Toremifene (fareston) - for Dr.D and others

[UnicronSpawn]

I statcked it with test le (cyp/enth 200mg). I have ran rest in high amounts before, with no signs of gyno, but it seemed as soon as I started injecting the tren ace, 3 days later symptoms started.

then i stopped, started running nolva/a-dex immediately. 5 weeks later, still gyno, starting to get hard..and it hurts! ;p

:blink:

Wow, it happened that fast, huh? If 5 weeks of nolva and A-dex didnt even slow it down then that sounds like a serious case. I dont know if Tor would help or not it this phase, but I know if it were between a longshot with a $60 tor bottle or surgery, Id try the tor before conceding to surgery. Or, you could even start Tor and get an appointment to get it checked out at the same time. Maybe an experienced doctor could tell if it's too late yet, or if surgery is imminent.
Thats crazy that it happend so soon after adding tren, and with such a mild test dose. Especially considering that it didnt just "not go away" when you stopped and began nolva and a-dex.... it actually PROGRESSED despite the anti E's. I guess you must just be predisposed to gyno. Cuz I've run 750mg's test, w/ 500 deca and 112.5 anadrol before w/out an anti E with no gyno. I've also had one instance a couple years ago where high dose SERMS actually seemed like they contributed to my gyno symptoms. Anyway, I wish you luck with that. Gyno can be an emmbarassing (and from what I've heard, painful) thing, and you cant just explain it to anybody the way everyone's been conditioned to look at AAS users as being worse than child molestors. (And thanks to the new unit calculations law that just passed last week, personal users can end up getting more prison time then most child molestors do for one good cycles worth.)

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Based on Bio's report, I'd go ahead and up the Nolva to 20mg/d until the tor gets to you. I'd continue with the SD or M4OHN after the winni runs out, because they have good AI effects with less suppression that the others you mentioned. Keep the hCG at 500iu EOD, unless you start an AI too or up the Nolva to like 40mg (which sounds like it's probably OK to do for a week or less).

So youre saying to continue w/ SD or MOHN until the TOR comes in, but that its OK to use higher doses of nolva as needed for gyno in the mean time?

BTW, the boys seem to be looking more like their old selves I noticed after my 500iu HCG shot today. :woohoo:

 

[Sparetire]

yeah it's crazy.. i've done high amounts of test before, eq, tbol, dbol, masteron but never any sign of gyno. I talked to a friend who's a doc in the HRT biz and he wants to run a blood workup on me - which i'm doing on mondy, but he told me that as long as I can catch it under 2 months or 6 weeks, it can be reversed. He said he has seen it in his biz, but i'm beginning to be skeptical about it, cuz it just kept getting worse for me. I started nolva/femara today, and for the next 2 weeks i'm trying this instead of adex/nolva. In 2 weeks, it will be a total of 8 weeks and if it doesn't seem to be lessening, then my appt. with the plastic surgeon is set on april 13th. I hope it starts to decrease by then, but if not, atleast they'll take the gyno out and part of the gland so it won't happen again, but i'll never run tren or deca ever!

 

[UnicronSpawn]

yeah it's crazy.. i've done high amounts of test before, eq, tbol, dbol, masteron but never any sign of gyno. I talked to a friend who's a doc in the HRT biz and he wants to run a blood workup on me - which i'm doing on mondy, but he told me that as long as I can catch it under 2 months or 6 weeks, it can be reversed. He said he has seen it in his biz, but i'm beginning to be skeptical about it, cuz it just kept getting worse for me. I started nolva/femara today, and for the next 2 weeks i'm trying this instead of adex/nolva. In 2 weeks, it will be a total of 8 weeks and if it doesn't seem to be lessening, then my appt. with the plastic surgeon is set on april 13th. I hope it starts to decrease by then, but if not, atleast they'll take the gyno out and part of the gland so it won't happen again, but i'll never run tren or deca ever!

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you end up not needing the surgery, but from my experience, 1.25mg's/day of femara (letro) doesnt seem to be a whole lot different then taking .5mg's/day of A-dex. But who knows. The surgery is supposed to be expensive, and neccesitates a break from working out. (I think most insurance companies wont cover it to boot.) Good luck with that, I know Id be pretty bummed if I had a full blown case of gyno. I've had some scares, but turned out I was just paranoid over little things like the nipple looking soft or inside out. I never got to the hard painful lump phase thankfully. (knock on wood). Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Sparetire]

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you end up not needing the surgery, but from my experience, 1.25mg's/day of femara (letro) doesnt seem to be a whole lot different then taking .5mg's/day of A-dex. But who knows. The surgery is supposed to be expensive, and neccesitates a break from working out. (I think most insurance companies wont cover it to boot.) Good luck with that, I know Id be pretty bummed if I had a full blown case of gyno. I've had some scares, but turned out I was just paranoid over little things like the nipple looking soft or inside out. I never got to the hard painful lump phase thankfully. (knock on wood). Let us know how it turns out.

Yeah, I was under the same impression also with the a-dex vs letro, but apparently, some respond better to letro than a-dex. I'm hoping that I'm one of those and that letro will clear this up. I'm still going into see the plastic surgeon in a few weeks, especially, if this doesn't work. I'm still unclear what story i'm going to give him, but hopefully in the long run i won't have to do it. The surgery costs 3500$, and financing is available..lol..

 

[UnicronSpawn]

$3,500..... Ouch.

At age 34, I dont think he'll buy the old pubertal gyno story. But I guess thats what doctor/patient confidentiality is for.

 

[Sparetire]

$3,500..... Ouch.

At age 34, I dont think he'll buy the old pubertal gyno story. But I guess thats what doctor/patient confidentiality is for.

I could tell him that I've been 40 pounds overweight all my life until recently and now i noticed it..lol.. i'll figure something out..

lol

 

[UnicronSpawn]

lol, theres guys out there like that too. I remember some show (think it might have been the discovery channel or something) where this poor guy was overweight for years and did tons of cardio and dieted his ass off to loose the weight, but the breasts (wich were a far more advanced case of gyno then I've ever seen from an AAS user), wouldnt go away. He had no idea what gyno was, and just kept dieting and doing his cardio thinking that they would burn off. It wasnt till he saw a doctor about it that he learned that the reason it wasnt going away was because it was gland tissue and not fat. The program I believe was entitled "Men with breasts". And they made no mention of the fact that the condition can also happen from using aromatizeable androgens. (at least not during the parts that I caught.) It just dealt with cases that had purely genetic induced cases. Wich is a welcome change in a society that blames everything from suicide, cancer and gingivitus to the latest space shuttle to blow up on AAS. IE:Newscaster says "in other news a space shuttle blew up today......." Dumbass viewer interrupts "It was the god damn steroids!":icon_lol:

 

[not_big_enuf]

perhaps the dumbass question of the day... does this stuff have to refrigerated? also, any optimal time to dose? at night? thanks...

 

[stumbras]

you can keep it in dark drawer

 

[stumbras]

Re: - for Dr.D and others

i am using letro 2.5 mg ed to get rid of small gyno, should i add Toremifene (fareston) to make it more efective

so far i used letro for 3 days i cant feel anything from it
how long it takes to feel letro results
and how long can i take it

 

[yeahright]

Re: - for Dr.D and others

i am using letro 2.5 mg ed to get rid of small gyno,

From your avatar pic, it looks like you've got more than a small bit of gyno. :icon_lol:

 

[stumbras]

Re: - for Dr.D and others

From your avatar pic, it looks like you've got more than a small bit of gyno. :icon_lol:

I gues i should give my girlfriend some test that she would get huge..... gyno case:rofl:

 

[not_big_enuf]

wow... this stuff is amazing. i HIGHLY recommend

toremifene cit
cortisol blocker
an AI just to be safe
activate

throw in some DHEA and Fenu and you're set. i can't believe how quickly everything came back... i'll still be going a full 4 weeks.

i also added some CEE to my PCT (no CEE while on-cycle)... hopefully that'll give me the extra oomph

aren't you supposed to LOSE something? wow, today's PCTs are stunning...

 

[Ubiquitous]

in 7 days I start PCT after approx 7 months of being suppressed. It's great to hear the positive reviews thus far. I'm excited to see how it works for me.

 

[DR.D]

wow... this stuff is amazing. i HIGHLY recommend

toremifene cit
cortisol blocker
an AI just to be safe
activate

throw in some DHEA and Fenu and you're set. i can't believe how quickly everything came back... i'll still be going a full 4 weeks.

i also added some CEE to my PCT (no CEE while on-cycle)... hopefully that'll give me the extra oomph

aren't you supposed to LOSE something? wow, today's PCTs are stunning...

I tried to tell you guys it was some good stuff! You are correct though, PCT use to be such a dreaded process and now it doesn't even have to slow you down really! The Tor/ACT combo with the other extras you stated (DHEA, fen, cort blocker and CEE) are just superb. No added toxicity, no libido issues, fast bounce back, it's like a dream come true.

You can cut the dose of Tor way back but still treat it as a real PCT and go at least 4wks like you said. I also agree that using just a touch of an AI like 1 Reload or 1 RXT cap with it makes for a well rounded PCT that helps you hold your gains best and improves LH response and Leidig cell sensitivity. The inverse ramp works very well, but just don't go overboard on the AI if you're already using a SERM.

 

[DR.D]

So youre saying to continue w/ SD or MOHN until the TOR comes in, but that its OK to use higher doses of nolva as needed for gyno in the mean time?

BTW, the boys seem to be looking more like their old selves I noticed after my 500iu HCG shot today. :woohoo:

Yeah, did that work? What's new?

 

[not_big_enuf]

Sweet! I'll be doing just that Doc. Thanks for all the info too... and you can definately say "I told you so" on this one.... wow!

Guys, spend the extra money on this. My god, look how hard we work for an extra few pounds, how much money we spend of food, etc. To have a PCT like this so far, and to have it be this smooth, the extra couple bucks is nothing but worthwhile.

I tried to tell you guys it was some good stuff! You are correct though, PCT use to be such a dreaded process and now it doesn't even have to slow you down really! The Tor/ACT combo with the other extras you stated (DHEA, fen, cort blocker and CEE) are just superb. No added toxicity, no libido issues, fast bounce back, it's like a dream come true.

You can cut the dose of Tor way back but still treat it as a real PCT and go at least 4wks like you said. I also agree that using just a touch of an AI like 1 Reload or 1 RXT cap with it makes for a well rounded PCT that helps you hold your gains best and improves LH response and Leidig cell sensitivity. The inverse ramp works very well, but just don't go overboard on the AI if you're already using a SERM.

 

[matt212]

Yeah, I'm about done with my PCT. Strength is about the same as when I ended cycle, lost some weight, but I don't think it was any muscle. Arms are still 18", but I was also using thyrogen-x which has that baet stuff that retain had in it, so they may have also helped. I also took a picture yesterday and compared it with the ending cycle picture, nothing has changed, but noticed a lost of fat around the mid. I think this stuff is the sh**, more people need to get this stuff because it works and plus it would drive the price down.

 

[bioman]

Huge kudos to Dr D for sharing his knowledge about this stuff with us here at AM. IBE is also a life saver...you guys rock for bringing this to market.

Definitely pay the extra $$ for Torm if you can. I never once felt like I was even on PCT. I'll be ending it next weekend but so far I have held onto most of the LBM as far as I can tell (I was pretty fat at the end of this cycle). Strength is good, the boys are happy and mood never dipped into the dreaded PCT blahs.

I did have a nasty rashy outbreak on my back, but I am not sure if Torm had anything to do with it. I had a massage done a few days before it broke out so I think it may have been the oil and it was more like a staph infection than acne. Colloidal silver is killing it off as we speak.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Yeah, did that work? What's new?

Yeah, I switched to SD (wanted to save the MOHN) after the winny ran out, while waiting for my Tor. I've been using the Tor since thursday (the same day I discontinued the SD). So far I feel great, and havent lost any mass that I've noticed. I think the HCG is partly responsible.

When do you think I should stop the HCG?


I've been doing pretty conservative doses. (500iu EOD). And the boys seem to be about normal. The only difference I've noticed between now and when I was on (so far) is that my skin seems to be breaking out a bit more with the anti E's then it was with the androgens. I'll weigh myself tommorow and see how my strengh is holding up. I really want to try to nail the pct on the head this time and not under or over do the HCG.
I have the added luxury this time of being on GH. And the slin and igf havent hurt. Im done with MGF. (went through 3 whole vials in a month.) But in my experimentation, I happened to try something that made me relize that I can actually take slin and IGF together w/out going hypo. (the GH probably helps w/ that.) Normally I wouldnt anyway, since GH and slin together cause such a naturaly liver type IGF surge, but least I know it's not the hypo sentence that I thought it might be.

BTW, thanks again for helping w/ my PCT regimen. I take PCT really seriously, since I know what it feels like to be shut down, or to loose most of my gains. Thats why Im so adamant about a complete PCT.

 

[DR.D]

.... When do you think I should stop the HCG? I've been doing pretty conservative doses. (500iu EOD). And the boys seem to be about normal.

I'd go ahead and stop then. I try to never go more than a wk or 2 into PCT, especially if the boys are back already. The hCG makes me break out every time! Maybe that's it combined with the anti-e's?

 

[not_big_enuf]

fyi to anybody doing any "practical research" with Toremifene Citrate... I'd only go with 120mg for a couple days... that might even be a little high but why not start out with it? i told my wife, "it'll be a little bit until things get back to normal..." then 2 days later... well....

oh yeah... stamina was a bit of a problem... lol... "hey it's the toremifene... sry, i'm done...."

so for those that want to make an IBE bottle last a little longer, i think you can easily start off with 90mg and taper down accordingly....

 

[DR.D]

fyi to anybody doing any "practical research" with Toremifene Citrate... I'd only go with 120mg for a couple days... that might even be a little high but why not start out with it? i told my wife, "it'll be a little bit until things get back to normal..." then 2 days later... well....

oh yeah... stamina was a bit of a problem... lol... "hey it's the toremifene... sry, i'm done...."

so for those that want to make an IBE bottle last a little longer, i think you can easily start off with 90mg and taper down accordingly....

Haha, that's funny man! Can you believe, I had that same "stamina" issue twice before when I was using it. Same thing too, I had started with 120 for the first 2 days. On the second day each of those times, well, lets just say I had to leave work early and go home to change my undies. The embarrassing part is that there wasn't even a woman involved! My HPTA just kicked in so fast I guess I couldn't hold it or something, cause boo-ya! For no apparent reason and out of nowhere! I too tapered the rest of the wk at 90mg after that. It's some potent shiznit. It didn't do me that way this time around, but be warned, it can happen. (lol)

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Man, how come I never have spontaneous orgasms? Thats sounds like it would be great.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

I'd go ahead and stop then. I try to never go more than a wk or 2 into PCT, especially if the boys are back already. The hCG makes me break out every time! Maybe that's it combined with the anti-e's?

Damn! I just reconstituted another batch of organon right before you posted that too!

 

[DR.D]

Damn! I just reconstituted another batch of organon right before you posted that too!

Oh well, don't waste it! Just means you'll have to stretch PCT out another few weeks, it cool though.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Oh well, don't waste it! Just means you'll have to stretch PCT out another few weeks, it cool though.

I'll be out of Tor after 5 weeks from this past thurs (wich would be till wed the 10th of may) If I do 4days of 120mg's, 3days 90mg's 1 wk of 60mg's and 3 weeks at 30mg's. But I wont finish this HCG till Tues april 18th. Could I just go back to boring old nolva when I run out of Tor? or should I just scrounge up another $60 for another Tor? I hate to waste the HCG, but I dont want to let it mess up my PCT either. And money is a bit tight this month. I could just give it to a friend I guess, but the only guys I know coming off anything are taking less suppresive stuff like M1A, or 1AD and they are not "needle" people, so It's more likely I have to either ride it out or throw it out. If I ride it out, I'll end up only having 22days of 30mg/day Tor after the HCG is done, and the high dose part of the taper will (is) occur(ing) while still on the HCG. Is that OK? Or do I need to be off the HCG and in the higher dose period of the curve for the Tor to do it's thing. I've gone from 210 to 257, and really want to get this right! Thanks for putting up with my incessant questioning.

 

[Sky9]

God, I wish they would.

Turkish, start with 60-120mg/d only. This stuff was exceptionally strong to me for some reason. I never took more than 120mg/d. At that dose, spontaneous ejaculation may occur. Yeah, I'm not kidding either. It turns 'em back on that fast!

:toofunny:

 

[bioman]

I'll be out of Tor after 5 weeks from this past thurs (wich would be till wed the 10th of may) If I do 4days of 120mg's, 3days 90mg's 1 wk of 60mg's and 3 weeks at 30mg's. But I wont finish this HCG till Tues april 18th. Could I just go back to boring old nolva when I run out of Tor? or should I just scrounge up another $60 for another Tor? I hate to waste the HCG, but I dont want to let it mess up my PCT either. And money is a bit tight this month. I could just give it to a friend I guess, but the only guys I know coming off anything are taking less suppresive stuff like M1A, or 1AD and they are not "needle" people, so It's more likely I have to either ride it out or throw it out. If I ride it out, I'll end up only having 22days of 30mg/day Tor after the HCG is done, and the high dose part of the taper will (is) occur(ing) while still on the HCG. Is that OK? Or do I need to be off the HCG and in the higher dose period of the curve for the Tor to do it's thing. I've gone from 210 to 257, and really want to get this right! Thanks for putting up with my incessant questioning.

DON't throw it out! Load up doses into individual pins and freeze them. Someone suggested this a long time ago, I didn't really beleive it but since I was in the same boat as you I gave it a try. I've been using the same batch now for cycles over the last year and a half and it still works. This last run it seemed a little less effective..but hey it had kept a long time.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

DON't throw it out! Load up doses into individual pins and freeze them. Someone suggested this a long time ago, I didn't really beleive it but since I was in the same boat as you I gave it a try. I've been using the same batch now for cycles over the last year and a half and it still works. This last run it seemed a little less effective..but hey it had kept a long time.

Ok thanks, I can do that. I've done that with IGF, but it never occured to me to do that in this situation.
Hey, did you use HCG with your Tor this last PCT (the one you said went so well)?
If so, did your HCG overlap into the tor phase?
If yes, at what point during Tor administration did you terminate the HCG?

 

[bioman]

During the 8 week cycle, I used HCG for the last 4 when suppression started to become evident. I used Swale's protocol more or less. I was having a small flare up of gyno so I inculded 20 mg of nolva during this 4 weeks as a precaution. It did not reduce the gyno, but kept it at a status quo. I stopped HCG at the end of the cycle to assess Torm's effectiveness.

As soon as I ended the cycle I started Torm with 25 mg ATD just to make sure the gyno didn't take hold. I was marginally suppressed at the begining of PCt but within two days, the boys were back to 100% in terms of size. Bloat from the cycle started easing off almost immediately as well.

Gyno knot began reducing in size, hardness and tenderness almost immediately. It is now a barely discernable bb sized lump in the chest fat with no sensitivity at all. I am out of Torm and will use 20 mg of Nolva and 50 mg of ATD for another week or two as insurance against the gyno, although in terms of recovery I felt that two weeks on torm was enough to get my levels back. I'll taper off the two compounds during the last week.

Strength has stayed pretty much the same, weight has dropped 7 pounds but that loss is attributable to Custom's Omega fat burner with ATD. LBM seems pretty stable and I look decent as the fat and water is shedding off.

Libido is so-so but that's from the ATD.

All in all, a great PCT so far. Curious to see what happens when I go off PCT completely.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

During the 8 week cycle, I used HCG for the last 4 when suppression started to become evident. I used Swale's protocol more or less. I was having a small flare up of gyno so I inculded 20 mg of nolva during this 4 weeks as a precaution. It did not reduce the gyno, but kept it at a status quo. I stopped HCG at the end of the cycle to assess Torm's effectiveness.

As soon as I ended the cycle I started Torm with 25 mg ATD just to make sure the gyno didn't take hold. I was marginally suppressed at the begining of PCt but within two days, the boys were back to 100% in terms of size. Bloat from the cycle started easing off almost immediately as well.

Gyno knot began reducing in size, hardness and tenderness almost immediately. It is now a barely discernable bb sized lump in the chest fat with no sensitivity at all. I am out of Torm and will use 20 mg of Nolva and 50 mg of ATD for another week or two as insurance against the gyno, although in terms of recovery I felt that two weeks on torm was enough to get my levels back. I'll taper off the two compounds during the last week.

Strength has stayed pretty much the same, weight has dropped 7 pounds but that loss is attributable to Custom's Omega fat burner with ATD. LBM seems pretty stable and I look decent as the fat and water is shedding off.

Libido is so-so but that's from the ATD.

All in all, a great PCT so far. Curious to see what happens when I go off PCT completely.

Sounds like it went great. I guess I'll take one last 500iu shot of Hcg before freezing the rest. That would make it 5 days of overlapping Tor and HCG, and finish up the week w/ 90mgs a day of tor, and 60 next week and 30 for the 3 following weeks.

Oh yeah, about the swale protocol, what was it 250-500 every 3 days while on cycle?

 

[Sky9]

During the 8 week cycle, I used HCG for the last 4 when suppression started to become evident. I used Swale's protocol more or less. I was having a small flare up of gyno so I inculded 20 mg of nolva during this 4 weeks as a precaution. It did not reduce the gyno, but kept it at a status quo. I stopped HCG at the end of the cycle to assess Torm's effectiveness.

As soon as I ended the cycle I started Torm with 25 mg ATD just to make sure the gyno didn't take hold. I was marginally suppressed at the begining of PCt but within two days, the boys were back to 100% in terms of size. Bloat from the cycle started easing off almost immediately as well.

Gyno knot began reducing in size, hardness and tenderness almost immediately. It is now a barely discernable bb sized lump in the chest fat with no sensitivity at all. I am out of Torm and will use 20 mg of Nolva and 50 mg of ATD for another week or two as insurance against the gyno, although in terms of recovery I felt that two weeks on torm was enough to get my levels back. I'll taper off the two compounds during the last week.

Strength has stayed pretty much the same, weight has dropped 7 pounds but that loss is attributable to Custom's Omega fat burner with ATD. LBM seems pretty stable and I look decent as the fat and water is shedding off.

Libido is so-so but that's from the ATD.

All in all, a great PCT so far. Curious to see what happens when I go off PCT completely.

Thats a nice re-cap bioman. I think next time I need to re-up on ancillaries I may give this a try. I just finished off my ATD and even though I like the product, I believe exemestan may be a better option as a steroidial AI. Im still deciding on how I feel about this though as I havent tried it yet. Im glad to hear about the effectiveness of Toremifene in our community as well as the targeted uses of the drug by medical practicianers.

P.S. Sorry for the spelling errors, Im not an english major by any means.

 

[PHWSSJ]

Haha, that's funny man! Can you believe, I had that same "stamina" issue twice before when I was using it. Same thing too, I had started with 120 for the first 2 days. On the second day each of those times, well, lets just say I had to leave work early and go home to change my undies. The embarrassing part is that there wasn't even a woman involved! My HPTA just kicked in so fast I guess I couldn't hold it or something, cause boo-ya!

:icon_lol:

 

[Manu20]

Dr. D...what are your thoughts about running a low dose of this during cycle to prevent gyno and then uping the dosage for pct?

 

[matt212]

Haha, that's funny man! Can you believe, I had that same "stamina" issue twice before when I was using it.

So the stamina issue is apparent with everybody huh? I thought I was just losing my skills. That's good to know, I thought I would have to go to a hypnotist or something. :icon_lol:

That Seifen's Kwang Tze Solution helped out big time though.

 

[not_big_enuf]

Without a doubt it happens. After Day 2 with my libido back, my wife and I had some "play time" together... well, after about 3 seconds I'm like, "uh... well that didn't last long...." but damn it felt good!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!

So the stamina issue is apparent with everybody huh? I thought I was just losing my skills. That's good to know, I thought I would have to go to a hypnotist or something. :icon_lol:

That Seifen's Kwang Tze Solution helped out big time though.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

I wish sexual stamina was my problem. This PCT is not going as well as Id hoped.... Yet anyway. Im feeling all weepy, and depressed. My libido is gone, only 30hrs after my last 500iu shot of HCG. I can only get it up in the morning, or when I watch the hardest porn. I see women and my brain acknowledges that theyre hot, but I get no reaction down stairs. Oh, man this sucks. Now my GF will probably accuse me of cheating cuz I wont have my ussual drive. (She knows I juice, but doesnt get how drastically going off or on can effect sexual behavior.) I thought it might be the ATD, but Im still only at 25mg's a day, and Im supposed to bump it up to 50mg's tommorow. Only good thing is that lean mass loss appears to be minimal so far. (I'll see how strength and body weight are holding tommorow at the gym.) I've even had a gyno scare or two. (no lumps, just soft/inverted nipple, droopy type thing, and not all the time. Could be in my head.) I feel tired and a lack of ambition. And that just fuels the weepy feeling with something to beat myself up about. Man, I hope the Tor starts working its magic soon, cuz I am not liking this. I just came off a tremendous cycle. over 18 weeks, and I gained around 45lbs. Incorporated test (as foundation), Deca, anadrol, winny, GH, slin, MGF, IGF, even superdrol, phera and methoxy trn had turns in the rotation at some point. (still on GH/slin.) And now comes the sucky part where I have to suck it up and take the bad with the good.

 

[matt212]

Without a doubt it happens. After Day 2 with my libido back, my wife and I had some "play time" together... well, after about 3 seconds I'm like, "uh... well that didn't last long...." but damn it felt good!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I know what you mean.:icon_lol: She was looking at me like:blink: and then I was like:yawn:.

 

[not_big_enuf]

For me, keeping gains are primary, no matter what. So if you keep your gains, or a very high percentage, that's awesome. Libido has always been a here and there thing for me. sometimes it just takes me longer to get er back. For me, torem seemed to get things going in the right direction. It's not all the way there, but it definately takes a bit for me. I'm gonna kick in some Fenugreek to hopefully help it out a little bit more.

I wish sexual stamina was my problem. This PCT is not going as well as Id hoped.... Yet anyway. Im feeling all weepy, and depressed. My libido is gone, only 30hrs after my last 500iu shot of HCG. I can only get it up in the morning, or when I watch the hardest porn. I see women and my brain acknowledges that theyre hot, but I get no reaction down stairs. Oh, man this sucks. Now my GF will probably accuse me of cheating cuz I wont have my ussual drive. (She knows I juice, but doesnt get how drastically going off or on can effect sexual behavior.) I thought it might be the ATD, but Im still only at 25mg's a day, and Im supposed to bump it up to 50mg's tommorow. Only good thing is that lean mass loss appears to be minimal so far. (I'll see how strength and body weight are holding tommorow at the gym.) I've even had a gyno scare or two. (no lumps, just soft/inverted nipple, droopy type thing, and not all the time. Could be in my head.) I feel tired and a lack of ambition. And that just fuels the weepy feeling with something to beat myself up about. Man, I hope the Tor starts working its magic soon, cuz I am not liking this. I just came off a tremendous cycle. over 18 weeks, and I gained around 45lbs. Incorporated test (as foundation), Deca, anadrol, winny, GH, slin, MGF, IGF, even superdrol, phera and methoxy trn had turns in the rotation at some point. (still on GH/slin.) And now comes the sucky part where I have to suck it up and take the bad with the good.

 

[matt212]

I wish sexual stamina was my problem. This PCT is not going as well as Id hoped.... Yet anyway. Im feeling all weepy, and depressed. My libido is gone, only 30hrs after my last 500iu shot of HCG. I can only get it up in the morning, or when I watch the hardest porn. I see women and my brain acknowledges that theyre hot, but I get no reaction down stairs. Oh, man this sucks. Now my GF will probably accuse me of cheating cuz I wont have my ussual drive. (She knows I juice, but doesnt get how drastically going off or on can effect sexual behavior.) I thought it might be the ATD, but Im still only at 25mg's a day, and Im supposed to bump it up to 50mg's tommorow. Only good thing is that lean mass loss appears to be minimal so far. (I'll see how strength and body weight are holding tommorow at the gym.) I've even had a gyno scare or two. (no lumps, just soft/inverted nipple, droopy type thing, and not all the time. Could be in my head.) I feel tired and a lack of ambition. And that just fuels the weepy feeling with something to beat myself up about. Man, I hope the Tor starts working its magic soon, cuz I am not liking this. I just came off a tremendous cycle. over 18 weeks, and I gained around 45lbs. Incorporated test (as foundation), Deca, anadrol, winny, GH, slin, MGF, IGF, even superdrol, phera and methoxy trn had turns in the rotation at some point. (still on GH/slin.) And now comes the sucky part where I have to suck it up and take the bad with the good.

To tell you the truth, your feedback on this will be a true test and way more important than what I can offer. It seems like you have alot of things going on with that extensive cycle. That's 18 weeks of some hard stuff compared to my little 6 weeks of PP/Mtrn, so I expect it to be a difference. Best of luck to you, and I'll be following your progress.

 

[anabolicrhino]

Yeah, I know what you mean.:icon_lol: She was looking at me like:blink: and then I was like:yawn:.

Glad I am not alone!..I usually say something like..." your just really hot, I couldn't help it.. oh and I love you"

 

[DR.D]

Glad I am not alone!..I usually say something like..." your just really hot, I couldn't help it.. oh and I love you"

That's a good one! Yeah, I try to tell mine that too, but I figure she probably knows better as I lay there snooring and she has to finish the job herself (lol). I don't make it a habit though.

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D...what are your thoughts about running a low dose of this during cycle to prevent gyno and then uping the dosage for pct?

What's up Manu! I'm not sure about your question. I haven't tried this with toremifene, but it's never worked for me with Clomid or Nolva. In fact, I think maybe that's why I kind of burned out on those 2 years ago and had to find toremifene in the first place. They still work, but I don't respond to them like I once did. I noticed that after ending with 4-6wks of a SERM, it took a proportional time (4-6 more wks) before I could again use one with good results. And that's a minimum in-between time. If I didn't put at least a month in between SERM uses, they didn't work so well. That's one of several good reasons I suggest not using them while on, so that they work best in PCT when you really need them to. If I was going to do a SERM non-stop it would probably be raloxifene, it's got a shorter half-life and washes out MUCH faster after long term use. I really like AI's best while on, like letro or RXT. Still, it probably wouldn't hurt to try this once and see how it works for you. If I did try it on-cycle, I'd do maybe 15mg stacked with some trib at night.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Well. I finally got something similar to that premature ejaculation u guys were talking about. But it wasnt so much blowing super fast. What happens is the stuff starts coming out like 5 secs before the peak of the orgasm, and continue's to do so until the end of the O. Its like an exaggerated pre-cum or something. (Glad my GF cant get pregnant.) Im still a little emotional, but getting better. I think I just wasnt used to having normal feelings anymore. During cycles, I feel stuff, but its like its cushioned. I'll feel good, but kind of nonchalant. Like nothings really a big deal. Then when I come off, I start sweating relationship stuff, or other life things. It's not all anxiety, its just a lot of feelings period. Music seems to effect me even more than ussual.TV show's w/ profound morals to the story seem to "hit home" a bit more. Its Like some sort of sentimental part of my brain has been exposed. My weight is down to about 249 as of friday. I will weigh myself again tommorow and see how my strenth holds up. My strenght was actually still going up as of friday, but the last HCG shot was tuesday so I might of had a little still working for me. (I just started hitting each BP twice a week w/ low volume.) My diets been better than ever (as far as clean bulkers go) but I slipt up just a bit yesterday. (I had 5 clean solid meals, but had two gaps between meals during the day that were longer than ussual, and I dont think my total food intake was as high as its been. I look to me like Ive lost some of the arm mass I gained. they taped out as just a hair over 17 inches pumped on friday, but they look a bit smaller this morning. I cant say if it was cuz of the gaps between meals yesterday, or fewer total calories but if im not imagining things then that implies that I cant get away with any mistakes at all during this PCT. Im taking about every non suppressive anabolic compound one can take for PCT. Not much more I can add. (accept maybe a creatine or NO supp) But I wont have enough cash to last me till next month if I buy anything more between now and then. Im allready bridging w/ GH and alternating slin and IGF. I was on MGF, but that stuff is gone now. Burned a big hole in my wallet by not waiting until a cost effective MGF protocol was developed. But I did gain a 1/4 inch on my arms w/ it. I decided to deviate from my protocol for tor and use yesterday, today and tommorow as additional 120mg's days. It will cut 6 days off the last week (about the whole week) but I felt that I needed to run that dose during the critical couple days after the HCG cleared. (my timing was screwed up, I should have started the Tor right AFTER the HCG, instead of overlapping the HCG into the most critical point in the tor protocol, wich is the 4 days of 120mg's. So, I might have to scrounge up $60 and get me another bottle.

 

[DR.D]

Well. I finally got something similar to that premature ejaculation u guys were talking about. But it wasnt so much blowing super fast. What happens is the stuff starts coming out like 5 secs before the peak of the orgasm, and continue's to do so until the end of the O. Its like an exaggerated pre-cum or something. (Glad my GF cant get pregnant.)

Yeah, it's the hCG. I notice it too. It gives rise to certain practical issues, especially involving oral delivery. Girls seem to confuse it with orgasm and stop a little too early. I hate when that happens! Appartently, it doesn't taste bad, but it makes the actual load itself a bit thicker because it changes the timing on the ejaculatory sequence of events.

Im still a little emotional, but getting better. I think I just wasnt used to having normal feelings anymore. During cycles, I feel stuff, but its like its cushioned. I'll feel good, but kind of nonchalant. Like nothings really a big deal. Then when I come off, I start sweating relationship stuff, or other life things. It's not all anxiety, its just a lot of feelings period. Music seems to effect me even more than ussual.TV show's w/ profound morals to the story seem to "hit home" a bit more. Its Like some sort of sentimental part of my brain has been exposed.

It's the toremifene for sure. Not nearly as bad as Clomid, but emotional liability does occur at higher doses. My biatchs tell me I've been moody for the last 3wks. Ok, if my wife is reading this, my one and only biatch, singular. :run: (J/K!)

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Both my GF and mistress can attest to my emotional state. (sentimental, weepy, in need of confirmation.) Sometimes it feels like Im a chic on her period or something. Its jacked. (I know my GF doesnt read these threads so Im not worried. And my mistress knows about my GF, she just hopes I end up deciding to move over where she's at.) Those are the types of conflicting emotions that become the most exacerbated by the PCT. (for me anyway.)

 

[DR.D]

Both my GF and mistress can attest to my emotional state. (sentimental, weepy, in need of confirmation.) Sometimes it feels like Im a chic on her period or something. Its jacked. (I know my GF doesnt read these threads so Im not worried. And my mistress knows about my GF, she just hopes I end up deciding to move over where she's at.) Those are the types of conflicting emotions that become the most exacerbated by the PCT. (for me anyway.)

I hear ya bro. I don't give good love advice, unfortunately. I still haven't totally figured it out myself. I'm married and haven't had a real mistress in over 6 years, but some of the girls at work try to "take care of me" in various ways when I let them. Some claim I've been really stressing them out emotionally on this PCT, similar to what you have stated. Subjectively, I feel pretty good, but I am more emotional than I'd like to be. I try to use the extra emotional state for some good and make personal improvements with it. I think it's good for the spirit (and BP) to be a little softer and more giving and feeling in general, but you have to be careful not to turn into a girl too, because you just can't get **** accomplished when you wanna cry 2 or 3 times a day! I backed off to 30mg/d and that feels like a much more emotionally balanced dose, but I started at 180 the first wk so there's just a lot in my system even now. Still, I love the stuff. I recovered almost too fast (if that's really possible) and will maybe start at 90-120 next time like I use to. I swear I feel like I'm 15 again in the sack. The ACT/Tor combo ain't no joke. Plus DHEA and fenugreek stacked in too, forget about it! My wife's on the run these days. I can't believe I was on 5mgs of Cialis just 3wks ago after my cycle ended, then 2.5mg 2wk ago then finally had to totally drop it last wk and am still getting hard every time the wind blows! Sex drive and functionality are insane with this PCT combo. God bless IBE for bringing in Tor. Plus, ACT is the closest thing a man can get to multiple orgams. I can usually bust 2 in a row, without stopping, if I want to on that stuff.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

I hear ya bro. I don't give good love advice, unfortunately. I still haven't totally figured it out myself. I'm married and haven't had a real mistress in over 6 years, but some of the girls at work try to "take care of me" in various ways when I let them. Some claim I've been really stressing them out emotionally on this PCT, similar to what you have stated. Subjectively, I feel pretty good, but I am more emotional than I'd like to be. I try to use the extra emotional state for some good and make personal improvements with it. I think it's good for the spirit (and BP) to be a little softer and more giving and feeling in general, but you have to be careful not to turn into a girl too, because you just can't get **** accomplished when you wanna cry 2 or 3 times a day! I backed off to 30mg/d and that feels like a much more emotionally balanced dose, but I started at 180 the first wk so there's just a lot in my system even now. Still, I love the stuff. I recovered almost too fast (if that's really possible) and will maybe start at 90-120 next time like I use to. I swear I feel like I'm 15 again in the sack. The ACT/Tor combo ain't no joke. Plus DHEA and fenugreek stacked in too, forget about it! My wife's on the run these days. I can't believe I was on 5mgs of Cialis just 3wks ago after my cycle ended, then 2.5mg 2wk ago then finally had to totally drop it last wk and am still getting hard every time the wind blows! Sex drive and functionality are insane with this PCT combo. God bless IBE for bringing in Tor. Plus, ACT is the closest thing a man can get to multiple orgams. I can usually bust 2 in a row, without stopping, if I want to on that stuff.

Yeah I gotta admit.... I cant really argue with the effectiveness of this PCT. Considering all the **** I was on and for how long its actually pretty amazing Im holding on to as many of the gains as I am so far.
And despite the sad parts and occasional anxiety, i DO like being able to feel stuff. Like you said, strong feelings are strong motivators.
But it almost seems like drama rears its head in times when Im like that, and I have to wonder if thats the case, or if it just seems like it since I feel more.
I just found out that my mistress hasnt been as forthcoming as we had discussed about seeing people. I confronted her on it and explained that I understand and forgive her if she made out with another guy cuz she's lonely w/ me on the other side of the country and knowing that Im still officially with my GF (who doesnt even know about the situation) but that I wanted us to be able to tell eachother if we're with anyone new. I know shed rather just be with me and only me, and I might move out there when I finish music school and be with her, so I just want to establish a strong trust bond. Not to keep her from being with any temps alltogether. (I know I sound and feel like a hypocrite because my GF has been faithful to me for 3 1/2 years and is getting the shortest end of the stick of us all.) But even though I have very strong feelings for her too, Im not so sure she's THE ONE. But I know that she feels that Im THE ONE. Oh man life seems complicated sometimes. The mistress might me better FOR me. My GF is 13 years older than me and my mistress is only 4 years older. My GF is on disability and will probably never work again, unless its just on the computer from home. My Mistress is on the up and up, she just got promoted to medical and marketing assistant. And she's doing great in school and on her way to becoming an adminstrative assistant at a hospital (least thats her goal.) My GF is overweight, cant exercise much cuz of her fybromyallgia, and refuses to eat good even though she used to teach a nutrition class. She drinks almost ED, (used to be ED without fail, now she occasionaly takes a day or two off) she smokes. She just recently became diabetic (borderline case). And my mistress just quit drinking (We'll see how she does) in order to be a good influence on her little brother. And she also puts some effort in to eating healthy, and she does aerobics and light resistance training. Both are strong women, but my GF is confrontational strong wich means I sometimes have to put up my proverbial dukes and defend my ground, wich I dont like to do, and the arguments are painful and hurtful. The Mistress on the other hand is submissive, and I actually feel like Im being extra good to her when I call her out on not being fair to hersel, Im not dominant, I dont take advantage of a submissive partner, and feel crappy when I have to butt heads with a dominant female. They both love the hell outta me, and even though I was taught that you only love one person, I cant deny that I feel Im in love with both of them. They both have wisdom and life experience to share with me and help me. (even though Im 29 I havent really experienced the "real world" from a providing financially stand point, as Ive been supported through 11 years of school.) My family didnt welcome my GF into our family, and sometimes I feel guilty about that.
The sex is incredible with either of them so thats not an issue. (I mean it would be if that werent the case, but it is.)
****, this is the Toremefene thread Im doing this in? I got to get off of here or else I'll sit here until my life story is on the thread. Sorry.
Let that be a lesson to everyone. Never come off of AAS, or you might go through this drama..........lol ...JK ...... I'll shut up now.