2nd gear !!!! ??? by AN
- 03-15-2009, 03:11 PM
- 03-15-2009, 03:37 PM
use a serm with everything....including the one....better safe than sorry....and no second gear is not a serm
03-15-2009, 04:51 PM
03-15-2009, 04:56 PM
03-15-2009, 05:54 PM
The SERM or no SERM is an ongoing debate that will never end. It is a personal choice. Serms have really only been incorperated into body building for the last 9ish years I think. Yet steroids have been used since the 50's something tells me you are ok without them if people did without em for 50 years.... depends I think on Age, body, nautral ability to recover, etc.
Did Arnold have serms?
03-15-2009, 05:58 PM
03-15-2009, 08:59 PM
03-15-2009, 09:20 PM
Theres plenty of arguments pro and con, but particularly for short cycles of orals I see it as not being particularly necessary. The main time it would be valuable is in a long cycle of something that doesn't aromatize. So say a long 1-T cycle (not the transdermal, original 1-T). On that cycle, by the 2nd-3rd week of a 6-8 week cycle, your test production (and so also your estrogen production) would be shut down, and your estrogen receptors would have a month to upregulate. Then at pct if your natural testosterone came back fast and hard, thered be an estrogen surge as well, that a SERM would protect against gyno from.
But on a 3 week superdrol cycle or 4 week havoc cycle or most of the other common orals here? you are lucky if you are hitting significant shutdown by the last week of the cycle, so the receptors dont have significant time without estrogen to upregulate.
I think more than half of the gyno claims for all the non-aromatizing compounds available today are guys who had pubertal gyno but never realized it, and their cycles just made it "pop"
03-15-2009, 09:22 PM
03-15-2009, 09:34 PM
I know, its like a religious war at times
So lemee be clear If people want to use SERMs that is fine. However there is little evidence of their necessity for short oral cycles. So when people are told "you have to use a SERM" they should understand the risks that a SERM entails (both direct and indirect) and should also understand the additional risk associated with a research chem if they aren't buying prescription SERMs. They also need to understand that Nolvadex, the first SERM available wasn't available till 1998. So NOBODY used a SERM before that, as they didn't exist.
Is there less chance of gyno when using a SERM - yes.
Is there much chance of gyno on short oral cycles without gyno - No.
Are there risks to using SERMS - yes
So decide for yourself, don't be a lemming following either side just because people say you have to or don't need to. Do some research, look at studies, look at side effects. And if you are thinking about a research chem SERM, consider the additional risks - contamination, misdosing, illegal possession. And decide for yourself
03-16-2009, 01:08 AM
BTW, it shouldnt be looked at as a war. It is a fence, with members on both sides. No reason for people to get as emotional as some of them do. Do it your way, state your case, give your advice, and let it be. I mean dang...its not even your body. I learned a long time ago with someone I cared deeply for...even if they want to do something stupid...you have to let them sometimes, other words your just going to fight, hurt each other, or look like an idiot. Though in the case of SERM or not to SERM, its not really stupid to go either route, but I do believe the route should in some sense depend on the compound.
Why not just inject hgh straight into your nuts for safety....jeeze.... lol.
03-16-2009, 05:03 PM
you also have to realize that a lot of what we know today about steroids is because of the mistakes that were made in the past....all those bb'ers that died in the 80's and 90's paved the way for the advanced techniques that we have tday....i think the lack of effective pct's were one of those mistakes....whether your game is otc or serms there are bases that definately need to be covered and it wasnt until the last 20 years or so that these things were even thought about....so please do not use the stupidity or lack of knowledge of the bb'ers in the past as a reason not to pct with the most effective products possible.....whatever you feel those are...
edit: this rambling post actually had a point somewhere in there....i know that you are toeing a line with your postition here easy...but a lot of guys would read this thread and wonder why they need a pct in the first place since no one did it before 1998
03-16-2009, 07:11 PM
the reason i posted this thread was because i noticed alot of people using The new PH THE ONE said 2nd gear is sufficient for pct ............. im not sure but maybe even the company said it aswell .............................. . ?????????????
so is the truth that 2nd gear is crap and that you still need a serm im all for serms better safe then sorry but i wanted to know about the claims of 2nd gear and the truth about it ...
03-16-2009, 07:26 PM
well im not saying 2nd gear is crap....but it is not a serm.....you need to do your own research and then you can make an informed decision on whether or not you want to use a serm...just remember that the only people that have actually completed a run of this product so far are affiliated with app nut....and as much as i respect easy's opinion id like to see a lot more logs before i would ever recomend not using a serm.....
03-16-2009, 08:09 PM
Ive run superdrol without a SERM too so its all about what you think, and what you think of risk vs reward of a SERM vs no SERM. Now do I think you should have access to a SERM in case gyno symptoms start? for sure. but i don't really see the need part for every cycle.
03-16-2009, 08:10 PM
Major Note: I have been studying anabolics, and studying cycles, PCT's, SERMS, different compounds, watched logs, and all around been waiting since January of last year. So I have been prepping my knowledge of what I am gona do for 14 months, and By the time I start it will have been 15-16 months....
It is worth the time to study, there is really no rush.
03-16-2009, 08:25 PM
hey easy while i have you here can you tell me what 2nd gear actually is.....all i can find is its a 6-bromo product....but that post wasnt even by an appnut rep so.....
03-16-2009, 08:27 PM
03-16-2009, 08:32 PM
i am gonna use "the one" late april this year to kick-start a test prop/eq cycle and possibly adding trenbolone in towards the end, i will have nolva, arimedex on hand for my PCT, what should i do with the 2nd Gear?? Should i throw it in for my PCT?? I am also a big fan of Diesel Hardcore Test as i am on that alone right now and have really felt my test levels go up.
03-16-2009, 08:34 PM
I have been an advocate of using a SERM regardless of the situation in the past; however, recent studies and research that I am involved in indicates that a SERM may in fact do more harm to your body than good. It really comes down to the user, and their medical history. I am leaning toward a more stable and healthier way of bouncing back after a cycle. Certain ingredients and products that are out right now seem to get the job done for most people's cycles that I have followed. ApNut's 2nd Gear looks solid on paper; hopefully when it's all said and done, it lives up to be a great product.
Life is user dependant, so why would hormone cycles be different?
03-16-2009, 08:34 PM
03-16-2009, 09:35 PM
Most of the loggers are using 2nd gear. So we'll be able to see pretty soon.
So far we only have Don's bloods which indicate little suprression. If that ends up being the norm, then a SERM could possibly be overkill?
It would seem slight liver toxicity and elevated cholesterol are bigger concerns that hormonal rebounds on this product. And those dont seem to be severe at all. If anyone is concerned about using an otc pct then we can wait and see how the loggers do.
03-16-2009, 09:39 PM
03-16-2009, 09:53 PM
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