Transdermal homemade formula input needed

TOYFORDOLET

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I was just thinking with the popularity and positive feedback of dermacrine and derm sustain and the newly found potential of resveratrol being SERM-like that it might be beneficial to get some input as to putting together an effective transdermal formula(s). I don't really have any specific goals for the formula but rather looking for ideas for different goals such as PCT, general hormonal boost, cutting fat, etc. I am thinking of compounds like resveratrol, chrysin, formestane, dhea & analogues, rasberry ketones, etc. Any input would be great and again I would just like to kick around some ideas and dosages and maybe other possibilities of substances with low enough molecular weight for TD application. :type:
 
EasyEJL

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definitely transdermals are interesting, no doubt there
 
EasyEJL

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I think just homebrewable legal formulas for actives. I'm still wanting to try forskolin transdermal as a tanning aide :)
 
TOYFORDOLET

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What about a res/form mixture, anyone know what dosage of res would be effective TD twice a day?
 
TOYFORDOLET

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Would penetrate be a decent carrier for res? I am thinking something along the lines of 100mg res per 50mg form.
 
EasyEJL

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should be, just make sure you get the 98% resveratrol, not the normal 50% stuff
 
heebs10

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good thread. is bulk res a white powder?

i would think penetrate would be a good choice for a carrier as its used with form and is systemic. then again im not positive it will work for res. im very interested in this as well. TD from + res = sweet IMHO. carious as to dosage for TD res as well.
 
EasyEJL

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the 98% is white, the 50% (what is common in capsules) is brown
 
TOYFORDOLET

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Well this is what Derm Sustain has:

Phyto-aI complex

99% Resveratrol
7,8 Benzoflavone 185mg

Itd be nice to know how much is res. If a guy were to take 100mg twice daily he would be getting more than whats in Sustain(I think Sustain is supposed to be taken once per day right?).
 
bound

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Well, either way, the carrier needs to be taken into account depending on what additives are thrown together.
Could you explain this a bit? I don't know too much about carriers. Do you mean that some carriers might effect/destroy some supps, or that the carrier just won't dissolve or transport them? Thanks!

Maybe we could start a list of some of the chems that could be used transdermally? Would help with tossing out combo options.

We've got:

Formestane
resveratrol
chrysin
dhea
 
rpen22

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Could you explain this a bit? I don't know too much about carriers. Do you mean that some carriers might effect/destroy some supps, or that the carrier just won't dissolve or transport them? Thanks!
Not necessarily destroy the active, but more like not transport the active properly(eg. Penetrate is meant for Lipophilic compounds, as opposed to Hydrophilic).

Here are some articles that I think will help clear things up a bit more regarding transdermals/percutaneous topicals:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par1.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par6.htm
 
poopypants

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so IF someone had a prohormone and desired to create a transdermal out of it then penetrate would be sufficient since most are lipophilic, correct? would it be just as effective ass the DMSO homebrew transdermal recipies out there?
 
thundergod

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Would the 50% res not be a viable option at all? I'm taking it orally right now. It would indeed go further in a transdermal. I just didn't know it would work in one. If the 50% won't work then could someone clue me in on where to find some 99%? Thanks everyone! I'm using a form/trione trans right now and loving it. I would throw in a little res next time if it works like that.
 
EasyEJL

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the problem with the 50% is both color as well as not being sure how transdermally taking the 50% that ISNT transresveratrol might affect you
 
thundergod

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Easy-- Thanks for the input. I would guess that the 50% that isn't pure resveratrol would still be the red wine extract or grape seed extract. Either way it shouldn't hurt you. I think I'll toss some in a trans next time around and see how it works. I'll let everyone know!!
 
thesinner

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Would the 50% res not be a viable option at all? I'm taking it orally right now. It would indeed go further in a transdermal. I just didn't know it would work in one. If the 50% won't work then could someone clue me in on where to find some 99%? Thanks everyone! I'm using a form/trione trans right now and loving it. I would throw in a little res next time if it works like that.
While your intentions are exclusive, absorption is a slave to entropy (not exclusive).

Think of it this way:

You are the owner of the nightclub.

In order to get guys coming to the club and buying drinks, you offer a "ladies drink free" night.

Ladies night will draw in two different kinds of ladies:
-1- The smokin' hot ones. (desired)
-2- The tanker broads who can drink their weight in beer. (not desired)

Now your nightclub has a limited capacity set by state fire marshall. This means only so many ladies can get into the club. Would you rather have 99% the female population coming in to be the smokin' hot ones, or 50%?
 
thundergod

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Sinner--- Thanks. Always great to hear your input as I highly regard your insight. I easily understand that 99% is beter than50% of course. That's the reason I asked someone to clue me in on where to find the 99%. All that I see on a google search is outrageously priced! I was just wondering if you COULD use the 50% in a transdermal. But if not, I'll keep on using it orally. Thanks!
 
rpen22

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so IF someone had a prohormone and desired to create a transdermal out of it then penetrate would be sufficient since most are lipophilic, correct?
Yes. Penetrate is the same as the old Avant PH Gel.
 
crader

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While your intentions are exclusive, absorption is a slave to entropy (not exclusive).

Think of it this way:

You are the owner of the nightclub.

In order to get guys coming to the club and buying drinks, you offer a "ladies drink free" night.

Ladies night will draw in two different kinds of ladies:
-1- The smokin' hot ones. (desired)
-2- The tanker broads who can drink their weight in beer. (not desired)

Now your nightclub has a limited capacity set by state fire marshall. This means only so many ladies can get into the club. Would you rather have 99% the female population coming in to be the smokin' hot ones, or 50%?

Haha, very good explanation, but I bet he wants the drunk tanker broads!:stick:
 
thundergod

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crader-- I like both kinds actually!! Hot and smokin' and hot blooded tankard queens!!!
 
thesinner

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Haha, very good explanation, but I bet he wants the drunk tanker broads!:stick:
The tanker broads tend to have a lot more personality and are more fun to talk to, but most guys aren't wanting to go dance with fat chicks in hopes to hook up later......most guys.
 
TOYFORDOLET

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Well, I found in the PP forum that Derm Sustain has 134mg of 99% res, so I think 100mg twice daily may be viable.
 
poopypants

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thanks, rpen i was just wondering as well though it its just as effective as chemo's old homebrew formula with DMSO and all that jazz or not....

also can it have DMSO added to it in order to increase absorbtion further? i know DMSO is pretty strong and may cause more of the other stuff in most trans carriers to come through as welll but how bad would this really be?

Maybe sinner do you know much about this?

one last thing... if using a capped powder that undoubtedly ahs fillers in it as well how much of a trouble would it cause? would the fillers be absorbed as well? would tey block any absorbtion? or would they just sit on the surface of the skin unable to be absorbed?

ive read most of these things before but cant remember for the life of me and sadly enough the transdermal and homebrew forums were taken down and i am not sure if any of the posts still exist in the search database since i cant pull them up in the main forum :(
 
thesinner

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If you want to add DMSO to Penetrate, add about 10% (25mL) to your mixture. I'd advise this if you're planning to push the limits with your carrier as it not only increases solubility of actives, but is a potent penetration enhancer.
 
EasyEJL

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whats the molecular mass limit on transdermals? I kinda remember in the 300s
 
thesinner

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It's not "really" the molar mass that causes the limit.

The actual issue is the size of the molecule. It's like sucking a golfball through a garden hose; only talented individuals can make it happen.

Since the size of the molecule is roughly corrrelated with the weight (and the fact that weight is 100000000x easier to get an accurate measure of), we go with weight. 300 g/mole is the general rule of thumb. You can go higher or lower, but factors such as molecule orientation can become a bigger issue with larger molecules.

Think of it like this (with regards to orientation as an issue):
Drill a whole bunch of holes into a board, and set it on top of two paintcans.
Throw a handfull of nails at it. Some nails will go through the holes and some won't. The nails that landed sideways won't make it through the board.
 
poopypants

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awesome, thanks man. i just have to figure out where i can pick up DMSO now.
 
heebs10

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Well, I found in the PP forum that Derm Sustain has 134mg of 99% res, so I think 100mg twice daily may be viable.
is that 134mg per bottle or per dose?
 
heebs10

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If you want to add DMSO to Penetrate, add about 10% (2.5mL) to your mixture. I'd advise this if you're planning to push the limits with your carrier as it not only increases solubility of actives, but is a potent penetration enhancer.
by 10%, would you be referring to something like Dmso Liquid, 90% Dmso / 10% Distilled Water and 2.5ml of this solution is added to the penetrate?

if you add the DMSO to the penetrate what kind of increase would you get in absorption(percentage wise) and solubility (in grams i guess). for example, 8oz of normal penetrate with 5g of form, then if you add the DMSO, could you add a decent amount of something like 98-99%trans-Resveratrol and how much better will it absorb?
 
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by 10%, would you be referring to something like Dmso Liquid, 90% Dmso / 10% Distilled Water and 2.5ml of this solution is added to the penetrate?

if you add the DMSO to the penetrate what kind of increase would you get in absorption(percentage wise) and solubility (in grams i guess). for example, 8oz of normal penetrate with 5g of form, then if you add the DMSO, could you add a decent amount of something like 98-99%trans-Resveratrol and how much better will it absorb?
I was really hoping no one quoted me on that, because I screwed up my decimal place. (should be 25mL)

There is only going to be an 2% difference in DMSO concentration (v/v) if using 90% liquid versus powder. Since the total volume of your carrier changes with the addition of powder (by an amount unique to your specific solvent and solute) it's hard to make transdermal homebrews an exact science.

It's tough to say how much better it will absorb without any clinical data (I don't have any clinical data). There is no empirical method of figuring out transdermal absorption, so there's really no way for me to answer your question. Does that make sense?

Transdermals are not an exact science. Surpisingly enough, if you want to minimize the voodoo, in this case you have to become a pin cushion (just had to get that line in :D)
 
heebs10

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I was really hoping no one quoted me on that, because I screwed up my decimal place. (should be 25mL)

There is only going to be an 2% difference in DMSO concentration (v/v) if using 90% liquid versus powder. Since the total volume of your carrier changes with the addition of powder (by an amount unique to your specific solvent and solute) it's hard to make transdermal homebrews an exact science.

It's tough to say how much better it will absorb without any clinical data (I don't have any clinical data). There is no empirical method of figuring out transdermal absorption, so there's really no way for me to answer your question. Does that make sense?

Transdermals are not an exact science. Surpisingly enough, if you want to minimize the voodoo, in this case you have to become a pin cushion (just had to get that line in :D)
i get what your saying and thanks fro the help but can you tell me if this makes any since. wikipedia says resveratrol's solubilities in DMSO is 16g/L. so 1L=1000ml, so 1000/40=25ml of DMSO, and 16g/40=.4
meaning if i use 25ml of DMSO, the most resveratrol i can put in it is 400mg? if this is the case, and i do this then i can just add the DMSO+resveratrol to my penetrate and form?
 
EasyEJL

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I think you'd be better off with 30ml of alchohol - Solubility in ethanol 50 g/L. so you'd get 50/33. I guess that isn't including though the base solubility in the penetrate matrix.
 
EasyEJL

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anecdotally, I have heard that 12g of 98% resveratrol goes into solution in an 8oz penetrate
 
thesinner

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i get what your saying and thanks fro the help but can you tell me if this makes any since. wikipedia says resveratrol's solubilities in DMSO is 16g/L. so 1L=1000ml, so 1000/40=25ml of DMSO, and 16g/40=.4
meaning if i use 25ml of DMSO, the most resveratrol i can put in it is 400mg? if this is the case, and i do this then i can just add the DMSO+resveratrol to my penetrate and form?
solubility is not commulative.

If you mix a resveratrol/DMSO solution with a Formestane/penetrate solution, both solutions diffuse into one another. Meaning you will have DMSO, Formestane, and Resveratrol dissolved in your Penetrate matrix.

my recommendation would be to throw everything into the Penetrate, and add DMSO as needed. 10% is preferred, you could go up to 15% DMSO if needed (40 mL total of DMSO).

Careful with the DMSO, though, it smells bad, may irritate your skin, and causes bad breathe.
 
thesinner

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I think you'd be better off with 30ml of alchohol - Solubility in ethanol 50 g/L. so you'd get 50/33. I guess that isn't including though the base solubility in the penetrate matrix.
This issue with alcohol is its rate of evaporation. You want the solvent to penetrate the skin, so it can "smuggle" through the actives. If you're using straight alcohol (or too much alcohol) you won't get much through, and the actives will just crystalize on top of your skin.
 
poopypants

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so the 10% of DMSO refers to the total amount of liquid and powder used correct?

say 8oz (240ml) of penetrate, 10g of powder @ ~1g/ml weight/volume correlation = 250ml

making it 10% of 250ml would be total of 25ml of DMSO added.... is this correct? is my math off? thats typically the correct mg/ml correlation of most powders right?

and would yeild a total of a 275ml solution @ 36.36mg/ml?
 

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I've been wanting to try a resveratrol/6-oxo/baet transdermal blend as a general pro-testosterone, anti-cortisol wellness tonic
 

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