Truth about PCT and Suppression?

Poko224

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I've been natural lifting for years, and test suppression has always scared me off. Can a pct truly bring back normal t level with maintenance of strength gains?

I want to know if there is a cycle out there that you can gain strength only/mostly and keep it with no/little/recoverable test suppression?
Would any of these work:
Proviron only
Low dose rad 140

I literally know nothing when it comes to cycles except internet research so looking for the experts on here to give me advice

(not looking for size as I'm naturally a very good gainer 18" arms 19.5" at my biggest pumped (not fat) that comfortably fill XL t-shirt that I don't want to grow anymore as they are too big for my body imo and constantly get comments on them, i haven't lifted for a year and they are still the same, I've always preferred a smaller lean look with awesome strength for instance Klokov etc., but I have crazy arm genetics)
Current strict ohp from muscle clean: 100kg
Goal strict press from mc: 140kg
 

bosskardo

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If you want to avoid suppression then avoid all that might cause it. Including rad.
Proviron might not suppress that much but don't take my word for it. Don't remember much of it other that it's basically DHT and sometimes also used in PCT.
 

bosskardo

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Proviron gets deactivated by 3HSD in the muscle, so it's barely anabolic.
Low dose HCG on cycle prevents supression and recovery is faster.
 
Jinsun

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Proviron does not suppress test until very large doses. This is proven by proper research. Link posted above for instance.

Anabolics give strength as long as they are present in your body. When they go, strength goes. What remains is muscle and plateaus you've broken through. Just pure strength, due do better CNS activation that the drug provides, logically goes away as the drug goes away.
 
Poko224

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Proviron does not suppress test until very large doses. This is proven by proper research. Link posted above for instance.

Anabolics give strength as long as they are present in your body. When they go, strength goes. What remains is muscle and plateaus you've broken through. Just pure strength, due do better CNS activation that the drug provides, logically goes away as the drug goes away.
So the strength remains but you wouldn't get any stronger till your next cycle? Is there any compounds which could better for my goals?
 
Poko224

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Proviron does not suppress test until very large doses. This is proven by proper research. Link posted above for instance.

Anabolics give strength as long as they are present in your body. When they go, strength goes. What remains is muscle and plateaus you've broken through. Just pure strength, due do better CNS activation that the drug provides, logically goes away as the drug goes away.
So the strength remains but you wouldn't get any stronger till your next cycle? Is there any compounds which could better for my goals?
Do you even read?
Lol you actually said both " when they go the strength goes" then you said what "[remains is] the plateaus you've broken through"

So you can see it's quite confusing, maybe re-read what you wrote
 
Mathb33

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Normally you pay for what you gain. The more a compound brings to the table (strength or size or whatever) the more you pay for it. By paying I mean the more taxing it’ll be on your body and supression. If you don’t want any supression don’t take anything.
 
Mathb33

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So the strength remains but you wouldn't get any stronger till your next cycle? Is there any compounds which could better for my goals?

Lol you actually said both " when they go the strength goes" then you said what "[remains is] the plateaus you've broken through"

So you can see it's quite confusing, maybe re-read what you wrote
I think it was pretty clear
 
MrKleen73

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NO. With a perfect PCT you might keep all of the actual muscle protein tissue but that is HIGHLY unlikely and you will definitely loose the additional "muscle size" gained through increased glycogen retention. You will lose the benefit on the CNS that causes the transitory strength increases but will not lose all the strength you gain as you will still have some more new muscle so you will be stronger than before.

A cycle is a 2-3 steps forward 1 step back kind of thing. When done efficiently more like a 3 steps forward and 1 back. However there is absolutely no guarantee that one cycle will not completely wreck your HPTA. If you plan to cycle at all you MUST be okay with the chance that you could need TRT for the rest of your life off of even just one cycle. Is that likely, no it is not but it is possible. It is also possible that with every cycle you do that you will recover less and less and that is a much more likely reality.

However something else to keep in mind... Once you have operated at 150% capacity returning to and being satisfied with even 100% capacity is unlikely. You WILL most likely want to do another one unless you have a bad experience. You might not do it but you will likely feel like you are settling for less from then on.
 
Poko224

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NO. With a perfect PCT you might keep all of the actual muscle protein tissue but that is HIGHLY unlikely and you will definitely loose the additional "muscle size" gained through increased glycogen retention. You will lose the benefit on the CNS that causes the transitory strength increases but will not lose all the strength you gain as you will still have some more new muscle so you will be stronger than before.

A cycle is a 2-3 steps forward 1 step back kind of thing. When done efficiently more like a 3 steps forward and 1 back. However there is absolutely no guarantee that one cycle will not completely wreck your HPTA. If you plan to cycle at all you MUST be okay with the chance that you could need TRT for the rest of your life off of even just one cycle. Is that likely, no it is not but it is possible. It is also possible that with every cycle you do that you will recover less and less and that is a much more likely reality.

However something else to keep in mind... Once you have operated at 150% capacity returning to and being satisfied with even 100% capacity is unlikely. You WILL most likely want to do another one unless you have a bad experience. You might not do it but you will likely feel like you are settling for less from then on.
So how do Olympic lifters like Klokov and powerlifters do it, cycle off weeks before the comp for clean drug test and keep 95% of there Strength. There must be some compound not produced in shady ugl that the professionals are using, that allows them to keep there strength gains off cycle
 
thebigt

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NO. With a perfect PCT you might keep all of the actual muscle protein tissue but that is HIGHLY unlikely and you will definitely loose the additional "muscle size" gained through increased glycogen retention. You will lose the benefit on the CNS that causes the transitory strength increases but will not lose all the strength you gain as you will still have some more new muscle so you will be stronger than before.

A cycle is a 2-3 steps forward 1 step back kind of thing. When done efficiently more like a 3 steps forward and 1 back. However there is absolutely no guarantee that one cycle will not completely wreck your HPTA. If you plan to cycle at all you MUST be okay with the chance that you could need TRT for the rest of your life off of even just one cycle. Is that likely, no it is not but it is possible. It is also possible that with every cycle you do that you will recover less and less and that is a much more likely reality.

However something else to keep in mind... Once you have operated at 150% capacity returning to and being satisfied with even 100% capacity is unlikely. You WILL most likely want to do another one unless you have a bad experience. You might not do it but you will likely feel like you are settling for less from then on.
and like recreational drugs, the longer you use anabolics the more you will want to keep upping the doses. this is why I would suggest starting at very low doses.
 
MrKleen73

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So how do Olympic lifters like Klokov and powerlifters do it, cycle off weeks before the comp for clean drug test and keep 95% of there Strength. There must be some compound not produced in shady ugl that the professionals are using, that allows them to keep there strength gains off cycle
They do their best to work around the testing with their PEDs Often water based, orals, non-estered, but other than that I don't really know. No one said they lose everything and how do you know that they are at 95% of there best on cycle strength when they compete. You are making assumptions. Also they have unlimited amounts of money invested in their success to ensure they have the best results. You will not have these.

I gave you a very real life explanation of the question you asked. I know you hoped for a better answer but you aren't going to find what you want to hear unless someone lies to you. As far as how they do it, I don't know but I know you don't have the resources to do the same or you would not be asking us.
 
Poko224

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They do their best to work around the testing with their PEDs Often water based, orals, non-estered, but other than that I don't really know. No one said they lose everything and how do you know that they are at 95% of there best on cycle strength when they compete. You are making assumptions. Also they have unlimited amounts of money invested in their success to ensure they have the best results. You will not have these.

I gave you a very real life explanation of the question you asked. I know you hoped for a better answer but you aren't going to find what you want to hear unless someone lies to you. As far as how they do it, I don't know but I know you don't have the resources to do the same or you would not be asking us.
I only know that because they always post pb's in the off season most of their world records are on YouTube, unofficially. Also I have followed the journey of an irish Olympics lifter and his best lifts on YouTube are much better than official (90-95%). Klokov is the world elite but as far as I'm aware there's no money in the lower levels of the sport where the other competitors are gaining that anabolic advantage too. Is there anyone with there own anecdotal evidence where they most kept there strength gains after a cycle?
 
Poko224

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and like recreational drugs, the longer you use anabolics the more you will want to keep upping the doses. this is why I would suggest starting at very low doses.
I'm not one of those i don't have any bigorexia issues. I'm willing to work hard to keep my strength gains once achieved. I've always felt like I've got more strength, in a few years of lifting i was able to do the 60kg dumbbells on incline for 5 reps at 87kg bodyweight, no spotter and no help getting them up.

What does it feel like to lose strength after a cycle, are you in too much pain to lift, or does it feel like your body forgot how to lift that much weight??
 

Whisky

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I'm not one of those i don't have any bigorexia issues. I'm willing to work hard to keep my strength gains once achieved. I've always felt like I've got more strength, in a few years of lifting i was able to do the 60kg dumbbells on incline for 5 reps at 87kg bodyweight, no spotter and no help getting them up.

What does it feel like to lose strength after a cycle, are you in too much pain to lift, or does it feel like your body forgot how to lift that much weight??
honestly bro, unless you have a valid reason to get stronger it doesn’t sound like cycling would be right for you.

kleen gave excellent responses above, I agree (and it was also my experience) with what he said in full
 
MrKleen73

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I only know that because they always post pb's in the off season most of their world records are on YouTube, unofficially. Also I have followed the journey of an irish Olympics lifter and his best lifts on YouTube are much better than official (90-95%). Klokov is the world elite but as far as I'm aware there's no money in the lower levels of the sport where the other competitors are gaining that anabolic advantage too. Is there anyone with there own anecdotal evidence where they most kept there strength gains after a cycle?
A lot of that has to do with timing, short esters, used very close to the competitions. There are reasons people end up getting popped and more people are getting away with stuff than are getting popped. However in the end like I said I do not know how they do it exactly. There are ways without gear to naturally peak your CNS for performance through strategic "overtraining" then rest prior to competition to create a super-compansation effect. At the Olympic level even when the athlete may not be making money the resources being thrown at their training and what not are pretty high.

Also someone training for strength and performance is often not doing max effort lifting during their training cycle just before their competitions, they are doing repetitive volume and form perfection at lower percentages 80-90%. So even shortly after a cycle with CNS peaking strategies and adrenaline they can best their on cycle efforts and all of their previous PR's for a single rep. It's not the same as someone training for size doing 10x505 on cycle to failure and then only being able to do 10x490-495 off cycle a month later when their pre-cycle 10 rep max was say 475 or something.

Does that make sense?
 
Poko224

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A lot of that has to do with timing, short esters, used very close to the competitions. There are reasons people end up getting popped and more people are getting away with stuff than are getting popped. However in the end like I said I do not know how they do it exactly. There are ways without gear to naturally peak your CNS for performance through strategic "overtraining" then rest prior to competition to create a super-compansation effect. At the Olympic level even when the athlete may not be making money the resources being thrown at their training and what not are pretty high.

Also someone training for strength and performance is often not doing max effort lifting during their training cycle just before their competitions, they are doing repetitive volume and form perfection at lower percentages 80-90%. So even shortly after a cycle with CNS peaking strategies and adrenaline they can best their on cycle efforts and all of their previous PR's for a single rep. It's not the same as someone training for size doing 10x505 on cycle to failure and then only being able to do 10x490-495 off cycle a month later when their pre-cycle 10 rep max was say 475 or something.

Does that make sense?
Yes thank you for your detailed response.

So if let's say i took oral t-bol at 10mg per day for 2 weeks and then came off that and took 50mg clomid for 2 weeks. I would pretty much lose all my strength till i cycled back on the t-bol again and it could affect my t levels for life?

@Whisky Reasoning: I've watched a lot of Larry Wheels lifts and he done 192kg overhead which is just crazy. klokov has done 160kg. I would be happy with 140kg plus as these guys had help i wonder what i would be able to achieve on a safe cycle if there is one where i don't do irreparable damage to myself
 
MrKleen73

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I'm not one of those i don't have any bigorexia issues. I'm willing to work hard to keep my strength gains once achieved. I've always felt like I've got more strength, in a few years of lifting i was able to do the 60kg dumbbells on incline for 5 reps at 87kg bodyweight, no spotter and no help getting them up.

What does it feel like to lose strength after a cycle, are you in too much pain to lift, or does it feel like your body forgot how to lift that much weight??
It feels about the same, just heavier than it felt on cycle. However that is where I was telling you that once you have been operating at 150% even operating at 100% will feel less than. That goes for strength too. If you know anything about stereo equipment that is the best example I could probably give. If you get used to listening to your stereo with an amp and subwoofer then you go back to the stereo with out the amp... you aren't going to be satisfied with the sound. You may get used to it again and like it but you probably wont ever enjoy it as much as when you had your amp hooked up.
 
MrKleen73

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Yes thank you for your detailed response.

So if let's say i took oral t-bol at 10mg per day for 2 weeks and then came off that and took 50mg clomid for 2 weeks. I would pretty much lose all my strength till i cycled back on the t-bol again and it could affect my t levels for life?

@Whisky Reasoning: I've watched a lot of Larry Wheels lifts and he done 192kg overhead which is just crazy. klokov has done 160kg. I would be happy with 140kg plus as these guys had help i wonder what i would be able to achieve on a safe cycle if there is one where i don't do irreparable damage to myself
Oral TBol at the strength is not likely to do much for you at all and probably would not shut you down much. More than likely would not mess with your recovery either but is not enough to really do much of anything. You want to be on longer and or use a MUCH more androgenic compound to focus on strength gains. Yeah you could run something highly androgenic for a couple weeks and see SOME strength improvements, but you would not gain much muscle so you would very likely lose those CNS based strength gains once the gear was out of your system. Now a month on DBol @30-50mg and you would also gain some muscle as well and 2 weeks post cycle on clomid you would very likely still lift more than before the cycle. Running HCG while on cycle would also help to prevent some of the shutdown but again you never know. Hopping on a cycle could expose an unknown weakness in your HPTA that makes it hard to recover or that you can not fully recover from. It is unlikely but it happens and you simply do not know until you know.

I would go and do a lot of research on strength cycles. What type of cycles powerlifters and Olympic lifters do and completely educate yourself on it. Then make a decision. Look up one of the Anabolic Bibles or Underground Anabolic books and read them. The discuss your thoughts on the matter with people who do that and get their input once you are more well versed on them.
 
Poko224

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A lot of that has to do with timing, short esters, used very close to the competitions. There are reasons people end up getting popped and more people are getting away with stuff than are getting popped. However in the end like I said I do not know how they do it exactly. There are ways without gear to naturally peak your CNS for performance through strategic "overtraining" then rest prior to competition to create a super-compansation effect. At the Olympic level even when the athlete may not be making money the resources being thrown at their training and what not are pretty high.

Also someone training for strength and performance is often not doing max effort lifting during their training cycle just before their competitions, they are doing repetitive volume and form perfection at lower percentages 80-90%. So even shortly after a cycle with CNS peaking strategies and adrenaline they can best their on cycle efforts and all of their previous PR's for a single rep. It's not the same as someone training for size doing 10x505 on cycle to failure and then only being able to do 10x490-495 off cycle a month later when their pre-cycle 10 rep max was say 475 or something.

Does that make sense?
Yes thank you for your detailed response.

So if let's say i took oral t-bol at 10mg per day for 2 weeks and then came off that and took 50mg clomid for 2 weeks. I would pretty much lose all my strength till i cycled back on the t-bol again and it could affect my t levels for life?

@Whisky Reasoning: I've watched a lot of Larry Wheels lifts and he done 192kg overhead which is just crazy. klokov has done 160kg. I would be happy with 140kg plus as these guys had help i wonder what i would be able to achieve on a safe cycle if there is one where i don't do irreparable damage to myself
Oral TBol at the strength is not likely to do much for you at all and probably would not shut you down much. More than likely would not mess with your recovery either but is not enough to really do much of anything. You want to be on longer and or use a MUCH more androgenic compound to focus on strength gains. Yeah you could run something highly androgenic for a couple weeks and see SOME strength improvements, but you would not gain much muscle so you would very likely lose those CNS based strength gains once the gear was out of your system. Now a month on DBol @30-50mg and you would also gain some muscle as well and 2 weeks post cycle on clomid you would very likely still lift more than before the cycle. Running HCG while on cycle would also help to prevent some of the shutdown but again you never know. Hopping on a cycle could expose an unknown weakness in your HPTA that makes it hard to recover or that you can not fully recover from. It is unlikely but it happens and you simply do not know until you know.

I would go and do a lot of research on strength cycles. What type of cycles powerlifters and Olympic lifters do and completely educate yourself on it. Then make a decision. Look up one of the Anabolic Bibles or Underground Anabolic books and read them. The discuss your thoughts on the matter with people who do that and get their input once you are more well versed on them.
I was thinking the tbol of 10mg a day as i don't want to gain any muscle really just pure strength so dbol maybe too powerful. I don't want anything that will look like im on something as i don't like that roid look.
I want to add 10kg to my overhead every 3 months with negligible muscle gain
 
MrKleen73

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Yes thank you for your detailed response.

So if let's say i took oral t-bol at 10mg per day for 2 weeks and then came off that and took 50mg clomid for 2 weeks. I would pretty much lose all my strength till i cycled back on the t-bol again and it could affect my t levels for life?

@Whisky Reasoning: I've watched a lot of Larry Wheels lifts and he done 192kg overhead which is just crazy. klokov has done 160kg. I would be happy with 140kg plus as these guys had help i wonder what i would be able to achieve on a safe cycle if there is one where i don't do irreparable damage to myself

I was thinking the tbol of 10mg a day as i don't want to gain any muscle really just pure strength so dbol maybe too powerful. I don't want anything that will look like im on something as i don't like that roid look.
I want to add 10kg to my overhead every 3 months with negligible muscle gain
The best I can offer is saying to look at anabolic /androgenic ratios and find something with a much higher androgenic and low anabolic ratio. Also do not eat a surplus, and do a low volume but high intensity approach. However not sure that those type of strength gains are going to come without additional muscle. Also not sure how close you are to your ceiling on strength in the overhead, It slows down the closer you get until it is a fight to get even a few lbs in a year. I think you might also be surprised with peoples weigh ins. They may compete in the same class for years while having gained a huge amount of walking around weight. I know powerlifters often drop over 20lbs during weight cutting for a meet, then carb up and gain it all back in the 24 hours leading up to the meet. I would imagine the same would go for Olympic Lifters. I happens with most weight class competitors like wrestlers, fighters and what not.
 
TheBigJS

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I want to know if there is a cycle out there that you can gain strength only/mostly and keep it with no/little/recoverable test suppression?
The only honest answer here is "no, no there is not".
You stand some chance of keeping some of your muscle gains if you can restart your natty test levels but strength levels will fall back.
 

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I feel like it’s a lot of negativity in here, lol.

I think that you can keep most of the gains if you do low dose gear, do a responsible PCT and keep your training and diet the same.

If you overdose on gear and food during your cycle and cut down on food after, you obviously won’t keep that much of your gains.

My first cycle was 8 weeks of test and mast, I gained 10lb and kept most of it and the strength kept going long after the cycle was done. Unfortunately I’ve done some shitty cycles after that but my first experience was great.
 
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Jstrong20

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If you have 19.5'' arms even pumped natty you are already a freak. As far as shutdown goes I personally wouldn't worry about it. Have ran a fair amount of stuff throughout the years and am fine at 41 years old. I have gone years without anything and usually only use one or two cycles a year now. Gains are far easier to maintain then when I was younger. Now im sure their is a chance of **** going really wrong but it hasn't for me or anybody I know personally. Read lots and weigh your options carefully. Don't make the decision off of one post on an internet forum. Don't get me wrong because their is lots of knowledge you can get from here. Just it sounds like you need to do some more research first.
 
Poko224

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If you have 19.5'' arms even pumped natty you are already a freak. As far as shutdown goes I personally wouldn't worry about it. Have ran a fair amount of stuff throughout the years and am fine at 41 years old. I have gone years without anything and usually only use one or two cycles a year now. Gains are far easier to maintain then when I was younger. Now im sure their is a chance of **** going really wrong but it hasn't for me or anybody I know personally. Read lots and weigh your options carefully. Don't make the decision off of one post on an internet forum. Don't get me wrong because their is lots of knowledge you can get from here. Just it sounds like you need to do some more research first.
I've been natural lifting for years i assure you I'm not going to make a decision based of one post. So given the fact it will all cause suppression,

are there any cycles that require minimal pct where the Suppression went back to normal the fastest?

Also should i be looking more towards Sarms, orals or low dose general AAS for my strength goals?
 
Poko224

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If you take a dose of anything low enough to avoid supression it's going to be a waste of money
What about using a short acting non-aromatising ester/compound as a pre workout, maybe lgd 3033? If i use it an hour before my workout, and use it once per week would that still cause shut down?
 
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im trying to avoid pre work out doses. some speculate its a bane to heart size and health.

I think we should get input from HYDE here.. but While i do agree "on cycle" ramps up strength and size, i also think that mucscle strength has memory just as muscle size has memory. Another point everyone is missing, is that the worlds elite lifters do a on and off season, but there is nothing similar to what a body builder does. they intend to stay strong in the on season as they are in the off season.. meaning they are literally training at a level about 10x that of you.. so if you want to stay strong you must earn it. with or without PEDs. and you must train at a level that insures forward progress at any cost. If you are not a national level competitor... why would you put your body through that? so that when your in your 50's you cant raise your arms or touch your toes from yrs of training abuse. ?? not worth it for me.. I am getting old now.. pushing on 50.. and there has been a steady decline in my abilities over the last 5-10yrs. that cant be stopped. in fact at this point I just want to feel as good as i look. so my goals are far different than they used to be.

one last thought to ponder. if its pure strength you are after with little to no sides... I would likely find the purest anabolic and low dose it for a 6-8 months per yr. real primobolan would be perfect here. it would be unlikely that you would gain any size from it yet it would help keep you strong 24/7

lets just be clear... who cares about suppression when you can just get on test for life if you want. just sayin.
 
Poko224

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im trying to avoid pre work out doses. some speculate its a bane to heart size and health.

I think we should get input from HYDE here.. but While i do agree "on cycle" ramps up strength and size, i also think that mucscle strength has memory just as muscle size has memory. Another point everyone is missing, is that the worlds elite lifters do a on and off season, but there is nothing similar to what a body builder does. they intend to stay strong in the on season as they are in the off season.. meaning they are literally training at a level about 10x that of you.. so if you want to stay strong you must earn it. with or without PEDs. and you must train at a level that insures forward progress at any cost. If you are not a national level competitor... why would you put your body through that? so that when your in your 50's you cant raise your arms or touch your toes from yrs of training abuse. ?? not worth it for me.. I am getting old now.. pushing on 50.. and there has been a steady decline in my abilities over the last 5-10yrs. that cant be stopped. in fact at this point I just want to feel as good as i look. so my goals are far different than they used to be.

one last thought to ponder. if its pure strength you are after with little to no sides... I would likely find the purest anabolic and low dose it for a 6-8 months per yr. real primobolan would be perfect here. it would be unlikely that you would gain any size from it yet it would help keep you strong 24/7

lets just be clear... who cares about suppression when you can just get on test for life if you want. just sayin.
Because i want to get at least one world record in my lifetime. One thing I've always had is strength. But i don't want to live out my days with a boring job/ ordinary lifestyle.
 
TheBigJS

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So how do Olympic lifters like Klokov and powerlifters do it, cycle off weeks before the comp for clean drug test and keep 95% of there Strength. There must be some compound not produced in shady ugl that the professionals are using, that allows them to keep there strength gains off cycle
A; how do you know they "keep 95% of their strength"?
B; genetic freaks, the elite, 1 in 5 million genetics.
C; the best doctors, on the best drugs, unlimited budget.
D; probably never actually off cycle. WADA testosterone test is flawed.
E; as you say, new drugs, not on the radar yet.
 
Poko224

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A; how do you know they "keep 95% of their strength"?
B; genetic freaks, the elite, 1 in 5 million genetics.
C; the best doctors, on the best drugs, unlimited budget.
D; probably never actually off cycle. WADA testosterone test is flawed.
E; as you say, new drugs, not on the radar yet.
A. They are setting World records so they must keep some of there strength. If we believe they are clean at the instance they lift. Some must be as there's too much to lose if they get caught ie. GB squad. They can probably get away with taking most things that have a short half life in the off season.
B. I mentioned Klokov because he's well known, the irish youtuber i taked about earlier was called clarence0, he obviously was not funded or a millionaire. He set his records on YouTube but in tested competition he lost some of his strength this is where the 95% came from. He always claimed natty, but now quit olympic competition and is a shredded 100kg+ monster so doubt he was ever natty
C. Refer to B
D. Yes this is true i think they allow 4 to 6 times the normal natural test limit for males i can't remember the exact figures.
E. Refer to B

My point was that some are saying you lose all your strength off them but there is lots of evidence to suggest once its all out of your system you still must maintain some strength to compete at a 'clean'/ drug tested event.
 
Mathb33

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I feel like it’s a lot of negativity in here, lol.

I think that you can keep most of the gains if you do low dose gear, do a responsible PCT and keep your training and diet the same.

If you overdose on gear and food during your cycle and cut down on food after, you obviously won’t keep that much of your gains.

My first cycle was 8 weeks of test and mast, I gained 10lb and kept most of it and the strength kept going long after the cycle was done. Unfortunately I’ve done some shitty cycles after that but my first experience was great.
Yes. But now get over your genetic potential (which you probably haven’t done yet) do a cycle, gain some weight and see how much you keep when after PCTing. Homeostasis will bring you right back to your natty genetic maximum.
 
Hyde

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im trying to avoid pre work out doses. some speculate its a bane to heart size and health.

I think we should get input from HYDE here.. but While i do agree "on cycle" ramps up strength and size, i also think that mucscle strength has memory just as muscle size has memory. Another point everyone is missing, is that the worlds elite lifters do a on and off season, but there is nothing similar to what a body builder does. they intend to stay strong in the on season as they are in the off season.. meaning they are literally training at a level about 10x that of you.. so if you want to stay strong you must earn it. with or without PEDs. and you must train at a level that insures forward progress at any cost. If you are not a national level competitor... why would you put your body through that? so that when your in your 50's you cant raise your arms or touch your toes from yrs of training abuse. ?? not worth it for me.. I am getting old now.. pushing on 50.. and there has been a steady decline in my abilities over the last 5-10yrs. that cant be stopped. in fact at this point I just want to feel as good as i look. so my goals are far different than they used to be.

one last thought to ponder. if its pure strength you are after with little to no sides... I would likely find the purest anabolic and low dose it for a 6-8 months per yr. real primobolan would be perfect here. it would be unlikely that you would gain any size from it yet it would help keep you strong 24/7

lets just be clear... who cares about suppression when you can just get on test for life if you want. just sayin.
Good post. A lot of good posts in here.

Don’t take drugs if you don’t want to keep using drugs. Most guys recover alright from various SARM/oral/moderate oil cycles, some need TRT by their 40s, and still I personally have met others who did 3 weeks of Superdrol once and needed TRT in late 20s. It’s not likely to be an issue with proper PCT but it’s something to be aware of.

The reasons you shouldn’t use them have been mentioned: you will want to keep using them, you will need to take more drugs over time as you reach for higher goals, and the gains are always partially temporary - there is no keeping 100% of strength gained, not for serious athletes with real bases of strength and technique already accumulated. You may see some chucklehead bro on here keep his strength weeks after PCT, but that’s because he was so far below his potential that other factors like gaining more weight or practicing better technique allowed him continued progress.

What goes up, must come down. Strength is ALWAYS temporary in this life - naturally acquired or not. Time & injury will ensure that.

Because i want to get at least one world record in my lifetime. One thing I've always had is strength. But i don't want to live out my days with a boring job/ ordinary lifestyle.
A federation world record, or a true all-time-world record? Because those are the only ones that “matter”, and even those get broken and forgotten. Setting that record won’t suddenly add fulfillment to your life, same as buying an awesome car or yacht doesn’t ensure content. That comes from development within.

I’ll leave you with this to consider:

 
Smont

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What about using a short acting non-aromatising ester/compound as a pre workout, maybe lgd 3033? If i use it an hour before my workout, and use it once per week would that still cause shut down?
No it probably won't cause shutdown, and it won't build muscle either
 

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