Water IM shots need to know

MadStax said:
Four hours is excessive! 30-45 minutes should be good.
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Nah bro, I'm doing it for gut health mostly.

But also, seeing how Tmax of GH when pinned SQ is still app 3h and when pinned IM 1 1/2h (or what is it?), 45m after pin is not all you need. Your blood GH levels will be at it's max at around 1.5h - 3h. So yes, you need to fast for about 4h in the am in order to fully utilize your GH. If you pin and then immediately do cardio and 45m after pin you eat, well, ... this is far from optimal.
 
Mathb33 said:
@Jinsun why the hell would you do int fasting during a bulk man... 🤦‍♂️ are you doing this because you think it’ll help you stay leaner and not get too much BF?
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Gut health bro. I'm seriously bloated and have some sort of an bacteria imbalance or something. I wake up bloated like you probably look after a 2k meal.
 
Jinsun said:
Gut health bro. I'm seriously bloated and have some sort of an bacteria imbalance or something. I wake up bloated like you probably look after a 2k meal.
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Ha **** yeah that’s the only reason I would do int fasting too haha good point lol. Hey as silly as it sounds tru 10-15g of glutamine first thing in the AM. A couple high level coaches swear by it and i watched of pod cast of Phil viz and he sold me the idea.
 
Mathb33 said:
@Jinsun why the hell would you do int fasting during a bulk man... 🤦‍♂️ are you doing this because you think it’ll help you stay leaner and not get too much BF?
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I am always technically doing an IF. Somewhere between 12/12 and 14/10. When cutting I'll even push 18/6. My guts do better this way as well. I have a lot of digestive/reflux issues that I've had to work around.

As to the four hours after pinning, my understanding was that you only needed to avoid the insulin spike coinciding with the GH spike. That's why it's recommended to wait 30-45 min before eating. If you have evident to refute this, I'd love to see it!
 
Mathb33 said:
Ha **** yeah that’s the only reason I would do int fasting too haha good point lol. Hey as silly as it sounds tru 10-15g of glutamine first thing in the AM. A couple high level coaches swear by it and i watched of pod cast of Phil viz and he sold me the idea.
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Yeah, already tried that. 30g actually. Didn't work. Now I'm trying bpc. I'm going to see specialist soon. Will probably need take some antibiotics or something, idk ... I think I fucked up with some antidepressant I tried taking (vortioxetine). I had the runs for two months straight when I was forcing my self with it. It was really bad.
 
MadStax said:
I am always technically doing an IF. Somewhere between 12/12 and 14/10. When cutting I'll even push 18/6. My guts do better this way as well. I have a lot of digestive/reflux issues that I've had to work around.

As to the four hours after pinning, my understanding was that you only needed to avoid the insulin spike coinciding with the GH spike. That's why it's recommended to wait 30-45 min before eating. If you have evident to refute this, I'd love to see it!
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I thought we were talking about doing fasted cardio with GH for enhanced fat loss ... But anyway, the GH spike is, as I said, at the highest around the 2h mark. Tmax means time after administration that the drug is at it's highest concentration. Look at the graphs I posted in the first page. You'll see the peak at around the 2.5h mark for SC and 2h mark for IM. I don't know however, if insulin spikes sooner then this. It's not necessary that the insulin's spike coincides exactly to GH's spike ...
 
Yes, when combined with fasted cardio, I believe the GH will be more effective at fat burning if you wait 3-4 hours instead of 30-45 minutes. If mass building is your main goal, eating within the 30-45 minute window will be most effective. I figured with a recomp, lean gains would be the main goal.

As for increasing your risk of type 2 diabetes, this might be possible if you're predisposed to the condition, but I don't believe it's been proven.
 
24 hr or longer fasts i always end up losing a sh1t ton of muscle, shrinking away into nothingness
Bad idea as far as physique goals go unless you are doing it solely for health reasons.

used to do them because i believed it will help speed up fat loss, nope.

You can try dosing gh at 4 iu or more on those 24 hr fasts maybe it will help prevent catabolism to an extent.



When i am off everything my body doesnt want to go below certain bf, if i start to dip below 12ish % i mainly start to lose muscke no matter what i do.
Just like when you bulk naturally after a certain size all you gain is fat. And that level seems to be be greatly reduced compared to when i was in my late teens! Simply cant maintain 17 inch arms naturally with respectable bf anymore!
Phuk genetics!
 
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Jinsun said:
Indeed. I am trying to bulk now, and am doing 12 / 12 IF. With all my skating, combined with weight lifting, I need 4k+ to bulk. I tried 8 / 16 first, and that was impossible bro, so then I tried 14 / 10 and eventually landed at 12 / 12.



But are you also on an aas cycle? Otherwise, yeah, this is what I had in mind.



I think fasting is so healthy and something that we usually don't do. It's really good for gut health. Especially when bulking, my digestion always worsen, I get totally bloated and fart a lot. This time around, doing 12 / 12 seems to be helping a lot. But I think 24h fasts are not a bad idea to do time to time. And maybe even longer ones once a year ...
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yeah my fasting is purely health and longevity based (and I’m fully accepting of the fact it will impact on the success of my bulk, but I’m prepared to trade slower bulking progress for overall health and longevity which aligns to my overall goals).

ive done plenty of 36 hour fasts and did a 5 day water fast last year - wasn’t for fat loss (and actually didn’t really lose much weight) but for health reasons (I wouldn’t do 24 hour or longer fasts on a bulk).

we know that mtor reduces lifespan so constantly activating that pathway Isn’t a great idea unless ones goal is purely building mass imo
 
Whisky said:
we know that mtor reduces lifespan so constantly activating that pathway Isn’t a great idea unless ones goal is purely building mass imo
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This.

But it's not just mtor. Especially on a bulk, your gut and digestion is constantly stuffed up, which leads to all kind of problems. If we are talking about body building and fitness, overall health and looks matter and having a bloated belly is ugly af. Health also suffers a lot. Brain gut axis is another thing to consider. Anyway, gut health is very important is what I'm trying to say : )
 
Whisky said:
yeah my fasting is purely health and longevity based (and I’m fully accepting of the fact it will impact on the success of my bulk, but I’m prepared to trade slower bulking progress for overall health and longevity which aligns to my overall goals).

ive done plenty of 36 hour fasts and did a 5 day water fast last year - wasn’t for fat loss (and actually didn’t really lose much weight) but for health reasons (I wouldn’t do 24 hour or longer fasts on a bulk).

we know that mtor reduces lifespan so constantly activating that pathway Isn’t a great idea unless ones goal is purely building mass imo
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Hm so basically when maintaining (off cycle when i know i cant gain sh1t anyway or if cutting) implement some form of IF stl like 14/10 at least preferably? To maximize health and longevity, and only eat all the time while bulking.

To get the best of both worlds.




Also, does constantly activating mtor make your biological clock run faster? Or does it merely reduce the lifespan at the tail end (without aging you faster)?

I mean the 2 are correlated obviously but depending on the mechanism which causes the lifespan to shorten it may be one or the other (heart attack vs chronically elevated cortisol for example, both shorten the lifespan but one just takes you out momentarily while the other also makes you age faster)

If you all get what i am saying.
 
5 pins in on this GH cycle, or what ever I'm doing, and no sides really. I might be peeing more often. Prolly gonna need that GDA sooner then later.
 
Jinsun said:
Nah, I think I'm getting a bit more tired. Probably will be even more in a couple of days.

As for the pre-bed dosing ... I didn't get to into it, but it's commonly advised to do it somewhere before bed. Maybe not right before, but somewhere in the vicinity, like 2h before, idk ... The dosing schedule also differs depending on your goals and what not. So it's not just one straight forward answer what is best and what not. For now, I'm just testing how I respond to it ...
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Thats my understanding with dosing too, ie goal dependant. Broderick Chavez claims pre bed is "better" for muscle growth and not ideal for fat loss, in morning is better for fat loss and not as good for muscle growth. And thats just a guideline, I dont think he is saying its 100% absolute. Further, this either/or is only applicable if not splitting doses (his recommendation is to split once your daily dose reaches 6iu).
 
Jinsun said:
5 pins in on this GH cycle, or what ever I'm doing, and no sides really. I might be peeing more often. Prolly gonna need that GDA sooner then later.
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Some slin lol

a colleague i work with is type 1 diabetic and ordinarily shoots up insulin over there with a pen and those tiny subdermal needles. He even jokes about how he made himself hypo several times sweating like crazy etc (basically my experience also while on mk having my blood sugar all fuked up while also taking pwo dextrose)


Cant say i didnt consider telling him to get some extra next time he is about to stock up lol...inb4 we end up in a coma right there sitting in front of our computer screens
 
CroLifter said:
Hm so basically when maintaining (off cycle when i know i cant gain sh1t anyway or if cutting) implement some form of IF stl like 14/10 at least preferably? To maximize health and longevity, and only eat all the time while bulking.

To get the best of both worlds.




Also, does constantly activating mtor make your biological clock run faster? Or does it merely reduce the lifespan at the tail end (without aging you faster)?

I mean the 2 are correlated obviously but depending on the mechanism which causes the lifespan to shorten it may be one or the other (heart attack vs chronically elevated cortisol for example, both shorten the lifespan but one just takes you out momentarily while the other also makes you age faster)

If you all get what i am saying.
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yeah I get what you are saying.....

I’m far from an expert in this area but my understanding is that high mtor is linked to proliferation of cancers and other diseases. I believe it’s more of a correlation rather than a specific issue at this stage (and likewise inhibition of mtor is correlated with improved life span in every animal study that’s been done). It seems to be due to mtor causing quicker growth of everything (we activate it to grow muscle for example but it’ll cause things to grow that weren’t the target).

so in a really unscientific and purely my opinion answer to your question I think it’s a bit of both, there’s an element of speeding up the aging process but also making you more susceptible to certain diseases that can kill you.
 
I have no experience with GH, but I have injected a lot of water based steroids in the muscle. There's not much to worry about that you wouldn't already worry about with injecting oils... Minus a bit more "bite" from the BAC
 
FloridaMan said:
I have no experience with GH, but I have injected a lot of water based steroids in the muscle. There's not much to worry about that you wouldn't already worry about with injecting oils... Minus a bit more "bite" from the BAC
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Yes but that’s fine. Jinsun loves to get his ass bitten
 
Mathb33 said:
@Jinsun you didn’t say.. are you in a cycle? What’s your long term plan with this growth? Or did I miss it?
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Atm I'm just testing the waters, how I respond to it (I have to much money).

I have gyno surgery in a couple of weeks, so will be using it for recovery, together with bpc. Otherwise, idk, I'll prolly use it for a half natty cut/recomp march - june stacked with a gda and some other stuff I have yet decided to. Going to bump it up to at least 4iu then, more if I'll tolerate it good.

I have a test + primo cycle ready, but the surgery pushed the cycle to (in best case scenario) march, which means I would have to PCT in june, which I don't want to do. So a non suppressive cycle is kinda my only option this year.

It's gonna be crazy once we get out of lockdown in spring, and I want to be ready. Did somebody say crazy drunk pusssaaay? No? Damn, must be hearing things again ...
 
So, I am definitely pissing more. It's getting annoying. I'm surprised I have BG problems at 2IU. Supposedly this is BG, can't think of anything else. Had similar problems on peps, but worse. Looks like I'll cut this short sooner then expected. I'll continue once I get berberine.
 
Jinsun said:
So, I am definitely pissing more. It's getting annoying. I'm surprised I have BG problems at 2IU. Supposedly this is BG, can't think of anything else. Had similar problems on peps, but worse. Looks like I'll cut this short sooner then expected. I'll continue once I get berberine.
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Who cares about pissing more often?
 
Mathb33 said:
Stop giving so much importance to girls my broski. They will ruin your life.
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You just gotta ruin their life first. Strike fast and hard, then hit the hills like Casper. To be fair though, I did get sucked in by a couple myself. Sometimes that ass just too good!

I actually started doing my GH with a 29G slin pin after that image was posted. It doesn't hit any different. Sides are about the same.
 
Jinsun said:
While I haven't researched this thoroughly, I seem to remember reading that IM has a slightly higher biovail, at around 10 to 15%. I'll look into it in the evening.

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IM has a higher peak but leaves the system quicker. Which I tend to utilize in the AM shoot, when I stay fasted for a couple of hours upon waking up. Judging from this study though, the peaks from IM are unproportionally higher compared to SQ. As somebody on a different forum mentioned, and I kinda agree: it seems like the longer SQ curve doesn't compensate for the lower peak: the integrals under the curves don't appear to be the same.

Anyway, I'm thinking IM in the AM and SQ in the evening.
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Jinsun said:
Which image?
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This one. I'm doing 3iu and was hoping I'd get a stronger spike as it looks to be on average 40% stronger. It feels the same though.
 
MadStax said:
This one. I'm doing 3iu and was hoping I'd get a stronger spike as it looks to be on average 40% stronger. It feels the same though.
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Well, it's gh ... I would be surprised if you actually felt it. You're splitting the dose?
 
Jinsun said:
Well, it's gh ... I would be surprised if you actually felt it. You're splitting the dose?
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I can definitely feel the difference between 2iu and 3iu. Not immediately, but within an hour or two. The 3iu is guaranteed slight hypo, the 2iu usually doesn't cause much if any. I occasionally need a bit of a glucose tab with my morning 3iu dose.

Yes, I am doing one dose first thing am (then not eating for 3-4 hours after) and a second early afternoon/immediately after training.
 
MadStax said:
I can definitely feel the difference between 2iu and 3iu. Not immediately, but within an hour or two. The 3iu is guaranteed slight hypo, the 2iu usually doesn't cause much if any. I occasionally need a bit of a glucose tab with my morning 3iu dose.

Yes, I am doing one dose first thing am (then not eating for 3-4 hours after) and a second early afternoon/immediately after training.
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Yep I definitely have some hypo episodes at night post workout after my growth shot. My coach actually adjusted my meals according to this and it didn’t happen after. Same for me never happened at at 2iu a day but definitely happened at 4-5 until I fix a couple things
 
Sh!t hits different for sure. I was hoping the IM would hit harder, based on the graph, but it doesn't. This makes me wonder how accurate the data collecting was. The jump up from 2iu to 3iu should be about equal to the difference between SQ and IM.
 
MadStax said:
Sh!t hits different for sure. I was hoping the IM would hit harder, based on the graph, but it doesn't. This makes me wonder how accurate the data collecting was. The jump up from 2iu to 3iu should be about equal to the difference between SQ and IM.
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Yeah once again I just think on paper It says so but in reality it’s another thing. Plus, why are every single pro doing it subq if IM would give such an edge. Makes no sense.
 
Mathb33 said:
Yep I definitely have some hypo episodes at night post workout after my growth shot. My coach actually adjusted my meals according to this and it didn’t happen after. Same for me never happened at at 2iu a day but definitely happened at 4-5 until I fix a couple things
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i get a very slight hypo feeling occasionally after faster cardio (which is after my morning shot) but it’s barely noticeable. That’s only 1.75 iu am and same pm though
 
I'm voting for BS as well. I'll go back to SQ because I won't have to pants myself in the gym parking lot. Though I'm sure many there get excited.
 
Whisky said:
i get a very slight hypo feeling occasionally after faster cardio (which is after my morning shot) but it’s barely noticeable. That’s only 1.75 iu am and same pm though
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At 2iu am and 2iu pm I got basically no hypo. When I went up to 3iu x2 it is happening nearly every pin. That post workout pin can be brutal, because I try to stretch for at least an hour before doing my post-workout supps and food. I keep glucose tabs around and they work great! If you decide to move your dose up, I'd recommend grabbing a bottle. They're a bit expensive, but worth it to not feel the death!
 
Well ... I wouldnt call it bs, I mean, it's proper research. And besides; everything IM is faster absorbed then sq. SQ is the slowest of the pinning methods. And again, it's proper research. We cant discard proper research based on a feelz report, right? I mean, I wont ... Imo its just that, a bit faster absorption phase half life, doesnt change how you feel.
 
Jinsun said:
I'm a hopeless romantic. I can't help it rly. It's going to be my downfall.

But when did you decide that you like boys?
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The boyz know how I like it
MadStax said:
You just gotta ruin their life first. Strike fast and hard, then hit the hills like Casper. To be fair though, I did get sucked in by a couple myself. Sometimes that ass just too good!

I actually started doing my GH with a 29G slin pin after that image was posted. It doesn't hit any different. Sides are about the same.
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Like cobra Kai. Strike first. Strike hard. No mercy.
 
Jinsun said:
Well ... I wouldnt call it bs, I mean, it's proper research. And besides; everything IM is faster absorbed then sq. SQ is the slowest of the pinning methods. And again, it's proper research. We cant discard proper research based on a feelz report, right? I mean, I wont ... Imo its just that, a bit faster absorption phase half life, doesnt change how you feel.
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I'll always put my own personal experience in front of scientific evidence. I have a science degree. I did four and a half years of pure science and maths studies. I know all of the things that can go wrong when conducting this research. Also, how easily things can be manipulated (whether inadvertently or not) to show the result you (or the money) were hoping for. I'm not saying you shouldn't follow your heart and believe this research. It's definitely possible that it's true. I'm just expressing it personal experience. Hell, I'll probably still pin IM when I'm not at the gym, just because I have that faith in science.
 
Mathb33 said:
Yep I definitely have some hypo episodes at night post workout after my growth shot. My coach actually adjusted my meals according to this and it didn’t happen after. Same for me never happened at at 2iu a day but definitely happened at 4-5 until I fix a couple things
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Wow if it takes 3-4 iu for enough of a spike to cause slight hypo episode then i guess that mk is hitting me real good.

@Jinsun you are few days in you shpuld be noticing more glycogen ie more fullness and much better pumps. Day 3 on mk i already get all of those.
 
CroLifter said:
Wow if it takes 3-4 iu for enough of a spike to cause slight hypo episode then i guess that mk is hitting me real good.

@Jinsun you are few days in you shpuld be noticing more glycogen ie more fullness and much better pumps. Day 3 on mk i already get all of those.
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I think we have also established you don’t react to drugs exactly as we would consider typical
 
CroLifter said:
Wow if it takes 3-4 iu for enough of a spike to cause slight hypo episode then i guess that mk is hitting me real good.

@Jinsun you are few days in you shpuld be noticing more glycogen ie more fullness and much better pumps. Day 3 on mk i already get all of those.
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MK is different somehow. Even at 10mg of MK I was getting a bit hypo. I think it's more due to the grelin stimulating effects? Tricking your body into thinking you're starving.
 
MadStax said:
MK is different somehow. Even at 10mg of MK I was getting a bit hypo. I think it's more due to the grelin stimulating effects? Tricking your body into thinking you're starving.
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Hm possible?

Idk..few episodes were scary, but they were when i combined mk pre workout and then pwo dextrose. Ended up with cold sweat unable to walk (legit crawled to stuff my face with cookies because at first i didnt realize what was happening and when i tried to get up i simply collapsed).
 
CroLifter said:
Hm possible?

Idk..few episodes were scary, but they were when i combined mk pre workout and then pwo dextrose. Ended up with cold sweat unable to walk (legit crawled to stuff my face with cookies because at first i didnt realize what was happening and when i tried to get up i simply collapsed).
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Wow! That's really extreme! I've never gotten anything like that. Even at 6iu HGH and 25mg MK before bed for a few days (I stopped the MK because of anxiety issues) I didn't get unmanageable hypo. I always pin after my workout though, not before. I'm thinking of I pinned before, the hypo would be worse. Maybe try taking the MK at the end of your workout?
 
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