Wanna fix your arterial plaque? GTFIH

Nac

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McNatty approach:
=50ml or quarter-of-a-cup of pure (not concentrate sh1t) pomegranate juice per day
=3 dates* per day

At the very least this should prevent plaque accumulation, if not actually reverse it.

For extra cover:
Aronia extract (chokeberry) 500mg per day
1tbsp ground flaxseed (not whole, ground)

Kitchen sink approach add:
Grape seed extract 250mg
Olive leaf extract 500mg
Celery seed extract 150mg (standardized for 3nB content)
K2 180mcg
Pine bark 200mg
Vit d3

Lots more for other heart health/preventative measures, but my focus here was primarily arterial plaque and INCREASING paraoxonase 1 (PON1)<-----high levels have been shown to be anti-atherosclerotic.

If you have anything else, post it up.

....but who was studeez? Search this sh1t up for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

*not dates as in with a hooker, but the dried fruit
 
Marne40

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Supplementing pomegranate extract came up in a different thread the other day. But you’re right on the money, pretty much every study I read referred to pomegranate juice, not concentrate. I was surprised to see that many studies on pomegranate to begin with, but read a pretty good one a while back. That prompted me to add it as s daily staple (in pill form, not the juice). I have no idea what my arteries look like, but my blood pressure is better (I take other natural supplements to help with that also). I wish I would have paid more attention to stuff like this when I was younger.
 
Nac

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Yeah, I know the thread. Hydes and your post there prompted me to relook at POM, which I'd stopped taking.

The juice and dates are relatively affordable, and I thought it'd be good to have food options rather than the typical drug/supp choices. In my "research" I came across a meta-study of sorts that looked at all the current research on non-pharma ways to reduce arterial plaque particularly via that PON1 pathway.

I don't know what my arteries look like either, but I'm hoping to do an exercise test and echo which could give *some* indication. Not as fine-grained or as preferrable as a calcium score test (and ultrasound or angiography for peripheral disease), but it'll have to suffice. My ABI is normal but that's a pretty crude testing method.
 
Marne40

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Agreed on the actual food options. I personally resort to supplements a little too quickly. It’s just so damn easy. I’d be interested in reading the meta analysis if you happen to have the link. Otherwise I’m sure I’ll run into it as I’m still doing some digging into the subject. Reading studies comprises the bulk of my professional life, but I’m off for surgery so I have all this research energy building up. I can think of worse things to do in recovery though I suppose. I’d like to a bunch of those tests to see how my plumbing is as well. Would be interesting to see how bad it is, or if what I’m doing later in life is paying off.
 
Nac

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Some more info on paraoxinase, cos they seem pretty important for health:

"Paraoxonases have been found to perform a number of biological functions, though the primary role of this group of enzymes is still a topic of speculation. Some of the observed roles have revealed activities of anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative, anti-atherogenic, anti-diabetic, anti-microbial and organophosphate-hydrolyzing properties"

"The development of atherosclerosis is a complex process, though the main underlying feature is simply an increase in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) oxidation. PON1 and PON3 prevent the formation of atherogenic oxidised-LDL, the form of LDL present in foam cells of an atheromatous plaque. Because of their know association with high-density lipoprotein (HDL) and their effect on oxidized-LDL, PON1 and PON3 are implicated in lowering the risk of developing coronary artery disease and atherosclerosis."

^Copy pasta from wiki.
 
Nac

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It's also important to note, things like pomegranate etc don't just work their benefits via paraoxinase pathways, but have much wider and multiple MoA.
 
Whisky

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Useful info thanks.

I added pomegranate extract to my year round supp stack a while back (probably after seeing Hyde mention it). Most of the kitchen sink stuff has been involved for a while as well.

im thinking next year will be a good time to throw some money at some comprehensive testing to see where I am and whether any of the preventative measures are working or otherwise (obviously we’ll never know the true impact as there can’t be an extract comparable but it’s at least a decent indicator)
 
GreenMachineX

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Useful info thanks.

I added pomegranate extract to my year round supp stack a while back (probably after seeing Hyde mention it). Most of the kitchen sink stuff has been involved for a while as well.

im thinking next year will be a good time to throw some money at some comprehensive testing to see where I am and whether any of the preventative measures are working or otherwise (obviously we’ll never know the true impact as there can’t be an extract comparable but it’s at least a decent indicator)
Have you noticed any exercise benefits to pomegranate? Apparently it helps in our exercise and body composition goals. Took my first cap today.
 
Whisky

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Have you noticed any exercise benefits to pomegranate? Apparently it helps in our exercise and body composition goals. Took my first cap today.
just being honest but I take so many supplements that it’s simply impossible to tell which are having an impact on body comp. I know that the smartest play is to introduce one thing at a time, keep all other variables the same and monitor results over a decent period but I’ve never claimed to be the smartest guy or do the smartest things….

I look at the science, look at potential negatives and then decide if it’s worth adding. In the case of pomegranate (and most natural supps) there isn’t a downside and at worst I’m losing a few quid 🤷

sorry, I’d love to say I’ve got more for you to go on but I don’t….
 
GreenMachineX

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just being honest but I take so many supplements that it’s simply impossible to tell which are having an impact on body comp. I know that the smartest play is to introduce one thing at a time, keep all other variables the same and monitor results over a decent period but I’ve never claimed to be the smartest guy or do the smartest things….

I look at the science, look at potential negatives and then decide if it’s worth adding. In the case of pomegranate (and most natural supps) there isn’t a downside and at worst I’m losing a few quid 🤷

sorry, I’d love to say I’ve got more for you to go on but I don’t….
Lol I don't blame you one bit for that. I lived like that for years and still would if I didn't get weird side effects from everything these days.
 

johnny412

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just being honest but I take so many supplements that it’s simply impossible to tell which are having an impact on body comp. I know that the smartest play is to introduce one thing at a time, keep all other variables the same and monitor results over a decent period but I’ve never claimed to be the smartest guy or do the smartest things….

I look at the science, look at potential negatives and then decide if it’s worth adding. In the case of pomegranate (and most natural supps) there isn’t a downside and at worst I’m losing a few quid 🤷

sorry, I’d love to say I’ve got more for you to go on but I don’t….
what is a quid?
 
Hyde

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If looking for more food options, 6g garlic per day is a no-brainer.

Supplementation, 1g each of curcumin, citrus bergamot, & Spirulina will have very significant impacts on favorable lipid profiles.

Furthermore, just read recent research showing Berberine is actually great for lipids as well. Yet another reason to consider it longterm. I can’t remember the dose but 5-750mg/day is a solid dose for hypoglycemic effects so you can’t go wrong starting there.

I have been doing a ton of reading on this stuff the last week or so. Celery 3NB is a bit better as a blood pressure drug than lipids IMO based on the research I’ve seen, but a lot of these things go hand in hand with metabolic/bp/lipid health.
 
Nac

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If looking for more food options, 6g garlic per day is a no-brainer.

Supplementation, 1g each of curcumin, citrus bergamot, & Spirulina will have very significant impacts on favorable lipid profiles.

Furthermore, just read recent research showing Berberine is actually great for lipids as well. Yet another reason to consider it longterm. I can’t remember the dose but 5-750mg/day is a solid dose for hypoglycemic effects so you can’t go wrong starting there.

I have been doing a ton of reading on this stuff the last week or so. Celery 3NB is a bit better as a blood pressure drug than lipids IMO based on the research I’ve seen, but a lot of these things go hand in hand with metabolic/bp/lipid health.
You're right, celery is better known for hypertension but I included it as it also appears to be pretty good at reducing the oxidation of LDL...which admittedly does open up the door to many other options too.

When I was researching berberine it seemed the most commonly studied dosing was 500mg 3x per day, so 1500mg total. I'm sure a lower dose will have benefits, especially if youre using it in conjunction with other supps of this general type.
 
Hyde

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You're right, celery is better known for hypertension but I included it as it also appears to be pretty good at reducing the oxidation of LDL...which admittedly does open up the door to many other options too.

When I was researching berberine it seemed the most commonly studied dosing was 500mg 3x per day, so 1500mg total. I'm sure a lower dose will have benefits, especially if youre using it in conjunction with other supps of this general type.
I think the big thing with Berberine is just feeling out what you can tolerate gut-wise (and afford). I used to get the squirts with 750mg but after years of playing with it can now use a gram no issue.
 
Afi140

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Subbed to read later
 
barische

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raw garlic with turmeric, applecider vinegar mixture that i consume daily + pom / pomegranate juice that i have been drinking for a while. I was drinking pom more so for anti-estrogenic, testosterone support. not surprising about heart health benefits.
I also have a supergreen mixture w/ moringa, spinach, alfalfa, tulsi, spirulina, chlorella, etc..

anything to reduce TMAO and homocysteine may be beneficial - / methylation = beets, folate, methyfolate (greens),

omega-3s = sardines. some suggest that its actually not a good idea to take fish oils due to oxidation. if you can convince an MD, consider vascEPA

I have some obsession with kaempferol- i have been eating ton of capers and arugula salads.. I am turkish so plenty of black olives and olive oil is in the mix. My latest lipids showed chol: 203, LDL: 130, HDL: 48, Trig: 90. numbers "worsened" since previous labs. this was after 2 years of Low carb + intermittent fasting + crossfit workouts where i have gotten in amazing cardio and fitness shape. was kinda head scratching for me.. I have yet to do Coronary artery calcium score which will be requested by that script writer..
 
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Nac

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raw garlic with turmeric, applecider vinegar mixture that i consume daily + pom / pomegranate juice that i have been drinking for a while. I was drinking pom more so for anti-estrogenic, testosterone support. not surprising about heart health benefits.
I also have a supergreen mixture w/ moringa, spinach, alfalfa, tulsi, spirulina, chlorella, etc..

anything to reduce TMAO and homocysteine may be beneficial - / methylation = beets, folate, methyfolate (greens),

omega-3s = sardines. some suggest that its actually not a good idea to take fish oils due to oxidation. if you can convince an MD, consider vascEPA

I have some obsession with kaempferol- i have been eating ton of capers and arugula salads.. I am turkish so plenty of black olives and olive oil is in the mix. My latest lipids showed chol: 203, LDL: 130, HDL: 48, Trig: 90. numbers "worsened" since previous labs. this was after 2 years of Low carb + intermittent fasting + crossfit workouts where i have gotten in amazing cardio and fitness shape. was kinda head scratching for me.. I have yet to do Coronary artery calcium score which will be requested by that script writer..
Have you ever done an advanced lipid test where they look at the specifics of your LDL such as particle size? Isn't the basic LDL test we all get pretty crude in that respect, as it doesn't discern between the "really bad" LDL (your LDL might be high but it might not be high in the really damaging particles).

I know some cardiologists would say you have the right idea doing the calcium score test. If you score very low, they'd shrug and say not to be concerned with your cholesterol numbers. Your endothelium, for example, might be resilient to any damage and plaque accumulation, and/or your LDL particles could be mainly benevolent despite numbers being high, etc.
 
barische

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Have you ever done an advanced lipid test where they look at the specifics of your LDL such as particle size? Isn't the basic LDL test we all get pretty crude in that respect, as it doesn't discern between the "really bad" LDL (your LDL might be high but it might not be high in the really damaging particles).

I know some cardiologists would say you have the right idea doing the calcium score test. If you score very low, they'd shrug and say not to be concerned with your cholesterol numbers. Your endothelium, for example, might be resilient to any damage and plaque accumulation, and/or your LDL particles could be mainly benevolent despite numbers being high, etc.
the small dense vs large fluffy LDL argument. not yet but i have a list of labs to request from script writer including fractionated panel, ApoE, cardio-IQ by quest or NUCLEAR MAGNETIC RESONANCE (NMR) LIPOPROFILE. I wasnt too concerned so i am putting it off. problem is that doctors will not order labs that they are unable to interpret. Since most of them do not know jack **** regarding 2000+ research and still ordering 90s labs with 90s knowledge..
 
Nac

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the small dense vs large fluffy LDL argument. not yet but i have a list of labs to request from script writer including fractionated panel, ApoE, cardio-IQ by quest or NUCLEAR MAGNETIC RESONANCE (NMR) LIPOPROFILE. I wasnt too concerned so i am putting it off. problem is that doctors will not order labs that they are unable to interpret. Since most of them do not know jack **** regarding 2000+ research and still ordering 90s labs with 90s knowledge..
Ldl..yeah I think I've watched too much Thomas Dayspring
 
Hyde

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raw garlic with turmeric, applecider vinegar mixture that i consume daily + pom / pomegranate juice that i have been drinking for a while. I was drinking pom more so for anti-estrogenic, testosterone support. not surprising about heart health benefits.
I also have a supergreen mixture w/ moringa, spinach, alfalfa, tulsi, spirulina, chlorella, etc..

anything to reduce TMAO and homocysteine may be beneficial - / methylation = beets, folate, methyfolate (greens),

omega-3s = sardines. some suggest that its actually not a good idea to take fish oils due to oxidation. if you can convince an MD, consider vascEPA

I have some obsession with kaempferol- i have been eating ton of capers and arugula salads.. I am turkish so plenty of black olives and olive oil is in the mix. My latest lipids showed chol: 203, LDL: 130, HDL: 48, Trig: 90. numbers "worsened" since previous labs. this was after 2 years of Low carb + intermittent fasting + crossfit workouts where i have gotten in amazing cardio and fitness shape. was kinda head scratching for me.. I have yet to do Coronary artery calcium score which will be requested by that script writer..
I know you are all about getting your stuff from natural sources, but consider it’s the Curcumin extracts in turmeric that you really want. And it’s the Spirulina in the greens that will make the real differences.
 

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This may have been covered on here as haven’t read the whole thread, but are
there tests that can be performed to measure arterial plaque buildup? Also, if there is too much found will doctors be willing to perform preventative cleaning surgery (if that even exists)?
 
Nac

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This may have been covered on here as haven’t read the whole thread, but are
there tests that can be performed to measure arterial plaque buildup? Also, if there is too much found will doctors be willing to perform preventative cleaning surgery (if that even exists)?
A calcium score test will let you know if there's any buildup in the heart area. If you want to check legs and other limbs you have to get a separate test, usually a Doppler ultrasound. Or, for legs just do an ABI test at home if you have a decent blood pressure cuff monitor. The ABI test is not as good as an ultrasound but it should suffice. And it's much cheaper. But checking limbs is being overly, um, checky. If your heart is fine, your limbs should be (barring symptoms suggesting otherwise, ie varicose veins etc).

There's as yet no definitive way to remove plaque buildup with an Rx medicine. Rather, some meds can help reduce buildup occurring (ARBs, ACE inhibitors, beta blockers, statins).

In saying that, from what I've seen, studies seem to indicate very much in favor of pomegranate (plus dates) actually reducing any buildup. There's loads of other good foods and supplements mentioned ITT, but pome appears to have the current best evidence. Most studies use pome juice, but there's also good evidence for supplemental extracts like Pomella being as effective (I use both).
 
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JoePaul39

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A calcium score test will let you know if there's any buildup in the heart area. If you want to check legs and other limbs you have to get a separate test, usually a Doppler ultrasound. Or, for legs just do an ABI test at home if you have a decent blood pressure cuff monitor. The ABI test is not as good as an ultrasound but it should suffice. And it's much cheaper. But checking limbs is being overly, um, checky. If your heart is fine, your limbs should be (barring symptoms suggesting otherwise, ie varicose veins etc).

There's as yet no definitive way to remove plaque buildup with an Rx medicine. Rather, some meds can help reduce buildup occurring (ARBs, ACE inhibitors, beta blockers, statins).

In saying that, from what I've seen, studies seem to indicate very much in favor of pomegranate (plus dates) actually reducing any buildup. There's loads of other good foods and supplements mentioned ITT, but pome appears to have the current best evidence. Most studies use pome juice, but there's also good evidence for supplemental extracts like Pomella being as effective (I use both).
If you have enough arterial plaque would a doctor do open heart surgery to clean and remove it or does the risk outweigh the benefit at that point if no major cardiovascular incident such as a stroke or heart attack has hit the person?
 
Nac

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If you have enough arterial plaque would a doctor do open heart surgery to clean and remove it or does the risk outweigh the benefit at that point if no major cardiovascular incident such as a stroke or heart attack has hit the person?
I would think that there's a threshold...if you have too much in arteries in the heart area, the cardiologist would consider bypass surgery. If that critical threshold is not met, then theyd likely put you on statins/etc, and recommend the typical "lifestyle changes" to minimize further buildup. There's no cleaning option, as far as I know.

One of the risks of dissolving plaque too quickly, such as using some special futuristic solution that is put into blood circulation, is the risk of clotting due to loosened material. However, if the plaque is dissolved or broken down more slowly over longer periods, that risk is reduces. Which again would indicate that pomegranate is your best bet currently.
 

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Just found this study on Yerba mate and drinking a liter a day increased pon 1 by 9.7%

 
Nac

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Just found this study on Yerba mate and drinking a liter a day increased pon 1 by 9.7%

Good sh1t dude.

I've actually been on Yerba Mate extract for 2wks now, after seeing a YouTube video (on fatloss) by Andrew Huberman. He rates the stuff. Didn't realize it influenced PON-1 activity.
 
Hyde

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Green tea extract has been proven in human study to reduce lipid levels and decrease inflammation. Just not as much as some of the other stuff I mentioned. You will never go wrong with green tea unless you have incredible caffeine sensitivity.

Knew a gal who a single 3mg cup of fresh green would have her up til 2am. Wild.
 
Nac

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Came across a very interesting food a few days back. Looks quite exciting (I guess, if the topic of cardiovascular health excites you). It doesn't appear to have any PON-1 activity, but it's other benefits appear plentiful:

*ACE inhibitor
*lovastatin
*chrysin
*ergothioneine


Angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors help relax your veins and arteries to lower your blood pressure. ACE inhibitors prevent an enzyme in your body from producing angiotensin II, a substance that narrows your blood vessels. This narrowing can cause high blood pressure and force your heart to work harder.
ACE inhibitors can also potentially prevent or reverse cardiac remodelling.
You mightve noticed YouTubers like Vigorous Steve, Leo Longevity, Victor Black, etc recommending the superiority of ACE inhibitors (mainly telmisartan) over the use of AIs.

Lovastatin is well known as a compound that can lower cholesterol (think red yeast rice and the statin).

Chrysin seems to have crappy BV, but, can have colon health benefits.

Ergothioneine is considered a "longevity vitamin", due to its anti-inflammatory and antioxidant activity. These benefits get quite specific (mitochondria, Alzeimers, prostate cancer, etc etc); I've linked studies below for anyone interested.

The food source? Mushrooms. Oyster mushrooms, to be exact.




 
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johnny412

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Came across a very interesting food a few days back. Looks quite exciting (I guess, if the topic of cardiovascular health excites you). It doesn't appear to have any PON-1 activity, but it's other benefits appear plentiful:

*ACE inhibitor
*lovastatin
*chrysin
*ergothioneine


Angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors help relax your veins and arteries to lower your blood pressure. ACE inhibitors prevent an enzyme in your body from producing angiotensin II, a substance that narrows your blood vessels. This narrowing can cause high blood pressure and force your heart to work harder.
ACE inhibitors can also potentially prevent or reverse cardiac remodelling.
You mightve noticed YouTubers like Vigorous Steve, Leo Longevity, Victor Black, etc recommending the superiority of ACE inhibitors (mainly telmisartan) over the use of AIs.

Lovastatin is well known as a compound that can lower cholesterol (think red yeast rice and the statin).

Chrysin seems to have crappy BV, but, can have colon health benefits.

Ergothioneine is considered a "longevity vitamin", due to its anti-inflammatory and antioxidant activity. These benefits get quite specific (mitochondria, Alzeimers, prostate cancer, etc etc); I've linked studies below for anyone interested.

The food source? Mushrooms. Oyster mushrooms, to be exact.




ok NOW we have found starscream lol! :ROFLMAO::p😘
 

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Any thoughts on Serrepeptase? I've been taking it on and off for a few years. Supposed to be an effective enzyme for eating non-living protein in arteries.
 
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Any thoughts on Serrepeptase? I've been taking it on and off for a few years. Supposed to be an effective enzyme for eating non-living protein in arteries.
It does look good, but what made me hesitant was its questionable bioavailability. I opted for nattokinase as it also encourages the dissolving of arterial wall clots/fibrin (and other benefits) but has much more convincing study data in humans.

I guess it depends what you want and how much "faith" you'll put in claims. As far as cardiovascular health is concerned, I think nattokinase is superior to serrapeptase as it does what serra does, but much more. However, serra has other purported health benefits outside of cardiovascular activity which natto doesn't.
 
Hyde

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I started the 3 dates/day up Tuesday btw. Replaced my raisins in my preWO oats, and use them as a desert for my sweet tooth on off days. They really are pretty satisfying.
 

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It does look good, but what made me hesitant was its questionable bioavailability. I opted for nattokinase as it also encourages the dissolving of arterial wall clots/fibrin (and other benefits) but has much more convincing study data in humans.

I guess it depends what you want and how much "faith" you'll put in claims. As far as cardiovascular health is concerned, I think nattokinase is superior to serrapeptase as it does what serra does, but much more. However, serra has other purported health benefits outside of cardiovascular activity which natto doesn't.
I used to take Nato, but stopped for some reason and started the Serrepeptase. I'll have to look into that again. I've been mega dossing Serra (10x 120,000 SPU) daily, just in case it's doing anything? Not sure if the enteric coating is enough to allow it to enter blood stream, but I'm hopeful. There needs to be more bonified studies done for these products, but kind of hard when there's no money in them for the pharmaceutical industry.
 

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