ATD FOR PCT?
- Thread starter tb_06
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wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
I'm in my second week of my second pct with atd. and I agree I have retained the most weight pct with atd. you might read up in the pct forum
okboy63
Board Supporter
tb_06 said:
That all seems pretty deep but it's also not a joke either.
There are some people on there who know there stuff I think. Get's me thinking. Hopefully some heavy hitters from around here can chime in. Dr D, Bobo someone from ALRI etc. The thread still seems to be going on over there.
w_llewellyn seems to advocate this as well
wideguy
Board Supporter
WTF? I was under the impression that atd was great for pct. It seemed to work really well too. Let me ask this, what negative side affects do we know atd definitely has? THis is assuming it's used for now more then 4 weeks and no more then 75 mgs is used, more like 50. I know about the achy joints and the possible side affects of lowered estrogen levels over a long period of time. Other then that what is there.
I've really been trying to get somewhere on this one, but it seems like it's really uncertain.
I've really been trying to get somewhere on this one, but it seems like it's really uncertain.
Beelzebub
Registered User
the tried and trues, i.e. nolva and clomid, are always good to resort to. i can only comment from my personal experiences as i don't have any blood work or studies to back anything up. and it's like i said, rebound was the best PCT i've had. i was just finishing a 'cutting' cycle of test/tren and had lost 3" on my waist during that time. during PCT with rebound and lean extreme, i was able to take off an additional inch and maintain strength, even increasing strength in some areas.
DR.D
Well-known member
It's simple: Proper use of Teslac, ATD/RXT and Exemestane are OK during PCT, especially if hCG is involed. Use of enzyme inhibitors like Arimadex or Letro are NOT OK. Those guys over at BB have made some interesting points, and some do not agree with me on this. However, I have read many of the threads and nobody has offered a good, uniform explaination yet IMO.
rhinochaser48
Board Supporter
Swale has commented not long ago by saying he thinks AI's should not be used for PCT. But I don't hold his opinion with anymore merit than the next guy.
Also, read Tricepetor's posts on Avant from a few months back regarding his use of varoius AI's for test boosting. He had baseline bloodwork dating from the previous year, and his test was lower than ever a month or so after stopping his AI experiment. It was theorized by himself and other members that there may be long-term endocrine disruption with their use.
Also, read Tricepetor's posts on Avant from a few months back regarding his use of varoius AI's for test boosting. He had baseline bloodwork dating from the previous year, and his test was lower than ever a month or so after stopping his AI experiment. It was theorized by himself and other members that there may be long-term endocrine disruption with their use.
okboy63
Board Supporter
Apparently there will be an article in Md next month about this. This is from this thread
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Dr P.
I have decided to do my piece for MD this month on the potential risk of using AI's for PCT. I am reviewing much of the data now. I have 2 questions for you.
1) Would you allow the use of this complied data and graph? I will credit you in the piece, of course. I think it would be a good addition to the article; will help present the issue, and various attempts at PCT, more "visually" for the reader.
2) Have you or anyone else found data an rebound aromatase upregulation? I still haven't seen that, though I have some on ER upregulation, as well as other pathways of E2 action upregulating. Just no aromatase.
I think this is a very important topic.. It needs to be written about and more widely distributed.. AIs are becoming widespread for PCT use. Too available and not enough information..
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Last edited by w_llewellyn : 01-09-2006 at 02:22 PM.
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Dr P.
I have decided to do my piece for MD this month on the potential risk of using AI's for PCT. I am reviewing much of the data now. I have 2 questions for you.
1) Would you allow the use of this complied data and graph? I will credit you in the piece, of course. I think it would be a good addition to the article; will help present the issue, and various attempts at PCT, more "visually" for the reader.
2) Have you or anyone else found data an rebound aromatase upregulation? I still haven't seen that, though I have some on ER upregulation, as well as other pathways of E2 action upregulating. Just no aromatase.
I think this is a very important topic.. It needs to be written about and more widely distributed.. AIs are becoming widespread for PCT use. Too available and not enough information..
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Last edited by w_llewellyn : 01-09-2006 at 02:22 PM.
ispymalik
New member
tb_06 said:
If it was me, which it is not.
i would keep it like you have it
from my understanding, the reason they were saying that superdrol was causing delayed gyno. was due to its strong anti-estrogen characteristics + the strong anti estrogen ATD in PCT.
made a kind of fake "recovery" and deylayed gyno due to its extreme upregulated receptors.
since your running 1-Test and 4ad
i dont believe it would have such an affect on the estrogen reciptors.
(am i wrong to assume that 1T and 4ad can both be converted to E.?)
this post was for more of my benefit than yours. becuse im just waiting for someone to prove me wrong.
so post up guys, this topic has got me very intrigued.
DR.D
Well-known member
SJA said:
Enzyme inhibitors upregulate aromatase. When you stop using them, the levi breaks and rebound can occur. Steroidal AI's don't do this and ER's are not upregulated. SHBG is not affected either, contrary to what some have said. If the adex works for you, go ahead and go with it though. It looks bad on paper during PCT, but I put more faith in real results these days. Some can probably get away with it where others can't.
Rogue Drone
Well-known member
SJA, Are you using ATD as HRT? I am, at 1 RXT every 10 days. My thinking was to use a small dose that would keep E lowered but not eliminated and at least moderatley up my T level and to use a small dose to prevent the AR inhibiting action that some have speculated ATD might have.
I've been doing this for 64 days now. My subjective impression, based on testicular size, muscle hardness and emotional response,is that it's working well. I'm way overdue for a blood test, I'll get one next month.
People have been using enzyme inhibitors like Adex and Letro because steroidals haven't been avaliable until now and my reading on these compounds support what D has said, that there's a definite rebound possibility there, and less so with ATD's parent compound, Exemestane. ATD is not exactly Exe, but I'll assume it shares similar characteristics.
If I do another wet cycle, and I probably won't, I think I'll bump the ATD dose to 1 every 3 to 5 days to keep the extra E being produced by the gear in check, then drop back to the 1:10 at PCT and ongoing along with the standard inverse pyramid dosing of Nolva.
Watcha think, D?
I've been doing this for 64 days now. My subjective impression, based on testicular size, muscle hardness and emotional response,is that it's working well. I'm way overdue for a blood test, I'll get one next month.
People have been using enzyme inhibitors like Adex and Letro because steroidals haven't been avaliable until now and my reading on these compounds support what D has said, that there's a definite rebound possibility there, and less so with ATD's parent compound, Exemestane. ATD is not exactly Exe, but I'll assume it shares similar characteristics.
If I do another wet cycle, and I probably won't, I think I'll bump the ATD dose to 1 every 3 to 5 days to keep the extra E being produced by the gear in check, then drop back to the 1:10 at PCT and ongoing along with the standard inverse pyramid dosing of Nolva.
Watcha think, D?
SJA
dead sexy wino
No....I'm not....but I'm definitely intrigued by your experiment. Do you have baseline numbers prior to your starting? 1:10 sounds awefully light to me....but the proof will be in the bloodwork. I can't wait to see how your tests come out...please.....post your results so that we all can learn from them.
Rogue Drone
Well-known member
1:10 is in line with the data I've seen on Letro, Adex and Exe. A small dose done every 6 to 15 days may reduce E but not eliminate it and boost T moderatley. Admittedly speculative, until I compare my October and before baselines with a future bloodtest. The only one I have seen data on in males is Letro, the others are effects on E in females at varying doses and scheduling.
I'll post numbers when I have them, it will be soon, I do need to confirm this experiment.
I probably should have put this in the old dudes section initially, huh?
Edit: Just checked my AI folder, I did use Exe data on males in going this route, but it was standard dose and timing data only.
I'll post numbers when I have them, it will be soon, I do need to confirm this experiment.
I probably should have put this in the old dudes section initially, huh?
Edit: Just checked my AI folder, I did use Exe data on males in going this route, but it was standard dose and timing data only.
DR.D
Well-known member
Rogue Drone said:
R&D! Where ya been man? I like the idea, but remember that Letro and Adex are longer lived compounds. 1:10 sounds very light. If you wanted to compensate for the shorter half-lives, you may consider 1:7 with Exe and ADT, but I like the idea and it sounds like a good long term plan. Also, synthetic estrogens are so rampant in the environment these days, an infrequent dose of a SERM (like 20mg Nolva every 25 days) might be a good idea as well. I've considered that before.
Rogue Drone
Well-known member
Hmmm, interesting. The moderate SERM dosing to occupy the receptors along with moderate Aromatase inhibition, the two pronged attack, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts is in line with my overall experience with supplementation.
I have the Upjohn to FDA data on Exe's pharmakenetics, need to dig out that halflife data.
You are absolutley right about the enviromental estrogens, western male fertility has decreased enormously on average over the last few decades due to this and the general lack of physical vigor.
I'll remain the Beast from the East in defiante contrast to you Western Wussies. :twisted:
I'm going to start getting monthly bloodtests again, I need the numbers to properly assess and fine tune this R & D protocol.
I have the Upjohn to FDA data on Exe's pharmakenetics, need to dig out that halflife data.
You are absolutley right about the enviromental estrogens, western male fertility has decreased enormously on average over the last few decades due to this and the general lack of physical vigor.
I'll remain the Beast from the East in defiante contrast to you Western Wussies. :twisted:
I'm going to start getting monthly bloodtests again, I need the numbers to properly assess and fine tune this R & D protocol.
-2z-
Active member
tb_06 said:
I did a 1t/4ad trans cycle last fall and for PCT I used Nolva,Fenugreek and CEE (to keep strength up).
I also started Reduce XT (same as Lean Xtreme) a few days before PCT and ran thru end of pct.
Kept all gains and no sides.
Personally I've never used an AI during pct....but I don't seem to be prone to estro sides either.
sean taylor
West Coast Highland Athlete
So after a 12wk Test E cycle with SD mixed in the last 3 wks should .5gm of liquidex EOD during PCT not be used?
I read of others doing that and not having any problems but I thought l-dex was used on cycle.
I read of others doing that and not having any problems but I thought l-dex was used on cycle.
DR.D
Well-known member
sean taylor said:
It's not a great idea on paper using enzyme inhibitors like letro of dex during PCT (ATD and other steroidals are alright though IMO) but I too have read that some can do it no problem. I can't recommend it, but it does seem to work for most who try it low dose style.
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poopypants
Banned
well i dont know anything about being ahrmful in ay other way then adding to gyno!!!! i tried using it on PCT with 6 oxo (for ever ago before ATD was publicly available) and i went from slightly puffy nips to hard super sensitive lups bout the size of marbles and ended up getting rid of it with an ATD of all things.... dont know about all this Anti-ATD talk, i think the proof is in the puddin.tb_06 said:
THEGEEZ
Active member
hey guys i am on my 5th week of epi dosing at 20/30/30/30/30 .. i have been reading alot about ATD and i am now concerned about my pct ... i have ATD, reversitol v2, and reduce xt on hand .. i jus started week 5 today being the first day .. i am wondering if i should take atd tonight and for the rest of week 5 and also through week 1 of pct.. so thats 2 weeks on atd total at 50 mg .. i am thinking this because i am reading that atd is great for your strength but terrible for your libido .. also during week one and throught the rest of my pct i will take the reduce xt .. then from week 2 on take reversitol and reduce xt .. and save the ATD for in between cycles ?? can you guys please tell me what i should do by tonight before bed so i can take this ATD at least 25 mg .. thanks
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
This is going to be a very dry pct. Epi is an anti estrogen and now you are pct with an AI. A serm would be a good pct for epi. Take lots of fish oil to help lubricate those dry joints.