very low dose 12 week oral cycle, thoughts?

bmj

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Overview: The StanChampion's 5mg 3-week superdrol thread has me seriously reconsidering how I want to run my next cycle. I've got 2 bottles of Primordial's 1-T, which I intended to run with epi or something else for 6 weeks, but now I'm thinking that I may save those bottles for another occasion and instead try an extended low dose oral cycle. I've just finished PCT from a very mild epi cycle (20-30-30-40) and intend to start my next cycle in the next month or so.

Stats: 6'1, ~205-210 lbs lean but not shredded. 3 years lifting, 1 year powerlifting. Current best lifts (with single ply gear): Squat - 500, Bench - 430, Deadlift - 580.

Goals: my main goal is to increase strength, but I would also like to gain ~10-12 lbs of muscle without fat gain, possibly some fat loss. On my low carb days I can make the 198 lb weight class no problem, I'm *hoping* with some dieting after this cycle I could continue to compete at 198 without too much difficulty. I am hoping that this kind of a cycle can produce steady and keepable results with very little shutdown and liver toxicity (anyone who thinks that taking 5mg of superdrol or 10mg epi ED is gonna damage my liver is not invited to post feedback.)

Diet: I've been dieting very hard for the past 6 months and have lost nearly 30 pounds while actually gaining a bit of strength (the Anabolic Diet fcuking rocks!). I don't think that these goals are unreasonable given that I seem to respond very well to CKD type diets as far as fat loss/ preserving muscle goes. I'm think if I stay on the diet but up the calories to ~5500/day while taking a little bit of *help* averaging 1lb of solid muscle a week should be no problem.

Cycle: all doses will be taken first thing in the morning so that there should be very little compound left in my system by bedtime. I've also considered running sustain alpha 2on5 off or maybe a bit less frequently in order to mitigate any potential shutdown, although which such small doses I don't think there will be much.

Weeks 1-4: Superdrol 5mg (don't know which clone yet) - I'm hoping for most of my mass to come from this part of the cycle. I will be training high volume/reps/intensity to try to stimulate as much muscle growth as possible.

Weeks 5-8: Epistane 10mg - Didn't really feel any shutdown from this during my last cycle (used sustain alpha 2on/5off while on tho). During this part of the cycle I am hoping to train my new muscle to contract with whats already there. I'll lower the volume/reps and increase the weight on my exercises.

Weeks 9-12: 11-oxo - 3/4 pills ED - not sure about this part of the cycle, basically I just want something that will help me keep my gains and keep cortisol low. I've also thought about just going back to 5mg of superdrol. Training will be adjusted for maximum weight and very low reps, with lots of time in betwen sets.

PCT: What do you guys think PCT wise? PCT should be a piece of cake since I'm taking such low doses of everything and will probably run sustain alpha on cycle. I might just opt for primordial performance's TRS and even a low dose of clomid for two weeks, is that overkill?

Sorry for the length of this post, but I felt it was necessary to explain my rationale for running such an unconventional cycle. I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing the results of such a cycle, and I'll be sure to at least post them or possible do a log. Let me know what you guys think! Thanks!
 
mooch2321

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why not just run a twelve week test cycle?
 
thegodfather

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What you have layed out sounds logical, but I probably wouldnt recommend it. 8 weeks with methyls plus another 3 on top of that of a PH, then on top of that you'll need a SERM which is also liver toxic. That is A LOT of strain on the ole' system. Some Test E for 10-12 weeks would be your ticket, and cheaper too.
 
UnrealMachine

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Running orals for 12 weeks is like running long-estered injectables for 4 weeks, they're both stupid ideas. It's not that your plan won't work, it's just that there's way better ways to achieve the desired results.

I am not so sure about low-dosed orals, i really think with that kind of duration that you'll stop seeing any noticable effects from the orals, for instance epi 10mg... most people say the sweet spot is 40mg and that 20-30 had little anabolic effects, i personally wouldn't expect ANYTHING from 10. And with SD 5mg might work at first but by week 3 I doubt i'd be noticing anything, i'm finishing up week 3 at 20mg and i'm starting to lose effects, all i feel is the hardness.

Anyway i would say if you want to run 12 weeks get yourself some injectables, if you want to run orals, run them dosed high enough to work.
 
ibanezman08

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i agree
either do a 4-6 week oral cycle

or do a 12 week test cycle.

i am one to run up to 10 weeks of orals but that is just risky and i don't run methylated orals for that long. i bridge to a non-methylated.

if i could, i would screw all that and run test. but i can't.
 
spiderduncan

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1. regarding the anabolic diet, props for great progress. have you heard of the Ultimate Diet 2? similar to cyclical ketogenic dieting...but much more complex.

2. you might want to consider the merits of pulsing an oral, that is, considering the cycle lengths you suggested.
 
ibanezman08

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pulsing never gave me good results
maybe that's just me though.
 
spiderduncan

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pulsing never gave me good results
maybe that's just me though.
would you explain a bit more about your experience? :think:
1. what did you pulse?
2. dosages, frequency, length etc.
3. overall progress

just curious as i have been doing a lot of reading about Dr.D's pulsing method.

thanks! :thumbsup:
 
raginfcktard

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pulsing is crap, low dosing orals is crap, 12 weeks of test ding ding ding we have a winner! why go through 12 weeks of high cal diet to gain the same or less than a stardard 3-4 weeker. test WORKS and you don't have all the harsh sides. start to finish with pct and minus all the possible support supps your will be using it will most like likely be cheaper! hell you can even run the test longer than 12 if you wanted too!
 
supersize77

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What if can't or won't get test. If that's the case a 10-12 week low dose oral cycle isn't that bad an option.

People have done it successfully with low dose D-bol (5-10mg) for years. I've researched it a bit and think sd dosed at 5mg for 3 weeks on 1 week off for 12 weeks or so might actually yield some decent results.

As I said, people currently use this protocol w/d-bol with little to no side affects and minimal shutdown...no reason to think sd would'nt work like this as well. The liver toxicity issue is overblown, especially at such low doses.
 
ibanezman08

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would you explain a bit more about your experience? :think:
1. what did you pulse?
2. dosages, frequency, length etc.
3. overall progress

just curious as i have been doing a lot of reading about Dr.D's pulsing method.

thanks! :thumbsup:
i pulsed epistane i think it was either 4x or 3x a week. sorry can't remember. and i think i was pulsing at 30mg and eventually up to 60mg.

the thing i hated was the ups and downs. one day i'd be feeling great, and the other i was depressed and it was because my hormones were all over the place.

and i didn't gain much in the end.

i ended up pulsing epistane like this for 8 weeks with just minor strength gains and no real weight gain.

i had much less side effects running epistane by IBE straight for 6 weeks.
 
spiderduncan

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i pulsed epistane i think it was either 4x or 3x a week. sorry can't remember. and i think i was pulsing at 30mg and eventually up to 60mg.

the thing i hated was the ups and downs. one day i'd be feeling great, and the other i was depressed and it was because my hormones were all over the place.

and i didn't gain much in the end.

i ended up pulsing epistane like this for 8 weeks with just minor strength gains and no real weight gain.

i had much less side effects running epistane by IBE straight for 6 weeks.
thanks for the advice.

all the cycles i have run have been straight. but i have been looking into the pulse method. just reading at this point! it seems that most people are pulsing epi or sd :think:

what kind of gains did you see with epistane (straight)?

btw, reps for the information. i appreciate it!
 
ibanezman08

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no problem man

i gained about 6lbs on epi straight.

it's a very mild hormone and maybe it was because i was only 20 when i ran it. but i was happy with it.

i kept all my gains and even post cycle i was still making strength gains so in the end, it got me past the platoe that i was at for like 5 months straight and after that, i kept progressing. so it gave me a nice little boost. plus i felt great while on and horny as hell hahaha.

i def. enjoyed the cycle.

i kept a log on bodybuildingdungeon.com.

i started one here but i couldn't keep up with two logs so i ended up just updating the one on that website.
 
BodyWizard

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Different people have differing goals.

Anyone whose endogenous test is still high will of course notice a slackening of effect as internal production trails off & your exogenous androgen stops being in addition to your native test and becomes a default replacement. ibanezman, you're young enough for your native test to still be quite high; for my part, age has greatly reduced my levels from when I was (roughly) your age. for me, a long, low-dose run tends to bring my levels significantly closer to what they were, and by keeping the low dose, I'm able to avoid a lot of sides that are simply the result of a "need to feel it". I just want to improve my anabolic environment, and this is a not-stupid way to do it. IMO.
 
nosnmiveins

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i dont like the idea personally. just run low dose test. i just dont like orals
 
supersize77

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Different people have differing goals.

Anyone whose endogenous test is still high will of course notice a slackening of effect as internal production trails off & your exogenous androgen stops being in addition to your native test and becomes a default replacement. ibanezman, you're young enough for your native test to still be quite high; for my part, age has greatly reduced my levels from when I was (roughly) your age. for me, a long, low-dose run tends to bring my levels significantly closer to what they were, and by keeping the low dose, I'm able to avoid a lot of sides that are simply the result of a "need to feel it". I just want to improve my anabolic environment, and this is a not-stupid way to do it. IMO.
:goodpost:

To the OP, this post is dead on. If you can get and are willing to run test, that's probably ideal. However, as I said before, running a low dose oral for moderate gains/low sides is not a bad second choice (although older lifters will likely notice the benefits more, of course).
 
BodyWizard

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i dont like the idea personally. just run low dose test. i just dont like orals
If I could find/get/afford it, that would be another matter.

Can I assume test is the only androgen you use?
 

bmj

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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'd like to respond to some of the criticism I've seen so far, and explain a little more why I am interested in such an unconventional cycle.

Why don't I just run 12 weeks of test?
Well, the idea behind this kind of a cycle is to try something new that could potentially yield good results with few sides. Of course I would gain more on 12 weeks of test E. A 12 week test cycle is perhaps the oldest and most basic cycle there is and yields predictable results, I'm trying to use logic based on other people's observations to formulate a new kind of cycle. What I want is something that will supplement my endogenous hormones with little or no shutdown, that is why I would be taking a small yet effective dose in the morning which should be out of my system by nightfall.

Why don't I just pulse then?
What I don't like about pulsing is that it sends your hormones on a day to day rollercoaster. This can't be a good thing for health. I think taking a small dose of a compound with a short half-life during the peak of your natural daily test rhythm would be much better tolerated by the body. Do I have evidence for this? No, but it makes sense to me and people have reported good results using other steroids such as dbol in this fashion. If people aren't willing to experiment with alternative kinds of cycles, we'll never know if there's other ways to go about steroid use than the standard 4-6 week oral or longer injectable cycles.

Aren't I concerned about liver toxicity after and 8 week methyl cycle?
This is ridiculous to me. If you look at my cycle, I'm planning on taking a total of 14 10mg superdrol pills and 28 10mg epistane pills. This is equivalent to ONE week at 20mg sd/40mg epi, which IS a lot but not unreasonable in the middle of an superdrol epi bridge, and I'm spacing it out over 8 weeks. Toxicity to the liver is definitely dependent on dose. Whats worse for your liver, 8 drinks in one night or one drink a day for 8 days? Also to anyone who said this cycle would be expensive, im using less than a quarter of a bottle of sd and a third of a bottle of epi, whats that cost, $20?

How can 5mg of superdrol/10mg of epi do ANYTHING?
Look at StanChampion's 5mg of SD 3weeker, he gained quite a bit. The idea behind this cycle is to supplement natural test levels (mine are high, I'm 23) without causing shutdown. I've even heard that a very low dose of epi can RAISE LH levels, which makes sense as it is an AI. If take 20 mg of superdrol or 40 mg of epi, your gonna get shut down pretty quick and have to up the dose to compensate for your loss of endogenous test. Perhaps this explains why long oral cycles are ineffective after a few weeks. The other explanation is increased drug metabolism via the elevation of liver enzymes, which I believe comes in response to high doses of toxic compounds, its your liver's way of removing the compound from the body as fast as possible.

Spiderduncan, I've heard of the ultimate diet 2 but haven't tried it. I'm gonna stick on the AD for a while as its doing me well, but thanks for the suggestion.

I just wanted to say that I'm not set on doing this cycle, I just think its an interesting idea. Maybe a 3 on 1 off of 5mg of superdrol like supersize77 suggested would work better. I just think that low dose orals have their advantages and are worth more than a scoff. Thanks again for posting guys!
 

bmj

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Any other thoughts/suggestions for an extended low dose cycle? Does 3on/ 1or2 off with say 5mg ED superdrol sound like a better plan, and something that couple be repeated several times before a standard 4 week PCT with a SERM?
 
mooch2321

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Different people have differing goals.

Anyone whose endogenous test is still high will of course notice a slackening of effect as internal production trails off & your exogenous androgen stops being in addition to your native test and becomes a default replacement. ibanezman, you're young enough for your native test to still be quite high; for my part, age has greatly reduced my levels from when I was (roughly) your age. for me, a long, low-dose run tends to bring my levels significantly closer to what they were, and by keeping the low dose, I'm able to avoid a lot of sides that are simply the result of a "need to feel it". I just want to improve my anabolic environment, and this is a not-stupid way to do it. IMO.

so your basically trying to do trt without test? with all due respect sir... i believe this is a stupid way to get the results you are looking for...100mgs of test a week would be great for you and be pretty much the same price
 
spiderduncan

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I just think that low dose orals have their advantages and are worth more than a scoff. Thanks again for posting guys!
...and with all things in life, trial and error produces results. i think your cycle sounds interesting, just do me a favor, track you results and post a summary when you are done.

i would be interested if StanChampion's cycle actually ended up being more of a pulse? obviously, one can seperate capsules and contents, but who can say for certain if the active is even dispersed throughout the filler (cellulose etc.). whatever the case, his experience/results merit further investigation.

lastly, have you ever heard of the Targeted Ketogenic Diet? this might suit your lose dose approach to PH/DS?! :think:
 

bmj

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...and with all things in life, trial and error produces results. i think your cycle sounds interesting, just do me a favor, track you results and post a summary when you are done.

i would be interested if StanChampion's cycle actually ended up being more of a pulse? obviously, one can seperate capsules and contents, but who can say for certain if the active is even dispersed throughout the filler (cellulose etc.). whatever the case, his experience/results merit further investigation.

lastly, have you ever heard of the Targeted Ketogenic Diet? this might suit your lose dose approach to PH/DS?! :think:
Thanks for your support. If I indeed do go through with some kind of low-dosed oral cycle, I'll certainly post my results.

I was on a TKD before I tried the Anabolic Diet. It worked great for weight loss but I lost a good deal of strength (probably muscle too). I think the problem was that I never fully adjusted from glucose burning to a fat burning metabolism. Now that my body's used to low carb, I bet I would have better success. If I do run a cycle, I've considered tweaking the AD to include a high carb meal right after workouts in addition to my weekend carbups, so this would be kinda a cross between CKD and TKD.
 

ekdevil

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12weeks would be too much imo even for low dose.i also dont think you'd gain 10-12lbs but if i would:


weeks 1-2 superdrol 5mg(even @5mg,sd for 3 weeks is 2much imo)
weeks 3-4 epistane 10mg
week 5-epi 10mg 11 oxo 3 tabs
weeks 6-8 11 oxo 3 tabs

your idea of 2 week clomid pct and/or primordial's pct stack sounds good.
 

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