ATD FOR PCT?

[tb_06]

I just read on a different forum that atd should not be taken for pct? But it was the first time that I have read that. I want to get your guys' opinions on this matter bc I'm sure everyone here is more knowledgable than anywhere else. thanks

 

[tb_06]

bump

 

[okboy63]

I just read on a different forum that atd should not be taken for pct? But it was the first time that I have read that. I want to get your guys' opinions on this matter bc I'm sure everyone here is more knowledgable than anywhere else. thanks

Can you post a link to that ?
Everybody and there dog takes it for PCT(RXT, Uhotter), some take a small dose during cycle.
What was there reasoning for not taking it PCT ?

 

[Beelzebub]

best PCT for me was:

rebound
3 caps -10days
2 caps- 10days
1 cap - 10 days

lean extreme
3 caps throughout

however, i would always ALWAYS keep nolva on hand.

 

[superset2]

I just read on a different forum that atd should not be taken for pct? But it was the first time that I have read that. I want to get your guys' opinions on this matter bc I'm sure everyone here is more knowledgable than anywhere else. thanks

it was because BigCat thinks that an ATD would increase one's chance for delayed gyno...with his reasoning behind the statement of course

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I'm in my second week of my second pct with atd. and I agree I have retained the most weight pct with atd. you might read up in the pct forum

 

[tb_06]

Can you post a link to that ?
Everybody and there dog takes it for PCT(RXT, Uhotter), some take a small dose during cycle.
What was there reasoning for not taking it PCT ?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=669011&highlight=ATD
and
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=672056&highlight=ATD

 

[okboy63]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=669011&highlight=ATD
and
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=672056&highlight=ATD

That all seems pretty deep but it's also not a joke either.
There are some people on there who know there stuff I think. Get's me thinking. Hopefully some heavy hitters from around here can chime in. Dr D, Bobo someone from ALRI etc. The thread still seems to be going on over there.
w_llewellyn seems to advocate this as well

 

[tb_06]

That all seems pretty deep but it's also not a joke either.
There are some people on there who know there stuff I think. Get's me thinking. Hopefully some heavy hitters from around here can chime in. Dr D, Bobo someone from ALRI etc. The thread still seems to be going on over there.
w_llewellyn seems to advocate this as well

yeah man, that's why i came over here. I think sometimes stuff isn't taken serisouly enough, and sometimes people don't even know when they are talking about, they just think they do

 

[jminis]

I've used Uhotter the last two PCT's and they went great. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't use it post cylce. As for the delayed gyno, it can be avoided as long as you taper the dose as you should with any PCT med.

 

[wideguy]

WTF? I was under the impression that atd was great for pct. It seemed to work really well too. Let me ask this, what negative side affects do we know atd definitely has? THis is assuming it's used for now more then 4 weeks and no more then 75 mgs is used, more like 50. I know about the achy joints and the possible side affects of lowered estrogen levels over a long period of time. Other then that what is there.

I've really been trying to get somewhere on this one, but it seems like it's really uncertain.

 

[tb_06]

WTF? I was under the impression that atd was great for pct. It seemed to work really well too. Let me ask this, what negative side affects do we know atd definitely has? THis is assuming it's used for now more then 4 weeks and no more then 75 mgs is used, more like 50. I know about the achy joints and the possible side affects of lowered estrogen levels over a long period of time. Other then that what is there.

I've really been trying to get somewhere on this one, but it seems like it's really uncertain.

yeah man, I hear ya. If no one can give me a definitive answer i'll just hit nolva, fenu, and perfect cycle for pct.. then as kind of a post pct i will use inhibit-e...anymore help is appreciated!

 

[Beelzebub]

the tried and trues, i.e. nolva and clomid, are always good to resort to. i can only comment from my personal experiences as i don't have any blood work or studies to back anything up. and it's like i said, rebound was the best PCT i've had. i was just finishing a 'cutting' cycle of test/tren and had lost 3" on my waist during that time. during PCT with rebound and lean extreme, i was able to take off an additional inch and maintain strength, even increasing strength in some areas.

 

[DR.D]

It's simple: Proper use of Teslac, ATD/RXT and Exemestane are OK during PCT, especially if hCG is involed. Use of enzyme inhibitors like Arimadex or Letro are NOT OK. Those guys over at BB have made some interesting points, and some do not agree with me on this. However, I have read many of the threads and nobody has offered a good, uniform explaination yet IMO.

 

[rhinochaser48]

Swale has commented not long ago by saying he thinks AI's should not be used for PCT. But I don't hold his opinion with anymore merit than the next guy.

Also, read Tricepetor's posts on Avant from a few months back regarding his use of varoius AI's for test boosting. He had baseline bloodwork dating from the previous year, and his test was lower than ever a month or so after stopping his AI experiment. It was theorized by himself and other members that there may be long-term endocrine disruption with their use.

 

[tb_06]

Swale has commented not long ago by saying he thinks AI's should not be used for PCT. But I don't hold his opinion with anymore merit than the next guy.

Also, read Tricepetor's posts on Avant from a few months back regarding his use of varoius AI's for test boosting. He had baseline bloodwork dating from the previous year, and his test was lower than ever a month or so after stopping his AI experiment. It was theorized by himself and other members that there may be long-term endocrine disruption with their use.

hmm.. a lot of ppl have been responding but i'm still up in the air about what to do..

 

[KD1]

My guess is those people were extremly gyno prone to start with and might have gotten it no matter what they did for PCT.

But for comparison's sake, Im going to go the Nolva+Clomid+Retain on my next PCT and compare the effectiveness to my ATD based ones.

 

[okboy63]

Apparently there will be an article in Md next month about this. This is from this thread
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=669724

01-09-2006, 02:20 PM #13 w_llewellyn vbmenu_register("postmenu_8336343", true);
Get me the **** outa here

Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New York
Age: 31
Posts: 1,961
Rep Power: 817

Dr P.

I have decided to do my piece for MD this month on the potential risk of using AI's for PCT. I am reviewing much of the data now. I have 2 questions for you.

1) Would you allow the use of this complied data and graph? I will credit you in the piece, of course. I think it would be a good addition to the article; will help present the issue, and various attempts at PCT, more "visually" for the reader.

2) Have you or anyone else found data an rebound aromatase upregulation? I still haven't seen that, though I have some on ER upregulation, as well as other pathways of E2 action upregulating. Just no aromatase.


I think this is a very important topic.. It needs to be written about and more widely distributed.. AIs are becoming widespread for PCT use. Too available and not enough information..
__________________
www.MolecularNutrition.net
www.BodyofScience.com

Anabolics 2006 - COMING SOON
Last edited by w_llewellyn : 01-09-2006 at 02:22 PM.

 

[tb_06]

Well I just started, at the beginning of this week a 1-test/4ad cycle and my pct WAS going to be Nolva, Fenu, Perfect Cycle, and Inhibit-E.. Should I keep the Inhibit-E out? I can't decide if I should still keep in my my pct if it's even potentially harmful.

 

[bbuild923]

Well I just started, at the beginning of this week a 1-test/4ad cycle and my pct WAS going to be Nolva, Fenu, Perfect Cycle, and Inhibit-E.. Should I keep the Inhibit-E out? I can't decide if I should still keep in my my pct if it's even potentially harmful.

Take everything out except nolva and perfect cycle.

 

[ispymalik]

Well I just started, at the beginning of this week a 1-test/4ad cycle and my pct WAS going to be Nolva, Fenu, Perfect Cycle, and Inhibit-E.. Should I keep the Inhibit-E out? I can't decide if I should still keep in my my pct if it's even potentially harmful.

If it was me, which it is not.
i would keep it like you have it

from my understanding, the reason they were saying that superdrol was causing delayed gyno. was due to its strong anti-estrogen characteristics + the strong anti estrogen ATD in PCT.
made a kind of fake "recovery" and deylayed gyno due to its extreme upregulated receptors.

since your running 1-Test and 4ad
i dont believe it would have such an affect on the estrogen reciptors.
(am i wrong to assume that 1T and 4ad can both be converted to E.?)

this post was for more of my benefit than yours. becuse im just waiting for someone to prove me wrong.
so post up guys, this topic has got me very intrigued.

 

[tb_06]

Take everything out except nolva and perfect cycle.

well I could keep the fenu, that won't hurt anything. it was just the Inhibit that was up in the air

 

[SJA]

Use of enzyme inhibitors like Arimadex or Letro are NOT OK.

Could you please elaborate on this? I know a lot of old farts who just keep the A-dex going .25 EOD and have not heard of any problems. Maybe I need to be ejumicated here.

 

[tb_06]

If it was me, which it is not.
i would keep it like you have it

from my understanding, the reason they were saying that superdrol was causing delayed gyno. was due to its strong anti-estrogen characteristics + the strong anti estrogen ATD in PCT.
made a kind of fake "recovery" and deylayed gyno due to its extreme upregulated receptors.

since your running 1-Test and 4ad
i dont believe it would have such an affect on the estrogen reciptors.
(am i wrong to assume that 1T and 4ad can both be converted to E.?)

this post was for more of my benefit than yours. becuse im just waiting for someone to prove me wrong.
so post up guys, this topic has got me very intrigued.

help help help! It seems to be a very delicate subject. I've been searching for answers for a couple days now and no one seems to be positive on anything

 

[DR.D]

Could you please elaborate on this? I know a lot of old farts who just keep the A-dex going .25 EOD and have not heard of any problems. Maybe I need to be ejumicated here.

Enzyme inhibitors upregulate aromatase. When you stop using them, the levi breaks and rebound can occur. Steroidal AI's don't do this and ER's are not upregulated. SHBG is not affected either, contrary to what some have said. If the adex works for you, go ahead and go with it though. It looks bad on paper during PCT, but I put more faith in real results these days. Some can probably get away with it where others can't.

 

[SJA]

So would it be prudent for those using it as HRT to stop using it during and post cycle and then resume after you are through with PCT?

 

[Rogue Drone]

SJA, Are you using ATD as HRT? I am, at 1 RXT every 10 days. My thinking was to use a small dose that would keep E lowered but not eliminated and at least moderatley up my T level and to use a small dose to prevent the AR inhibiting action that some have speculated ATD might have.

I've been doing this for 64 days now. My subjective impression, based on testicular size, muscle hardness and emotional response,is that it's working well. I'm way overdue for a blood test, I'll get one next month.

People have been using enzyme inhibitors like Adex and Letro because steroidals haven't been avaliable until now and my reading on these compounds support what D has said, that there's a definite rebound possibility there, and less so with ATD's parent compound, Exemestane. ATD is not exactly Exe, but I'll assume it shares similar characteristics.

If I do another wet cycle, and I probably won't, I think I'll bump the ATD dose to 1 every 3 to 5 days to keep the extra E being produced by the gear in check, then drop back to the 1:10 at PCT and ongoing along with the standard inverse pyramid dosing of Nolva.

Watcha think, D?

 

[SJA]

No....I'm not....but I'm definitely intrigued by your experiment. Do you have baseline numbers prior to your starting? 1:10 sounds awefully light to me....but the proof will be in the bloodwork. I can't wait to see how your tests come out...please.....post your results so that we all can learn from them.

 

[Rogue Drone]

1:10 is in line with the data I've seen on Letro, Adex and Exe. A small dose done every 6 to 15 days may reduce E but not eliminate it and boost T moderatley. Admittedly speculative, until I compare my October and before baselines with a future bloodtest. The only one I have seen data on in males is Letro, the others are effects on E in females at varying doses and scheduling.

I'll post numbers when I have them, it will be soon, I do need to confirm this experiment.

I probably should have put this in the old dudes section initially, huh?

Edit: Just checked my AI folder, I did use Exe data on males in going this route, but it was standard dose and timing data only.

 

[SJA]

yeah....old dude....get back into your section and leave us kids alone

 

[DR.D]

Watcha think, D?

R&D! Where ya been man? I like the idea, but remember that Letro and Adex are longer lived compounds. 1:10 sounds very light. If you wanted to compensate for the shorter half-lives, you may consider 1:7 with Exe and ADT, but I like the idea and it sounds like a good long term plan. Also, synthetic estrogens are so rampant in the environment these days, an infrequent dose of a SERM (like 20mg Nolva every 25 days) might be a good idea as well. I've considered that before.

 

[Rogue Drone]

Hmmm, interesting. The moderate SERM dosing to occupy the receptors along with moderate Aromatase inhibition, the two pronged attack, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts is in line with my overall experience with supplementation.

I have the Upjohn to FDA data on Exe's pharmakenetics, need to dig out that halflife data.

You are absolutley right about the enviromental estrogens, western male fertility has decreased enormously on average over the last few decades due to this and the general lack of physical vigor.

I'll remain the Beast from the East in defiante contrast to you Western Wussies. :twisted:

I'm going to start getting monthly bloodtests again, I need the numbers to properly assess and fine tune this R & D protocol.

 

[-2z-]

Well I just started, at the beginning of this week a 1-test/4ad cycle and my pct WAS going to be Nolva, Fenu, Perfect Cycle, and Inhibit-E.. Should I keep the Inhibit-E out? I can't decide if I should still keep in my my pct if it's even potentially harmful.

I did a 1t/4ad trans cycle last fall and for PCT I used Nolva,Fenugreek and CEE (to keep strength up).
I also started Reduce XT (same as Lean Xtreme) a few days before PCT and ran thru end of pct.
Kept all gains and no sides.
Personally I've never used an AI during pct....but I don't seem to be prone to estro sides either.

 

[sean taylor]

So after a 12wk Test E cycle with SD mixed in the last 3 wks should .5gm of liquidex EOD during PCT not be used?
I read of others doing that and not having any problems but I thought l-dex was used on cycle.

 

[DR.D]

So after a 12wk Test E cycle with SD mixed in the last 3 wks should .5gm of liquidex EOD during PCT not be used?
I read of others doing that and not having any problems but I thought l-dex was used on cycle.

It's not a great idea on paper using enzyme inhibitors like letro of dex during PCT (ATD and other steroidals are alright though IMO) but I too have read that some can do it no problem. I can't recommend it, but it does seem to work for most who try it low dose style.

 

[jeezlouis]

ive never done a cycle but had some gyno pop up to the point i could get fluid out of my nipple.took some rebound for about two weeks it went away.
just my 2cents

 

[poopypants]

Well I just started, at the beginning of this week a 1-test/4ad cycle and my pct WAS going to be Nolva, Fenu, Perfect Cycle, and Inhibit-E.. Should I keep the Inhibit-E out? I can't decide if I should still keep in my my pct if it's even potentially harmful.

well i dont know anything about being ahrmful in ay other way then adding to gyno!!!! i tried using it on PCT with 6 oxo (for ever ago before ATD was publicly available) and i went from slightly puffy nips to hard super sensitive lups bout the size of marbles and ended up getting rid of it with an ATD of all things.... dont know about all this Anti-ATD talk, i think the proof is in the puddin.

 

[THEGEEZ]

hey guys i am on my 5th week of epi dosing at 20/30/30/30/30 .. i have been reading alot about ATD and i am now concerned about my pct ... i have ATD, reversitol v2, and reduce xt on hand .. i jus started week 5 today being the first day .. i am wondering if i should take atd tonight and for the rest of week 5 and also through week 1 of pct.. so thats 2 weeks on atd total at 50 mg .. i am thinking this because i am reading that atd is great for your strength but terrible for your libido .. also during week one and throught the rest of my pct i will take the reduce xt .. then from week 2 on take reversitol and reduce xt .. and save the ATD for in between cycles ?? can you guys please tell me what i should do by tonight before bed so i can take this ATD at least 25 mg .. thanks

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

This is going to be a very dry pct. Epi is an anti estrogen and now you are pct with an AI. A serm would be a good pct for epi. Take lots of fish oil to help lubricate those dry joints.