Tren Discussion
- Thread starter pudzian2
- Start date
sdmf45
Well-known member
10 weeks stacked with Test 1g/week, and dbol kickstart 4 weeks at 50mg ED.
Short esters for me because you can get some nasty sides from it and its easier to adjust the dose with the shorter esters.
Injected it everyday. I have tried Tri-Tren also. its 50mg of the 3 esters you listed for a total of 150mg/ml. that was also fvckin awesome. that i did EOD.
aspire210
Registered User
Have you ever tried tren before to see how it affects you?
pudzian2
Banned
nope, but it will be in my next cycle.!
aspire210
Registered User
definitely ace then. Tren for me was a mixed bag. One hand it lead to AMAZING gains in strength, especially shoulders. It got to thep point that I maxed out the plate loading machine hammer strength and was knocking it out for reps. On the other hand, it made me have very extreme emotions. If I was mad, I was PISSED. If I was upset, I was in tears. Eventually, it lead to severe depression. Tren was amazing for my physique, even more so considering how bad my diet was toward the end of my use, but I feel it really did screw my life up. Well, I shouldn't say it screw my life up, but it made it far worse when things got bad. I tossed the rest of my stuff and I feel 100x's better now that I'm off. I never got acne or anything like that, no physical sides at all, they were all mental. The bottom line is, if your life is unstable or rocky at all, I would seriously rethink your use of tren.
pudzian2
Banned
Thats interesting... I have taken a tren PH, which doesnt give the same results as the real deal, both physically and emotionally, but I didnt experience any emotional instability. I wonder if it was just a personal reaction of yours..Its just an individual process of trial and error really. Thanks for the input tho.
If I use it I was thinking Tren ace, or the tri-tren. I can get both. fewer injections with tri-tren would be nice.
pudzian2
Banned
Any feedback from the H... ester? (used alone) I am attracted to the idea of tri tren. Seems like a good combo.
jminis
Well-known member
No sorry don't know too many who've tried it.
aspire210
Registered User
I'm not the only one that has suffered from emotional problems while on tren. Tren has been shown to affect serotonin levels.
What tren ph did you try? Finigenx and its clones really never could convert to tren. From my understanding, it was missing a double bone that the body could not possibly create. As per, methoxy-trn and its clones, well I still don't think anyone knows exactly what was in them. You may or may not have a bad reaction, but don't base that on experience with "similar" compounds is all I am saying.
If you want to know more about the hex ester you should look up parabolan. That was the pharm grade tren with the same ester.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
parabolan is EXPENSIVE!!!!!! It will run you more green than ace or enanth.
I like Aspire's rationale for using ace. If you get a bad reaction, you can cut it cycle short really quick.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
On the other hand, there is more stable serum levels to consider with Enth.
pudzian2
Banned
people over-hype things...
PROS:
-no DHT or ESTRO conversion.
-5x as anabolic as test.
-awesome size, strength and fatloss experienced by almost every user
CONS:
-progestin...
-could lead to emotional issues
-progestin induced gyno in some I'm sure
-said to be kidney toxic, however I think this may be true in extreme conditions such as too high of a dose, too long of use, and not enough water.
pudzian2
Banned
yea.. you are right. It was just food for thought. I wasnt sure that finigenx didnt convert to tren. I felt and looked like I was using small doses of tren. ( super strength, hardness, shoulders blew the hell up etc)--of course not all those things come just from tren....
but, I am thinking of considering using tri-tren. with all three esters. fewer injections, benefits of all esters, very good feedback.
pudzian2
Banned
I've read alot on other sites and boards. Most people don't like the tri tren. They say that EOD or E3D will have a roller coaster affect on blood levels because of the 50mg Tren ace in it. I see where they are coming from as unstable blood levels will result in more sides. Also, using less test is favored. Say, 400-500mg per week at max to counter some tren sides and smooth things out.-this is andro city! Lots of people like Tren and EQ but EQ's ester is so damn long and an 8 week cycle would really not allow one to get much out of EQ IMO.
I've heard most prefer tren ACE ED injections with Test prop EOD or soemthing like that.
Parabolan seemed to be the hit stuff a while ago, not too many people commenting on it now. I guess its harder to get?
I've heard most prefer tren ACE ED injections with Test prop EOD or soemthing like that.
Parabolan seemed to be the hit stuff a while ago, not too many people commenting on it now. I guess its harder to get?
pudzian2
Banned
by what means is hair loss truly exacerbated with tren. I mean it doesn't convert to DHT, so I assume its not a by product of 5a-reductase interaction.
Travis
Banned
Honestly I dont know....others?
pudzian2
Banned
Parabolan seems to be the best option (minus the price). I feel as though Tren ace would be pretty much equal but requires more frequent injections.
I also know that since its a progestin, then PCT would not necessarily be the same (meaning no SERMS?)....I have read this. What are Tren users doing for PCT, if this is the case?
I also know that since its a progestin, then PCT would not necessarily be the same (meaning no SERMS?)....I have read this. What are Tren users doing for PCT, if this is the case?
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
My guess would be a build-up of sebum in the scalp. Repartitioning, can cause stimulation of the sebaceous through the excess oxidation of free fatty acids. My guess would be this is what Tren is doing. Just a guess though. Seriously.
aspire210
Registered User
I don't know what you wouldn't use a serm for pct for a progestin, but for my cycles with tren I just made sure to end the tren a few weeks ahead of everything else. Then run a normal pct. Tren A will pretty much be gone after 2 weeks, given its short half life so it won't interfere with recovery. This has worked great for me. I have personally given up cycles, but when I did do them I finished with test only until everything else cleared, tapering to lower serum levels and SHBG. Tren is severly suppressive, so letting it clear out completely is a good idea in my opinion.
pistonpump
Banned
subbed.
when i use tren itll be the acetate ester for sure. Not only can you come off of it quicker if need be but ive heard alot of guys not get the same effects with the enth ester tren.
when i use tren itll be the acetate ester for sure. Not only can you come off of it quicker if need be but ive heard alot of guys not get the same effects with the enth ester tren.
pudzian2
Banned
This is a good point. Definitely what I will do when using tren. So are you ON for good now? or just stopped cycling totally?
so people see ace as good as hex and the best option for price.
pudzian2
Banned
I would definitely stack tren with test, but both being very androgenic, I would think they would compete for receptors. Tren has an extremely strong affinity, probably moreso than Test, For this reason I think it would be good to use less test. so under 1g for most people. (if injecting ace at 75mg per day to start out with)=525mg per week, then test should be aroudn the same depending on goal and the individual? some guys use a few gms of test per week with like 150mg tren per day....
pistonpump
Banned
you probably have a good point there. To get more from both that would be the logic but generally guys use more test just for libido issues that can arise with tren.
datBtrue
Well-known member
There is no "effective" difference between Parabolan and enanthate...
I don't believe Parabolan is made by a pharmaceutical company anymore...so the stuff made from Chinese powders today has turned out no better/effective than enanthate. Save your money.
Tren is tren. Just account for the ester weight in figuring out your dosage. If you've run tren before and know how you react there is no reason to use acetate over enanthate.
The problem is that the purity of the powder for all (non-pharma) steroids varies. So one guys ace may end up more pure than his enanthate and so he thinks ace is better. Also 1mg of ace contains more actual tren than 1mg of enanthate. A lot of guys don't take this into consideration and so they aren't comparing equivalent dosages.
Nope you need a SERM. Tren will shutdown your HPTA. A SERM is used to get the HPTA working again. However tren comes with prolactin issues and so this must be dealt with often with cabergoline (most effective but has heart side-effects), bromocriptine and vitamin B6.
It is advisable to not close a cycle with a progestin like deca or tren. It is best to run it with test and run the test for a long while beyond the ending of the tren...trust me on this and run the test for more than 4 weeks beyond the tren.
Tren just makes it harder to recover from...so it is better if you can have it clear your system before PCT starts. Even so PCT needs to be longer.
datBtrue
Well-known member
This doesn't happen. Believe me you can not reach a point of oversaturating androgen receptors. Not even at 3 grams of test per week. LOL
Also Tren is an active fat loss agent and this probably occurs from its affinity for binding directly to the androgen receptor in the fat cells (test will not do that).
So use whatever you feel you need from both compounds without fear of receptor competition.
pudzian2
Banned
I will definitely be consulting you when getting into the detailed planning of my test and tren cycle. Thanks for the help---reps 4 u
awmcdon
Member
I would just like some clarification why you say that the androgen receptor can't be oversaturated. I'm not arguing with you, I really don't know one way or the other and I am very curious to become educated on this subject.
It would seem to me that their are alot of substrates and various enzymes needed for these processes to occur and that a point of saturation can certainly be reaced. But I'm a chemist not a biochemist so I certainly don't know this for sure.
I know that when dealing with hormones their is no receptor site on the cell wall. The hormone freely passes the cell membrane and is is carried into the nucleus by a carrier molecule(I can't remember the name). It would seem that this carrier molecule would eventually become saturated.
Is this not the case?
aspire210
Registered User
Strong androgens UPregulate AR's and some even increase the number of AR's, thus the AR's won't be oversaturated due to increased activity and number.
datBtrue
Well-known member
Yes...
awmcdon said:
But also when I was younger I wanted to figure out some things for myself. One of those things was is there much of a difference between using a gram of test per week and 3 grams of test per week.
Time and time again you see people...even people that you expect should know say that there is no benefit - "pissing into the wind".
So I primed myself for growth and I increased my dosage to 3 grams of test-cyp per week for 4 weeks. I was able to get blood work done on a weekly basis and I was able to monitor blood pressure, blood sugar and get a report on my lipids (one week in arrears).
Many precautions were taken such as the use of Questran (prescription drug) to keep cholesteral in check, niacin to thin the blood as well as fish oil, Hawthorn Berry to lower blood pressure, etc.
I wanted to take as much advantage out of this anabolic state as I could so I lived bodybuilding 24 hours per day. I worked out twice a day...everyday. Each workout was very, very intense. I ate huge amounts of food constantly (10,000 kcals per day) and I grew at an alarming rate and my bodyfat even went down (measured visually).
Because of the info. I had from Dan Duchaine I expected to grow this way but it was an amazing thing to experience. My focus and intensity were awesome but at the same time I was so happy & social. I think I felt like I could do anything...nothing constrained me.
Unfortunately it was difficult to sleep, my temperature stayed elevated and unless I used prescription drugs I wasn't able to get my blood pressure down low enough w/ the herbals. However the prescription drug kept the blood lipids from getting out of line.
But I grew a lot of muscle in a short-time. So from my little experiment I know for me at that time that 3 grams of test was not "pissing into the wind". That growth rate slowed dramatically as I incrementally dropped dosage back, eventually to 750mg per week.
So what was happening?
Dan Duchaine had a theory of "Post AR Mediated Growth" where he postulated that new growth pathways open up when you take 4-10 grams of AAS per week.
From the science I can find no evidence that another pathway could open up and so for me I believe that it is the same pathway whether you use 1 gram or 5 gramss and the mechanism is as described by aspire.
aspire210
Registered User
pistonpump
Banned
datbtrue, your experiment was with test only correct? I remember reading about compounds competing each other for the AR, what does that mean then. If its true that they are competing then wouldnt you be getting less out of your doses?
datBtrue
Well-known member
Possible only if you are using a huge dose of tren and another non-aromatising androgen. However you are not taking into account the occurance of upregulation of the androgen receptor through different pathways. Also keep in mind that the binding of a steroid molecule and androgen receptor is temporary, not permanent. The steroid molecule binds, delivers its message and unbinds in a predictable time limited fashion. Also note that tren has an affinity for androgen receptor-sites within adipose tissue as well which is not a characteristic of testosterone.
My "experiment" was with a compound aproximately 1/5 as androgenic as trenbolone (androgenic ratio is 500 vs testosterone's 100). There are other variables of course but we could generalize and say that 600mg of trenbolone is about as androgenic as 3000mg of testosterone. In my one man experiment I was still growing tremendously at that level. This indicated to me that I was not out of available androgen receptors (or better yet androgen receptor binding opportunities).
Extrapolating using the androgenic ratios of the two compounds...I could have used 400mg of tren and 1000mg of test per week (equivalent to 3 grams of test) and not had to worry about androgen receptors.
pudzian2
Banned
This has become very interesting. Thank you all for keeping the info coming...
back to tren for a minute:
On behalf of Tren Ace ED injections, what is a recommended amount to maximize its benefits and minimize the side effects. I will be planning on stacking it with Test prop ED inj. I was thinking about 75-100mg ED with a 750mg-1gram Test Prop per week (injected ED)..
Does that sound reasonable?
DatBtrue: you had said that 400mg Tren and 1g test per week would be equivalent to your 3gram test \ week run. Should the growth rate be similar? this combination would yield significantly less steroid (quantitatively), so do you recommend all of the lipid and BP caution that you took? possibly even needing prescription drugs?
Testosterone does aromatize (estrogen issues, water retention, etc), so I assume there may be more need for precaution while taking 3grams per week than about 1gram. The tren comes with its own host of sides, but Together at the doses i outlined, neither compound is taken in much excess.
am I thinking along the right lines here?
It just seems as though 1g test with about 75mg-1g tren per week is not as "crazy" of steroid doses as someone who takes 3grams test per week.
Aside: I could only imagine what kinds of things (side effects) pro's are experiencing when taking 2-3g test, with loads of tren, and whatever else..
back to tren for a minute:
On behalf of Tren Ace ED injections, what is a recommended amount to maximize its benefits and minimize the side effects. I will be planning on stacking it with Test prop ED inj. I was thinking about 75-100mg ED with a 750mg-1gram Test Prop per week (injected ED)..
Does that sound reasonable?
DatBtrue: you had said that 400mg Tren and 1g test per week would be equivalent to your 3gram test \ week run. Should the growth rate be similar? this combination would yield significantly less steroid (quantitatively), so do you recommend all of the lipid and BP caution that you took? possibly even needing prescription drugs?
Testosterone does aromatize (estrogen issues, water retention, etc), so I assume there may be more need for precaution while taking 3grams per week than about 1gram. The tren comes with its own host of sides, but Together at the doses i outlined, neither compound is taken in much excess.
am I thinking along the right lines here?
It just seems as though 1g test with about 75mg-1g tren per week is not as "crazy" of steroid doses as someone who takes 3grams test per week.
Aside: I could only imagine what kinds of things (side effects) pro's are experiencing when taking 2-3g test, with loads of tren, and whatever else..
aspire210
Registered User
First, if you look at the study I posted above testosterone DOES have affinity for adipose androgen receptors.
Second, Trenbolone is actually roughly twice as anabolic and three times as androgenic as testosterone.
Third, comparing androgenic values with binding availibility doesn't make much since since that shows affinity. Tren binds stronger to AR's, not to more of them.
However, I do agree with your message. It might be possible to overload receptors, but it would take a dose so high it would be ridiculous and you would likely be miserable or dead first.
datBtrue
Well-known member
Thank you for the study. It is interesting as far as it goes.
Practically speaking perhaps we should say "several times stronger."
However they are listed as:
Trenbolone Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 500/500
Testosterone Anabolic/Androgenic ratio: 100/100
Nope it doesn't make much sense does it because each steroid has a specific amount of time that it binds and this varies. I wasn't using androgenic values to prove an absolute rather I was attempting to demonstrate a relative direction or general change. I believe the thought experiment has merit in that regard. However I should have prefaced with the phrase "Everything being equal".
...and I have never heard any bodybuilder who has run all sorts of compounds and stacks state that they felt they "ran out of receptors or receptor binding opportunities".
The problem IMHO is that people take what A. L. Rea writes as gospel (He brings up this stuff about not having enough receptors if you run tren and test in CME). I have found him to be flat out incorrect on several occassions.
datBtrue
Well-known member
pudzian2 or anyone else who should read this. DO NOT USE 3 Grams of Testosterone per week!
It is not healthy as the long run consequences are unknown. That much testosterone could promote/encourage pre-cancerous states within the body or promote/encourage tumour growth.
I did that during an experimental time in my life which also included using DNP. I pray everytime I go to the eye doctor that he doesn't discover cateracts forming brought about by the prior DNP. You see it isn't the short-term side-effects that I worry about...rather it is the long-term consequences to my health and longevity that I worry about.
It is so difficult to lose site of this when you are younger. I would not make those choices again if given the chance.
Practically speaking you could get a lot more growth for your money if you use sane cycles spread over longer periods of time. After all of the years of cycling I've done I still use no more than 750mg of test per week. I believe this always works for me because I diet for a month or two prior to every bulking cycle...
...I don't believe we need to keep pushing doses up higher and higher for each suceeding cycle.
pudzian2 1 gram of test is too much. Also a little tren goes a long way.
The biggest concern of tren use is blood pressure issues. Almost everyone has high blood pressure on tren and for some the blood pressure increase becomes very dangerous. The higher the dose the bigger the concern.
Tren and Deca are two compounds that I haven't used in a long while. It is always difficult for me to recover from using them. Always start low and assess tolerance and then use the minimum amount necessary to grow & stay healthy.
Again bro don't use my past foolishness as a guide. Don't play with your health that way. Please have more respect for yourself than I did when I was a younger me.
It is not healthy as the long run consequences are unknown. That much testosterone could promote/encourage pre-cancerous states within the body or promote/encourage tumour growth.
I did that during an experimental time in my life which also included using DNP. I pray everytime I go to the eye doctor that he doesn't discover cateracts forming brought about by the prior DNP. You see it isn't the short-term side-effects that I worry about...rather it is the long-term consequences to my health and longevity that I worry about.
It is so difficult to lose site of this when you are younger. I would not make those choices again if given the chance.
Practically speaking you could get a lot more growth for your money if you use sane cycles spread over longer periods of time. After all of the years of cycling I've done I still use no more than 750mg of test per week. I believe this always works for me because I diet for a month or two prior to every bulking cycle...
...I don't believe we need to keep pushing doses up higher and higher for each suceeding cycle.
pudzian2 1 gram of test is too much. Also a little tren goes a long way.
The biggest concern of tren use is blood pressure issues. Almost everyone has high blood pressure on tren and for some the blood pressure increase becomes very dangerous. The higher the dose the bigger the concern.
Tren and Deca are two compounds that I haven't used in a long while. It is always difficult for me to recover from using them. Always start low and assess tolerance and then use the minimum amount necessary to grow & stay healthy.
Again bro don't use my past foolishness as a guide. Don't play with your health that way. Please have more respect for yourself than I did when I was a younger me.
aspire210
Registered User
That is how they are listed in vida, but according to this study done in the 70s it is 2x as anabolic and 3x as androgenic.
Pubmed said:
If vida was always right, then halo would be anabolic as hell. It may only be twice as anabolic, but it also doesn't cause water retention, so its all real muscle too. Either way, tren is an amazing anabolic, too bad it has so many side effects.
FX01
New member
Again bro don't use my past foolishness as a guide. Don't play with your health that way. Please have more respect for yourself than I did when I was a younger me.[/QUOTE]
Does this mean I can't snort Fina or drink Winny?
I guess all I want to do is gain like 10 lbs. and look like Brad
Pitt....
Does this mean I can't snort Fina or drink Winny?
I guess all I want to do is gain like 10 lbs. and look like Brad
Pitt....
sfearl1
Well-known member
Does this mean I can't snort Fina or drink Winny?
I guess all I want to do is gain like 10 lbs. and look like Brad
Pitt....
wow, yours and my goals are very similar!! lol
FX01
New member
I hope it's only about the continued Fina discussion.:twisted:
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
pudz how about 100mg test prop ed and 75mg tren ace ed
sounds like its got the right balance to me
doesn't 100mg test prop work better than 100mg test enanthate because more of the weight is testosterone and less is the ester?
sounds like its got the right balance to me
doesn't 100mg test prop work better than 100mg test enanthate because more of the weight is testosterone and less is the ester?