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Fasted

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I was quoting someone else and I lost the original post I quoted. My bad, it was not addressed towards you...

But on this topic, I agree that homosexuality is obviously not optimal or desirable from an evolutionary perspective, but is everything that is contrary to our evolutionary biology an actual “mental disorder?” Hell, I can think of any number of mundane and benign things that could be considered mental disorders.
Considering overpopulation, id argue that homosexuality is a positive evolutionary trait for our species.
 
muscleupcrohn

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It's a mental disorder disorder if a person is attracted to a group of persons that they cannot possibly reproduce with. That is all. These other hypotheticals are meaningless -- I've already stated my beliefs.
So if someone is attracted to older women who have are likely to have gone through menopause, it’s a mental disorder? Got it...
 
muscleupcrohn

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Considering overpopulation, id argue that homosexuality is a positive evolutionary trait for our species.
For the species, not for the individual. But yes, given overpopulation AND orphans and other people that need to be adopted, it serves a benefit for the community. :)
 

Spurfy

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I sorry about your experience. You do not deserve to go to jail if you did not continue the cycle. As a matter of fact, if you stopped the cycle if abuse you are a hero. What happened to you blurred the lines of consent that a non traumatic upbringing would have put in place. That is not your fault. I apologize and admit to my emotion, but you need help. You are on the internet saying its ok to think about sex with children. It isnt. You shouldnt be in jail, but you need to know those thoughts are not okay.
Bro, I'm not sexually attracted to children. I've had sex with more than 100 women and on average I engage in sexual activity with 2-3 different women a week, from ages 21 to 50*

My sexual abuse happened to a different person and it's only a tragedy if I allow myself dwell on it instead of accepting that it happened and deciding not to make it what defines me or my sexuality. That said, I'm sure it's the reason why I loathe pedophiles so much. Yes, I hate them for their thoughts. I hate their existence. I hope that every single one commits suicide before they have a chance to victimize a child. Every time I see a sex offender notification in my local paper, I look at the picture and fantasize about what it would be like to ambush them and shoot them dead. And ironically, these thoughts probably constitute a mental disorder of some kind.

* Finally,I have a reason to brag about this on this forum -- I've been waiting a long time! I'm a Tomcat, bros.
 

Spurfy

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So if someone is attracted to older women who have are likely to have gone through menopause, it’s a mental disorder? Got it...
No, because the male brain isn't wired to stop liking breasts, butt, and everything else wonderful about the adult female body. That said, if someone were sexually attracted to very old, withered, and frail women, I would say this is definitely a paraphilia and therefore a mental disorder.
 

Spurfy

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Considering overpopulation, id argue that homosexuality is a positive evolutionary trait for our species.
Overpopulation is a myth. Global population peaked about 20 years ago and is now birth rates are stable or actually in decline. This is due to low birth rates in the industrialized nations and more education and birth control in the developing countries.
 
hairygrandpa

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So if someone is attracted to older women who have are likely to have gone through menopause, it’s a mental disorder? Got it...
For me its not attraction. Its called marriage.
 
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Um, I'm discussing evolutionary biology and behavioral neuroscience, not religion. Try and keep up...
The problem you have while arguing evolution, biology etc is that humans are not like animals, we don't have instincts like they do. If you'd take a cat they will only mate during specific times while humans do it out of pleasure. To think that we have a natural instinct to go for a woman is simply not true. You can put two humans out of the same sex in a room their whole life without being exposed to women and they would have no idea either what sex is or what reproduction is. Put two male cats in a room and they would know by instinct if they after 10 years got exposed to a female cat how to reproduce. The two cats would fight against eachother while the two humans would have no clue what the hell is going on.

homosexuality is being exposed to both women and men and finding the same gender more attractive, it's not a choice and you can't take that away by going to a doctor.
 
Bagofturdwind

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Homosexuals are more than 6x as likely to have been molested as a child by a member of the same sex. This is a *fact* established by a study that was statistically significant. That number is far too high to be a coincidence.
There’s a huge difference between correlation and causation. I can show you a study that found blind children to be 5x more likely to have a mother that drank during pregnancy. Yet 92% of the blind children in the cohort didn’t have a mother that drank during pregnancy. Did the mother drinking cause a very small percentage of blind children? Possibly. But there’s no direct causation there to link drinking to blindness. Most of the babies were just born blind. Therefore, could a very small percent of homosexual adults be influenced from being molested as a child? Possibly. Is there proof of ANY direct causation there? Absolutely not. In any case, though, we don’t get upset at blind people for being blind, telling them their blindness is a choice.
 

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The problem you have while arguing evolution, biology etc is that humans are not like animals, we don't have instincts like they do. If you'd take a cat they will only mate during specific times while humans do it out of pleasure. To think that we have a natural instinct to go for a woman is simply not true. You can put two humans out of the same sex in a room their whole life without being exposed to women and they would have no idea either what sex is or what reproduction is. Put two male cats in a room and they would know by instinct if they after 10 years got exposed to a female cat how to reproduce. The two cats would fight against eachother while the two humans would have no clue what the hell is going on.

homosexuality is being exposed to both women and men and finding the same gender more attractive, it's not a choice and you can't take that away by going to a doctor.
Literally every single argument you make in this post is absolute speculation on your part yet being presented as fact.
 
RickyBlobby

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You are confusing pedophilia (a mental disorder) with child molestation (an act).

If it's "normal" (ie, not a mental disorder) to be gay then why isn't it normal to be a pedophile? Why is one a disorder of brain wiring while the other is not?
This

It is fantasising about molesting children. You keep normalizing and defending it...its actually really getting creepy...
So a dude fantasizing about getting his butthole wrecked by another dude isn't creepy to you?
Homosexuals are more than 6x as likely to have been molested as a child by a member of the same sex. This is a *fact* established by a study that was statistically significant. That number is far too high to be a coincidence.
This. Yeah some people are born with homosexual "tendencies". But not born "gay". Some people are born with no homosexual tendencies. But depending on the circumstances in that person's life, such as being molested some people do in fact turn gay, not being born that way.

Not all gay people are born that way. There are many different levels of homosexuality IMO. You're not gay or straight until you decide to perform the act.
 
Cheeky Monkey

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Good for them. They like bodybuilding and they want to show it.

But at the same time people cheer for transgender bodybuilders, how come female bodybuilders (especially Ms. Olympia contestants) get maligned and ridiculed for their hard work, dedication to training, and amazing phyiques??
 

Spurfy

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There’s a huge difference between correlation and causation. I can show you a study that found blind children to be 5x more likely to have a mother that drank during pregnancy. Yet 92% of the blind children in the cohort didn’t have a mother that drank during pregnancy. Did the mother drinking cause a very small percentage of blind children? Possibly. But there’s no direct causation there to link drinking to blindness. Most of the babies were just born blind. Therefore, could a very small percent of homosexual adults be influenced from being molested as a child? Possibly. Is there proof of ANY direct causation there? Absolutely not. In any case, though, we don’t get upset at blind people for being blind, telling them their blindness is a choice.
I never made a causality argument. Correlation isn't proof of causality, but neither is correlation to be ignored. In every study which can demonstrate causality, there must also be a strong correlation. Therefore, while correlation in and of itself proves nothing, it does offer a degree of probability determination that can be statistically verified by regression analysis.

When something is found to be 600% more likely than something else, that's generally a pretty strong correlational coefficient.
 
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No, because the male brain isn't wired to stop liking breasts, butt, and everything else wonderful about the adult female body. That said, if someone were sexually attracted to very old, withered, and frail women, I would say this is definitely a paraphilia and therefore a mental disorder.
What do you base this on? We are born with parents who teaches us how to be straight and not dress as the other sex. There are a ton of kids that goes the other way, they want to dress like the other sex, they are attracted to the same gender at young age and they continue like this their whole life.

This doesn't happen with animals, why? Because humans barely have any instincts left.


"instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior. When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior, they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behaviors, such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating, and so on, that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. In other words, under this definition, there are no human instincts.
 
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Literally every single argument you make in this post is absolute speculation on your part yet being presented as fact.
So your answer is speculation? Then the least you can do is to say you're speculating too.
 
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So a dude fantasizing about getting his butthole wrecked by another dude isn't creepy to you?

Well call or creepy if you like but no man is born wanting to do it to a women either, no man is born knowing what a vagina is either. There's a reason we have sexual education in school because humans don't know what sex is. Being gay is never a choice, having sex is.
 

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What do you base this on? We are born with parents who teaches us how to be straight and not dress as the other sex.
Source?

There are a ton of kids that goes the other way, they want to dress like the other sex, they are attracted to the same gender at young age and they continue like this their whole life.
I never said this wasn't true.

This doesn't happen with animals, why? Because humans barely have any instincts left.
This doesn't happen with animals because animals don't generally have sex for pleasure. They generally only mate when the female is ovulating and receptive.

"instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior. When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior, they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above.
Humans have instincts. Why is it nearly universally regarded as repugnant to imagine having sex with a first degree relative? Your sister could be the hottest girl on the block but you will not in any way be attracted to her. This is instinct, and there's a biological reason why you're not attracted to your hot sister -- impregnating her would very likely result in the birth of a child with genetic defects.

In comparison to animal behaviors, such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating, and so on, that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. In other words, under this definition, there are no human instincts.
Nonsense. Mating is an instinct in humans. Early humans had no language abilities, there was no dating or marriage or any real communication. We mated instinctively.
 

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Well call or creepy if you like but no man is born wanting to do it to a women either, no man is born knowing what a vagina is either. There's a reason we have sexual education in school because humans don't know what sex is. Being gay is never a choice, having sex is.
I was attracted to girls in 1st grade before anyone had told me anything about sex. I didn't know what sex was, but I knew that I liked these girls in a manner different than friendship and I remember liking them because they were "pretty"

And I agree that being gay isn't a choice -- you can't choose who you are sexually attracted to. Your attraction to someone is based on a multitude of factors, all of which exist subconsciously in your sexual schema.
 
Bagofturdwind

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I never made a causality argument. Correlation isn't proof of causality, but neither is correlation to be ignored. In every study which can demonstrate causality, there must also be a strong correlation. Therefore, while correlation in and of itself proves nothing, it does offer a degree of probability determination that can be statistically verified by regression analysis.

When something is found to be 600% more likely than something else, that's generally a pretty strong correlational coefficient.
A strong correlation coefficient still has jack sh1t to do with “proving” causation. I can have a perfect positive correlation coefficient of +1 in a study that has absolutely no causation. A study found the bigger an elementary aged boy’s sneaker size is, the higher he scored on a basic math test. The bigger sneaker size didn’t “cause” the better math score. It just so happened older kids have bigger shoes and therefore all scored higher on the math test. There’s no causation despite the strongest of correlations.

We can all cherrypick statistics to fit a narrative. Yes homosexuals have an increased risk of being abused as a child, but it has NOTHING to do with turning them gay. It’s the opposite. Here is an article proving your cherrypicking wrong: http://www.brainblogger.com/2016/11/21/homosexuality-link-to-child-sex-abuse-confirmed-gender-nonconformity/
 
muscleupcrohn

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Bro, I'm not sexually attracted to children. I've had sex with more than 100 women and on average I engage in sexual activity with 2-3 different women a week, from ages 21 to 50*

My sexual abuse happened to a different person and it's only a tragedy if I allow myself dwell on it instead of accepting that it happened and deciding not to make it what defines me or my sexuality. That said, I'm sure it's the reason why I loathe pedophiles so much. Yes, I hate them for their thoughts. I hate their existence. I hope that every single one commits suicide before they have a chance to victimize a child. Every time I see a sex offender notification in my local paper, I look at the picture and fantasize about what it would be like to ambush them and shoot them dead. And ironically, these thoughts probably constitute a mental disorder of some kind.

* Finally,I have a reason to brag about this on this forum -- I've been waiting a long time! I'm a Tomcat, bros.
Your math doesn’t add up. 2-3 women a week for even only one year is 104-156 women. So this rate is very new for you?
 
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I was attracted to girls in 1st grade before anyone had told me anything about sex. I didn't know what sex was, but I knew that I liked these girls in a manner different than friendship and I remember liking them because they were "pretty"

And I agree that being gay isn't a choice -- you can't choose who you are sexually attracted to. Your attraction to someone is based on a multitude of factors, all of which exist subconsciously in your sexual schema.
To answer your questions

1. This doesn't need a source, 99% of all parents will treat you as a boy if you are.

2. You answered it yourself, we don't have these instincts.

3. No it's not, kids don't know sex until someone tells them. Kids at 5 years old are not attracted to anything. Kids grow up and realize having sex with a sibling is wrong.. There is no study that shows that a kid wouldn't because of an instinct.

4. Again you're talking about humans before us, humans that mated with neanderthals. Instincts did exist but because of our way of learning and teaching our kids we develop different ways of thinking based on what parents we had. We came from monkeys..


5. You being attracted to girls just means you grow up in a normal environment. Had you been locked in to a basement without humans contact you'd gave no idea what a woman is while an animal would instantly have the instinct of reproducing.

A fruitfly has more instincts than us
 

Spurfy

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A strong correlation coefficient still has jack sh1t to do with “proving” causation. I can have a perfect positive correlation coefficient of +1 in a study that has absolutely no causation. A study found the bigger an elementary aged boy’s sneaker size is, the higher he scored on a basic math test. The bigger sneaker size didn’t “cause” the better math score. It just so happened older kids have bigger shoes and therefore all scored higher on the math test. There’s no causation despite the strongest of correlations.
I'll say this again: All proof of causality is accompanied by a very high correlation. So while not all high correlations = causality, all causality = high correlations. And your shoe size study isn't really relevant in this instance, we're talking about a behavioral phenomena, not an intellectual one. Behavior is strongly influenced by past experience, this is an unquestionable fact.

We can all cherrypick statistics to fit a narrative. Yes homosexuals have an increased risk of being abused as a child, but it has NOTHING to do with turning them gay. It’s the opposite. Here is an article proving your cherrypicking wrong: http://www.brainblogger.com/2016/11/21/homosexuality-link-to-child-sex-abuse-confirmed-gender-nonconformity/
This article is garbage and presents numerous unfounded assumptions as fact.
 

Spurfy

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Your math doesn’t add up. 2-3 women a week for even only one year is 104-156 women. So this rate is very new for you?
I didn't say they were always a brand new girl. Sometimes it's a new girl, but usually it's a girl from my rotation. I have no interest in a relationship, and this lifestyle suits me just fine.
 
Bagofturdwind

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I'll say this again: All proof of causality is accompanied by a very high correlation. So while not all high correlations = causality, all causality = high correlations. And your shoe size study isn't really relevant in this instance, we're talking about a behavioral phenomena, not an intellectual one. Behavior is strongly influenced by past experience, this is an unquestionable fact.



This article is garbage and presents numerous unfounded assumptions as fact.
Are you in that much denial and THAT stubborn that you can’t open up yourself to new knowledge? That maybe your narrow-minded beliefs were a bit wrong and misguided. I didn’t know numerous peer-reviewed studies were “garbage“... you are one of those Flat Earth believers, aren’t you?

We can’t educate those that are immune to facts.
 

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Are you in that much denial and THAT stubborn that you can’t open up yourself to new knowledge? That maybe your narrow-minded beliefs were a bit wrong and misguided. I didn’t know numerous peer-reviewed studies were “garbage“... you are one of those Flat Earth believers, aren’t you?
No, I just really hate f-ggots because I'm actually very sexually attracted to men but repress this due to the intense self-hatred it causes me, and this repression becomes anger, frustration, and then rage, which completely clouds my ability to be rational or reasonable. So, I get my kicks by beating up gays all the while wishing I was having sex with them.

Does that answer your question?
 
Bagofturdwind

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So a dude fantasizing about getting his butthole wrecked by another dude isn't creepy to you?
I cannot stand this perspective. Creepy? Absolutely not? Visually pleasing? I’ll admit, no. But this isn’t about what people find visually pleasing. I find it unpleasing to visualize an obese women having sex with an obese man. In fact, I find it unpleasing to picture most people having sex. That doesn’t mean what they’re doing is wrong or meant to be judged by you. It has no impact on your life. Everyone needs to just mind their own business and stop believing their subjective perception of what’s pleasing to them is what should be pleasing to everyone else. This world ain’t about you. You’re a small speck in the grand scheme of things. Get out of the way of other people’s happiness.
 

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I'll say this again: All proof of causality is accompanied by a very high correlation. So while not all high correlations = causality, all causality = high correlations. And your shoe size study isn't really relevant in this instance, we're talking about a behavioral phenomena, not an intellectual one. Behavior is strongly influenced by past experience, this is an unquestionable fact.
.
This statement is correct. The problem is you stated a correlation to imply causation.
 

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No, I just really hate f-ggots because I'm actually very sexually attracted to men but repress this due to the intense self-hatred it causes me, and this repression becomes anger, frustration, and then rage, which completely clouds my ability to be rational or reasonable. So, I get my kicks by beating up gays all the while wishing I was having sex with them.

Does that answer your question?
Yyyup.
 
muscleupcrohn

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No, I just really hate f-ggots because I'm actually very sexually attracted to men but repress this due to the intense self-hatred it causes me, and this repression becomes anger, frustration, and then rage, which completely clouds my ability to be rational or reasonable. So, I get my kicks by beating up gays all the while wishing I was having sex with them.

Does that answer your question?
That would explain a lot actually.

And before you ask, nothing goes over my head. I’m too fast; I’d catch it.
 
rochabp

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Imo there’s a lot of closeted queer projection in this thread...
 

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Wow dude assume much? You dont know anything about me. You can talk to anyone on here ive had dealings with about my character. Ive been around a minute. Just because im from north idaho doesnt mean anything. I find it crazy that i talk about my beliefs about this and get attacked. I was raised and taught a certain way. God created humans to be a certain way. I was raised to believe that god created us the way we are for a reason and the stuff thats happening in the world today doesnt have anything to do with god i can tell you that.
I know the quote above wasn't directed towards me, but let me try to tackle this from Christian perspective, as I believe that is where you are coming from. I am not going to sugarcoat things or slowly work into my main point, so here goes. The Bible, if read in context, most certainly teaches that someone could be born gay...or at least with the predisposition for homesexuality at puberty, which is basically the same thing (as young, prepubscent children do not desire anyone sexually). Does the Bible say homosexuality is sinful? Yes. So, if one is a christian, how do they reconcile these two beliefs? Easy. The Bible teaches that the first man was made perfect, but became imperfect through sin, and as a result, everyone post-Adam was born with a sinful nature. The sinful nature, while being "unnatural" in a pre-fallen state, has now become the new "natural" in our fallen state. Therefore, we are all born with a predisposition for what the Bible refers to as "sin"--sin being anything which violates God's original, natural order and/or moral law. This includes things like drug addiction, anger issues, all types of mental illnesses, homosexuality, etc., etc., etc. We see these things run in familes. There is a known genetic component for all of them...and not just these, but anything and everything we are.

Yes, our environment can most definitely condition us to accept or deny certain behaviors, but it is not the root cause of our inability to conform to God's natural order and/or moral law. This includes one's sexual preference. Therefore, one can believe people are born gay/with a predisposition for being gay without it contradicting God's word, just as much as one can believe a person could be born with a predilection for alcoholism without it contradicting Gods's word. In fact, to believe that homsexuality is somehow unnatural to the fallen state and therefore unique in its origin, while believeing that all other sins are the result of our fallen nature, makes no sense. There is no blibical precedent for such a belief. The bottom line, according to the Bible, is that all sin is the result of our fallen nature, which has now become the new natural for all mankind.

Of course, we are not all prone to the same desires, nor do we all struglle with the same things, but regardless of what issues we have, the root cause is the same. The church at large has erred in interpreting this aspect of biblical truth...and it has caused many to lose faith in the church. If one recognizes the Bible as a source of authority, then such an individual can only conclude that those who desire homosexual relations do so for the same reason that the rest of us struggle to obey God's laws--mankind's fallen nature. This is why the Bible says we ALL fall in the same boat as imperfect beings (in one way or another) and are in need of God's salvation. That is the whole reason for the birth of Jesus Christ--that he would die for the sins of all, so that whosoever might believe in him should not die, but have eternal life. Homosexuality is not some unique sin that people engage in just because they want to break God's law. They do it because it is what comes naturally to them.

Now it's time for a little common sense. It is way easier to be straight in this world than to be attracted to the same sex. With all the problems a gay person encounters in this world, why would ANYONE choose to be gay? Just to break God's law? No. Many of these people have suffered tremendously because of it...and wanted to be anything but gay. Some commit suicide because they feel like there is no escape from the hardships they face. NO ONE would choose to suffer (and epecially die) if they could just as easily choose to be attracted to the opposite sex and avoid all those problems in the first place.
 
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Hey Mike Arnold quick question, trest transdermal or trest oral? Which one is more effective? I have yet to see any studies here
 
muscleupcrohn

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Solid theological post Mike! Even if one does hold that homosexuality is a sin, it is hardly the only one, and hardly unique. Some churches will ostracize and demonize gays, but not bat an eye at the pastor who cheated on his wife several times, gambles too much, etc. Hell, the New Testament and Jesus condemns adultery far more than homosexuality. At least two consenting gay adults aren’t harming anyone, while adultery involves lying to someone, breaking an oath/promise (marriage) with them. But I haven’t heard of Christians saying that people who cheat on their spouses need to go to some reconditioning camp or be exiled from the church.
 

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Hey Mike Arnold quick question, trest transdermal or trest oral? Which one is more effective? I have yet to see any studies here
Oral administration has very poor bioavailability. Transdermal is potentially much better, but injection is far superior to them all.
 

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