T-Nation: The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths

[The Godfather]

Hi Guys

I just read an interesting article by Dave Barr regarding post-workout nutrition and him attempting to apply Tipton
and other recent research to try and optimise pre and post workout nutrition.

I know that people will disagree with him regarding his recommendation of using high GI carbs which I know has been argued
against on here repeatedly but if we put that to one side, what are people's opinions about the points made?

I have read the research regarding the multiple shakes post-workout and their benefits but do people think that will pan out in reality?
Linky: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=6695E4DE6E4D013D3C577F1D45C84B4E.hydra?id=659666

Thanks

 

[Nutz]

I found this very intresting! here is the crux of it...

Ten Take Home Points

—glycogen restoration is all too easy to achieve and may not be as critical as once thought

—protein synthesis needs to be the focus of our recovery intervention

—pre-workout meals actually enhance muscle blood flow and nutrient delivery during exercise

—pre-workout meals, nocturnal feeding, and multiple post workout drinks are more beneficial than a single post workout drink

—the "post workout window" lasts at least 24 hours

—consuming a protein shake immediately after training hinders optimal results

—strength training acutely enhances insulin sensitivity for at least 24 hours

—whey protein is generally only moderate speed, while whey hydrolysate and pure amino acids are "fast"

—antioxidants taken after exercise may increase muscle damage and delay recovery

—aspirin and ibuprofen can prevent the exercise-induced elevation in muscle protein synthesis thus hindering growth and prolonging recovery

Basically nutrition wise they are saying take (in order of preference) EAA (esential amino acids) or BCAA ( branch chain amino acids) or whey protein hydrolysate right before work out with some carbs. some Eaa or BCaa in with your workout isotonic energy drink and then top it off with /two/ whey hydrolysate shakes with carbs, one and two hours after workout. yup. not straight after.

that sound right?

its diffrent to current thinking but the research is there and could be intresting to try! what do you think guys?

 

[DieTrying]

There are a lot of people that could argue some of those points.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Some people have been saying these things for years, especially this one:

"—glycogen restoration is all too easy to achieve and may not be as critical as once thought"

Tell David Barr he is late for the party and he certainly isn't causing any revolution.

He also uses too many shakes where whole foods would be more optimal.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

FAQ: If we don’t care about glycogen, then why would we use high glycemic carbs post workout?

A: Don’t forget that the main goal is to maximize protein synthesis, which is likely accomplished using quickly absorbed carbohydrates and greatly elevating insulin.


He is wrong about that one, but saying otherwise wouldn't look so good for the Surge they push.

He bascially contradicts himself by stating amino acids are the key to protein synthesis (welcome to the party David), states glycogen restoration isn't as important yet still pushes high GI. Wonder why?

 

[Nutz]

indeed. I think they are advocating two shakes in order to get two spikes of increased nitrogen retention. I would logically think that whole food would be better two hours after exercise. but without seeing studies I cant say.

Whats your recomendation for ammounts of protien / carbs pre / post workout bobo?

it would be good to see some numbers from people with strong opinions on this, i.e. xg protein xg dextrose xg matodextrin for a PWO and pre workout mix.

Surge, unsurprisingly whats recommended here, is about 45g of maltodextrin and 25g of whey hydrolysate, which seems about the right ratio if a little low for an 'average BB' 200lbs or so. I'm skeptical if thats enough nutrients for the two meals immediately post workout?

Xtend, ice etc: contain about 10g of eea and Vendetta's writeup suggests about 30g of 75/25 dextrose/fuctose and 15g BCAA. this suggest that would be ideal pre workout with possibly more added to a during workout drink?

this is all quite pedantic of course, but I think its nice to see usable numbers rather than BCAA's are good ect: and I think you guys are like minded

I'm defiantly interested in experimenting with a BCAA or EEA mix especially now there available in bulk. as for changing my post workout, well, I'm gonna try waiting an hour for my shake then having a meal an hour after that and see what it brings.

 

[Nutz]

Yeah, they even basically say you need EAA or BCAA to get maximum benifit, oh but our hydrolysate is good too! surely the same effect would be given by taking straight whey soon after worout as similar nutrients would reach the muscle at the same time as a later meal of a quicker absorbing amino source?


what do you usually push for Post? im guessing whole food or possibly maltodextrin?

I like the idea of BCAA's espacially it seems to make sense, the leaving post workout till an hour after is the most alien thing but seems to be backed with studys. Id like to know what the meals / shakes in the studys actually were.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

indeed. I think they are advocating two shakes in order to get two spikes of increased nitrogen retention. I would logically think that whole food would be better two hours after exercise. but without seeing studies I cant say.

Whats your take on PW bobo?

it would be good to see some numbers from people with strong opinions on this, i.e. xg protein xg dextrose xg matodextrin for a PWO and pre workout mix.

Surge, unsurprisingly whats recommended here, is about 45g of maltodextrin and 25g of whey hydrolysate, which seems about the right ratio if a little low for an 'average BB' 200lbs or so. I'm skeptical if thats enough nutrients for the two meals immediately post workout?

Xtend, ice etc: contain about 10g of BCAA and Vendetta's writeup suggests about 30g of 75/25 dextrose/fuctose. this suggest that would be ideal pre workout with possibly more added to a during workout drink?

this is all quite pedantic of course, but I think its nice to see usable numbers rather than BCAA's are good ect: and I think you guys are like minded

I'm defiantly interested in experimenting with a BCAA or EEA mix especially now there available in bulk. as for changing my post workout, well, I'm gonna try waiting an hour for my shake then having a meal an hour after that and see what it brings.

Positive nitrogen rentention isn't something that occurs within a short peroid of time. Its achieved with adequate amounts of calories/protein over a longer period of time.

My stance has been posted a bunch of times.

Surge is just another high GI formula backed up with studies taken out of context.

BCAA/EAA have always shows positive results so its nothing new at all. ICE is a great product.

I would never wait an hour after exercise. 10-15 minutes max.

You want the best results? Create a diet based on a steady of stream of nutrients at all points within the day, only increasing absortion rates (by ingesting faster absorbing proteins) in and around exercise to compensate for the increased energy expenditure. If you have achieve this there is absolutely no need to creat conditions of high and erratic insulin levels.

 

[Nutz]

thanks, seems to make sense. Ive never really notised much about BCAA EAA before this article, so it did bring them to my attention but I have read in searches a lot about it being a fairly old idea.

edit: little off topic but even without mixing bulk BCAA + carbs yourself you can get a 2lb vendette copy from trueprotein.com for $15.52 (vesus $30)
by doing about 40%dextrose 40%frutose and 35% BCAA powder. though I hear BCAA powder is nasty, thats what flavour sachets or crystal light is for though I guess

 

[DieTrying]

thanks, seems to make sense. Ive never really notised much about BCAA EAA before this article, so it did bring them to my attention but I have read in searches a lot about it being a fairly old idea.

edit: little off topic but even without mixing bulk BCAA + carbs yourself you can get a 2lb vendette copy from trueprotein.com for $15.52 (vesus $30)
by doing about 40%dextrose 40%frutose and 35% BCAA powder. though I hear BCAA powder is nasty, thats what flavour sachets or crystal light is for though I guess

:frustrate

 

[Nutz]

lol, are you complaining about my maths ( yeah it needs to be 40%25%35% or thereabouts) or the high GI carbs? its a workout drink so im thinking high GI is what we want ( and this is /exactly/ what vendette gives you sugar and BCAA wise ) or would malto be a better option?

yes you could use oats, but im not hardcore enough to sip oats and BCAA while lifting or running maybe some are.

 

[Beowulf]

I think high gi is ok during the workout, but should be avoided before and after. Hopefully the man himself will chime in.

 

[Nitrox]

Surge is just another high GI formula backed up with studies taken out of context.

Good call. I used to read T-mag a lot. On the surface their info looks scientific and supported but ultimately it's just manipulated and presented to sell their cheese.

You want the best results? Create a diet based on a steady of stream of nutrients at all points within the day, only increasing absortion rates (by ingesting faster absorbing proteins) in and around exercise to compensate for the increased energy expenditure. If you have achieve this there is absolutely no need to creat conditions of high and erratic insulin levels.

Amen, Bobo you should put this in your sig. Hell, start a cult and have ppl recite this every night before bed.

 

[The Godfather]

Yeah guys I know that T-Nation is just made up of articles that are designed to sell Biotest products (although I must
say they occassionally get some quite good training articles) but I thought that this brought up some interesting (and
quite controversial) points.

Xtend and ICE only contain BCAAs as far as I know but the studies seem to use EAAs to get the effects they report.

Does anyone know of a good quality EAA product or if not are bulk powders the way to go?

Can't the BCAA/EAA insulin stimiluation be enough anyway IF an insulin spike is optimal for amino delivery post-workout?

 

[Magickk]

I think Bobo should be required to post on here every 30 minutes so I could "go to school" whenever I wanted and there always be new content...

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Does anyone know of a good quality EAA product or if not are bulk powders the way to go?

I think ergo just came out with one. It's called all on one

 

[Phoenix rising]

quote "You want the best results? Create a diet based on a steady of stream of nutrients at all points within the day, only increasing absortion rates (by ingesting faster absorbing proteins) in and around exercise to compensate for the increased energy expenditure. If you have achieve this there is absolutely no need to creat conditions of high and erratic insulin levels. " end quote

I agree 100% with Bobo. I think in the long run it would be much healhier to avod high insulin spikes but hey thats just my 2 cents worth.

 

[jhferry]

^
So what do you do post workout? Just make sure your next following meal is easily absorbed?

 

[DieTrying]

^
So what do you do post workout? Just make sure your next following meal is easily absorbed?

You want fast absorbing aminos, not carbs. Whey and/or milk is perfect.