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TTA

from muscle cramps i got from MP i think it has something to do with changing NA+/K+ gradient within the cell, which causes electrolytes imbalance in the cellular environment. But i cant find any studies that discuss that.

I think TTA can act as pro-oxidant if taken at large doses. Its chemical structure is very similar to alkylation agent used in chemotherapy treatment, which mean it maybe dangerous. It seem to act as chelating agent, and potent anti-oxidant at same time.
 
OK i got an idea TTA is a strong chelating agent, so binds calcium, potasiumn and copper or iron ions in radical scavenging. So that will cause lower NA+ and K+ in the cell, and thus an electrolyte imbalance, and you get the muscle cramsp!!! ?
 
composition, beta-oxidation and Na+,K+-ATPase activity in Atlantic salmon.

Moya-Falcon C, Hvattum E, Dyroy E, Skorve J, Stefansson SO, Thomassen MS, Jakobsen JV, Berge RK, Ruyter B.

AKVAFORSK, Institute of Aquaculture Research, P.O. Box 5010, NO-1432 As, Norway. [email protected]

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) with an initial mass of 86 g were reared in 12 degrees C seawater for 8 weeks to a final average mass of 250 g. The fish were fed fish meal and fish oil-based diet supplemented with either 0%, 0.3% or 0.6% of tetradecylthioacetic acid (TTA), a 3-thia fatty acid. The specific growth rate (SGR) decreased with increasing dietary dose of TTA. The SGR of the group fed 0% of TTA (Control) was 1.8; that of the group fed 0.3% of TTA (TTA-L) was 1.7, and that of the group fed 0.6% of TTA (TTA-H) was 1.5. The mortality increased with increased dietary dose of TTA. The mitochondrial beta-oxidation capacity in the liver of fish fed the TTA diets was 1.5 to 2 times higher than that of the Control fish. TTA supplementation caused substantial changes in the fatty acid compositions of the phospholipids (PL), triacylglycerols (TAG) and free fatty acids (FFA) of gills, heart and liver. The percentages of n-3 fatty acids, particularly 22:6 n-3, increased in fish fed diets containing TTA, while the percentage of the saturated FAs 14:0 and 16:0 in the PL fractions of the gills and heart decreased. The sum of monounsaturated FAs in the PL and TAG fractions from liver was significantly higher in fish fed diets containing TTA. TTA itself was primarily incorporated into PL. Two catabolic products of TTA (sulphoxides of TTA) were identified, and these products were particularly abundant in the kidney. TTA supplementation had no significant effect on the activity of the membrane-bound enzyme Na(+),K(+)-ATPase.


???
 
acecombact1 said:
TTA supplementation had no significant effect on the activity of the membrane-bound enzyme Na(+),K(+)-ATPase.

I saw this a while back and came up with a few theories.

1. Those who have used MP (even high dose) while lean bulking don't report cramping. My best guess to this is that they are constantly hydrated so their body can regulate the sodium/potassium pump easier, so no cramping occurs.

2. The study (i've not read the full study) does not indicate whether the fish were on controlled calories or free to eat. They may have been consuming enough food for the imbalance to manifest.

3. The highest dose - 0.6% of the diet translates into approximately 2g for a 200-220lb man dieting on 3000kcals, and 1.5g for a 150-165lb man dieting on 2000kcals. I wouldn't expect many, if any, to get the cramps given these scenarios.

They're just theories though.
 
i know that TTA has antioxidant properties, but is it actually toxic in the 2-3g range??? i've read no toxicity up to 500mg.
 
Yeah, I'm curious on the toxicity as well. I've been taking 3 grams/day for the last 1 1/2 weeks and have not noticed any sides other than less fat around the midsection, however, if what you say is true about the toxicity I am going to knock the dose down accordingly
 
Here is someting I found on pubmed:

Chem Biol Interact. 2005 Jun 30;155(1-2):71-81. Related Articles, Links

The metabolic effects of thia fatty acids in rat liver depend on the position of the sulfur atom.

Gudbrandsen OA, Dyroy E, Bohov P, Skorve J, Berge RK.

The Lipid Research Group, Institute of Medicine, University of Bergen, Haukeland University Hospital, N-5021 Bergen, Norway. [email protected]

The effects on oxidation and composition of fatty acids in rat liver were compared after administration of fatty acids with sulfur substituted in different positions. It has been hypothesized that drugs with hydrophobic backbone have lipid-lowering effects because they are not easily catabolized by mitochondrial beta-oxidation. Thia fatty acids cannot be beta-oxidized when sulfur is in 3-position, but beta-oxidation is possible when sulfur is positioned further from the carboxyl group. To investigate whether catabolism of thia fatty acids would affect their ability to influence lipid metabolism, a series of thia fatty acids were synthesized and administered by oral gavage to male Wistar rats (300 mg/kg bodyweight/day for 7 days). Depending on the position of the sulfur atom and the chain length, the thia fatty acids were beta-oxidized, desaturated and/or elongated, and the accumulated amounts were lower as the sulfur atom were positioned further from the carboxyl group. All thia fatty acids led to high peroxisomal beta-oxidation of endogenous fatty acids, whereas the mitochondrial beta-oxidation was high when sulfur was in 3-position, low when sulfur was in 4-position and similar to controls when sulfur was in 5- or 7-position. The changes in hepatic fatty acid composition were more pronounced when sulfur was positioned close to the carboxyl group. In conclusion, both the position of the sulfur atom and the chain length appear to determine the catabolic fate of thia fatty acids, and the non-beta-oxidizable thia fatty acids were most potent in regulating oxidation and composition of endogenous fatty acids in rat liver.

Do we know what the sulfur atom position is for both MP and Matt's TTA?
 
custom said:
Are you holding any water??

I am bloated more than a pregant woman in a chugging contest....

not too bad...I have noticed a bit more sub q water retention, but nothing anyone else would notice by looking at me
 
Random987 said:
Here is someting I found on pubmed:



Do we know what the sulfur atom position is for both MP and Matt's TTA?

TTA is a 3-thia fatty acid, so the 3rd.

4-thia fatty acids appear to do the opposite of what the 3-thia do.
 
in general, but for one.....the liver. yeah it has antioxidant properties, but doesn't necesarrily mean its free from toxicity and release of free radicals. this is pretty much a fatty acid uncoupler. it creates a pool of FFA dumped in the liver, and the actions it has on the mitochondria. there has to be some concern with TTA. would it be advantageous for someone to run a lower dose for a longer period of time, or moderate-high dose in short moderation with a cycling period? i plan on supplementing this, but cautious about some side effects that may be underneath the surface.
 
i am doing 1.5 grams of TTA

whilst on MP i took 8ed

i am more bloated while using TTA however i do not cramp as badly
 
I am on day 5 of MP...I am holding so much water it is histerical (I always hold water though...the day after a night of drinking, or even just at the end of the day, I'm always slightly bloated).
 
Robboe said:
A helluva lot more than 1.5g, thats for sure.

Does custom have a lab assay on his TTA?
Prove it's a hullva lot more than 1.5 grams.

If you are going to make a statement like that you should back it up or don't comment at all because, I'm guessing, you can't comment.
 
houseman said:
Prove it's a hullva lot more than 1.5 grams.

If you are going to make a statement like that you should back it up or don't comment at all because, I'm guessing, you can't comment.

You know i can't comment. I can give my word that 8 caps of MP is a lot more than 1.5g, but i can't say exactly how much TTA it is.
 
i was only on the Beta MP

hey matt... how much do you take or have you taken of your TTA... can you break it down in 1/4 tsp ..i know it wont be exact but i just want to get a round about understanding
 
right, but i am just wondering how much HE takes ;-)

UPDATE!!!!

ok MP never gave me DOMS like this... again i am taking 1.5g of TTA and though i said it wasn't cramping me... oh my living christ.... i hurt everywhere.. it is even hurting me to type this in my hands... and my tongue... hurts when i move it lol... grrreeeeaaat lol
 
Querty is correct.

Now in no way, shape or form would I reccommend a dose above what is posted and advised. But, if we are talking what I have done in my own persoanl spare time, I have been doing about 5 grams a day.

Oddly enough, I had zero side effects minus water retention that got really bad this whole time, but I missed a day yesterday and had the worst full body cramps I have ever experienced. This morning I have been downing bananas and multi's and Gatorade and Calcium, but I still feel pretty crappy. I just think it is odd that this surfaced when I took a day off.
 
custom said:
Querty is correct.

Now in no way, shape or form would I reccommend a dose above what is posted and advised. But, if we are talking what I have done in my own persoanl spare time, I have been doing about 5 grams a day.

Oddly enough, I had zero side effects minus water retention that got really bad this whole time, but I missed a day yesterday and had the worst full body cramps I have ever experienced. This morning I have been downing bananas and multi's and Gatorade and Calcium, but I still feel pretty crappy. I just think it is odd that this surfaced when I took a day off.
This sounds familar.....
 
damn that sucks for you guys, I really don't get any side effects (barely noticeable) except for the good ones, and that is with 3 grams/day
 
custom said:
Querty is correct.

Now in no way, shape or form would I reccommend a dose above what is posted and advised. But, if we are talking what I have done in my own persoanl spare time, I have been doing about 5 grams a day.

Oddly enough, I had zero side effects minus water retention that got really bad this whole time, but I missed a day yesterday and had the worst full body cramps I have ever experienced. This morning I have been downing bananas and multi's and Gatorade and Calcium, but I still feel pretty crappy. I just think it is odd that this surfaced when I took a day off.

I got worst cramps from MP 5 days after i stopped taking it......
 
just want to let everyone know that I am still alive.. i have come to conclude that my daily C intake was way over my usually 200mg and thusly i would guess that played a large part in sucking out any sort of water out of me.. causing ultra dramatic cramps...


I also want to answer a question that someone had either on this thread or another.. i have put on roughly 6 pounds of water whilst using TTA.. that is what I can gather
 
Any updates on the TTA at all? I am on my third day of MP at 6 caps a day(2 x 3). I have 100g of TTA on the way to continue with after the MP is done. Is there a definitive x g. of TTA equals x caps of MP yet?

On the advice of Matt and others I have a cupboard full of V8, a load of diaryte(sp?) sachets and plenty of taurine on hand.
 
imichael said:
Any updates on the TTA at all? I am on my third day of MP at 6 caps a day(2 x 3). I have 100g of TTA on the way to continue with after the MP is done. Is there a definitive x g. of TTA equals x caps of MP yet?

On the advice of Matt and others I have a cupboard full of V8, a load of diaryte(sp?) sachets and plenty of taurine on hand.

No idea on the conc of MP...alls I know is that robboe stated that 8 caps of MP contained "way more" than 1.5g TTA. Who knows.

A word of caution, if you are planning on doing this for longterm...I went for 4 weeks, took 1.5-2 off, and went on TTA again for a good 3.5 weeks...the lethargy was KILLING me, so I had to stop for awhile.

If you start getting really lethargic, give it some time off and start up again later.
 
Thanks Enigma

I saw Robboe's post, but it is surrounded by other posts of people taking 1.5 to 2g of TTA and getting cramps who used to take 8 caps of MP. I was just wondering if anyone had worked out a ratio.

Thanks for the advice on lethargy, I'll watch out for it.

Ian
 
I've been taking 3 grams/day for a little more than 2 months now with no sides (no bloating, no cramps, and no lethargy). This is the leanest i've been since highschool. I just have about a week left and I am going to take about a two month break. This is one of the best supplememnts I have ever taken.
 
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