im open to suggestions here, which may add interest to the thread. ive been looking for a way to really bring out the abs wtihout changing my diet. i feel like the weightloss from starving or running is very short lived if you deviate from what amounts to a pretty exhausting struggle. I realized that my ab and torso routine never left me soar, unlike my successful workouts for my other body parts. I was able to accomplish that on a particular ab machine using heavy weight. mind you, i have limited time to train. anyway, i was hitting that machine 5x a week and saw pretty good results, but the areas above my elbows got really sore as basically they were getting blasted with heavy weights 3x a week and then not getting rest on the days between due to the ab machine effect on that area. i had to reduce the amount of times to 3, and also had to attach them to my workout days to have days when weights arent being used. ive also increase volume on the abs for those days. not thrilled about where my waist is at the moment, as ive been hitting the beach and these board shorts i really like that dont fall off really draw a contrast to it. at the moment, i have my sights set on what i think is the most promising fat loss supplement ive ever heard of, other than that i dont have a plan that i feel is going to get me further