training variations on steroids

[raybravo]

these are some ideas on training on a steroid cycle, while attempting to gain muscle lets assume, some of these ideas are mine, others are borrowed but they definitely work ...
so i thought would be cool to get a discussion going on these, everyone feel free to post in additions, contradict me or whatever.

some things u can do and should do differently on a cycle :

1) use slightly higher volume FOR THE WEEK, not for the workout, this means use higher reps, always above 6 reps, and normally around 8 rep range.

2) Dont use extremely drastic training, ie dont think of annihilating the muscle. Somehow steroids work less efficiently when this is done.

3) Incorportate streching movements, try doing a search on "extreme streching", doggcrapp's ideas on this are the best.

4) try to train each bodypart twice a week, this would mean u will have to considerably lower training volume FOR THE WORKOUT but since u train it again in the week, the total load on the muscle should be higher than what it was OFF cycle.

5) keep out of useless movements, shaping exercises and other such wussy things u learn from magazines.

now moving on to what to do off cycle:

1) dont train the smaller muscles much, so pretty much stick to pressing movements, ie bench/incline for the chest, chins and deadlifts for the back, squats and stiff leg deads for the hammies, and dips for the triceps, this is enough.

2)train only 3-4 times a week, each muscle only one per week, but movements should be heavy, but again, for the 4 weeks of pct, keep rep range within 6-10.

3)After 6 weeks, emphasise negatives, drop sets for each muscle at the end of the training session for the muscle.. this is in prepration for the next cycle. So that u have increased AR count, insulin sensitivity etc when u cycle again.

Some general rules:

1)dont use anti oxidants before workouts.

2)always use atleast 50 gms of slow release protein before workout. keep carbs low.

 

[riskarb]

Excellent thread, Ray. :cheers:

 

[WATERLOGGED]

this imfo was interesting thanks ray. ,it'll help out next cycle

 

[Neuromancer]

:goodpost:

 

[hethcliff]

5) keep out of useless movements, shaping exercises and other such wussy things u learn from magazines.


i couldn't agree more, not just on gear but while off. i'm a huge believer in compound movements over isolation movements. squats, deads, bench, military press, weighted dips, weighted pullups. i have a buddy of mine who never did deads or squats and since lifting with him i got him to do them and he put on 10 lbs in 5 weeks just by incorporating squats and deads, no gear or change in diet. now he LOVES deads. they are by far my favorite lift, just lifting up big weight with deadlifts is so satisfying. people look a tme like i'm an alien when i do them in my schools gym except for one of the girls who works there. she was on the powerlifting team for her highschool and said i was one of the few people she saw who did them. this girl was smoking hot with an amazing ass that she contributes to squats

 

[Strateg0s]

Some general rules:
1)dont use anti oxidants before workouts.
2)... keep carbs low.

:think:

 

[kwantam]

:think:

Hmmm... perhaps by keeping pre-wo carbs low, you bump the insulin sensitivity of the muscles you work. Then your post-workout dex will be even more effective in getting those nutrients in there.

...or should I get a glass belly button so I can see where I'm going with my head this far up my ass?

-kwantam

 

[raybravo]

Some general rules:

1)dont use anti oxidants before workouts.

2)always use atleast 50 gms of slow release protein before workout. keep carbs low.

taken from bryan haycock's website :

Antioxidants significantly reduced erk1/2 and had no effect on p38...I personally have stopped the high-dose antioxidants. It’s true that antioxidants have been shown to decrease the signal for hypertrophy. Will taking an antioxidant after training have a "significant" detrimental effect? I don't know. I'm the type that avoids anything that has been shown to reduce hypertrophy so I only take antioxidants during SD or on the second day of rest (weekend).

and the idea behind keeping carbs low is simple, elevated insulin levels is going to do nothing but decrease performance, its just common sense.

 

[Beowulf]

1) use slightly higher volume FOR THE WEEK, not for the workout, this means use higher reps, always above 6 reps, and normally around 8 rep range.

2) Dont use extremely drastic training, ie dont think of annihilating the muscle. Somehow steroids work less efficiently when this is done.

4) try to train each bodypart twice a week, this would mean u will have to considerably lower training volume FOR THE WORKOUT but since u train it again in the week, the total load on the muscle should be higher than what it was OFF cycle.

I have these three worked into my superdrol plan. Check it out if anyone is interested. I plan to stop 1 rep short of failure.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25531

 

[lifted]

and the idea behind keeping carbs low is simple, elevated insulin levels is going to do nothing but decrease performance, its just common sense.

I still don't understand this. What do you mean by performance? Increased glycogen storage will contribute to better workouts.

Also, I still can't train BP's twice/week while on AAS....I stil OT that way. 3-4 day split mx for myself.

Duing PCT, I only train each BP once every 14-15 days or so. I usually just use a push/pull/leg split amd simply put 4-5 days rest in between each session. Works wonders for keeping my gains. Other's mileage may vary though.

 

[baby a]

Some general rules:

1)dont use anti oxidants before workouts.

2)always use atleast 50 gms of slow release protein before workout. keep carbs low.[/QUOTE]


If you are referencing information from Bryan Haycock's HST site, #2 SHOULD read: use FAST-release protein before workouts (ie whey). It doesnt need to be 50g either, especially if you follow his advice on consuming post-WO slow digesting protein.

 

[raybravo]

no i know that, my feeling is a slow release would work better and most of them have certain amt of whey in them so our purpose is served, and the 50 gm idea is just to get in people's head that maximum amt of protein should be ingested around workout periods, ive felt around 150-200 gms protein can be used around workout time, especially if something to increase nutrient drive into the cell is being used...

I still don't understand this. What do you mean by performance? Increased glycogen storage will contribute to better workouts.

ofcourse, increased glycogen storage is good for workouts, not elevated insulin levels. they're not the same thing no?
and for the splits, its rare that you would over train with such low volume, but if u do, then its upto u , the indivudual to find the training volume at which u are able to use progessive loads.

 

[Sir Foxx]

What is your opinion then of GVT while on cycle? That is my plan for my next cycle.

 

[raybravo]

i dont like GVT at all, its one of the worst ways to train, especially on steroids bro, consider other training methods, haycock's method, doggcrapp's method, or atleast a training program which incorporates ideas from these people are what is needed on a cycle.

 

[lifted]

ofcourse, increased glycogen storage is good for workouts, not elevated insulin levels. they're not the same thing no?

The only thing I can think of that would have a negative when insulin levels are high is a reduction of fat-loss and a reduction in natty GH release. I'm just asking....how and by what means are elevated insulin levels contributing to negative outcomes in performance? The GH-release is small and if you're bulking then that would also make the fat-loss issue redundant. Again, could you please explain...I'm just trying to understand.

 

[UNDERTAKER]

can someone post the links to these? haycock's method and doggcrapp's method....I had them saved a while ago but I lost them. I am not "on" but I am on my fourth week of GVT I its really losing its effect. You are supposed to do it for 6 weeks. I think its better used as a throw off to your regular routine, something you do for only like 1-3 weeks.

 

[LCSULLA]

Don't know about Hycock's but DC can be found at Intensemuscle.com.

 

[Sir Foxx]

i dont like GVT at all, its one of the worst ways to train, especially on steroids bro, consider other training methods, haycock's method, doggcrapp's method, or atleast a training program which incorporates ideas from these people are what is needed on a cycle.

Interesting. I've had many tell me that it is a great way to train while on. I've never done it, thought I would give it try. So many competing theories, so little time left to decide. :think:

 

[raybravo]

guys, am in a hurry, will come back later and post more in detail on how insulin levels affect training and also on negativities of GVT and how its not suited for most people.

 

[AcuDoc]

I would think antioxidants after a workout would be a good idea.

BTW I would also put Westside and FI's Russian Bench routine in there for good programs while on.

 

[lifted]

acudoc, where can I find info on that Russina bench routine? Thx

 

[AcuDoc]

acudoc, where can I find info on that Russina bench routine? Thx

Here is the routine. I am starting to go towards PL more than BB am just finishing it and have found it a great way to boost my bench.

I am finding my new 1 RM tomorrow but so far I think I'm up around 10-15lbs on my flat and inlcine press. Strangely my squat has also gone up around 20 lbs. as well-I'm not complaining though!

I'm not on cycle and it's gruelling but I never felt OTed. Just on the edge at times and with a little sleep my CNS caught up. I highly recommend it and I imagine on cycle the strength gains would be absolutely incredible.

http://www.fortifiediron.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=63

 

[raybravo]

why not insulin during workouts?
->increasing insulin during a work-out will make you lose your drive. When insuilin goes to work amino acids are shuttled in the cell, all except Tryptophan. So now there is an unusually high level of tryptophan in the blood that will cross the BBB and increase the neurotransmitter GABA in the brain. GABA increases serotonin and you get sleepy- big cat.

->Performance is best when insulin is low and glycogen is high. Try going on a ketogenic diet for 10 days, then use two days to lower fat and restore glycogen by eating pasta, drinking dextrose shakes and the like. Then do not eat 2 hours prior to your game or whatever and see how well you do. Insulin is low, but glycogen is highest. Now try the same thing with eating a meal right before the game or performance and see how you do ... Glycogen is high, but so is insulin- big cat.

there was a good discussion about this on bbing.com, check it out :
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=69328&page=1&pp=30&highlight=insulin+performance+reduce

about the german volume training aspect, i just dislike the amt of volume in that routine, ive never seen anyone gain well on it and its just an useless investment, its a ten week protocol and i'd rather see people do a HST or a DC type routine, espcially on a steroids protocol, here's haycock's take on it,he's a little more nicer on ths topic :
For simplicity, I am going to quote Charles Poliquin. He did not invent GVT, so I don't want to give the impression that I am in any way critiquing Charles. I'm only critiquing the method. I'm just quoting Charles because he did a good job summarizing the method. His comments will appear in italics.

The Goal of GVT
As to people's question about whether GVT is hypertrophy-specific, we must take a look at the goal of GVT. The clearly stated goal of GVT is to complete 10 sets of 10 reps without reducing the weight. So right from the beginning we see that the goal of anyone using GVT is not hypertrophy, but endurance of strength in the 10 rep range.

The Principle of Specificity
IF GVT adheres to the principle of "Specificity", GVT will have to stick with high volume and significantly light weights in order to condition your body to be able to perform 10 sets of 10 reps without reducing the weight load. And this is in fact what GVT does. "You want to begin with a weight you could lift for 20 reps to failure if you had to. For most people, on most exercises, that would represent 60% of their 1RM load."

So rather than using "load" or "muscle tension" which is a principle specific to hypertrophy, GVT uses fatigue to increase the "difficulty" of lifting a light weight, thereby making it "feel" heavy. Inducing fatigue is a principle specific to endurance.

The Principle of Progressive Load
GVT does use the principle of progressive load however. According to Poliquin, "Once you're able to do 10 sets of 10 with constant rest intervals, increase the weight on the bar by 4% to 5%, and repeat the process." So although GVT does not incorporate heavy weights, it does increase the light weights from time to time. Unfortunately, because of the use of fatigue as GVT's primary stimulus, the muscle is at the mercy of the nervous system. Unless you get stronger, which is a known neurological mechanism, the muscle will never be subjected to an increase in tension, and thus will not experience a hypertrophy-specific stimulus.

The Principle of Training Frequency
Due to the significant demands placed on the central nervous system (CNS) a GVT workout can't be completed but every 5 days. "Because this is such an intense program, it'll take you longer to recoverÅ*one training session every four to five days per body part is plenty." Now the consequences of too infrequent training are not all or none. It is a matter of degrees. Sure, it's not ideal for hypertrophy to train once every 5 days. But it works just fine for CNS recovery, and considering the goal of GVT, which is strength-endurance, it makes perfect sense.

The Principle of Adaptation (resistance to the stimulus)
GVT training in its pure form does not take this factor into consideration. Nor has any training routine until the time of HST. Without Strategic Deconditioning, continued gains in size come glacially slow, or stop all together. After all, adaptation is the body's way of preventing any externally applied stimulus or environment from affecting the body. Homeostasis must be maintained if the body is to survive. So, over time, any stimulus grows weaker and weaker until it no longer elicits a response from the body unless that stimulus is increased in magnitude, or it is removed for a time to allow the body to "un-adapt" and become sensitive to that stimulus once again.

All right, I think it is pretty clear that GVT is not "specific" to hypertrophy. However, it does utilize one principle of hypertrophy, namely progressive load, and thus will induce some hypertrophy if an individual is just beginning or is sufficiently deconditioned.

 

[Sir Foxx]

Very interesting. I just looked up HST training and the sample HST routine they showed over a week looks like a program that I've developed(not developed really, I put together routines and label them under certain names from my experience as a bodybuilder) called Power and Bulk. It's basically an all body workout, 3 days a week, and lasts 4 weeks. I cycle this program every 3 months into my routine. All this time I've been doing HST, too funny. I've heard of DC's stuff but have never really looked into it. What are its pro's/con's? What is a sample routine like?

Thanks for the info Ray.

 

[TheUsual]

That is some great info pertaining to GVT, thanks alot.

I think I will go with another routine when I start my superdrol cycle

 

[lifted]

Thanks for the link and info acudoc, I wanna try that out sometime soon.

Ray, I understand what you mean now....I didn't know that insulin had that kind of effect on our workouts like you explained. I was just always told that eating low-GI carbs pre-workout is best...

 

[James007]

I think some of your advice is pretty bad. 50g of protein is a lot pre workout, i would suggest 20-30g of whey. No carbs? I think that's a mistake. If your workouts are pretty long, over an hour, carbs are necessary to blunt the onset of cortisol. You can also easily eat a apple pre workout for some fructose and glucose.

I would NOT do haycocks program on AAS. I think he specifically designed it for maximum hypertrophy while off. I do not think it's enough volume for being on and i think when you're on you should always increase volume. I also subjectively believe more volume is a lot better than HIT after being a staunch follower of HIT for a number of years. Low volume just doesn't pan out.

1) use slightly higher volume FOR THE WEEK, not for the workout, this means use higher reps, always above 6 reps, and normally around 8 rep range.

Makes no sense. first you talk about volume, assuming sets, then you talk about rep rangest. You HAVE to use more volume per workout to equate to more volume per week given you train the same bodypart x amount of times per week on and off.

If you refer to point 4) you made, it is a little more clear/

You have some good advice, but i don't like how you present your information. Sorta like it's the holy grail, and do this or you'll throw away your gains. Arnold trained with high volume, intensity - 6 days a week - training each bodypart 3 times. Almost every professional bodybuilder does the same. This is not an Arnold did this, the pro's do the same sort of argument. I'm also not saying everyone is as genetically gifted as Arnold, but it certainlly seemed to work for him as well as many other people. You cannot just dismiss it on the basis of genetics.

I'd rethink your approach to a much higher volume and much more frequent training. If you don't approach absolute failure you won't necessarily burn out your CNS.

 

[Syr]

I'd rethink your approach to a much higher volume and much more frequent training. If you don't approach absolute failure you won't necessarily burn out your CNS.

I'm not a training expert. But in general higher volume and more frequent training is a good approach and it worked for me. Adding some variation will help as usual.
I dont try a complete new routine when i start a cycle due to the risk that i respond bad to it, wasting the anabolic. I prefer to adjust one the month before and then as i said just raise volume and frequency while on.

 

[CROWLER]

IMO too much of a preworkout meal within an hour of the workout will leave too much blood in the stomach.


Now the question is how much is too much


CROWLER

 

[Syr]

IMO too much of a preworkout meal within an hour of the workout will leave too much blood in the stomach.

Now the question is how much is too much

Good question! We should open another thread

I've hear very different opinions like these:
"eat 50g of protein only"
"you must have a high carb meal 30min before training"
"dont train before 2h after meal"

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Excellent thread, Ray. :cheers:

BUMP!

 

[raybravo]

james007,i see ure not acquainted with the modern training methods and studies, i suppose one of the reasons is u are 53 yrs old, and prolly older bbers occupy ur mind more as well, now onto what u said:

50g of protein is a lot pre workout, i would suggest 20-30g of whey. No carbs? I think that's a mistake. If your workouts are pretty long, over an hour, carbs are necessary to blunt the onset of cortisol. You can also easily eat a apple pre workout for some fructose and glucose.

first of all, why is it too much? off the top of ur head, or becos it sounds too much to u? also, why the HELL Would ur workouts be longer than one hour? thats a basic training mistake, another thing, pre workout protein itself controls cortisol levels to an extent, i hope u are aware of that. and i never said NO CARBS, i said keep carbs low, simply becos higher insulin levels affect performance.

Makes no sense. first you talk about volume, assuming sets, then you talk about rep rangest. You HAVE to use more volume per workout to equate to more volume per week given you train the same bodypart x amount of times per week on and off.

what?! u have to use more volume per workout? where's u get this idea? u need to stop reading arnold's encyclopaedia i think, there are better training methods now! less volume per workout, but the muscles should be trained as frequently as possible, this way progessive loading happens, if u increase the volume per workout, progessive loading is impossible as the CNS is going to play a major factor in limiting the loads u will be able to use. simple fact man.

Arnold trained with high volume, intensity - 6 days a week - training each bodypart 3 times. Almost every professional bodybuilder does the same. This is not an Arnold did this, the pro's do the same sort of argument. I'm also not saying everyone is as genetically gifted as Arnold, but it certainlly seemed to work for him as well as many other people. You cannot just dismiss it on the basis of genetics.

lol i'm not going to pull the genetics card here, but tell me a normal person who works atleast 40 hrs a week or attends classes for just as many, plus has a life can recover from such a workout? besides not being on all the drugs pros are on? btw, many of the pros now are adopting better training methods, dont believe everything u read in the magazines my friend. if u train 6 days a week with each bodypart thrice and with that kind of volume, then enuff said with all the roids u use on a normal cycle, u wont gain more than 10-15 lbs and will prolly end up depressed, tired and maybe even sick.
either way, i dont get anything out of proving u wrong, and vice versa, if u have the smallest open mind, i hope u try some of the suggestions and see for urself.

 

[Beowulf]

Ray, check out the line of questioning I got for using a split that seems consistent to what you've outlined above as an appropriate training protocol: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25531
It starts at post 19, then picks up again on post 30. BTW, any input on the training split would be appreciated. Check out the first post for that info.

 

[raybravo]

i see u have an off day on thursday there , and then train from friday to sunday, so thats a 6 day split, a simple change u can do is just add another off day on monday lets say, ie, u train from monday to wednesday, take thursday off, friday to sunday, monday off, then start tuesday and so on, that way u train 5 days per week no? that should be enough, other things look ok although i didnt look too much in detail, i'm going out of town for the weekend so getting ready .

 

[Beowulf]

Thanks for the input, bro. I neglected to mention that your reccommendation is actually the way I do it. More accurate would be 3 on/1 off, so that I train 6 out of 8 days. More than that would definitely be too much for me, but I like this 8 day split.