pyrobatt
Well-known member
- Awards
- 3
Lets talk about Clen/ephedrine as you all know is a choice.The heart problems that come with this and ephedrine are pretty much writen in stone.Those of us who choose to use them usually want fat loss.Lets talk about that and leave the heart discussion out / sides for clen/ec out.
Chances are that if you have used clen/ec you have heard of the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off thing and probably herd of keto and benadryl to extend the cycle.I think this should be followed for the EC stack because I don't like the caffeine.Clen however is a different story for me.My next clen cycle after this bulk will be 6 weeks.(prob next year)
After doing some research I have found some interesting info on keto and uses besides extending the cycle.Keto will be used to extend my clen cycle.
Ketotifen was made popular by its ability to inhibit the down regulation of beta receptors caused by drugs like clenbuterol. Clenbuterol, albuterol, and Ephedrine used to be cycled on and off because they desensitize the various receptors they act on to produce their lipolytic effect. Ketotifen would therefore allow the use of these fat burning drugs for much longer periods.
If youve read up on Clenbuterol, you already know that Benadryl (the anti-histimine) can also be used for this same purpose, and is 10x cheaper and infinitely more available to most people. So why am I bothering to write about Ketotifen at all?
Ketotifen, in medical circles, is also recognized for its ability to lower levels of the cytokine Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), which is a catabolic hormone, and this is a property that Benadryl does not have to my knowledge. TNF-alpha lowers both testosterone and IGF-1 levels (3) (4), and strenuous exercise elevates TNF-alpha levels (5). TNF-alpha has also been shown to increase insulin resistance, which we certainly dont want.
Ketotifen and Weigh Loss
Ketotifen is used by people suffering from wasting diseases partially caused by TNF-alpha. I think, however, its ability to lower TNF-alpha is going to be overshadowed by anabolic effects produced by anabolic steroids. In one study involving AIDS patients, combining Ketotifen and Oxymetholone (Anadrol 50) showed that the Ketotifen didnt add much to the Oxymetholone induced weight gain (1). and not the "Fat - Burning" part, even though Ketotifen is typically used as part of a fat burning cycle including clen. Benadryl is simply too much cheaper and readily available to use Ketotifen in its place with Clen. However, for Post-Cycle-Therapy, Ketotifen and its ability to lower TNF-alpha, is a very valuable tool. You see, Hypogonadism (low testosterone) often accompanies elevated TNF-alpha levels (6), and after a cycle of anabolic steroids, you are going to be in a hypogonadal state, with elevated TNF-alpha. Thus, taking Ketotifen with your PCT is probably a very good idea. I recommend 1-3mgs/day before bed because this stuff will make you pretty drowsy.
References
studies ect )
1:Oxymetholone promotes weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus (HIV-1) infection. Br J Nutr. 1996 Jan;75(1):129-38.
2:Smart T. GMHC Treat Issues. 1995 May;9(5):7-8, 12.
3:Mauduit C, et.al Endocrinology 1998 Jun;139(6):2863-.
4:Lang CH et.al Growth Horm IGF Res 2001 Aug;11(4):250-60.
5edersen BK et. al. Exerc Immunol Rev 2001;7:18-31.
6:Malkin CJ et.al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jul;89(7):3313-8.
Although Benadryl is simply too much cheaper and readily available to use Ketotifen in its place with Clen.I have some money to waste so I will be spending it on that when my long bulk(next year) is finished.
Its primary side effects seem to be temporary drowsiness, dry mouth,(and other mucuos membranes) appetite stimulation and weight gain. Which will be somewhat of a non issue with clen ran along side it.
Some confusion about the dosage for keto is out there aswell.Let me try and clarify
Weeks 1-2 taper up to a tolerable level 20mcg increments(least sides should end up at 140-180(high end) for men and 80-120 for females)Start tappering down mid day 9 if your doing 2 weeks without keto
Weeks 2-6 (or 8 but thats a bit much for this guy)Keep at your tolerable level and lower or increase depending on how it gose.Add 1 mg of keto before bed everyday at this point untill you are off the cycle.
Everyone is different and should dose accordingly.Don't do 200mcgs of clen because Mr.Bob Rimmington Johnson the 3rd is.His body can handle it,Play with the dosage and find the one for you.
EC DOSEAGE!(safest way)
Dosing based on 20 or 25 mg ephedrine HCL pills (or ephedrine sulfate)
Note: 1E = 20 or 25 mg ephedrine
and .5E = 10 or 12.5 mg ephedrine
I am assuming caffeine tablets of 200 mg. So 1C = 200 mg, .5C = 100 mg
The caffeine tablets do not break in half well, approximate is fine.
A pill splitter works well on the ephedrine (can get at any pharmacy).
Day 1 - This day you would just take 1 dose to test whether you are hypersensitive to ephedrine (very rare). The dose will be .5E .5C
- symptoms of fast heart rate, and slight jitters are typical - like the feeling you get from having a lot of coffee.
Day 2-3 - You take 3 doses of .5 E .5C minimum 4 hours apart. I suggest keeping it so your last dose is at least 6 hours away from your bedtime.
Day 4-7 - Your dosing will be 1E 1C, .5E .5C, .5E .5C That is, you take full dose for your first dose only.
Day 8-14 - 1E 1C, 1E 1C, .5E .5C
pill count?:76 e/c if using the formula above.
STOP HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE KETO OR BENADRYL
day 15 and on-1E 1Cx3 a day
BENADRYL 50 mg per night or keto 1mg per night
Dose them 4 hours apart as mentioned.You can add yohimbine at 2.5 mg through out.If you like the asprin get bayer low dose asprin(81 mg) and take with every EC dosage.
I hope this guide was helpful or atleast had a little info of use.Also please share your experiences with keto so we can hear about some results.
Chances are that if you have used clen/ec you have heard of the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off thing and probably herd of keto and benadryl to extend the cycle.I think this should be followed for the EC stack because I don't like the caffeine.Clen however is a different story for me.My next clen cycle after this bulk will be 6 weeks.(prob next year)
After doing some research I have found some interesting info on keto and uses besides extending the cycle.Keto will be used to extend my clen cycle.
Ketotifen was made popular by its ability to inhibit the down regulation of beta receptors caused by drugs like clenbuterol. Clenbuterol, albuterol, and Ephedrine used to be cycled on and off because they desensitize the various receptors they act on to produce their lipolytic effect. Ketotifen would therefore allow the use of these fat burning drugs for much longer periods.
If youve read up on Clenbuterol, you already know that Benadryl (the anti-histimine) can also be used for this same purpose, and is 10x cheaper and infinitely more available to most people. So why am I bothering to write about Ketotifen at all?
Ketotifen, in medical circles, is also recognized for its ability to lower levels of the cytokine Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), which is a catabolic hormone, and this is a property that Benadryl does not have to my knowledge. TNF-alpha lowers both testosterone and IGF-1 levels (3) (4), and strenuous exercise elevates TNF-alpha levels (5). TNF-alpha has also been shown to increase insulin resistance, which we certainly dont want.
Ketotifen and Weigh Loss
Ketotifen is used by people suffering from wasting diseases partially caused by TNF-alpha. I think, however, its ability to lower TNF-alpha is going to be overshadowed by anabolic effects produced by anabolic steroids. In one study involving AIDS patients, combining Ketotifen and Oxymetholone (Anadrol 50) showed that the Ketotifen didnt add much to the Oxymetholone induced weight gain (1). and not the "Fat - Burning" part, even though Ketotifen is typically used as part of a fat burning cycle including clen. Benadryl is simply too much cheaper and readily available to use Ketotifen in its place with Clen. However, for Post-Cycle-Therapy, Ketotifen and its ability to lower TNF-alpha, is a very valuable tool. You see, Hypogonadism (low testosterone) often accompanies elevated TNF-alpha levels (6), and after a cycle of anabolic steroids, you are going to be in a hypogonadal state, with elevated TNF-alpha. Thus, taking Ketotifen with your PCT is probably a very good idea. I recommend 1-3mgs/day before bed because this stuff will make you pretty drowsy.
References
studies ect )1:Oxymetholone promotes weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus (HIV-1) infection. Br J Nutr. 1996 Jan;75(1):129-38.
2:Smart T. GMHC Treat Issues. 1995 May;9(5):7-8, 12.
3:Mauduit C, et.al Endocrinology 1998 Jun;139(6):2863-.
4:Lang CH et.al Growth Horm IGF Res 2001 Aug;11(4):250-60.
5
edersen BK et. al. Exerc Immunol Rev 2001;7:18-31.6:Malkin CJ et.al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jul;89(7):3313-8.
Although Benadryl is simply too much cheaper and readily available to use Ketotifen in its place with Clen.I have some money to waste so I will be spending it on that when my long bulk(next year) is finished.
Its primary side effects seem to be temporary drowsiness, dry mouth,(and other mucuos membranes) appetite stimulation and weight gain. Which will be somewhat of a non issue with clen ran along side it.
Some confusion about the dosage for keto is out there aswell.Let me try and clarify
Weeks 1-2 taper up to a tolerable level 20mcg increments(least sides should end up at 140-180(high end) for men and 80-120 for females)Start tappering down mid day 9 if your doing 2 weeks without keto
Weeks 2-6 (or 8 but thats a bit much for this guy)Keep at your tolerable level and lower or increase depending on how it gose.Add 1 mg of keto before bed everyday at this point untill you are off the cycle.
Everyone is different and should dose accordingly.Don't do 200mcgs of clen because Mr.Bob Rimmington Johnson the 3rd is.His body can handle it,Play with the dosage and find the one for you.
EC DOSEAGE!(safest way)
Dosing based on 20 or 25 mg ephedrine HCL pills (or ephedrine sulfate)
Note: 1E = 20 or 25 mg ephedrine
and .5E = 10 or 12.5 mg ephedrine
I am assuming caffeine tablets of 200 mg. So 1C = 200 mg, .5C = 100 mg
The caffeine tablets do not break in half well, approximate is fine.
A pill splitter works well on the ephedrine (can get at any pharmacy).
Day 1 - This day you would just take 1 dose to test whether you are hypersensitive to ephedrine (very rare). The dose will be .5E .5C
- symptoms of fast heart rate, and slight jitters are typical - like the feeling you get from having a lot of coffee.
Day 2-3 - You take 3 doses of .5 E .5C minimum 4 hours apart. I suggest keeping it so your last dose is at least 6 hours away from your bedtime.
Day 4-7 - Your dosing will be 1E 1C, .5E .5C, .5E .5C That is, you take full dose for your first dose only.
Day 8-14 - 1E 1C, 1E 1C, .5E .5C
pill count?:76 e/c if using the formula above.
STOP HERE IF YOU DON'T HAVE KETO OR BENADRYL
day 15 and on-1E 1Cx3 a day
BENADRYL 50 mg per night or keto 1mg per night
Dose them 4 hours apart as mentioned.You can add yohimbine at 2.5 mg through out.If you like the asprin get bayer low dose asprin(81 mg) and take with every EC dosage.
I hope this guide was helpful or atleast had a little info of use.Also please share your experiences with keto so we can hear about some results.
