two stage SD PCT?

[wastedwhiteboy2]

the atd is what killed your libido. unless you took blood tests to see #'s, I doubt you were shut down.

 

[TKE-PBOY]

I would recommend taking it in the morning and maybe afternoon. I would advice not taking it at night when melatonin levels are high, as it may interfere with your body's natural sleep paterns.

thanks for the info bro

 

[DR.D]

and how much SD did u run that you ran a PCT like that?

Like 10,20,30,40 basically. No ramp down used with the short cycle length.

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D, Do you take those 200mg of DHEA all at once or do you divide the doses through the day? and how much Fen do you take?

Yeah, divided doses on the DHEA. 100mg morning and 100mg noon. On days when I only use 100mg, I'll take it all in the morning. Never use DHEA too close to bed or after 6pm or it might delay recovery instead of helping with it. It's a great idea to use 3mg melatonin/night too when on DHEA. These two compounds balance one another. I start with 2-3 caps on the fen and add another cap every week I stay on it.

 

[DR.D]

By the way, at what dose do you think dhea causes shutdown or problems?

I've used up to 500mg no problem. On paper it looks like the conversion rate of DHEA to 5AD would be high, but it must not be in real life because I have done 5AD and can tell the difference. I've read studies of some using up to 1600mg/d with no endocrine disruption, but that's just too much IMO! Stick to low doses (200mg or less) just to play it safe. It doesn't appear to cause shutdown in anyone I've ever talked to at that dose. Recovery is faster in fact and normal PCT sides are improved. DHEA is the most abundant steroid in the human body (male and female). If it caused suppression, then PCT would never be possible because it's always there normally! After a cycle, it's levels are too low and cortisol is too high. If you use DHEA in PCT, you'll keep more gains and your system bounces back more efficiently. This is my honest observation, regardless what else you may have heard about it.

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Just an FYI on this whole SD "sticking with you" thing we're talking about.. I ended my SD/FiniGenx cycle over a week ago and I can't even tell you how much my bench-press has gone up since then without sounding ridiculous.. I'm just waiting for breasts now...

 

[DR.D]

Just an FYI on this whole SD "sticking with you" thing we're talking about.. I ended my SD/FiniGenx cycle over a week ago and I can't even tell you how much my bench-press has gone up since then without sounding ridiculous.. I'm just waiting for breasts now...

hahaha, don't believe the hype. :type:

 

[Hbs6]

Dr. D did you get blood work done after that cylce of the SD and the DHEA? If so how did it look?

 

[Hbs6]

also, i might have missed this in an earlier post...but did u run a serm with all that or just the DHEA and fen, i might have missed that sorry if this is a repeat

 

[Mass_69]

hahaha, don't believe the hype. :type:

Dr. D,

Have you found any evidence that this SD "delayed gyno" couldn't happen after PCT? When you show me that evidence, I'll stop claiming I got gyno/psuedogyno 3 months after the fact.

 

[Sky9]

Dr. D,

Have you found any evidence that this SD "delayed gyno" couldn't happen after PCT? When you show me that evidence, I'll stop claiming I got gyno/psuedogyno 3 months after the fact.

It is possible that estrogen rebound caused it to happen. In the mean time I would advise the use of a SERM to avoid the same thing happening again while off cycle. Raloxifene is the most predominate gyno buster out there IMO and it is virtually non-toxic, even in large quantities. The same cannot be said for tamoxifen citrate. If you are having trouble finding it, PM me.
Sky

 

[DR.D]

also, i might have missed this in an earlier post...but did u run a serm with all that or just the DHEA and fen, i might have missed that sorry if this is a repeat

You're talking about my alpha run of SD? I know I did blood (I do on every new product) but have to dig it up. That was well over a year ago, but I remember off hand that my liver enzymes didn't move an inch. Cholesterol was hit but my test wasn't too low or I would have included a SERM, which I didn't. I hear people saying how suppressed they are after just a month of SD, it blows me away because I wasn't that suppressed at all.

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D,

Have you found any evidence that this SD "delayed gyno" couldn't happen after PCT? When you show me that evidence, I'll stop claiming I got gyno/psuedogyno 3 months after the fact.

I still do not understand the exact nature of these phenomena, but have advanced several hypotheses over many threads on several boards. I have yet to see any solid trends that would help me to narrow it down. Some used a SERM, some used an AI, some used both, some think it's the SD itself. If it is for real, I suspect ATD alone PCTs could share some of responsibility. DHEA is not the problem and I feel that it may actually have helped if used simultaneous with ATD alone PCTs, if in fact ATD is even the common link. If not, you guys being affected are doing something basically wrong while on or post-cycle or else are extra sensitive genetically to androgen manipulation.

It is my conclusion as of now that this is probably a result of the large number of users of SD. PP would be resulting in more on-cycle gyno cases if more were using it, but it doesn't get the press SD does. I just don't think it is related to any idiosyncrasy of SD though. SD is still one of the cleanest, strongest oral options available IMO, even considering the prescription anabolics.

 

[TKE-PBOY]

Yeah, divided doses on the DHEA. 100mg morning and 100mg noon. On days when I only use 100mg, I'll take it all in the morning. Never use DHEA too close to bed or after 6pm or it might delay recovery instead of helping with it. It's a great idea to use 3mg melatonin/night too when on DHEA. These two compounds balance one another. I start with 2-3 caps on the fen and add another cap every week I stay on it.

Thanks Doc

 

[Sky9]

Raloxifene is still a SERM and works through the same mechanism of Nolvadex, a little different, but I dont know the specifics, Dr.D may know. It wont keep estrogen from forming like an aromatase ihibitor, but it should not have much of a rebound effect once stopping use. Remember, estrogen is not a bad thing, it the receptors that signal tissue growth when exposed to it that cause the problems, assuming you dont have extremely high estrogen, you should be fine.

This is why it is important to use an AI when taking in test. It converts to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme. By binding to the enzyme with an AI while having elevated test levels, we can reduce the amount of estrogen in the body. Once the exogenous test leaves the body, there is not as much test to be converted into estrogen. Therefore it is important to revive your HPTA and nolva has proven to do this in many studies. Raloxifene has not been proven to improve HPTA functions as dramatically, but has been shown to reduce or reverse breast tissue growth caused by estrogen more than nolva.

Bottom line, AI while on cycle, novla or clomid for PCT, and raloxifene for serious gyno combat. My personal advice is to use ATD while on short cycles due to its SARM properties which can reduce HPTA suppression. Then use clomid for PCT. I use novla too sometimes, depending on the androgen taken.

Still new and learning like the other 50% that post here however when I first started reading up on PCT and Nolva/Clomid, I came across a few post on BB that mentioned Raloxifene. As it is suppose to be the top dog of estrogen killers and preventers. While I've learned Nolva is a receptor blocker but allows the estrogen to roam around freely until you cease dosing of Nolva. Seems to me it would just attach after the fact. Where as Raloxifene would prevent the estrogen from ever forming? Am I any where near right? If so why don't more people use Raloxifene or similar as their PCT?

 

[MacMan]

If it is for real, I suspect ATD alone PCTs could share some of responsibility. DHEA is not the problem and I feel that it may actually have helped if used simultaneous with ATD alone PCTs, if in fact ATD is even the common link.

Based upon my experience of several cycles of various compounds and various PCT's, I definitely believe it is the ATD, although I don't believe it is only an ATD alone PCT.

For whatever reasons, I think ATD is having some bad effects on alot of people. I have never had any real problems with PCT until I included ATD as part of the PCT of my last cycle. It was the worst PCT I have ever had, I felt shutdown the longest, and libido was absolutely horrible. Even low does of ATD will trash my libido.

When I eliminated the ATD as part of the PCT protocol, things began to return to normal, but I had to do a second, shorter PCT after 6 weeks using only Clomid and Nolva to get fully recovered.

Just my opinion, but I will never use ATD again. There is something unusual going on with it.

 

[mmorpheuss]

I trust you were using Nolva or Clomid in addition to ATD..correct?

How did you run the Nolva/Clomid? (dosage and weeks)

 

[MacMan]

Yes, I was running both Clomid and Nolva initially with the ATD.

Dosages were:

Clomid: 150 mgs first day, 100 mgs second day, and 50 mgs for the remainder of the first week.

Nolva: 40 mgs a day first week, 30 mgs a day second week, 20 mgs third week, and 10 mgs 4th week.

The ATD was run in inverse proportion to the Nolva dosages, starting at 25 mgs the 2nd week and ending at 75 mgs the 4th week.

 

[mmorpheuss]

Both at he same time?? I dont think that is needed, I'm not sure if it could exacerbate things at all. perhaps Dr D could shed some light on this issue.

I personally would have tapered the Clomid over two weeks, than ran the Nolva consecutively as opposed to concurrently like you did.

At least you did in fact use Serms, and for more than one week like a few logs I've seen. Hopefully Dr D can offer more insight into what could have gone wrong here.

 

[MacMan]

This has been my standard PCT protocol (minus the ATD) for my last 3 cycles and I haven't had a problem. I would, however, like to know if the Clomid and Nolva together could be a problem. From other posts I have read, I thought using the two together was somewhat common. If not, and it is a problem, I would sure like to know as to not do it again.

 

[mmorpheuss]

I on the other hand did not think it was common.

Tomayto Tomahto.

Either way someone else is for sure better qualified to elaborate on this.

Bump for a reply.

 

[Jbutcher]

Quick question..

I'm looking at an SD cycle down the road from now and this is what my PCT looks like, let me know if I need correction and if I should worry about gyno.

PCT as follows:

Day 1
- 60mg Nolva
- 1000mg Milk Thistle
- 1200mg RYR
- 60mg CoQ10
- 5g Taurine

Day 2-11
- 40mg Nolva

Day 2-7
- 1000mg Milk Thistle
- 1200mg RYR
- 60mg CoQ10
- 5g Taurine

Days 12-21
- 20mg Nolva

*Trib throught PCT if I feel it's needed*

 

[Sky9]

Well I can tell you one thing for sure, use the taurine while on cycle, it will help with lower back pain. PCT you could use it, but its not needed. Your PCT is also dependant on your dosages and duration, which you have not provided, therefore I will be suprised if you get any applicable feedback except for the usual 40/40/20/20 comment.

Quick question..

I'm looking at an SD cycle down the road from now and this is what my PCT looks like, let me know if I need correction and if I should worry about gyno.

PCT as follows:

Day 1
- 60mg Nolva
- 1000mg Milk Thistle
- 1200mg RYR
- 60mg CoQ10
- 5g Taurine

Day 2-11
- 40mg Nolva

Day 2-7
- 1000mg Milk Thistle
- 1200mg RYR
- 60mg CoQ10
- 5g Taurine

Days 12-21
- 20mg Nolva

*Trib throught PCT if I feel it's needed*

 

[Hbs6]

You're talking about my alpha run of SD? I know I did blood (I do on every new product) but have to dig it up. That was well over a year ago, but I remember off hand that my liver enzymes didn't move an inch. Cholesterol was hit but my test wasn't too low or I would have included a SERM, which I didn't. I hear people saying how suppressed they are after just a month of SD, it blows me away because I wasn't that suppressed at all.

so you havent run a SD cylce since then?

And also, i have read of one of the guys on this board who ran an ATD only pct after he ran SD and from what i could tell it went fine for him...problem is this thread is talkin about delayed gyno...cant seem to find how things went for him a month or two down the road but here is the link...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolics/29911-sd-cycle-starts-monday-10.html

 

[Jbutcher]

For Sky, 10/20/30.

 

[DR.D]

Both at he same time?? I dont think that is needed, I'm not sure if it could exacerbate things at all. perhaps Dr D could shed some light on this issue.

I personally would have tapered the Clomid over two weeks, than ran the Nolva consecutively as opposed to concurrently like you did.

At least you did in fact use Serms, and for more than one week like a few logs I've seen. Hopefully Dr D can offer more insight into what could have gone wrong here.

That's what I would have done too, separate I mean. I don't see a good reason to include both at the same time. They will compete with one another and there will almost always be an overall loss of effect. The weaker substrate often has the higher affinity, so it would work, but inefficiently.

 

[DR.D]

Raloxifene is still a SERM and works through the same mechanism of Nolvadex, a little different, but I dont know the specifics, Dr.D may know ...

Yes, Sir, you're right on. It works the same as the the triphenylethylene class (Clomid, Nolva) but the half-live is only ~24hrs and it's much less toxic. It's better suited for women than Nolva because it has greater estrogen agonist activity in the bones but less in the endometrium while still being a good, strong antagonist in the breast. For us guys, the big advantage for use is the lack of emotional sides and the lack of liver stress when stacked with orals. It's the best on-cycle SERM you can use IMO.

 

[DR.D]

so you havent run a SD cylce since then?

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolics/29911-sd-cycle-starts-monday-10.html

Yeah, a few other times since then. I haven't associated it with any gyno on or off cycle though. Thanks for the link, I'll read through it this w/e probably.

 

[Irish480]

It is possible that estrogen rebound caused it to happen. In the mean time I would advise the use of a SERM to avoid the same thing happening again while off cycle. Raloxifene is the most predominate gyno buster out there IMO and it is virtually non-toxic, even in large quantities. The same cannot be said for tamoxifen citrate. If you are having trouble finding it, PM me.
Sky

I can't PM you... Can you email it to me? The Raloxifene link.

Email: [email protected]

 

[MacMan]

Dr. D and Mmorpheuss:

Thanks for the info. I won't use Clomid and Nolva at the same time again. Maybe it will make a difference.

 

[Mass_69]

The prolactin route is exactly my theory right now. I went to see an endocrinologist to discuss my gyno, lack of libido/worries of low Test, and generally feeling crappy all the time. His thought is that it is prolactin related.

Dr. D, what are your thoughts on SD maybe having an effect on prolactin and/or dopamine levels post cycle?

Well, not to beat a dead horse, but I finally got my own copy of my bloodwork results back from the endo after chasing him for about a month. Thought I'd post it.

Please keep in mind that this is not bloodwork from my original SD cycle, which is where I felt the nipple-sensitivity post-PCT. This blood was taken just after completing (I think the last day of) PCT. I had ran low-dose MDHT (25-50mg/day) for weeks 1-3, tapering in SD (10-20mg/day) to run it weeks 3-4. I was trying to to a little cut & repartitioning before going back to my homestate for Thanksgiving. What I was really doing was compensating for my poor diet during the Holidays :trout: (as you can read about in my current recomp log in my sig).

I figured PCT would be lite. Ran it as follows:

Week 1 - Tamox Citrate 40-20mg/day, RXT 75mg/day - I know, you're thinking, why Nolva only 1 week? I wasn't going to use it at all, but had a small amount left over in 1 bottle, so I figured maybe it could help lipids a bit

Week 2 - RXT 50mg/day

Week 3 - RXT 50-25mg/day

Week 4 - RXT 25mg/day

Recovery felt slow, sex drive remained down, and the boys didn't feel like they were back to pre-cycle fullness.

Which brings me to the results - My thought is that ATD may have a higher affinity to androgen receptors (at least in me) than I had thought. Looking at the test results, you would think I would be wanting to hump everything in site, but it was quite the opposite. On the other hand, the Endo & I can see that prolactin does not seem to be an issue. Not shown was a 2nd sheet with FSH levels of 4.0 mIU/mL (normal range is 1.6-8.0). I thought he ordered LH, but it is not listed. He didn't mention the ALT levels. To be honest, I would probably attribute some of that to my poor diet at the time. Too bad he didn't test estrogen/E2 levels. Maybe they were too low, and that could have caused the libido issues.

The Endo was going to have me go back for a follow-up of Test Total & Free, and check hCG, but after consulting with me (I'm am feeling better), he decided to just check the Test Total & Free levels in a few months. I attribute most of my feeling better to a better diet, and staying androgen-free (exogenous, that is) for a while.

 

[DR.D]

My goodness! You have the test levels of a stud horse! Even at the peak of my natural test production, I never had a TT over 900!

Oh well, with a test value like that, who needs a libido? I could just live on Viagra and RXT forever (lol)

BTW, like the sig bro... bring on the toremifene!

 

[Mass_69]

Yeah, unfortuantely, I didn't get to take as much of an advantage of it as I would have liked. Even w/those test levels, I felt like ass all the time. I was doing good to get into the gym 2x a week during December.

I did notice, however, that when I started my current recomp on Jan. 2nd (blood test was from 12/30), the first couple of weeks felt like I was "on." The recomp started with lifting heavy (6-rep sets). After not working out on a real consistant basis since July (except maybe November), I threw up the weight x6, and then some, no problem. Unfortunately, that has since worn off. Maybe I can still get him to do the Testo/hCG test now, to see what my actual baseline is.

 

[Hbs6]

So what do you think caused the libido problems?

 

[Mass_69]

My guess would be either having estrogen levels too low, or AR binding by the ATD, or the combination. It's tough to tell, since E2 levels were not tested.

MDHT & SD are both slightly anti-E, so lowering estrogens even further with ATD probably didn't help. I'll save my ATD for non 5a-androstanes and stand-alone use.

 

[Hbs6]

I am thinkin of maybe doing a run of SD, probly keep it simple PCT with nolva, fen, and DHEA and probly some LX, it seems the people who run the simple PCTs get the job done without too much trouble

 

[musclesinmotion]

Just a quick question...I've been searching endlessly and I havent been able to find an answer for this seemingly simple question. My PCT after 3 week SD cycle is Rbound XT Activate and lean extreme. My question is how should I time the dosing and is it bad to take them at the same time. For example taking RXT and Activate together or waiting an hour in between. Would they interfear with eachother if I took them together? Whats the best way to take them?

 

[CHAPS]

I think it's caused from progesterone, M1t doesn't aromatise but i got puffy nipples and even clear fluid from my nipples (the size of the head of a pin). I think Vitex, or even better Cabergoline would be best to use on and possibly through PCT, along with say a ATD+3-ohat supplement. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DmitryWI]

Just a quick question...I've been searching endlessly and I havent been able to find an answer for this seemingly simple question. My PCT after 3 week SD cycle is Rbound XT Activate and lean extreme. My question is how should I time the dosing and is it bad to take them at the same time. For example taking RXT and Activate together or waiting an hour in between. Would they interfear with eachother if I took them together? Whats the best way to take them?

You can take 'em at the same time, no problems

 

[doggzj]

Mass, while I'm not an expert in this field at all, I thought I'd add my input.

It just seems that people are destroying their estrogen levels. We already know SD works as a mild anti-estrogen. Then, people work into PCT and use Nolva and ATD. ATD is a lot more powerful at removing estrogen then most people know. Expecially after an SD only cycle, your estrogen levels should be low anyway! So libido remains low because your body has no estrogen to function properly.

Then you stop PCT, you have your body flowing with very high test levels. This leads to a very fast rise in estrogen levels, and thus, gyno symptoms. From what I do know, SDs anti-estrogen properties are just causing these cases to be more frequent then with other orals.

Also, we know that ATD is very effective at boosting test levels, so we have a situation where the body has no estrogen at all, and extremely high levels of test... Take it for what it's worth.

Respectfully submitted

 

[Grunt76]

Great post, doggzj.

What's with all that "Nolva PCT" talk? Nolva blocks estrogen. Nolva, AFAIK, doesn't boost the boys. Most designer orals do not aromatize, and are suppressive, which means your estrogen levels at the end of a cycle should be particularly low. Why nolva then? I cannot think of a good reason... :think: Of course an old-school cycle of aromatizing hormones would be very different.

Clomid is different, it stimulates either the HPTA or the boys themselves, not sure wich, but at least it does contribute positively to getting things back to normal... Taking nolvadex after a non-aromatizing cycle is useless IMO. Better to take nothing and save the money.

 

[jonny21]

What's with all that "Nolva PCT" talk? Nolva blocks estrogen. Nolva, AFAIK, doesn't boost the boys. Most designer orals do not aromatize, and are suppressive, which means your estrogen levels at the end of a cycle should be particularly low. Why nolva then? I cannot think of a good reason... :think:
Clomid is different, it stimulates either the HPTA or the boys themselves, not sure wich, but at least it does contribute positively to getting things back to normal... Taking nolvadex after a non-aromatizing cycle is useless IMO. Better to take nothing and save the money.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/475819-post20.html

 

[Grunt76]

Hmmmm.... OK so that says that nolva and clomid block estrogen from blunting HPTA. But since there is very little estrogen at the end of these cycles, then they are not needed in that capacity. I'm fairly sure that Dr. D explained that clomid has some actual testosterone-stimulating effect, other than simply blocking estrogen from blunting the HPTA.

 

[doggzj]

Hmmmm.... OK so that says that nolva and clomid block estrogen from blunting HPTA. But since there is very little estrogen at the end of these cycles, then they are not needed in that capacity. I'm fairly sure that Dr. D explained that clomid has some actual testosterone-stimulating effect, other than simply blocking estrogen from blunting the HPTA.

Correct

 

[jonny21]

Hmmmm.... OK so that says that nolva and clomid block estrogen from blunting HPTA. But since there is very little estrogen at the end of these cycles, then they are not needed in that capacity. I'm fairly sure that Dr. D explained that clomid has some actual testosterone-stimulating effect, other than simply blocking estrogen from blunting the HPTA.

Did you at least read the link in the post.

"Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side

 

[Grunt76]

Oh, you mean the thang by William Llewellyn? Nah... But I'mma read it right now...

 

[jonny21]

BTW, who has bloodwork that shows that SD acts as an anti-estrogen?

 

[Grunt76]

BTW, who has bloodwork that shows that SD acts as an anti-estrogen?

I dunno bro.

So the Lewellyn article clearly says that both clomid and nolva both increase testosterone production in normal men. In this respect, nolva is a better PCT treatment than clomid for the "normal", aromatizing cycle. Now my question is geared towards a PCT that starts with very low estrogen and testosterone levels. Since the estrogen levels are low, an anti-estrogenic effect isn't needed.

A suppressive hormone that does not aromatize will leave very little estrogen in the body at the end of the cycle, from my reasoning. And very little testosterone. Am I missing something?

 

[B5150]

Now my question is geared towards a PCT that starts with very low estrogen and testosterone levels. Since the estrogen levels are low, an anti-estrogenic effect isn't needed.

Read what I quoted from his article when I posted it in that other thread:
"They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor."

 

[Grunt76]

I can read real good, Brian. Where are you going with this, man? Sorry, I feel like there is a hole in my knowledge, maybe someone wants to fill me in?