what is left with this ban.

[heavyiron]

Tylenol kills way more people and puts way more people in the hospital than hormones. The fact that Tylenol is easily accessible is proof of the hypocrisy.

 

[john6370]

How do you compare it to cough medicine? To actually do harm, even a bottle would be questionable
in its ability to cause much serious harm.

Now, you may wish to compare it to Tylenol or what not, that I can see a pretty good argument for but if you look at adverse cases with Tylenol, not many are that serious relative to how much of it is used by modern society.

Can one say the same about most of these orals? Eff no. Might not kill you per se but if adverse reactions happen, the impact is far longer is duration than the adverse effects reported for these OTC medications.

Should I also mention how due to people talking about these unclassified steroids which have essentially no real dosing or safety data behind them are being dosed by people based on what they read on message boards? Let's also be realistic here, MAJORITY have no idea how these things are affecting their health markers because they never bother to check. How the heck do you know that these things are as relatively benign as cough medicine? You drink a bottle of cough medicine, you're most likely to be ok the next day with perhaps a hangover. So no, not comparable.

I00% agree with you

 

[McCrew530]

I00% agree with you

Im not saying this in a confrontational matter (tone is so hard to figure out on the internet)
But why do you agree?

 

[heavyiron]

I00% agree with you

Dose Tylenol every day for 4-6 weeks and get labs. I did. My ALT and AST were sky high.

 

[Swolljaboi]

I used to use Robitussin to trip my balls off on my younger days. The active ingredient is a disassociative anaesthetic chemically related to PCP. Less than 5 bucks for a bottle of generic at your local grocery store. Still legal.

 

[McCrew530]

I used to use Robitussin to trip my balls off on my younger days. The active ingredient is a disassociative anaesthetic chemically related to PCP. Less than 5 bucks for a bottle of generic at your local grocery store. Still legal.

MMMM pcp now there is a pre-workout for ya!
but seriously DXM has messed up a couple of my friends lives when I was younger

 

[JeremyNG25]

K

I used to use Robitussin to trip my balls off on my younger days. The active ingredient is a disassociative anaesthetic chemically related to PCP. Less than 5 bucks for a bottle of generic at your local grocery store. Still legal.

Lol yup I did it too

 

[hardknock]

I would argue this point with the legality of Robitussin. This over the counter is legal yet it can produce a very noticeable high it can be addictive and can cause serious liver problems yet it is legal. I feel like the government is doing this not for the kids but for the simple fact that these substances have a been vilified and when you have a poor approval rating what do you do? You go back to your roots and champion a cause like getting rid of steroids because the pollute our beloved professional sports. Second by having these be legal the are allowing us to be strong and powerful. They are allowing us to legal be alpha and an oppressive government does not want that. They want submissive dumb servants who pay their taxes and keep their heads down. There are idiots amongst us but they are not the ones the government is worried about.

You honestly think people behind big GOV doesn't know that many people were already obtaining AAS illegally?
By having them legal or not the powers that be knows it isn't going to stop everyone that wants to be alpha.

Rowboin is old hat. It doesn't dominate the media so it's a lost cause to spend money trying to put it behind the counter. Pseudo is locked away though because of the meth craze. Yet, that doesn't stop thousands of people from cooking meth.

 

[hardknock]

This is why the law is a good thing high school kids will not be able to afford a cycle and of something that can mess them up

They will just get it from the guy or guys at the gym that bought 100 bottles. There are over 1,000 sites that sold PHs and DS...there is enough floating around to serve a medium size city.

 

[hardknock]

Dose Tylenol every day for 4-6 weeks and get labs. I did. My ALT and AST were sky high.

Why would you dose Tylenol everyday for 6 weeks unless you had a medical issue. At that point another alternative should be looked in to. The bottle does have a label warning that says if conditions persist past a certain point (10 days) consult a physician. Also it says overdosing may cause liver damage.

 

[heavyiron]

Why would you dose Tylenol everyday for 6 weeks unless you had a medical issue. At that point another alternative should be looked in to. The bottle does have a label warning that says if conditions persist past a certain point (10 days) consult a physician. Also it says overdosing may cause liver damage.

I'm comparing dosing a PH for 4 weeks with Tylenol. Most guys run PHs for that time frame so to be fair how would your body react to the same time frame with Tylenol which is legal? In other words to ban PH's but not Tylenol seems incredibly hypocritical IMHO.

 

[hardknock]

Gotcha.

 

[kissdadookie]

Sure one days usage of Robitussin would leave you hung over but what about if you used it every day for 4-6 weeks? Thats where I am drawing my comparison because the side effects can be sever and this is not illegal. http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/drugs/dxm.asp
While true most people do not do an appropriate amount of research before they start to throw stuff into their bodies. But also true is the amount of stupid people who dont cycle correctly and after a prolonged period of time are back to some what normal.
The point I am trying to make is that there are plenty of things out there that are abused and misused that arnt illegal yet our government, “under the guise of public safety” , demes these substances not OK for public consumption. There is something deeper to this than protecting the children and the stupid people.

Then you have an ADDICTION problem. If you know anything about addiction, it's a disease that is typically already inherent, not something that magically developes after a few recreational uses of a drug. That's why addicts should not smoke pot either even though pot is generally considered to be pretty benign.

I'm comparing dosing a PH for 4 weeks with Tylenol. Most guys run PHs for that time frame so to be fair how would your body react to the same time frame with Tylenol which is legal? In other words to ban PH's but not Tylenol seems incredibly hypocritical IMHO.

What would be the purpose of dosing Tylenol for that long? Your comparison is nonsensical.

Also, the point about Tylenol putting more people in the hospital and causing more deaths, there's also a whole lot more people that use the stuff which ups the rate in which idiots don't follow bottle instructions or intentionally take more than they should even though the warning label says it may cause death or what not.


Here's what many of you can't seem to grasp:

You must look at these things with the following perspective:

1) What purpose they serve.
2) What is the expected dosing parameters.
3) What is the expected usage length.

These OTC drugs that have been bought up, usage and usage length are clearly defined. Within those parameters they are pretty much safe. PH/DS on the other hand, dosage and dosage length is a crapshoot. Side effects also vary wildly from user to user frequently. That is also a crapshoot. It's highly likely there's a ton of people using them that actually are having negative health issues such as high BP which persists for essentially a few months (typically on cycle, PCT, plus a bit of time afterwards) which are not addressed or noticed because frankly there's more people out there which do not monitor any of these than there are of whom which do.

OTC medication have very low risk involved in use. Risk involved with anabolic use is going to be notably higher but it's likely not going to kill you. However, looking at things in such a manner that doesn't kill ='s a ok to use is asinine.

These bans makes the whole ordeal highly inconvenient more than anything else but claiming that it's unfair and that Tylenol and cold medicine is still sold OTC is not a logical or fair comparison.

 

[ambulldog]

I personally did not read the entire bill etc.

Is formestane gone for good?

 

[CallItKarma]

I personally did not read the entire bill etc.

Is formestane gone for good?

Yea it is

 

[Whacked]

Anyone selling MENT anymore? It is NOT banned but can't find any. It's LEGAL so can someone point me in the right direction?
PHF is out and no plans to re-stock from my understandfing

 

[icecoldsilver]

Humans do vary on an individual basis in their liver more than most other areas in their body.

There really is up to a 1000X difference in the amount of liver stress something has from one healthy person to the next.

You can not assume one thing like tylenol will affect you the same as something else, but it is always best not have multiple know stressors at same time (tylenol, alcohol, statins, etc).

Most doctors allow AST/ALT to go up to 3X normal before they get concerned on long term statin use before they reduce dose or take someone off of them for an example. Only way to really know is with labs.

The liver is an amazing and resiliant organ, but it also a very, very important one that you do not want to mess up.

 

[heavyiron]

What would be the purpose of dosing Tylenol for that long? Your comparison is nonsensical.

Also, the point about Tylenol putting more people in the hospital and causing more deaths, there's also a whole lot more people that use the stuff which ups the rate in which idiots don't follow bottle instructions or intentionally take more than they should even though the warning label says it may cause death or what not.


Here's what many of you can't seem to grasp:

You must look at these things with the following perspective:

1) What purpose they serve.
2) What is the expected dosing parameters.
3) What is the expected usage length.

These OTC drugs that have been bought up, usage and usage length are clearly defined. Within those parameters they are pretty much safe. PH/DS on the other hand, dosage and dosage length is a crapshoot. Side effects also vary wildly from user to user frequently. That is also a crapshoot. It's highly likely there's a ton of people using them that actually are having negative health issues such as high BP which persists for essentially a few months (typically on cycle, PCT, plus a bit of time afterwards) which are not addressed or noticed because frankly there's more people out there which do not monitor any of these than there are of whom which do.

OTC medication have very low risk involved in use. Risk involved with anabolic use is going to be notably higher but it's likely not going to kill you. However, looking at things in such a manner that doesn't kill ='s a ok to use is asinine.

These bans makes the whole ordeal highly inconvenient more than anything else but claiming that it's unfair and that Tylenol and cold medicine is still sold OTC is not a logical or fair comparison.

There are literally hundreds of purposes for using Tylenol long term. Right now my wife uses it for a bone spur. Her doc said take it every day and do physical therapy as one example. Anyway, not sure why you even asked that question as prescribing Tylenol is common.

I have been on Tylenol for hernia surgery, dental problems and other reasons but recently it was dental pain. I got my labs back December 3rd and my ALT, AST and Bilirubin were elevated. Its not a big deal since I have been down this road before. I did not exceed recommended doses at all.

Its common for Tylenol to stress the liver within dosing guidelines. This is common knowledge and some manufacturers have began lowering the doses of the tablets and/or recommending lower doses.

I'm not trying to demonize Tylenol in any way but it has been linked to liver problems many many times. The general public is getting educated and they are putting warnings on bottles. Anyway. I think taking our freedoms away is a problem. If I want to take hormones then as an adult I should have that right.

I started using steroids over 27 years ago off and on. I started when there were few laws or penalties. To see these freedoms taken and penalties increased over and over is discouraging. I know the effect of hormones. I have lived it. All this nonsense about saving the children by banning them is rubbish. According to the government I should be dead after my years of abuse. Hell even some guys here at AM have bought into this lie and they go overboard with support sups and PCT products. The whole thing is comical to me. When I was 20 years old we used zero support sups and zero PCT then went to the bar after the gym. I have lived this life for decades and the demonization of steroids is based in fantasy.

Will a few guys have problems with oral steroids? Yes, just like some guys have problems with a few weeks of Tylenol use. Its rare.

 

[kissdadookie]

There are literally hundreds of purposes for using Tylenol long term. Right now my wife uses it for a bone spur. Her doc said take it every day and do physical therapy as one example. Anyway, not sure why you even asked that question as prescribing Tylenol is common.

I have been on Tylenol for hernia surgery, dental problems and other reasons but recently it was dental pain. I got my labs back December 3rd and my ALT, AST and Bilirubin were elevated. Its not a big deal since I have been down this road before. I did not exceed recommended doses at all.

Its common for Tylenol to stress the liver within dosing guidelines. This is common knowledge and some manufacturers have began lowering the doses of the tablets and/or recommending lower doses.

I'm not trying to demonize Tylenol in any way but it has been linked to liver problems many many times. The general public is getting educated and they are putting warnings on bottles. Anyway. I think taking our freedoms away is a problem. If I want to take hormones then as an adult I should have that right.

I started using steroids over 27 years ago off and on. I started when there were few laws or penalties. To see these freedoms taken and penalties increased over and over is discouraging. I know the effect of hormones. I have lived it. All this nonsense about saving the children by banning them is rubbish. According to the government I should be dead after my years of abuse. Hell even some guys here at AM have bought into this lie and they go overboard with support sups and PCT products. The whole thing is comical to me. When I was 20 years old we used zero support sups and zero PCT then went to the bar after the gym. I have lived this life for decades and the demonization of steroids is based in fantasy.

Will a few guys have problems with oral steroids? Yes, just like some guys have problems with a few weeks of Tylenol use. Its rare.

It's not about demonization of steroids though that is a reality, but let's be honest, are these things dietary supplements? Eff no. Plain and simple. Mislabeled unclassified drugs? Yup. You don't see a problem with having unclassified drugs OTC which honestly don't have any actual medical reasons why most of the users should be using it tbh. Should we also allow people to buy klonopin and oxy OTC? How about adderal? It's a drug, should be treated as such. Having these things OTC was simply illegal in the first place, it just wasn't all that well enforced. The real complaint is honestly just the ease of obtaining these things are now harder, but that's like complaining about wanting to use recreational oxy without a prescription.

The only real foreseeable danger is that the broadness of the bill leaves the door open to possibly ban some actual dietary supplements. The argument of "I'm an adult, why can't I buy OTC mislabeled uncategorized drugs OTC?" Let's be honest, that's a weak argument.

Zyrtec or Claritin or both use to be script only, after a long long time on the market, they finally got approval to be OTC. It's not like drugs are willy nilly put on to then OTC market. Those are STILL categorized as actual drugs. Unlike these orals in which the manufacturer labels as dietary supplements when they are in fact mislabeled drugs.

I'm in no way saying people should not use these things, just that the argument of "but this takes away our freedom" is not something that would hold well as an argument because we can flip it around and say that for oxy for goodness sakes.

As for your Tylenol point, that's under doctor supervision. You can get test from a friendly HRT doctor which would work with you, but again, that's under supervision, not "go experiment willy nilly on your own." There is a distinction there.

As for your no PCT point, goodness sakes, we have good data out demonstrating anabolics use still resulting in hypogonadism 6-12 months after stoppage. Likely these people weren't complaining about these symptoms yet they existed without them knowing. There's that recent Bayor study in which they establish PCT protocols for medical professionals treating users of anabolics. Maybe you lucked out with not having PCT, you're n=1 though.

 

[Swolljaboi]

I'm so tired of people being so lazy and stupid. The amount of information available to the average American is so vast that it is ludicrous that anyone should ever unintentionally misuse anything.

I'm in the "legalize everything and let nature take its course" camp. Anyone stupid enough to jack themselves up on any drug deserves what they get for not educating themselves properly.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm so tired of people being so lazy and stupid. The amount of information available to the average American is so vast that it is ludicrous that anyone should ever unintentionally misuse anything.

I'm in the "legalize everything and let nature take its course" camp. Anyone stupid enough to jack themselves up on any drug deserves what they get for not educating themselves properly.

So if someone took the normal dosage of an OTC designer and ended up in the hospital with liver damage because of their personal individual body chemistry reaction, then it is their fault?.

 

[T-Bone]

Or, what if they had an un-diagnosed liver condition?.

 

[kissdadookie]

I'm so tired of people being so lazy and stupid. The amount of information available to the average American is so vast that it is ludicrous that anyone should ever unintentionally misuse anything.

I'm in the "legalize everything and let nature take its course" camp. Anyone stupid enough to jack themselves up on any drug deserves what they get for not educating themselves properly.

How about actual addicts whom have the disease of addiction? It's pretty much out of their control that they get easily addicted to substances, not due to strictly idiocy.

Here's the thing, if a drug is a drug, it needs to be labelled and categorized as such. These things were never really legal to begin with. You want them to be OTC legal drugs? Put up the funds to make them so. Big pharma stopped trying to develop most of this stuff that have been banned because tbh, it's such a fringe demographic that uses them and they are not using them due to a medical necessity.

As for big pharma conspiracies, it's not much of a conspiracy. Doctors happily accept samples by big pharma not to necessarily push product, but instead, these samples end up being FREE medication for the patient. Doctors also prescribe off label medication use not because it's some big pharma conspiracy, the fact of the matter is that each claim a drug makes must be vetted and to get such claims validated with the FDA, it's several millions of dollars (if not billions) PER CLAIM. So what does pharma do? They apply and pay for the claim that would serve the widest demographic and then doctors eventually learn how to use these medications for other purposes (which is not illegal but if anything goes wrong, the doctor is liable).

For goodness sakes, these are drugs being sold as dietary supplements. Please explain to us what dietary necessity there is to let's say, take epistane? Perhaps self diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer? Oh come on.

 

[harbonah]

Then you have an ADDICTION problem. If you know anything about addiction, it's a disease that is typically already inherent, not something that magically developes after a few recreational uses of a drug. That's why addicts should not smoke pot either even though pot is generally considered to be pretty benign.



What would be the purpose of dosing Tylenol for that long? Your comparison is nonsensical.

Also, the point about Tylenol putting more people in the hospital and causing more deaths, there's also a whole lot more people that use the stuff which ups the rate in which idiots don't follow bottle instructions or intentionally take more than they should even though the warning label says it may cause death or what not.


Here's what many of you can't seem to grasp:

You must look at these things with the following perspective:

1) What purpose they serve.
2) What is the expected dosing parameters.
3) What is the expected usage length.

These OTC drugs that have been bought up, usage and usage length are clearly defined. Within those parameters they are pretty much safe. PH/DS on the other hand, dosage and dosage length is a crapshoot. Side effects also vary wildly from user to user frequently. That is also a crapshoot. It's highly likely there's a ton of people using them that actually are having negative health issues such as high BP which persists for essentially a few months (typically on cycle, PCT, plus a bit of time afterwards) which are not addressed or noticed because frankly there's more people out there which do not monitor any of these than there are of whom which do.

OTC medication have very low risk involved in use. Risk involved with anabolic use is going to be notably higher but it's likely not going to kill you. However, looking at things in such a manner that doesn't kill ='s a ok to use is asinine.

These bans makes the whole ordeal highly inconvenient more than anything else but claiming that it's unfair and that Tylenol and cold medicine is still sold OTC is not a logical or fair comparison.

I can tell you for certain many doctors put people on Tylenol for 4-6 weeks when I do a search I find doctors telling people to take it everyday for tendinitis and cases of 2 years plus.. Sorry I should probably explain I work with EHR data..

Also to addiction sorry but I hate this excuse I see it all over our med notes and if you ban something based off of simply a fear people who have addiction potential will use said chemical you would not have anything at all left literally food is a great example in the 40 CMH counties I have access to I can pull up roughly 1000 cases of food addiction....I think we need a call to arms we must ban food... And come on cigarettes...?

 

[BCseacow83]

How about actual addicts whom have the disease of addiction? It's pretty much out of their control that they get easily addicted to substances, not due to strictly idiocy.

Here's the thing, if a drug is a drug, it needs to be labelled and categorized as such. These things were never really legal to begin with. You want them to be OTC legal drugs? Put up the funds to make them so. Big pharma stopped trying to develop most of this stuff that have been banned because tbh, it's such a fringe demographic that uses them and they are not using them due to a medical necessity.

As for big pharma conspiracies, it's not much of a conspiracy. Doctors happily accept samples by big pharma not to necessarily push product, but instead, these samples end up being FREE medication for the patient. Doctors also prescribe off label medication use not because it's some big pharma conspiracy, the fact of the matter is that each claim a drug makes must be vetted and to get such claims validated with the FDA, it's several millions of dollars (if not billions) PER CLAIM. So what does pharma do? They apply and pay for the claim that would serve the widest demographic and then doctors eventually learn how to use these medications for other purposes (which is not illegal but if anything goes wrong, the doctor is liable).

For goodness sakes, these are drugs being sold as dietary supplements. Please explain to us what dietary necessity there is to let's say, take epistane? Perhaps self diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer? Oh come on.

Well the current way we treat addicts does absolutely nothing to correct the problem. Sticking people in prison does **** all to improve the situation. So yes I am for legal access even to the hard stuff. Take the money saved on law enforcement and use it for treatment. Also having legal access to hard drugs eliminates the crime associated with distribution and the crime associated with addicts having to feed a ridiculously overpriced habit(coke/heroin do NOT cost more to produce than alcohol and tobacco.) Making things illegal does nothing to change demand or use. It is not working, never has and never will. The issue is no politician will come out against the war on drugs until they are out of office for fear of the adds the opposition will run. No one has the balls to call a failed war what it is.

An addict is an addict regardless of what laws there are and how they TRY to restrict access. So we need to try a different approach. You can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prison what makes you think they will ever be able to rid a "free" society of them.

I do agree 100% that the way to sell these never should have been as supplements. They are not even close to meeting the requirements of DSHEA. The exceptions being the DHEA's. These hormones should have been sold via a limited network over the net and never should have been on the shelf at the local supplement shop. Greed as always took over.

 

[McCrew530]

Aids is a disease the cancer is a disease addiction is not a disease. Addiction is a lack of discipline. If a person with aids goes you know what I'm not going to do today? Have Aids. Guess what not cured. If an alcoholic goes you know what I'm not going to drink any more guess what they aren't going to drink. People with addiction issues have become reliant on those substances due to mental weakness not because they are sick. They have used the substance as a crutch. Sure the body can become dependent on the substance but that is a chemical reaction. Our bodies are reliant on water would you say that a have a water disease? The entente addiction is a disease standpoint is garbage and a ploy that weak minded people have used to justify their short comings. I wish cancer was just as easily cured by going to a meeting. Maybe I would still have all the family I lost to that real disease.

 

[CallItKarma]

So...are there any other companies out there that are going to continue producing non-listed ph's until they become listed? There's obviously a ton of compounds that weren't specifically named...I would imagine some of the really obscure ones would be g2g for at least another year or so. Companies have been playing this game for at least a decade now, does it really end here?

 

[McCrew530]

So...are there any other companies out there that are going to continue producing non-listed ph's until they become listed? There's obviously a ton of compounds that weren't specifically named...I would imagine some of the really obscure ones would be g2g for at least another year or so. Companies have been playing this game for at least a decade now, does it really end here?

No it doesn't end here it just pushes the use a bit further underground because now they can't be advertised as muscle builders so the hormonal industry will need to find a way to effectively promote their products without stepping over the"acts like testosterone" line

 

[kissdadookie]

I can tell you for certain many doctors put people on Tylenol for 4-6 weeks when I do a search I find doctors telling people to take it everyday for tendinitis and cases of 2 years plus.. Sorry I should probably explain I work with EHR data..

Also to addiction sorry but I hate this excuse I see it all over our med notes and if you ban something based off of simply a fear people who have addiction potential will use said chemical you would not have anything at all left literally food is a great example in the 40 CMH counties I have access to I can pull up roughly 1000 cases of food addiction....I think we need a call to arms we must ban food... And come on cigarettes...?

Addiction is a clinically diagnosed disease. Unfortunately the underlying cause is not one simple cause most of the time. But it is a diagnosed disease. It doesn't have anything to do with will power. You not being able to make a differentiation here and tossing it into overeating is idiotic to say the least.

As for doctors prescribing Tylenol treatment, some doctors granted are idiots. The fact of the matter however is that even a doctor would not self diagnose themselves, us taking these unclassified mislabeled drugs are actually the equivalent of self diagnosis and them being sold together with relatively benign actual dietary supplements makes them have the visage of being as safe as the creatine, plain and simple.

Basically, what you're doing is mishmashing willy nilly misdiagnosis with people and self control etc. when talking about food addiction.

Regardless, long term Tylenol use is usually monitored by a physician in the first place, androgen use especially the OTC stuff is monitored by... no one.

 

[kissdadookie]

Aids is a disease the cancer is a disease addiction is not a disease. Addiction is a lack of discipline. If a person with aids goes you know what I'm not going to do today? Have Aids. Guess what not cured. If an alcoholic goes you know what I'm not going to drink any more guess what they aren't going to drink. People with addiction issues have become reliant on those substances due to mental weakness not because they are sick. They have used the substance as a crutch. Sure the body can become dependent on the substance but that is a chemical reaction. Our bodies are reliant on water would you say that a have a water disease? The entente addiction is a disease standpoint is garbage and a ploy that weak minded people have used to justify their short comings. I wish cancer was just as easily cured by going to a meeting. Maybe I would still have all the family I lost to that real disease.

Oh good lord. You making this statement essentially makes everything you say null and void. LOL.

Go learn about what true addiction is for goodness sakes. A lot of it is actually genetic, underlying trauma, etc. Has nothing to do with self discipline.

 

[kissdadookie]

Well the current way we treat addicts does absolutely nothing to correct the problem. Sticking people in prison does **** all to improve the situation. So yes I am for legal access even to the hard stuff. Take the money saved on law enforcement and use it for treatment. Also having legal access to hard drugs eliminates the crime associated with distribution and the crime associated with addicts having to feed a ridiculously overpriced habit(coke/heroin do NOT cost more to produce than alcohol and tobacco.) Making things illegal does nothing to change demand or use. It is not working, never has and never will. The issue is no politician will come out against the war on drugs until they are out of office for fear of the adds the opposition will run. No one has the balls to call a failed war what it is.

An addict is an addict regardless of what laws there are and how they TRY to restrict access. So we need to try a different approach. You can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prison what makes you think they will ever be able to rid a "free" society of them.

I do agree 100% that the way to sell these never should have been as supplements. They are not even close to meeting the requirements of DSHEA. The exceptions being the DHEA's. These hormones should have been sold via a limited network over the net and never should have been on the shelf at the local supplement shop. Greed as always took over.

Good post and thanks for acknowledging the fact
that what we really need to do for actual addicts is to improve treatment rather than waste resources throwing them in jails.

 

[harbonah]

Addiction is a clinically diagnosed disease. Unfortunately the underlying cause is not one simple cause most of the time. But it is a diagnosed disease. It doesn't have anything to do with will power. You not being able to make a differentiation here and tossing it into overeating is idiotic to say the least.

As for doctors prescribing Tylenol treatment, some doctors granted are idiots. The fact of the matter however is that even a doctor would not self diagnose themselves, us taking these unclassified mislabeled drugs are actually the equivalent of self diagnosis and them being sold together with relatively benign actual dietary supplements makes them have the visage of being as safe as the creatine, plain and simple.

Basically, what you're doing is mishmashing willy nilly misdiagnosis with people and self control etc. when talking about food addiction.

Regardless, long term Tylenol use is usually monitored by a physician in the first place, androgen use especially the OTC stuff is monitored by... no one.

My point is simply you can be addicted to absolutely anything as you yourself pointed out with marihuana use a generally non addictive substance... Now if we write laws simply to protect addicts everything will and should be illegal with your logic..

 

[McCrew530]

Oh good lord. You making this statement essentially makes everything you say null and void. LOL.

Go learn about what true addiction is for goodness sakes. A lot of it is actually genetic, underlying trauma, etc. Has nothing to do with self discipline.

I am going to quote something then link you the entire article if you would like to open your mind a tad to the notion of "addiction"

"Addiction has very little in common with diseases. It is a group of behaviors, not an illness on its own. It cannot be explained by any disease process. Perhaps worst of all, calling addiction a "disease" interferes with exploring or accepting new understandings of the nature of addiction."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-heart-addiction/201112/is-addiction-really-disease

 

[McCrew530]

Oh good lord. You making this statement essentially makes everything you say null and void. LOL.

Go learn about what true addiction is for goodness sakes. A lot of it is actually genetic, underlying trauma, etc. Has nothing to do with self discipline.

Quick question, and this may clear up a lot of misunderstandings, but do you view a disease and a disorder as the same thing?

 

[Jackedjack]

Addictions certainly do have genetic components. In addition addictions can be physical as demonstrated through a variety of drugs. Best thing to not be an addict is never to touch the drug. Now to the drugs that are mentally addictive, yes there are individual genetic components, but will power does play a role. My parents are addicted to cigs. They don't have a disease; they are just not mentally ready to quit smoking. In this case will power is greater than any genetic predisposition that makes them be an addict.

 

[heavyiron]

It's not about demonization of steroids though that is a reality, but let's be honest, are these things dietary supplements? Eff no. Plain and simple. Mislabeled unclassified drugs? Yup. You don't see a problem with having unclassified drugs OTC which honestly don't have any actual medical reasons why most of the users should be using it tbh. Should we also allow people to buy klonopin and oxy OTC? How about adderal? It's a drug, should be treated as such. Having these things OTC was simply illegal in the first place, it just wasn't all that well enforced. The real complaint is honestly just the ease of obtaining these things are now harder, but that's like complaining about wanting to use recreational oxy without a prescription.

The only real foreseeable danger is that the broadness of the bill leaves the door open to possibly ban some actual dietary supplements. The argument of "I'm an adult, why can't I buy OTC mislabeled uncategorized drugs OTC?" Let's be honest, that's a weak argument.

Zyrtec or Claritin or both use to be script only, after a long long time on the market, they finally got approval to be OTC. It's not like drugs are willy nilly put on to then OTC market. Those are STILL categorized as actual drugs. Unlike these orals in which the manufacturer labels as dietary supplements when they are in fact mislabeled drugs.

I'm in no way saying people should not use these things, just that the argument of "but this takes away our freedom" is not something that would hold well as an argument because we can flip it around and say that for oxy for goodness sakes.

As for your Tylenol point, that's under doctor supervision. You can get test from a friendly HRT doctor which would work with you, but again, that's under supervision, not "go experiment willy nilly on your own." There is a distinction there.

As for your no PCT point, goodness sakes, we have good data out demonstrating anabolics use still resulting in hypogonadism 6-12 months after stoppage. Likely these people weren't complaining about these symptoms yet they existed without them knowing. There's that recent Bayor study in which they establish PCT protocols for medical professionals treating users of anabolics. Maybe you lucked out with not having PCT, you're n=1 though.

Sounds like you have it all figured out brother. Good luck to you.

I'm going to keep taking hormones no matter what the government does and keep fighting for our freedoms to use. In addition to repping for IML I'm also an admin on some the the largest open source AAS boards on the net. I imagine that gives me a bit different perspective than most.

As you get older you realize that the government takes freedoms and puts you under their control in so many ways unless of course you are one of the sheep that is already blind. Think about how much the government controls you and start writing it all down. If you are honest the list becomes enormous. Land of the free is a laughable expression once you take the blinders off.

 

[BCseacow83]

Sounds like you have it all figured out brother. Good luck to you.

I'm going to keep taking hormones no matter what the government does and keep fighting for our freedoms to use. In addition to repping for IML I'm also an admin on some the the largest open source AAS boards on the net. I imagine that gives me a bit different perspective than most.

As you get older you realize that the government takes freedoms and puts you under their control in so many ways unless of course you are one of the sheep that is already blind. Think about how much the government controls you and start writing it all down. If you are honest the list becomes enormous. Land of the free is a laughable expression once you take the blinders off.

We live in a society with freedoms not a free society. You can really never have a completely free society where you are allowed to do what ever you damn well please as that would not be a society at all it would be chaos(the simpsons did an episode to this effect.)

While maybe addiction it self does not meet the definition of disease the changes made to the brain and it's functions due to drug use certainly fit the definition of a breakdown of structure and or function. No one is ever cured of addiction by going to meetings they are merely managing there addiction much like insulin does not cure diabetes it merely treats it. Perhaps not a physical disease like but it certainly is as real as all the psychiatric illnesses recognized as mental diseases.

 

[heavyiron]

We live in a society with freedoms not a free society. You can really never have a completely free society where you are allowed to do what ever you damn well please as that would not be a society at all it would be chaos(the simpsons did an episode to this effect.)

While maybe addiction it self does not meet the definition of disease the changes made to the brain and it's functions due to drug use certainly fit the definition of a breakdown of structure and or function. No one is ever cured of addiction by going to meetings they are merely managing there addiction much like insulin does not cure diabetes it merely treats it. Perhaps not a physical disease like but it certainly is as real as all the psychiatric illnesses recognized as mental diseases.

Of course we want laws but I think we need to take a step back and ask some questions here. Why is it illegal for me, a grown adult male to buy a bottle of Halodrol and consume it when any 16 year old girl can get hormones without her parents consent and completely disable her ability to get pregnant disrupting her reproductive cycle?

Because the government says so?

Why did the government say selling alcohol was illegal during prohibition but its legal now?

Why can I legally take 15 Tylenol tabs and wipe out my liver but the Washington bureaucrats say taking 2 caps of PH's is far too dangerous for society?

Our freedoms are being eroded and taken from us and many times there is no good reason.

Not sure your part about addictions was meant for me brother.

 

[McCrew530]

We live in a society with freedoms not a free society. You can really never have a completely free society where you are allowed to do what ever you damn well please as that would not be a society at all it would be chaos(the simpsons did an episode to this effect.)

While maybe addiction it self does not meet the definition of disease the changes made to the brain and it's functions due to drug use certainly fit the definition of a breakdown of structure and or function. No one is ever cured of addiction by going to meetings they are merely managing there addiction much like insulin does not cure diabetes it merely treats it. Perhaps not a physical disease like but it certainly is as real as all the psychiatric illnesses recognized as mental diseases.

My main argument for this would be the differentiation between a disease and a disorder. While both require treatment a disease can be cured, while a disorder takes work on the part of the person who has it. Lets take something like a speech impediment. This can be a genetic trait that is treatable through speech therapy. No one would classify a speech impediment as a disease. yet this is genetic. In the same class you could qualify an accent. An accent is a learned pattern of speech through your social interaction. Again that can be modified if a person wants to work on it. Again no would qualify an accent as a disease.
So why would one classify an addiction like alcohol that can be either a proposed inherited trait or an outcome of your social interactions as a disease when the learning pattern can be modified on pure will alone? In the Same regard If one were to say be in Africa and through your social interaction were to unknowingly contract Ebola, an outside stimuli. Would some one say that is a disorder? No it is a disease that through medication and a solid immune system can that only be cured. There is a fine line between a disorder and a disease but classifying something like addiction which is more often than not a learned coping mechanism is holding back the recovery of the people who have trained them selves to negatively deal with certain situations. I 100% agree with the statement that addicts should not be thrown in jail with the violent criminals. But the first step to their recovery is knowing that they alone hold the key to their behavior modification and that they need to learn how to use the tools that are given to them for sobriety because they obviously lack the discipline to work on them selves by them selves

 

[Jiigzz]

Whats addiction got to do with this?

This thread is pure speculation. Most of the "PHs" available are just active steroids formed through legal loopholes. They can be bought online without any age restriction nor do they indicate that a non OTC SERM is needed after the cycle ends.
They are not safe; elevated BP is more of a health concern than your liver. Arterial damage can promote atherosclerosis which is a long term health detriment. But short term liver damage is a concern unless support supps are run alongside

Yes, they can be used relatively safely but they dont all have safety data, they are not age restricted, they are mostly active steroids that affect health markers negatively and require grey area products to recover from.

The govt did not ban them because they make you strong and large and they are afraid of that; I mean seriously? That one made me laugh.

Forum people assume the whole world knows about how to run OHs safely but the reality is, is that unless you are a forum member you have zero idea what a SERM is or that research even needs to be conducted prior to running these compounds. They do not have that disclaimer on the bottle

 

[dezzy84]

Subbed. I want DMZ before it's all gone.

 

[Turbo6GN]

Whats addiction got to do with this? This thread is pure speculation. Most of the "PHs" available are just active steroids formed through legal loopholes. They can be bought online without any age restriction nor do they indicate that a non OTC SERM is needed after the cycle ends. They are not safe; elevated BP is more of a health concern than your liver. Arterial damage can promote atherosclerosis which is a long term health detriment. But short term liver damage is a concern unless support supps are run alongside Yes, they can be used relatively safely but they dont all have safety data, they are not age restricted, they are mostly active steroids that affect health markers negatively and require grey area products to recover from. The govt did not ban them because they make you strong and large and they are afraid of that; I mean seriously? That one made me laugh. Forum people assume the whole world knows about how to run OHs safely but the reality is, is that unless you are a forum member you have zero idea what a SERM is or that research even needs to be conducted prior to running these compounds. They do not have that disclaimer on the bottle

Strong post. One of the most sensible things I've read in a while.

 

[fightnews]

Sorry but this law is complete crap and this is possibly one of the worst defenses of it that I've seen. On the list of all the kinds of stupid things that high school kids are likely to do pro hormones are probably very near the bottom of the list. I'm 51 years old, I don't need the government to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to take nor should my options be restricted by or limited because of what some idiot high school kid "might" do. Quite frankly the average high school football player who wants to get big will just go right to AAS anyway. I stocked up on more product that I will likely ever get to use just on principle.

keep an eye on your liver boss, no joke

 

[fightnews]

Wait, you mean that methylated halo wasn't already an AAS? Oh come on.

Here's the reality, these are indeed unclassified drugs (well, they are obviously now technically classified). These can also be idiotically misused and people have been doing that with most of the adverse effects being reported by grown arse men at hospitals and what not (the ones which have been documented at least, sure there are many cases where the patient does not inform the doctor of what they were really doing).

Idiots are amongst us and the biggest idiots are actually adults. The negative to all this is that it makes access harder for us and thus a choice we've had previously being taken away. The positive to all of this is that this makes access harder so you reduce the negative impacts there will be with idiots abusing this chit. It is absolutely asinine to go rambling on about how this is 110% negative and it's our choice to put whatever we want in our bodies. If that away the case, let's make adderal and klonopin and oxy and ambien OTC then. When people start abusing it and end up with social problems, just go "oh, those are just idiots." Mind you, these are drugs which are already being abused by many.

Point is, let's be real here, there's far more idiots in the world in regards to these things then there are responsible ones.

For goodness sakes, you're implying that these now banned compounds are not AAS based on your preconceived notion that unless you pin it, it's not AAS. You're also not alone in thinking that, but that right there in and of itself only demonstrates why it's not a good idea to have these unclassified steroids be available OTC. There's no damn difference between pinning and taking these pills apart from the fact that the oral are actually far harsher on your body than pinning in many cases.

Two thing they should ban these methelated ones and un ban the original safe ones.

Bolded: This is where you're wrong. You can absolutely use these methylated compounds exactly as directed and still have major health issues especially liver hepatotoxicity. And im not talking about an odd case here or there, some of the stuff is bad news

 

[fightnews]

Tylenol kills way more people and puts way more people in the hospital than hormones. The fact that Tylenol is easily accessible is proof of the hypocrisy.

way more people actually take tylenol too so its not a fair comparison?

 

[fightnews]

There are literally hundreds of purposes for using Tylenol long term. Right now my wife uses it for a bone spur. Her doc said take it every day and do physical therapy as one example. Anyway, not sure why you even asked that question as prescribing Tylenol is common.

I have been on Tylenol for hernia surgery, dental problems and other reasons but recently it was dental pain. I got my labs back December 3rd and my ALT, AST and Bilirubin were elevated. Its not a big deal since I have been down this road before. I did not exceed recommended doses at all.

Its common for Tylenol to stress the liver within dosing guidelines. This is common knowledge and some manufacturers have began lowering the doses of the tablets and/or recommending lower doses.

I'm not trying to demonize Tylenol in any way but it has been linked to liver problems many many times. The general public is getting educated and they are putting warnings on bottles. Anyway. I think taking our freedoms away is a problem. If I want to take hormones then as an adult I should have that right.

I started using steroids over 27 years ago off and on. I started when there were few laws or penalties. To see these freedoms taken and penalties increased over and over is discouraging. I know the effect of hormones. I have lived it. All this nonsense about saving the children by banning them is rubbish. According to the government I should be dead after my years of abuse. Hell even some guys here at AM have bought into this lie and they go overboard with support sups and PCT products. The whole thing is comical to me. When I was 20 years old we used zero support sups and zero PCT then went to the bar after the gym. I have lived this life for decades and the demonization of steroids is based in fantasy.

Will a few guys have problems with oral steroids? Yes, just like some guys have problems with a few weeks of Tylenol use. Its rare.

You'd be better off with advil

 

[fightnews]

There are literally hundreds of purposes for using Tylenol long term. Right now my wife uses it for a bone spur. Her doc said take it every day and do physical therapy as one example. Anyway, not sure why you even asked that question as prescribing Tylenol is common.

I have been on Tylenol for hernia surgery, dental problems and other reasons but recently it was dental pain. I got my labs back December 3rd and my ALT, AST and Bilirubin were elevated. Its not a big deal since I have been down this road before. I did not exceed recommended doses at all.

Its common for Tylenol to stress the liver within dosing guidelines. This is common knowledge and some manufacturers have began lowering the doses of the tablets and/or recommending lower doses.

I'm not trying to demonize Tylenol in any way but it has been linked to liver problems many many times. The general public is getting educated and they are putting warnings on bottles. Anyway. I think taking our freedoms away is a problem. If I want to take hormones then as an adult I should have that right.

I started using steroids over 27 years ago off and on. I started when there were few laws or penalties. To see these freedoms taken and penalties increased over and over is discouraging. I know the effect of hormones. I have lived it. All this nonsense about saving the children by banning them is rubbish. According to the government I should be dead after my years of abuse. Hell even some guys here at AM have bought into this lie and they go overboard with support sups and PCT products. The whole thing is comical to me. When I was 20 years old we used zero support sups and zero PCT then went to the bar after the gym. I have lived this life for decades and the demonization of steroids is based in fantasy.

Will a few guys have problems with oral steroids? Yes, just like some guys have problems with a few weeks of Tylenol use. Its rare.

You'd be better off with advil

 

[john6370]

I think this is what most people agree on.
1. Methy type are not safe and it is a good thing they are gone
2. Most people can just buy these and take them without being educated and can f themselves up
3. Some very popular youtube lifters are in favor of law
4. People I talk to that are on real gear and ones that took things like SD agree that the law is a good thing.

 

[reps4jesus]

I think this is what most people agree on.
1. Methy type are not safe and it is a good thing they are gone
2. Most people can just buy these and take them without being educated and can f themselves up
3. Some very popular youtube lifters are in favor of law
4. People I talk to that are on real gear and ones that took things like SD agree that the law is a good thing.

No, most people do not agree with this. Wow, guys on YouTube are happy? Do you realize how stupid that sounds? And iv taken "real gear" and also SD and I can tell you SD is most definitely real gear. Its also one of the most effective steroids ever created and used in moderation is a great thing.

 

[micro2000]

Banning products under the authoritarian notion of protecting people from their own choices is how individual liberty dies. Once the bureaucrat and the hyperprotective soccer mom gains power through law the individual loses the right of self determination and is only allowed to act as others see fit.

Bans do not make the world safer. They incentivize men to become criminals or seek alternatives that may be less safe than the original choice.