Why is 20mg Dbol oral only cycle that bad?

[UniqueUserName]

I've heard 10-15mg is equivalent to TRT dose when it used to be used for that.
With that in mind I've seen dose recommendations from 20mg to 70mg. But it's not clear if those are stacked dosages. So would a higher dose, 30 - 40mg be better on an oral only cycle?

I know everyone says if you're gunna do em do em proper and inject 500mg test. But is a 6 week oral only cycle of Dbol really that bad to test the waters without needing to use needles. I have heard people say there is no such thing as a Dbol only cycle and yet I have also heard just as many people say that they have done them and although they are not as good, they are still good.

Obviously a full PCT after and Ralox on hand for gyno.

Previous experience with SARMs
Thanks in advance

 

[NattyBeast]

Don't run orals without a test base. You'll be lethargic and feel like ****. If you want to run only six weeks total, better do it along with some test prop 25-50mg Ed, or even better do go for 10 weeks and just use 250mg test e or c per week, which is like a high end trt dose for most people and use the dbol as a starter until the longer ester test kicks in.

 

[Ironpirate]

There's nothing wrong with running dbol only plenty of people have and still do. Are there better options, yes.

 

[Hyde]

Nothing wrong with it inherently. But you have nowhere to go from there. You need longer than 4-6 week cycles to build lasting muscle. You can eat 20-30mg dbol daily, you’ll gain some mass and water, come off, lose most of it.

Nobody you have ever seen that had a physique you admired or performed a feat of strength you may aspire to that used AAS only stuck to Dbol-only cycles. You will have to do real cycles with oil to get those real results.

Better that you do a first cycle of test of maybe 300mg/wk. 400 tops. Then you can add things to it like 20mg Dbol the following cycle, and so on as you advance and need more over time. You can only handle so much Dbol or any oral, and only for so many weeks, so oral-only cycles are inherently limited. Transdermals, you only have so much skin surface. You must use oils to remove that longterm bottleneck.

Don’t you want to know if you can even handle pinning? It’s going to be a requirement for cycling so delaying it will only hold you back. It’s 101 for a longterm plan. Orals are worse for your health, and all AAS use is unhealthy enough as it is.

 

[UniqueUserName]

Nothing wrong with it inherently. But you have nowhere to go from there. You need longer than 4-6 week cycles to build lasting muscle. You can eat 20-30mg dbol daily, you’ll gain some mass and water, come off, lose most of it.

Nobody you have ever seen that had a physique you admired or performed a feat of strength you may aspire to that used AAS only stuck to Dbol-only cycles. You will have to do real cycles with oil to get those real results.

Better that you do a first cycle of test of maybe 300mg/wk. 400 tops. Then you can add things to it like 20mg Dbol the following cycle, and so on as you advance and need more over time. You can only handle so much Dbol or any oral, and only for so many weeks, so oral-only cycles are inherently limited. Transdermals, you only have so much skin surface. You must use oils to remove that longterm bottleneck.

Don’t you want to know if you can even handle pinning? It’s going to be a requirement for cycling so delaying it will only hold you back. It’s 101 for a longterm plan. Orals are worse for your health, and all AAS use is unhealthy enough as it is.

I think pinning would be a struggle, of course no one likes needles but I can't picture it. Had my covid jab today and that was bad enough with someone else doing it

My thoughts are more along the lines of, yes you'll lose most of, but with a proper PCT etc. the gains that you do keep are still advantageous over never being on cycle. I don't play to be on for life, more a case of building up a bank of myonuclei until about 30. But I'm concerned about recovery from cycles after age 30. I don't want to reach the point where I am forced to pic for the rest of my life you know.

But you make really good points and I appreciate your info massively

 

[bad rad]

Dbol only results in fleeting gains. If you mix it with a DHT based oral the results are typically better but you'll still lose a lot post cycle.

 

[Nac]

If you're dead set against pinning I'd personally go the transdermal route myself. Orals are just plain toxic crap. Transdermal is much more sustainable, you can run for longer periods and probably make much better headway in the long run than going the purely-oral route. I've run both kinds of administration, and I'd certainly put transdermal as a preferable longterm method over orals (but as others said, not as ideal as oils and inj).

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I think it's because it's a case of easy come, easy go. Fast gains, but equally fast loss.

 

[Hyde]

I think pinning would be a struggle, of course no one likes needles but I can't picture it. Had my covid jab today and that was bad enough with someone else doing it

My thoughts are more along the lines of, yes you'll lose most of, but with a proper PCT etc. the gains that you do keep are still advantageous over never being on cycle. I don't play to be on for life, more a case of building up a bank of myonuclei until about 30. But I'm concerned about recovery from cycles after age 30. I don't want to reach the point where I am forced to pic for the rest of my life you know.

But you make really good points and I appreciate your info massively

You can’t stomach the thought of a 27g 1/2” slin pin in your delts? If you can squat without a pussypad on the barbell, I promise you can handle it.

If you run a bunch of cycles in your 20s you will very likely lower your test levels in later years vs what they would have been if you hadn’t. There’s a reason many guys who used PH/DS end up on TRT a decade or two later. If you can’t stomach that idea, you should quit cycling anything while you are ahead & focus on taking care of what you’ve got naturally.

What good will extra myonuclei be if you have lower androgen levels for decades? What do you think will contribute to better longterm training and quality of life?

Everyone wants a free lunch that doesn’t exist. But please call me if you find one…

 

[Smont]

There's nothing "wrong" with a dbol only cycle, it's just not ideal. Just about everyone in the 60s was running dbol only cycles and they all looked great, they were also staying on dbol year round tho

 

[Smont]

The whole thing about more keepable gains is nonsense, muscle is muscle, if it vanished quickly post cycle then it wasn't muscle to begin with, it was water and glycogen. If you built 5 lbs of actual muscle it wouldn't matter what drug was used to build it.

With that said, it doesn't matter how perfect your pct is. Your not naturally maintaining the muscle that steroids built. And that whole bank of myonuclei you can toss out the window.

 

[Whisky]

Echo some of the comments above re why oral only cycles aren’t ideal long term. You will lose virtually everything you gain running what you plan.

If one is to run an oral only, singular compound cycle, then at least dbol provides the estrogen and is probably the best shout (it’s been used as a test base in the past and whilst not ideal it’s one of the better ‘non test, test base’ options). I actually wouldn’t ever combine it with test (at anything over 20mg anyway) purely due to the wetness.

as bad rad said, stacking with a dht will bring better results.

ultimately though, you need to consider than there isn’t really a half measure with aas. There isn’t a mild approach that gives some gains with no sides/risks (most people massively overestimate what gear will do for them ime and therefore anything mild enough to have no sides or risks won’t do anything noticeable).

honestly, if your going down this path you need to see it as a one way street that ends on trt. Sure that’s not the case for all guys but there are also some who need trt after one cycle so

it’s like when you agree to let a girl stick a finger in your ass. Some guys won’t ever do it again, some will rapidly progress to being pegged by some monster dong but most of us just continue to ensure the pleasure one or two fingers can bring. My point is you will probably keep cycling, you probably won’t go crazy on it but cycle long enough and you will damage your own test production enough to need trt bro

 

[Smont]

 

[Mathb33]

There's nothing "wrong" with a dbol only cycle, it's just not ideal. Just about everyone in the 60s was running dbol only cycles and they all looked great, they were also staying on dbol year round tho

Indeed, but they ran it for 8 months straight, not really aware of the massive toxicity of orals. So the fact that orals don’t pack on muscles a lot on a 4-5-6 weeks cycle did not apply to them. It’s plain and simple.. you won’t pack more than 2-3 lbs of REAL TISSUE in a 4-6 weeks cycle. Whatever you’re on.

 

[Smont]

Indeed, but they ran it for 8 months straight, not really aware of the massive toxicity of orals. So the fact that orals don’t pack on muscles a lot on a 4-5-6 weeks cycle did not apply to them. It’s plain and simple.. you won’t pack more than 2-3 lbs of REAL TISSUE in a 4-6 weeks cycle. Whatever you’re on.

That's the real downside I see to oral only, 4-6 weeks is not long enough to make noticable progress. Now maybe if you really went low, 10mg for 8-12 weeks, I think that's a better option for dbol only. It was and in some places still is prescribed indefinitely for hrt at 5-10mg a day.

 

[Smont]

Ultimately, here's what's most likely to happen if you run 20mg of dbol for 4-6 weeks, especially if it's your first cycle and you are eating and lifting accordingly.

Your gain about 20+lbs of bodyweight, 2-5lbs might be muscle growth, the rest is water and glycogen in the muscle that is really going to look like actual muscle.

Now A, you love what you see and keep the cycle going.

B, you start pct, loose 10-12 lbs in the first week or 2 and potentially loose 15-20lbs by the end of pct, now your pissed and jump back on or start planning the next cycle and the saga continues, Wu-Tang

 

[KvanH]

--There’s a reason many guys who used PH/DS end up on TRT a decade or two later. If you can’t stomach that idea, you should quit cycling anything while you are ahead & focus on taking care of what you’ve got naturally.--

This is the most important bit for anyone considering gear use and have a real aversion for needles. Although far from optimal, I think you can cycle even years without pinning, if you really can't stand needles. With TD's, test gel, orals, some not methylated PH's etc. But what you can't get away from is the fact that your cycling has a (high) chance of putting you on trt at some point and then you have to work with the needles.

 

[Hyde]

This is the most important bit for anyone considering gear use and have a real aversion for needles. Although far from optimal, I think you can cycle even years without pinning, if you really can't stand needles. With TD's, test gel, orals, some not methylated PH's etc. But what you can't get away from is the fact that your cycling has a (high) chance of putting you on trt at some point and then you have to work with the needles.

Pretty much this. You can do it; I did it. But it’s just taking the hard (on your body) path for much less result.

I went 9 years I believe cycling without oils. I wasn’t scared of needles; I just didn’t ever realize how much I was holding myself back. Got to the point where I was doing 4-5 compounds usually, got up to 11-12 week cycles, all the transdermals and orals. It was rough for my body. Then on my first oil cycle, I ran 300mg test e kicked with 20-30mg Pheraplex and finished for the meet with little doses of S4 & Mtren & immediately got more gains than basically any cycle ever the last 9 years prior.

There was no comparison.

 

[Hyde]

This is the most important bit for anyone considering gear use and have a real aversion for needles. Although far from optimal, I think you can cycle even years without pinning, if you really can't stand needles. With TD's, test gel, orals, some not methylated PH's etc. But what you can't get away from is the fact that your cycling has a (high) chance of putting you on trt at some point and then you have to work with the needles.

Pretty much this. You can do it; I did it. But it’s just taking the hard (on your body) path for much less result.

I went 9 years I believe cycling without oils. I wasn’t scared of needles; I just didn’t ever realize how much I was holding myself back. Got to the point where I was doing 4-5 compounds usually, got up to 11-12 week cycles, all the transdermals and orals. It was rough for my body. Then on my first oil cycle, I ran 300mg test e kicked with 20-30mg Pheraplex and finished for the meet with little doses of S4 & Mtren & immediately got more gains than basically any cycle ever the last 9 years prior.

There was no comparison.

 

[Ironpirate]

Now you've got me reminiscing about my mtren days I still use orals and tds but an all oil cycle is so much simpler and healthier.

 

[Hyde]

Now you've got me reminiscing about my mtren days I still use orals and tds but an all oil cycle is so much simpler and healthier.

I didn’t use it daily as an anabolic, but rather preWO only for the final heavy training sessions where maximal neurology is the focus. Stuff seemed pretty harsh to try to run daily.

 

[Smont]

I didn’t use it daily as an anabolic, but rather preWO only for the final heavy training sessions where maximal neurology is the focus. Stuff seemed pretty harsh to try to run daily.

I don't remember where I saw it, but I came across someone laying out a cycle that includes mtren at 20mg a day! Boston loyd was looking over the cycle and even he was like dude, wtf

 

[Hyde]

I don't remember where I saw it, but I came across someone laying out a cycle that includes mtren at 20mg a day! Boston loyd was looking over the cycle and even he was like dude, wtf

They had to have meant 2mg

 

[Smont]

They had to have meant 2mg

I hope so lol

 

[Smont]

Found it, it's on YouTube, Boston and the Leo longevity guy have a rate my cycle segment. There's a few different ones

 

[Ironpirate]

I didn’t use it daily as an anabolic, but rather preWO only for the final heavy training sessions where maximal neurology is the focus. Stuff seemed pretty harsh to try to run daily.

I've ran it at 2mg a day for 3 weeks, definitely will never do that again it took my liver enzymes several months to balance out. My Dr had me do an ultrasound. With that said I don't think my weenus was dry the entire time. Great life experience and lesson learned.

 

[UniqueUserName]

UPDATE
Attempted 30-40mg ED of "DBol"...
But it was obviously bunk.
Literally no signs positive or negative after 4 weeks.
Solid waste of money with the "PCT", Tudca, "Arimadex" and "Raloxifene"... and the only thing that was legit was the Tudca.

They made it look so real, I'm honestly impressed by the fakery.

 

[Smont]

UPDATE
Attempted 30-40mg ED of "DBol"...
But it was obviously bunk.
Literally no signs positive or negative after 4 weeks.
Solid waste of money with the "PCT", Tudca, "Arimadex" and "Raloxifene"... and the only thing that was legit was the Tudca.
View attachment 208737
They made it look so real, I'm honestly impressed by the fakery.

Post up pictures of the products

 

[Benmuscle1]

If you are set on oral just do high dose 4 andro 12 weeks and dbol 8 weeks and get an ai. When it's time to pct you'll probably end up keeping more and recovering faster also to no long esters to clear. Honestly cycling is dumb if you want to keep gains in my opinion, blast and cruise is better. I just watched my friens do a 4 heavy toxic oral run for 3 months straight 90 days of dmz msten and m1a and something else. He gained about 25 pounds and looked massive and lost it all in a month and looks smaller by the day. What it DID do was allow him to basically get damn near shredded so he lost tons of extra fat just by being on them. But the mass and strength is gone and in a shirt he barely looks like he lifts.

 

[Smont]

If you are set on oral just do high dose 4 andro 12 weeks and dbol 8 weeks and get an ai. When it's time to pct you'll probably end up keeping more and recovering faster also to no long esters to clear. Honestly cycling is dumb if you want to keep gains in my opinion, blast and cruise is better. I just watched my friens do a 4 heavy toxic oral run for 3 months straight 90 days of dmz msten and m1a and something else. He gained about 25 pounds and looked massive and lost it all in a month and looks smaller by the day. What it DID do was allow him to basically get damn near shredded so he lost tons of extra fat just by being on them. But the mass and strength is gone and in a shirt he barely looks like he lifts.

There's absolutely no reason to run a high dose of 4 Andro with dbol, all you would be doing is adding more estrogen to the cycle and pretty much nothing of benifit

 

[UniqueUserName]

Post up pictures of the products

Let me know if it's too small to see, had trouble uploading.

 

[Smont]

Let me know if it's too small to see, had trouble uploading.
View attachment 208741

Ya when I zoom in it gets blurry. Can't really make out anything on the labels

 

[UniqueUserName]

Ya when I zoom in it gets blurry. Can't really make out anything on the labels

 

[UniqueUserName]

Ya when I zoom in it gets blurry. Can't really make out anything on the labels

Literally everything I saw online about the brands was positive. But if they were legit then surely I would have felt/seen something. Not even water retention.

 

[Smont]

View attachment 208742

I just did a quick search and I will do more later but everything on this company I saw has good reviews but there all from 2018/2019.

So maybe they went downhill or maybe another carrier is making knock offs.

I gotta dig around a little more when I get some time

 

[Hyde]

What a bust. Sorry man.

 

[Smont]

Literally everything I saw online about the brands was positive. But if they were legit then surely I would have felt/seen something. Not even water retention.

Yeah that's not good, even if you kept your diet exactly the same and didn't change anything with your workouts, at bare minimum you should have put on some water weight and felt stronger in the gym

 

[UniqueUserName]

Yep, they are offering my store credit and free shipping... which is nice, but what's the point with bunk gear

They also stock another brand but I don't know if that's any good either

 

[Benmuscle1]

There's absolutely no reason to run a high dose of 4 Andro with dbol, all you would be doing is adding more estrogen to the cycle and pretty much nothing of benifit

It converts to test so why not? With the use of AI he will run into no issues, feel best and make more gains. I'm stating something that will act as a test base, something that can easily be ran 90 days, will have little issues with an AI, and build more muscle. If his goal is too put on some mass it makes perfect sense. It's not the closest thing to running real test but it's a lot closer than many alternatives. It makes perfect sense and is very doable. When I mean high dose I mean don't go buy some underdosed 4ando like high tech. Run a real dose that leads to some gains not just taking it to say you took it.

 

[UniqueUserName]

It converts to test so why not? With the use of AI he will run into no issues, feel best and make more gains. I'm stating something that will act as a test base, something that can easily be ran 90 days, will have little issues with an AI, and build more muscle. If his goal is too put on some mass it makes perfect sense. It's not the closest thing to running real test but it's a lot closer than many alternatives. It makes perfect sense and is very doable. When I mean high dose I mean don't go buy some underdosed 4ando like high tech. Run a real dose that leads to some gains not just taking it to say you took it.

Dbol is the test base

 

[Benmuscle1]

Dbol is the test base

I believe you can still get ED from using dbol only. I have read about it happening and saw a video about it happening to a guy.

 

[UniqueUserName]

I believe you can still get ED from using dbol only. I have read about it happening and saw a video about it happening to a guy.

Ahh fair

 

[Smont]

It converts to test so why not? With the use of AI he will run into no issues, feel best and make more gains. I'm stating something that will act as a test base, something that can easily be ran 90 days, will have little issues with an AI, and build more muscle. If his goal is too put on some mass it makes perfect sense. It's not the closest thing to running real test but it's a lot closer than many alternatives. It makes perfect sense and is very doable. When I mean high dose I mean don't go buy some underdosed 4ando like high tech. Run a real dose that leads to some gains not just taking it to say you took it.

4 Andro converts to test at a very low rate and converts to estrogen at a higher rate. It's a waste with dbol because dbol is its own base, that's why dr.s use it for hormone replacement therapy. Adding 4 Andro to dbol is 100% pointless and will cause more potential for estrogen side effects without any benefits at all. Unless you consider water weight and gynecomastia a benefit

 

[Smont]

I believe you can still get ED from using dbol only. I have read about it happening and saw a video about it happening to a guy.

You're only going to get Ed from dbol if you let your estrogen go through the roof. If your estrogen is in check it should have the opposite effect, again, this is why doctors use it for hormone replacement therapy....

 

[Smont]

If you wanted to add something to dbol to make it better it would be proviron

 

[Smont]

Or a low dose of actual testosterone, which everyone should probably be using if they want to use steroids

 

[Hyde]

I believe you can still get ED from using dbol only. I have read about it happening and saw a video about it happening to a guy.

Uhhh you can also still get it from running 4andro only. Speaking from experience.

I have used 4DHEA many times, with and without AIs, epiandrosterone, and in various & tremendous quantities. You have limited conversion enzymes - you can’t just take larger amounts and expect linear conversions to testosterone. Plus dealing with bioavailability, as well as all of the other pathways it can be converted to, means the actual testosterone you get is pretty variable.

It ends up making for a rather disappointing growth promoter beyond a very basal level of use for estrogen & a nip of test. It also has pretty short half-life, and that combined with the significant estrogen conversion that increases with dose escalation mean it’s very easy to have good erectile function one hour and lacking the next. I have ran it as a base out to 13 weeks; you can get by on it but it’s not great.

So I honestly only recommend a modest amount for some estradiol (Dbol doesn’t convert to this), and don’t expect it to feel like your normal self/function when off-cycle even then. It’s just not stable.

 

[Gym minnow]

You can’t stomach the thought of a 27g 1/2” slin pin in your delts? If you can squat without a pussypad on the barbell, I promise you can handle it.

If you run a bunch of cycles in your 20s you will very likely lower your test levels in later years vs what they would have been if you hadn’t. There’s a reason many guys who used PH/DS end up on TRT a decade or two later. If you can’t stomach that idea, you should quit cycling anything while you are ahead & focus on taking care of what you’ve got naturally.

What good will extra myonuclei be if you have lower androgen levels for decades? What do you think will contribute to better longterm training and quality of life?

Everyone wants a free lunch that doesn’t exist. But please call me if you find one…

I need

 

[Gym minnow]

I need

I need a pussy pad to squat, but I can still manage to pin with 25 gauge needles in my glutes!

 

[UniqueUserName]

I need a pussy pad to squat, but I can still manage to pin with 25 gauge needles in my glutes!

How do you dispose of the needles, do you have to order a sharps box, do they give them to anyone?