthetic LD.
Mucuna pruriens in Parkinson's disease: a double blind clinical and pharmacological study.
* Katzenschlager R,
* Evans A,
* Manson A,
* Patsalos PN,
* Ratnaraj N,
* Watt H,
* Timmermann L,
* Van der Giessen R,
* Lees AJ.
National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London, UK.
BACKGROUND: The seed powder of the leguminous plant, Mucuna pruriens has long been used in traditional Ayurvedic Indian medicine for diseases including parkinsonism. We have assessed the clinical effects and levodopa (L-dopa) pharmacokinetics following two different doses of mucuna preparation and compared them with standard L-dopa/carbidopa (LD/CD). METHODS: Eight Parkinson's disease patients with a short duration L-dopa response and on period dyskinesias completed a randomised, controlled, double blind crossover trial. Patients were challenged with single doses of 200/50 mg LD/CD, and 15 and 30 g of mucuna preparation in randomised order at weekly intervals. L-dopa pharmacokinetics were determined, and Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale and tapping speed were obtained at baseline and repeatedly during the 4 h following drug ingestion. Dyskinesias were assessed using modified AIMS and Goetz scales. RESULTS: Compared with standard LD/CD, the 30 g mucuna preparation led to a considerably faster onset of effect (34.6 v 68.5 min; p = 0.021), reflected in shorter latencies to peak L-dopa plasma concentrations. Mean on time was 21.9% (37 min) longer with 30 g mucuna than with LD/CD (p = 0.021); peak L-dopa plasma concentrations were 110% higher and the area under the plasma concentration v time curve (area under curve) was 165.3% larger (p = 0.012). No significant differences in dyskinesias or tolerability occurred. CONCLUSIONS: The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L-dopa might possess advantages over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD. Assessment of long term efficacy and tolerability in a randomised, controlled study is warranted.
Now, obviously, this does not say that MP directly raised endogenous GH production by 221%, I am the first to concede that. However, it does show extremely increased LD concentrations in the bloodstream as opposed to synthetic LD. I realize science is not additive in so far stating this worked in this manner, so this must work as well, I truly do. However, when the MP preparation was raising LD concentrations that much more than synthetic LD itself, and the effects of synthetic LD were displayed above, I think it not too far of a stretch.
Another two studies showing increased effectiveness of MP as opposed to synthetic LD
Beans (Mucuna Pruriens) For Parkinson’s Disease:
An Herbal Alternative
Bala V. Manyam, M.D., NPF Center of Excellence Plummer Movement Disorders Center Department of Neurology
Glenn R. Cryer, Scientific Publications and Biomedical Communications
Scott & White Clinic and Texas A&M University Health Science System College of Medicine
.....To establish how Mucuna would compare to synthetic L-DOPA, experiments were undertaken in animal models of Parkinson’s disease. Two different doses of synthetic L-DOPA and two different doses of Mucuna were administered making sure that the amount of L-DOPA present is the same in Mucuna as was the doses of synthetic L-DOPA. The effects of the drugs were tested using a specially designed instrument called "Rotometer." Dose for dose, Mucuna was two to three times more effective than equivalent amounts of synthetic L-DOPA. This suggests that Mucuna may contain compounds that make L-DOPA function better such as carbidopa, tolcapone (Tasmar), or entacapone (COMTan). It may also suggest that Mucuna independently improve symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. Although quite encouraging, more research is needed to confirm these findings. This work was done at the time when the United States Congress established the Office of Alternative Medicine in the National Institute of Health and the work was one of the first to receive funding for alternative medicine.....
Neuroprotective effects of the antiparkinson drug Mucuna pruriens.
* Manyam BV,
* Dhanasekaran M,
* Hare TA.
Department of Neurology, Health Science Center College of Medicine, Temple, TX 76508, USA.
[email protected]
Mucuna pruriens possesses significantly higher antiparkinson activity compared with levodopa in the 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioned rat model of Parkinson's disease. The present study evaluated the neurorestorative effect of Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the nigrostriatal tract of 6-OHDA lesioned rats. Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro).
Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Earlier studies showed that Mucuna pruriens treatment controls the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. This additional finding of a neurorestorative benefit by Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the degenerating dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra may be due to increased complex-I activity and the presence of NADH and coenzyme Q-10. Copyright (c) 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
PMID: 15478206 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
EDIT: I thought I would add that the average LD concentration is around 2.0% in MP. Given the results posted above (percentages and arbitrary "two to three times more effective) you see that a very small dose of MP is needed in order to be equivalent to 500mg L-DOPA.
2) i dont know where your 53% increase in natural T production claim comes from, but i suspect it was not a study carried out on powerfull itself. i wont ask you to post the study, but some relevant parameters would be helpful - median age? frequency and duration of sampling? size of testing group? placebo controlled? etc etc
The Testosterone increase in PFull is much more of a mediated response than other supps, it comes as a result of the modulation of hormonal intermediates in the production of androgens as opposed to modulating any feedback loop. The main Triterpene Saponins in PFull form precursors to all steroids. As stated above, it does not modulate any HPTA feedback loop, but acts as an intermediate in the production of hormones:
Pfaffia paniculata-induced changes in plasma estradiol-17beta, progesterone and testosterone levels in mice.
* Oshima M,
* Gu Y.
Graduate School of Medical Imaging, Suzuka University of Medical Science, 1001-1 Kishioka-cho, Suzuka-shi, Mie 510-0293, Japan.
The present study undertook chemical analysis of components of Pfaffia paniculata roots. In addition, an animal experiment was conducted in which mice had ad libitum access to water enriched with powdered P. paniculata root for 30 days. Changes in plasma concentrations of estradiol-17beta and progesterone in female mice and of testosterone in male mice were ascertained. The results revealed that P. paniculata roots contain two types of phytosteroids, beta-sitosterol and stigmasterol, in addition to other compounds such as pfaffic acid, allantoin, saponins, beta-sitosteryl-beta-D-glucoside, and stigmasteryl-beta-D-glucoside. Regarding changes in plasma concentrations of hormones, levels of the sex hormones estradiol-17beta, progesterone and testosterone were clearly higher for mice that drank P. paniculata root-enriched water than for mice that drank plain water. Powdered P. paniculata root is easily dissolved in feed or water, and as no adverse reactions were seen in mice within 30 days of oral intake, consumption of P. paniculata for long periods of time appears safe.
PMID: 14967943 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
This obviously is not a 53% increase, as the % increase was not stated. I am just rather busy and found this for the time being on my comp, in order to satiate you as you seem, and rightfully so, pressed for some answers. Stigmasterol, which is heavily present in PFull, is not a smoke and mirrors compound, it does have testosterone raising ability and I will try to dig up some studies with actual % increases for you.
3) how exactly do you qualify this claim: "Your unit will be engorged with blood, leading to increased size and pleasure!"? if you could show...i dunno, arginase inhibition, PDE5 inhibition or even increased NO i might let it slide.
I cannot answer that.
4) any research to back this one up: "Helps restore natural hormonal production after a cycle of steroids or pro-hormones."?
See answer to number two.
Same Old, you are an intelligent man obviously, so I know you are not going to swallow what I say whole and I respect that. I posted these merely to display that it is not BS. I have to go at this point, but I will attempt to provide more quantifiable answers in terms of PFull's testosterone increasing ability, as one study showing no % is not enough and I know this. In the mean time, I would encourage you to do some research on MPP, and Triterpene Saponins (and Stigmasterol), if you have not already. I hope some of the answers were somewhat satisfying.