Where to put M-Sten in a Trestolone cycle?

BioHackJack

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I just picked up some M-Sten and want to place it somewhere in a Trest Ace cycle. I was thinking....run it during the last 4 weeks but I hear of people using it as a "kick-starter". I'm trying to understand the kickstarter approach but it seems to me that I'd risk screwing up my lipids and possibly getting lethargy sides at the very beginning of a long intense cycle. But, I'm new...and don't know crap. Anyway, where would you place the M-Sten in a 10 week cycle of Trest Ace 15-20mg....and at what doses? Thanks again for always being there to answer my dumbarse questions. :)
 
Burnfire

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I personally agree and like to place orals if I’m running them on the tail end of a cycle. Have any cycle supports for this quest?
 

BioHackJack

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Yeah...cycle support that I have so far is Ralox, Anastrozole, P5P, DIM, Taurine, and Milk Thistle. Maybe I should pick up some Tudca or something for the M-Sten.
 
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scuncknuts

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I always run it in the beginning of the cycle I don't know how it would go at the end. Because I always PCT I try to taper My cycles down. How much test are you taking on this cycle?
 

Jstrong20

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Trest ace will hit pretty quick so I'd throw it in the end. Usually throw in orals along the befinning if your running a longer ester. Also I always go six weeks with orals. The four week thing probably came from the kick start idea. Things like dbol would load you with water and glycogen so you could make strength gains and appear bigger while you were waiting for the long ester to kick in.
 

BioHackJack

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Oh that's interesting Scuncknuts....you taper your cycles at the end. I've heard of people doing that but wasn't sure exactly why and if I need to do that or not being on TrT. As for my Testosterone dose (I forgot to include that)...I'm thinking about half of my prescribed amount....just half to keep estrogen conversion down a little bit but have a little true Test base and dht....along with the dht form the m-sten.

Jstrong20, yeah I was wondering about cycle length....4 vs 6 weeks. Okay, I'll shoot for 6 if my body tolerates the stuff....I know there's some nasty m-sten intolerance stories out there.
 
Renew1

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Oh that's interesting Scuncknuts....you taper your cycles at the end. I've heard of people doing that but wasn't sure exactly why and if I need to do that or not being on TrT. As for my Testosterone dose (I forgot to include that)...I'm thinking about half of my prescribed amount....just half to keep estrogen conversion down a little bit but have a little true Test base and dht....along with the dht form the m-sten.

Jstrong20, yeah I was wondering about cycle length....4 vs 6 weeks. Okay, I'll shoot for 6 if my body tolerates the stuff....I know there's some nasty m-sten intolerance stories out there.
Don't taper your cycles.
..... You'll still be on cycle, so your body won't begin recovery, but you'll be missing out on gains.
It's a lose/lose.
 

Mikereyn513

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I use to be a Kickstart guy but after researching people just do that because they're too impatient for longer esters to kick in and want to feel something now. I like throwing it at the end assuming you're on trt because eventually gains start to stagnate around weeks 8-10 but that's when you throw in the oral and bam more gains also the orals will be able to do more with the new tissue you've put on, it may be minor but it's something
 
Hyde

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I always run it in the beginning of the cycle I don't know how it would go at the end. Because I always PCT I try to taper My cycles down. How much test are you taking on this cycle?
This is the worst possible way you could run a cycle, all of it. I mean this is bro nonsense from 30 years ago.

Doses must only ever climb over the course of a blast if new adaptations are to be made. ESPECIALLY if you PCT, you want every single week suppressing your natural testosterone production to count. Tapering is unnecessary time spent suppressed, preventing recovery, with no progress.

And frontloading/kickstarting is even worse. Now, you’ve placed the greatest anabolic load when you were already most sensitive to androgen response & needed the least to grow, AND then intend to pull it out just when your body would really begin accommodating and require even more for continued progression.
 

BioHackJack

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Yeah, my instincts were telling me just that.

What's likely the lowest dose of M-Sten I can take and experience the benefits while stacking with Trest? I was thinking about starting at 10mg ED (5mg AM / 5mg PM). Yeah I know, this is lower than most take...., do you think I should up it to 20?
 

Mikereyn513

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This is the worst possible way you could run a cycle, all of it. I mean this is bro nonsense from 30 years ago.

Doses must only ever climb over the course of a blast if new adaptations are to be made. ESPECIALLY if you PCT, you want every single week suppressing your natural testosterone production to count. Tapering is unnecessary time spent suppressed, preventing recovery, with no progress.

And frontloading/kickstarting is even worse. Now, you’ve placed the greatest anabolic load when you were already most sensitive to androgen response & needed the least to grow, AND then intend to pull it out just when your body would really begin accommodating and require even more for continued progression.
Hallelujah!!! Preach brother @Hyde
 
Hyde

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Hallelujah!!! Preach brother @Hyde
I probably sounded like a dick, which isn’t helpful if it shuts people off to what I’m saying, but it’s the truth.

Just sick of people getting misled, then those people misleading an entirely new group of people with their survivorship bias (well, I did X and got some results, so it’s obviously the best way).

It’s not 1990. We have the internet, and the means to read medical literature and share info easily now. No reason to cycle like it’s 1990. We can get more from less & mitigate some of the risks of this game if we are smarter about the approach.
 

Mikereyn513

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I probably sounded like a dick, which isn’t helpful if it shuts people off to what I’m saying, but it’s the truth.

Just sick of people getting misled, then those people misleading an entirely new group of people with their survivorship bias (well, I did X and got some results, so it’s obviously the best way).

It’s not 1990. We have the internet, and the means to read medical literature and share info easily now. No reason to cycle like it’s 1990. We can get more from less & mitigate some of the risks of this game if we are smarter about the approach.
I dunno maybe next time just say that at the end didn't mean to sound like a d!ck but you ate right I mean I did a damn dbol Kickstart with my pre Hawaii cycle, do yiu know how much better this blast is going when I added the anadrol and clen at week 6 around week 8 ( 2 weeks ago now) everyone at the gym is like wtf!?! Fully visible abs and vascularity everywhere ( even inner thighs and lats) haven't seen those scince my last show 11 years ago!!
 
Hyde

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I dunno maybe next time just say that at the end didn't mean to sound like a d!ck but you ate right I mean I did a damn dbol Kickstart with my pre Hawaii cycle, do yiu know how much better this blast is going when I added the anadrol and clen at week 6 around week 8 ( 2 weeks ago now) everyone at the gym is like wtf!?! Fully visible abs and vascularity everywhere ( even inner thighs and lats) haven't seen those scince my last show 11 years ago!!
I’ve done kickstarts, I’ve tapered things down, I’m just as guilty of making most of the uneducated mistakes! I just want them to be worth something, so at least someone else doesn’t have to make them.
 
gphagan1

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It’s always better to just tell them the truth, and really if they can’t handle it then it’s on them. I would rather tell someone things that are accurate and helpful, and have them not like me, than to butter them up and tell them everything is cool, while knowing they’re taking the wrong path that leads to failure or disaster…..or at the very least trashed lipids at the start of a cycle that becomes unhealthy or miserable.
 
LeanEngineer

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It’s always better to just tell them the truth, and really if they can’t handle it then it’s on them. I would rather tell someone things that are accurate and helpful, and have them not like me, than to butter them up and tell them everything is cool, while knowing they’re taking the wrong path that leads to failure or disaster…..or at the very least trashed lipids at the start of a cycle that becomes unhealthy or miserable.
I completed agree with this as well. I think some people need constructive feedback and vice versa some people can't handle constructive feedback but I'd rather provide it than lie.
 
mTOR25

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I probably sounded like a dick, which isn’t helpful if it shuts people off to what I’m saying, but it’s the truth.

Just sick of people getting misled, then those people misleading an entirely new group of people with their survivorship bias (well, I did X and got some results, so it’s obviously the best way).

It’s not 1990. We have the internet, and the means to read medical literature and share info easily now. No reason to cycle like it’s 1990. We can get more from less & mitigate some of the risks of this game if we are smarter about the approach.
You are 100% correct no need to apologize for spitting facts!!!
 
Smont

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Yeah, my instincts were telling me just that.

What's likely the lowest dose of M-Sten I can take and experience the benefits while stacking with Trest? I was thinking about starting at 10mg ED (5mg AM / 5mg PM). Yeah I know, this is lower than most take...., do you think I should up it to 20?
Everyone is different, I didn't notice anything out of msten till 20-30mg a day. I found 30-40 to be best for me.

Other guys take 20mg and they feel like **** and can't eat. But I think less then 20 is a waste. If I couldn't take more then 20 without feeling crappy I'd pick a different compound.

You will also get a better effect taking the whole dose pre workout on training days
 
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Smont

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I completed agree with this as well. I think some people need constructive feedback and vice versa some people can't handle constructive feedback but I'd rather provide it than lie.
I'm not sure who your response is to yet because I haven't read up to date on the thread lol, but I'd rather tell someone what there doing is stupid then lie to them so I don't hurt there feelings. I'm a firm believer in constructive criticism. If I'm about to do something stupid I prefer someone speaks up and says fall back jackass that's a absolute **** idea lol. I'm usually very guilty of coming off like a dick, but 10 years ago, (shakes his cane) "back in my day", ppl didn't cry when you told them there being a dumbass, we took a step back and said, oh **** , that is fukin rediculous, thanks bro 👍
 
LeanEngineer

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ppl didn't cry when you told them there being a dumbass, we took a step back and said, oh **** , that is fukin rediculous, thanks bro 👍
I agree and that's the way it should be!
 

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Smont, that's interesting... you're saying to take the full daily dose all at once rather than splitting AM/PM. And, only on training days pre-workout. That's a little different than what I've seen others write. But, that's exactly why I come here...I know you guys have the inside knowledge, tricks, and tips to get the most out of these compounds safely. I'll start with 20mg M-Sten and go up from there if all goes well.

Getting bloodwork done late next week so I can hopefully start my Trest/M-Sten/Test cycle in late Dec or early Jan. Man, I sure am missing the feel-good vibes, libido, and energy that Trest gives....counting the days! Hoping the M-Sten will be the cherry on top at the end of the cycle.
 
KvanH

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Smont, that's interesting... you're saying to take the full daily dose all at once rather than splitting AM/PM. And, only on training days pre-workout. That's a little different than what I've seen others write. But, that's exactly why I come here...I know you guys have the inside knowledge, tricks, and tips to get the most out of these compounds safely. I'll start with 20mg M-Sten and go up from there if all goes well.

Getting bloodwork done late next week so I can hopefully start my Trest/M-Sten/Test cycle in late Dec or early Jan. Man, I sure am missing the feel-good vibes, libido, and energy that Trest gives....counting the days! Hoping the M-Sten will be the cherry on top at the end of the cycle.
I'm sure he meant to take the full daily dose pre workout on gym WO days. On no gym days you still take your daily dose, but on those days you can split it AM/PM. So for example; Monday 20 mg pre gym WO. Tuesday no gym, 10 mg upon waking up, 10 mg PM. And so on..

Btw, I believe the M-Sten can be the cherry on top for strenght and size, but for feel good vibes, as you put it, I doubt it. I can't remember anyone telling they get a feel good from M-Sten. Either they don't really feel it at all, or they feel worse, than without. Just thought I'd mention that.
 

BioHackJack

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Ahhh...okay. Yeah, you're right that's probably what he meant. Thanks for making that clearer to me. Yeah, the Trest makes me feel so good....I hope the M-Sten doesn't take from that too much. But, if it adds to strength and size gains without adding to the surge of estrogen from the Trest.....then, it'll be worth it.
 
Smont

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Don't taper your cycles.
..... You'll still be on cycle, so your body won't begin recovery, but you'll be missing out on gains.
It's a lose/lose.
This^ tapering off makes ZERO sense. Esters take time to clear out, they taper themselves off and the process of tapering off dosent help anything anyways. Kickstarters are for ppl who are relying on the gear to do all the work so they need to feel like something is happening the first couple weeks
 
Smont

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Or if you planned on a short ester + oral cycle that was only gonna last 6-8 weeks then I would say just blast everything from day 1
 

Animal1988

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Ahhh...okay. Yeah, you're right that's probably what he meant. Thanks for making that clearer to me. Yeah, the Trest makes me feel so good....I hope the M-Sten doesn't take from that too much. But, if it adds to strength and size gains without adding to the surge of estrogen from the Trest.....then, it'll be worth it.

Did you start yet bro?
 
UnrealMachine

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If one ISNT on TRT then the old oral kickstart is a intuitive way to retain more gains- front load the size and strength so that the body can leverage the strength and acclimate to the gains for a longer time before cessation.
The same oral kickstart (let’s say it’s Dbol or Superdrol) at the end of the cycle makes less since since the nascent gains will be harder to retain in PCT.
The logic is all compatible with the notion that higher doses or compounds should be added later in the cycle to keep the gains coming, but that stands independently.
 

BioHackJack

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Sorry Animal1988 and TheSwede, just seeing your question of whether I started or not.

Yes, I started in Dec and I've got 6 weeks left on my Trestolone cycle. I've just started the M-Sten to stack this morning and will continue it till the end (if my body tolerates it). I started a log but quit and neglected to start back up. I had gotten sick, went to the doc after a few days and found out it was the Flu, and ended up taking off from weights for two weeks. I actually stayed on the Trestolone the whole time I was sick not realizing that I was going to have such a long recovery....every day, I thought I'd be better in a couple days.

Strength and size gains are slow but increasing. I'm only now back up to my last on-cycle strength numbers. This time, I'm getting fat or bloated or something in my belly. Trying to cut the carbs but I'm lacking enough discipline to completely quit the bread and white rice as I should.

Only sides are...red face and neck. No spicy Trest nips this time at all. I'm even backed off a little on my Ralox and AI. Instead of EOD, I've been taking them every third day. I think the DIM every day is helping to get rid of estrogen better than I ever thought it would. Unfortunately, without the sky-high estrogen, the Good-Vibes and total joint relief that Trest gives isn't quite as obvious but it's still there.

Hope the M-Sten agrees with me for the rest of the cycle. So far so good this morning. Thanks for asking.

Oh yeah...my dose of the injectable Trest in case you're wondering is 25mg Every Day. I may or may not bump it up in a couple weeks.
 
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manifesto

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Sorry Animal1988 and TheSwede, just seeing your question of whether I started or not.

Yes, I started in Dec and I've got 6 weeks left on my Trestolone cycle. I've just started the M-Sten to stack this morning and will continue it till the end (if my body tolerates it). I started a log but quit and neglected to start back up. I had gotten sick, went to the doc after a few days and found out it was the Flu, and ended up taking off from weights for two weeks. I actually stayed on the Trestolone the whole time I was sick not realizing that I was going to have such a long recovery....every day, I thought I'd be better in a couple days.

Strength and size gains are slow but increasing. I'm only now back up to my last on-cycle strength numbers. This time, I'm getting fat or bloated or something in my belly. Trying to cut the carbs but I'm lacking enough discipline to completely quit the bread and white rice as I should.

Only sides are...red face and neck. No spicy Trest nips this time at all. I'm even backed off a little on my Ralox and AI. Instead of EOD, I've been taking them every third day. I think the DIM every day is helping to get rid of estrogen better than I ever thought it would. Unfortunately, without the sky-high estrogen, the Good-Vibes and total joint relief that Trest gives isn't quite as obvious but it's still there.

Hope the M-Sten agrees with me for the rest of the cycle. So far so good this morning. Thanks for asking.

Oh yeah...my dose of the injectable Trest in case you're wondering is 25mg Every Day. I may or may not bump it up in a couple weeks.
Are you on TRT ?
 

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