Wobmarvels let's go natural for a while (almost) and see what happens log.

hairygrandpa

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Any idea why the headache?
 
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I much prefer using GDA plus sugary carbs for preworkouts at the moment. I've ordered a pump product too.
 
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Taking today off, last week I worked shoulders but I feel it hampered my chest workout the following day. So tomorrow will be chest with at least some side laterals thrown in at the end for shoulders.
 
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Chest day

Barbell bench press
Bar X 20
45kg X 20
65kg X 12
80kg X 8,6,5 dropset 65kg X 5 45kg X 17

Bodyweight dips X 20,16,12

Dumbell flyes

17.5kg X 20
22.5kg X 12,12,10

Dumbell side laterals

12.5kg x 12,12,12

Did less warm up sets to get to my maximum bench faster and get another couple of sets in at heavier weight.

Moved dips to second exercise, no triceps failure like last time helped by rest day yesterday.

Flyes last, felt strong.
 
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Couple of additions to my supplement cupboard
IMG_20190516_130153.jpeg
 
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Annoyingly turned up too late to try the pump product today.
 
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Supposed to be a back day today but I've missed my "kids not around" window. Will still try and get it in this afternoon.
 
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Back day

Wide grip bodyweight pullups, slow tempo with dead hang every rep.

1,3,7,6,6

Narrow grip bodyweight chin ups

12,12,12

Over hand shoulder width barbell rows

35kg X 20
55kg X 15
65kg X 12,12

Close grip ez bar underhand grip rows

40kg X 20,20,20

Focus wasn't what it could have been due to my 5 year old Oliver being in the room and insisting on playing Ghostbusters between sets. Honestly though I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
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So will be stopping the GDA from today because this

Berberine shows some effects in people with Type 2 Diabetes through activation of AMPK, but no research in healthy, non-diabetic individuals is seen

Cinnamon extract shows inconclusive research, even in people with Type 2 Diabetes. According to the Cochrane Review by Leach and Kumar (2011), the literature does not show an improvement in fasting blood glucose, HbA1C or weight when supplementing with cinnamon extract.

Chromium didn’t seem to have any effects on healthy individuals in regards to glucose tolerance, weight-loss or resistance training, however, there might be a case for it to be beneficial for people with diabetes.

Alpha Lipoic Acid did not show benefits after 4 years of supplementation in 460 diabetics. Its proposed to aid through antioxidant effects, however, a high-quality diet can provide the necessary antioxidant effects.

Banaba leaf extract: The research has not adequately tested its effects; as it was part of a 12-week protocol with a nutrition and training intervention from a full team of experts. Further, it did not alter the glucose-AUC in response to an OGTT. Lastly, it has not been tested in non-diabetic, healthy trained individuals.

Once again, the literature done on people with diabetes cannot be translated to healthy people without diabetes. In Type 1 Diabetes, pancreatic beta cells are permanently damaged by autoimmune antibodies. In Type 2 Diabetes, pancreatic beta cells become exhausted and cannot exert their functions. In both cases, this results in low insulin secretion and consequently, chronically high blood glucose since it cannot be stored effectively. Thus, in these subjects, supplements may be useful as they don’t have one of the most powerful tools to aid in the shuttling of blood glucose.

As a non-diabetic, when you consume a meal that causes a spike in blood glucose, insulin will naturally be secreted and glucose will be shuttled adequately. Further, since you will likely be in a constant state of recovery from training and replenishing glycogen, your body will be highly receptive to the glucose you are consuming.

As a final point, most of the GDAs discussed in this article function through activation of AMPK, which as I have said repeatedly, inhibits muscle protein synthesis. Therefore, coming home from your workout to have a high dosage of these ingredients with your high-carb meal is probably not a great idea for muscle growth.

A lot of debate has been in threads here too just interested if I feel or look different without it.
 
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So since I'm like 3 weeks in I'll go over my cycle.

In before someone says "doses are too low" "your suppressing yourself for little to no gains" " waste of a cycle"

Basically I'm using up stuff j have left from previous cycles but instead of going "all in" and feeling like crap two weeks in with stomach problems and lethargy I'm taking a less is more approach.

So 6 week cycle

Trenadrol 60/60/60/30/30/30

Havoc 10/10/10/20/20/30

Cardarine 20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20

Clomid 0/0/0/0/0/0/50/25/25/12.5

Will possibly run mk through pct too and all through my "off" time.

Already about to start week 4 and feel good. Energy levels great, support wise I'm using electrolytes and taurine for back pumps and fish oils but no cycle support as such. Feel like I did when I ran my first cycle of H-DROL. Strength good, recovery great, back pumps.

Didn't want to make a big deal of the cycle because I'm not expecting to gain a huge amount from it just curious if it would have any positive effects without making me feel like my guts are chewed up half way through. Last time I ran this it was at slightly higher dose with trest and I didn't feel great by the end and that was with support supps.
 
hairygrandpa

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There goes the "let's go natural for a while" part. :)
 
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There goes the "let's go natural for a while" part. :)
Yeah, I was pretty honest about it though, mentioned it a few weeks ago (without saying what it was) and did change the title of my thread. Just didn't want to make a big deal out of it cos it's a very light cycle. Curious to see what it does, l like how I'm looking and feeling just now. Looking leaner in the midsection but still weigh 190lbs. Could just be a placebo cycle but f*ck it, if it gets the job done.
 
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Yeah, I was pretty honest about it though, mentioned it a few weeks ago (without saying what it was) and did change the title of my thread. Just didn't want to make a big deal out of it cos it's a very light cycle. Curious to see what it does, l like how I'm looking and feeling just now. Looking leaner in the midsection but still weigh 190lbs. Could just be a placebo cycle but f*ck it, if it gets the job done.
I gonna tell your mom.
:)
Trenadrol, what is it? Like Trenavar? Precursor to tren -or something?
 
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I gonna tell your mom.
:)
Trenadrol, what is it? Like Trenavar? Precursor to tren -or something?
It's a PH to dienolone. Non methylated it's supposed to have a very poor conversion rate and had been discontinued by fusion labs now in favour of a topical version called liquidien.

"Despite similarities drawn between Dienolone and Trenbolone, anecdotal feedback indicates the former being far more tolerable in comparison - lacking reported side-effects: insomnia, irritability, aggression, night sweats, “tren cough,” etc. Such impractical properties are suspected to be mediated by the 11-ene component of Trenbolone's structure, which is absent in Dienolone's construct. Also notable is that the two display a strong disparity in anabolic-androgenic ratios with Dienolone favoring a greater anabolic trait. This difference is likely a direct contributor to aforementioned side-effects. Mild it is not, but as a less-harsh alternative to its chemical cousin, Dienolone offers comparable performance and aesthetic benefits without the discomfort."
 
hairygrandpa

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With other words: Liquidien is "THE sh1t". :)
 
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Yeah to be honest I like how I feel on the "underdosed, poorly converted" trenadrol caps so I may get some liquidien for further down the line. I honestly think it was the trest that had me feeling like crap last cycle.
 
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Video of the day!!


The last minute about the abs is golden.
 
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So leg day... My excuse of the day being that I had little time so ditched the straight legged lifts at the end. Tried make the most of the squats and deads though.

Barbell squats

35kg X 20
55kg X 20
75kg X 15
80kg X 10


Deads

80kg X 20, 17, 15

80kg is the max I can go to just now so time to get a couple more plates me thinks.
 
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I recon if I do the highest squat weight for three sets and crank up the weight on the deads (I do constant tension like touch and go) so they are in the 6 to 10 rep range I'll be making good progress.
 
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Another interesting video, especially question two. Kinds makes you realise that all those £30-£40 cycle support supps are just a fad or scam. Incidentally choline bitartrate is £3.50 per 100 grams on bulk powders just now.

 
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Welcome to reality! :)
 
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So leg day... My excuse of the day being that I had little time so ditched the straight legged lifts at the end. Tried make the most of the squats and deads though.

Barbell squats

35kg X 20
55kg X 20
75kg X 15
80kg X 10


Deads

80kg X 20, 17, 15

80kg is the max I can go to just now so time to get a couple more plates me thinks.

I recon if I do the highest squat weight for three sets and crank up the weight on the deads (I do constant tension like touch and go) so they are in the 6 to 10 rep range I'll be making good progress.
Don't worry about the weight used, as long as you are no strongman. TUT works too, less injury risk.
Weight increases over time automatically, if you can truly control a lesser weight (think slow-mo, variations in grip, partials) and the time for a set increases too much.
 
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Don't worry about the weight used, as long as you are no strongman. TUT works too, less injury risk.
Weight increases over time automatically, if you can truly control a lesser weight (think slow-mo, variations in grip, partials) and the time for a set increases too much.
Yeah, this is usually how I train due to limited weights available. However I would still like to get my lifts up to around 100kg (225). Then like you say it's a case of slow steady form. Ass to grass on squats, slower tempo etc. I train in an upstairs bedroom so can't risk heavy weights crashing about anyway.
 
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Yeah, this is usually how I train due to limited weights available. However I would still like to get my lifts up to around 100kg (225). Then like you say it's a case of slow steady form. Ass to grass on squats, slower tempo etc. I train in an upstairs bedroom so can't risk heavy weights crashing about anyway.
You will get there soon.
 
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Welcome to reality! :)
I like the ask the doc vids, they are really informative. I'm sure there are a bunch of guys here who think he's full of crap but he used to work with Arnold and the likes back in the golden era. There was another vid a while back I posted which points out that pct is a myth. People back in the day were not all injecting test they were popping pills (dianabol and the like) and there was no pct. The best way to get your natural test hpta and all that firing on all cylinders was to go cold turkey.
 
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I like the ask the doc vids, they are really informative. I'm sure there are a bunch of guys here who think he's full of crap but he used to work with Arnold and the likes back in the golden era. There was another vid a while back I posted which points out that pct is a myth. People back in the day were not all injecting test they were popping pills (dianabol and the like) and there was no pct. The best way to get your natural test hpta and all that firing on all cylinders was to go cold turkey.
After seeing lab results of what clomid does to low test, you may be dumbstruck.
Vintage bodybuilders looked like chicken, nowadays they look like turkeys in comparison.
 
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After seeing lab results of what clomid does to low test, you may be dumbstruck.
Vintage bodybuilders looked like chicken, nowadays they look like turkeys in comparison.
Lol yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't do anything. It was more about how the likes of clomid actually slows down the process of regaining natural test. If the goal is to get natural test back up and running as quick as possible then your best without a serm.

Not wanting to feel like crap, or wanting to continue to boost using non natural means that assist you in maintaining or continuing to gain after cycles easier would be arguments for but again the "if your taking superdrol then a serm is a must, do your homework your so unprepared" shenanigans just isn't true.

Still gonna run clomid in a few weeks since I have it but nothing catastrophic would happen if I didn't.
 
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Lol yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't do anything. It was more about how the likes of clomid actually slows down the process of regaining natural test. If the goal is to get natural test back up and running as quick as possible then your best without a serm.

Not wanting to feel like crap, or wanting to continue to boost using non natural means that assist you in maintaining or continuing to gain after cycles easier would be arguments for but again the "if your taking superdrol then a serm is a must, do your homework your so unprepared" shenanigans just isn't true.

Still gonna run clomid in a few weeks since I have it but nothing catastrophic would happen if I didn't.
I dare you to do it natty and post the lab results. Show me how sure you are about your hypothesis. :)
I don't get what you are saying with " clomid actually slows down the process of regaining natural test. If the goal is to get natural test back up and running as quick as possible then your best without a serm."

Its not like using MK that boosts a hormone for the duration used. After cessation of clomid, test stays up, going back to homeostasis (before suppression), not down to the suppressed state. If it would, that would give credit to your assertion.
Sure, one could go cold turkey, waiting it out for, how long, months? While losing gains and libido.
 
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I think with pct a lot of people will stop or at least reduce intensity of training because of the psychological aspects of coming off. If taking clomid or anything else etc. Helps keep your self asteem up and keeps you focussed and grinding then that is also a huge factor in maintaining progress.

With regards to on cycle support if your taking 30 or 40 mg of epistane and in two weeks your eyes are tuning yellow from liver strain then you have much more serious issues than the average guy. Popping an Oct cycle support would not prevent this, most are pixie dusted concoctions with little to no evidence of helping in that scenario. Tudca has some good evidence but can be counter productive to making gains which defeats the purpose. Run your cycle then after take a couple of things to help liver function but again "cycle support is a must" is simply not true.

I get that if I was 240lbs and ripped people would be more inclined to listen, these are obviously just my opinions. Running my epi and trenadrol cycle just now ( get that they are relatively low dosed) I feel way better than my last two cycles with no support besides electrolytes and taurine for hydration. Off course world war three may be going on internally for all I know but last cycle I used OL cycle support and it gave me stomach cramps and the sh1ts.
 
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I think with pct a lot of people will stop or at least reduce intensity of training because of the psychological aspects of coming off. If taking clomid or anything else etc. Helps keep your self asteem up and keeps you focussed and grinding then that is also a huge factor in maintaining progress.

With regards to on cycle support if your taking 30 or 40 mg of epistane and in two weeks your eyes are tuning yellow from liver strain then you have much more serious issues than the average guy. Popping an Oct cycle support would not prevent this, most are pixie dusted concoctions with little to no evidence of helping in that scenario. Tudca has some good evidence but can be counter productive to making gains which defeats the purpose. Run your cycle then after take a couple of things to help liver function but again "cycle support is a must" is simply not true.

I get that if I was 240lbs and ripped people would be more inclined to listen, these are obviously just my opinions. Running my epi and trenadrol cycle just now ( get that they are relatively low dosed) I feel way better than my last two cycles with no support besides electrolytes and taurine for hydration. Off course world war three may be going on internally for all I know but last cycle I used OL cycle support and it gave me stomach cramps and the sh1ts.
I can't remember the "docs" reasons for not using clomid. I'm sure it works it's possibly that in some cases you are adding more sides of a different nature that need to be mitigated. Most people also would probably be back on cycle within three months so the time for natural test to bounce back would probably not be fully exploited anyway.

"It’s important to note that use of Clomid in men is off-label, meaning that it has not been formally approved for the treatment of low T or infertility in men. However, there are quite a few studies that document use of Clomid in men.Side effects of Clomid use in men that have been observed include facial flushing, excessive sweating, gynecomastia and breast tenderness, weight gain, hypertension, cataracts, and acne."

With clomid causing possible hypertension and/or gyno then using it when between cycles possibly makes the chances of problems on cycle more likely.
 
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I think with pct a lot of people will stop or at least reduce intensity of training because of the psychological aspects of coming off. If taking clomid or anything else etc. Helps keep your self asteem up and keeps you focussed and grinding then that is also a huge factor in maintaining progress.

With regards to on cycle support if your taking 30 or 40 mg of epistane and in two weeks your eyes are tuning yellow from liver strain then you have much more serious issues than the average guy. Popping an Oct cycle support would not prevent this, most are pixie dusted concoctions with little to no evidence of helping in that scenario. Tudca has some good evidence but can be counter productive to making gains which defeats the purpose. Run your cycle then after take a couple of things to help liver function but again "cycle support is a must" is simply not true.

I get that if I was 240lbs and ripped people would be more inclined to listen, these are obviously just my opinions. Running my epi and trenadrol cycle just now ( get that they are relatively low dosed) I feel way better than my last two cycles with no support besides electrolytes and taurine for hydration. Off course world war three may be going on internally for all I know but last cycle I used OL cycle support and it gave me stomach cramps and the sh1ts.
When it comes to otc ancillaries, most is at best a band aid -but not of real help. We both know the few that make a difference, like electrolytes, Tudca, maybe NAC too. Saw Palmetto is good, but often not necessary, because people think of prostate problems, when in reality their bladder is affected by certain roids, causing frequent urination with less volume (not very known fact, look it up). Personally, I don't use otc support. I also don't use whey, BCAA, creatine -or anything. BUT, I use Telmisartan for BP and insulin sensitivity, Tadalafil, potassium, plain salt, zinc, magnesium malate, multi B-vit, Vit-C and fishoil. All mentioned is important, in my book.

You are partly wrong with your statement that clomid -or PCT is more a psychological help than anything.
Your glycogen storage in your muscles shrink after cessation of roids, so does your strength. Not psychosomatic at all. Clomid and HCG do not help with that in the first weeks and trying to keep your former numbers on cycle is futile, IMHO. You should still train hard -but curb expectations by as much as 20-30%, depending how effective your compounds were.

As I said, try to go cold turkey into PCT and show some lab work, it would be interesting indeed. I would not recommend it at all, because I don't assume anything and go by what I have seen on paper -and experimented myself.
 
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When it comes to otc ancillaries, most is at best a band aid -but not of real help. We both know the few that make a difference, like electrolytes, Tudca, maybe NAC too. Saw Palmetto is good, but often not necessary, because people think of prostate problems, when in reality their bladder is affected by certain roids, causing frequent urination with less volume (not very known fact, look it up). Personally, I don't use otc support. I also don't use whey, BCAA, creatine -or anything. BUT, I use Telmisartan for BP and insulin sensitivity, Tadalafil, potassium, plain salt, zinc, magnesium malate, multi B-vit, Vit-C and fishoil. All mentioned is important, in my book.

You are partly wrong with your statement that clomid -or PCT is more a psychological help than anything.
Your glycogen storage in your muscles shrink after cessation of roids, so does your strength. Not psychosomatic at all. Clomid and HCG do not help with that in the first weeks and trying to keep your former numbers on cycle is futile, IMHO. You should still train hard -but curb expectations by as much as 20-30%, depending how effective your compounds were.

As I said, try to go cold turkey into PCT and show some lab work, it would be interesting indeed. I would not recommend it at all, because I don't assume anything and go by what I have seen on paper -and experimented myself.
All good points. I also use fish oil, didn't count it as support cos I use it even if I'm not training or on cycle. But yeah, the evidence would show benefits of clomid over cold turkey.

I think my point was aimed more to the people that harp on a out how cycle support and serms are a "must". They are not. No one is dying without them and it takes a hell of a lot of abuse of anabolics to render yourself impotent with the test levels of a 5 year old girl for life. Yes we give our own best advice and as we know that advice of what's best on cycle and during pct will be different depending on who you talk to but that guy who is dabbling for the first time and taking a 4 week cycle of 1 andro does not need the sh1ts put up him with agro about not doing his homework and not having cycle support or serms on hand as long as his dosing is sound. In my experience kitchen sinking cycle support plays more havok with your inner workings than just the cycle alone.

It just annoys me when people chime with that crap when it's not needed... In my opinion. I'm not a jacked 4% bodyfat bodybuilder but I've ran cycles without support and serms and maintained in the past for months until something in my life has stopped my training or sticking to my diet. Never got bloods done so maybe I was a wreck inside bug purely going by feel never got depressed, lost sex drive, shrank in size overnight (or over weeks).... Hang on, maybe all my stuff was bunk.
 
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Lol I'm now busy commenting on Jerry wards video about how Mike Ohearn must be natural. Where's ironhands when you need him?
 
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Speaking of people taking stuff that's useless and unnecessary I've added Patrick Arnold's experimental topical dhea pregnenolone 3 spray by prototype nutrition to my current cycle to compare with dermacrine which I can't get at the moment. I'll let you know how I feel on it in a few days.
 
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Arms

Lying ez bar triceps extensions on incline bench with underhand grip. Lower bar well behind head and raise until arms straight but still 45 degrees to the floor.

30kg X 15
35kg X 10,7,7 drop set to 25kg X 15

Dumbell overhead triceps extension seated with single dumbell. (Both arms)

27.5kg X 15,15,15 dropset to 17.5kg X 22

Ez bar standing biceps curls

30kg X 20
40kg X 15
45kg X 8, 8, 8 drop set to 30kg X 14

Dumbell curls on inclined bench, arms behind body.

12.5kg X 12,10,9
 
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Speaking of people taking stuff that's useless and unnecessary I've added Patrick Arnold's experimental topical dhea pregnenolone 3 spray by prototype nutrition to my current cycle to compare with dermacrine which I can't get at the moment. I'll let you know how I feel on it in a few days.
That should do something. Did for me -but from other supplier.
 
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Looking sporty -and with that angelic lighting, LOL. Is it you, Jesus? :)
 
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That should do something. Did for me -but from other supplier.
Only issue I have with it is it's a spray. But doesn't come with the spray attachment. I'm using a random top off another bottle and have no idea if it's dosing correctly. Supposed to do 25 sprays twice a day, consistency is like water so I could be way over or under dosing it. It's a fairly "safe" product to use so I'm not too worried about it but it's just weird it doesn't come with the means to correctly dose.
1558469569748.jpeg
1558469604459.jpeg
 
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Looking sporty -and with that angelic lighting, LOL. Is it you, Jesus? :)
Yeah lighting sucks, my phone also automatically makes everything brighter than it is which when it's sunny is overkill.
 
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25 sprays twice a day? WTF? What idiot created that? You may need a gallon of this. The one I used you get over the counter with amazon, 1 pump twice a day -and it worked.
 
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Formulated for menopausal women -but ingredient profile makes it a great addition for TRT.
 
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25 sprays twice a day? WTF? What idiot created that? You may need a gallon of this. The one I used you get over the counter with amazon, 1 pump twice a day -and it worked.
I think it's cos it's like water. I've done 50 sprays today and the level has hardly moved. It's not the consistency of dermacrine. I've done the maths using info from the website and I think I need to use 4 ml per application, bottle contains 7200 mg of actives per bottle and I need to use 250mg per day so 125 morning and evening. So the bottle contains 240ml of fluid 7200mg divided by 240 is 30 so 30mg per ml so... I need around 4ml twice per day? Maybe I can use a syringe or dropper. Or I'll do the 50 sprays into a container and use a medicine syringe I have to see how close that is to 4ml, either way precise it won't be.
 
Wobmarvel

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The sprayer is like a mist sprayer not a dispenser.
 
Wobmarvel

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Means that's 30 days per bottle at 8ml which I guess is pretty much the norm.
 
hairygrandpa

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At 50 pumps a day it also gives finger muscle gains. :)
 
Wobmarvel

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At 50 pumps a day it also gives finger muscle gains. :)
Couldn't be arsed this morning so just poured a little into each hand and rubbed it on my arms and chest. Pretty sure that's still scientific measurement. I've been using my wife's hair conditioner spray nozzle so was having to clean it out before and after use... Unless she can benefit from washing her hair with dhea in the shower every day
 

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