Topic of the Week: Is going on HRT still natural to you?

Chuck Diesel said:
Yeah then they will say joe blow cant use it in there organization. Amazon wont sell my preworkout Jp8x hardcore bc they said it produces drug like effects. Its annoying and dumb to me but i have to just suck it up bc they can make whatever rules they want. My procycle cant be used by INBA bodybuiders now
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And you know why? Lawyers and liability. The same people behind making rules for WADA to protect their ass. It has nothing to do with science and all about money.

It's why I don't take the "rules are rules" mindset.
 
Admin said:
And you know why? Lawyers and liability. The same people behind making rules for WADA to protect their ass. It has nothing to do with science and all about money.

It's why I don't take the "rules are rules" mindset.
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Well rules are rules but I see you see them as rules not to level competition in all cases, but from another angle like money. I see
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Well what we mean is if I am at say 400 and I take a very low dose of test to where it shuts down my LH to so low my test ends up at 440 from the synthetic test and the little my body produces.....that would be stupid and what would happen is the dose would be too low and so the HRT doctor or my buddy would double the dose to get me to like 800+

I dont think anyone is on test to shut down their test and just bring it back to where it was synthetically. Its still cheating but dumb.
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Who would put you on trt or hrt with levels at 400?

This discussion is about those who have clinically low T (below the "normal" reference ranges being bought up to within range. Mot a guy at 1000 going on trt so he can have 1010
 
Jiigzz said:
Who would put you on trt or hrt with levels at 400?

This discussion is about those who have clinically low T (below the "normal" reference ranges being bought up to within range. Mot a guy at 1000 going on trt so he can have 1010
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No one. I was just shooting out a,n u number. In sports any HRT that involves hormones isnt natural. 200 to get to 400. 400 to get to 800. 100 to get to 300....its still not natual. Clinically low can range from sub 100 to 300 depending on age....regardless if it needs to be treated w drugs its not called natual. Its call raising test levels w testosterone. Now if total test is like 30 ng/dl then yeah you need more than test injections. Actually low test isnt actually being treated w test. Its being passified w test. Treated would b raising LH.
 
Ref range for test is so broad anyone can say they have not "normal" when range is anything between 150 and 990
 
Admin said:
That's fine but the system itself should be questioned and not blindly accepted. Soon enough your test boosters will be considered as good as steroids to some of these people.
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Accepting authority as truth instead of truth as authority? For those that have power, they seldom admit their ideas and rules are wrong. In this instance it sounds as though they want men to believe that it's a bad thing to feel like the man they should be.
 
Shasow said:
Is there any particular reason you care so much what it's called?
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No actually i dont care. I dont compete in any drug tested organization or take test or care.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Well rules are rules but I see you see them as rules not to level competition in all cases, but from another angle like money. I see
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I think the idea is to level it, but it's gone horribly wrong.
 
Admin said:
But thats not the case. Chuck said if he went on HRT...which would then suppress his natural levels and the injected test would bring him back to normal range. In other words, nothing really changes and it would be pointless for him.

The scenario above takes a guy at 78 and brings him to a normal range. Its a medical condition.

You're talking apples to watermelons.
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if a guy is 240lbs with less than 10% bf with a total test of 78 and then you bring him up to 700 you don't think he would see improvement?
 
thebigt said:
if a guy is 240lbs with less than 10% bf with a total test of 78 and then you bring him up to 700 you don't think he would see improvement?
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If the managed to get those stats with 78ng/dl, then i'd buy him a beer lol. More than likely people with those stats will have a higher bf to lean mass ratio
 
Oh great, first the guy is suffering from ultra low test and now you want to raise his estrogen levels with a beer. You are sooo mean.
 
thebigt said:
if a guy is 240lbs with less than 10% bf with a total test of 78 and then you bring him up to 700 you don't think he would see improvement?
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A guy wouldn't be 240lbs with than 10% bf with a total test of 78.

Stop thinking of theoretical extremes and look at the case in front of you.
 
Admin said:
A guy wouldn't be 240lbs with than 10% bf with a total test of 78.

Stop thinking of theoretical extremes and look at the case in front of you.
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Its possible
 
Jiigzz said:
Do you know somebody?
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No i dont know anyones test levels good or bad. I dont really need to know other ppl hormone levels.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
No i dont know anyones test levels good or bad. I dont really need to know other ppl hormone levels.
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Yeah it's possible...he's at 78 because he's taking 1g a week to reach that size and his blood test was wrong. That's how it's possible.
 
No it isn't.

What ever happens naturally is natural.
If it's in your genes an your t drops, that's what is natural for you personally.

Every one is different
 
Admin said:
This was the discussion I had. I said if you are restoring normal levels, its still natural. The other guy said no....no matter what, if you add anything its not considered natural anymore. He uses the term "natural" to mean whatever you naturally are and for older men, thats lower test. If was an interesting convo...
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Are you talking about me?
 
Define 'natural', and how that would technically apply to pretty much ANYTHING we do outside of sleeping and sh*ting... hell, even these could be debated given our use of posturepedic mattresses and ergnomic toilet seats. Nothing 'natural' about those.
 
Admittedly, I have not read this entire thread so my thoughts may as well have been covered.

1) Most importantly, it depends on the federation's rules. If you aren't allowed TRT then you aren't allowed TRT irrespective of whether you consider it natural or not.
2) Personally speaking, if I had a medical condition and strictly administered the doctor prescribed dosage then I would still want to compete.
3) However, during dieting it is likely that people's testosterone levels will drop significantly so even being within natural physiological levels may confer an advantage to those who aren't on TRT.

My conclusion. I don't know. ;)
 
bdcc said:
3) However, during dieting it is likely that people's testosterone levels will drop significantly so even being within natural physiological levels may confer an advantage to those who aren't on TRT.

My conclusion. I don't know. ;)
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You know, that's a good point I completely forgot about since I'm always on when cutting.

My pops last competition he got too lean an his test level plummeted.
He competes in the senior masters division an some of those other old dudes were def on something.

Pops is too lazy to dr shop, his doc will only give him androgel which he doesn't like so he doesn't take anything
 
If you want to get down to it, if you take ANYTHING that is not food products is unnatural. That means taking anything from aspirin to multivitamins would be considered unnatural.

Now do I feel this is correct? Not at all. In my opinion if someone is on TRT and keeping their levels in normal ranges is still considered natural. Because unless they told anyone they were on TRT, they would never know.
 
sammpedd88 said:
If you want to get down to it, if you take ANYTHING that is not food products is unnatural. That means taking anything from aspirin to multivitamins would be considered unnatural.

Now do I feel this is correct? Not at all. In my opinion if someone is on TRT and keeping their levels in normal ranges is still considered natural. Because unless they told anyone they were on TRT, they would never know.
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That last part doesnt make sense. Your not natural based on what ppl know. Also often people seem to try to justify or take the heat off something by pointing something else out. Like "yeah i stole from the store...but so did Bobby." Just b like yeah im on synthetic hormones. If ur levels are within range or not that doesnt matter.
 
I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating. You are natural if you are working with what you are naturally producing ie endogenously. If you alter that with exogenous testosterone, you are introducing a product that was synthetically made. While you may be bringing levels into "normal" levels, you aren't doing it naturally.

I'm on TRT and I would never consider myself natural.
 
Shasow said:
A banana is natural but is a poptart?
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If ur,carb loading on bananas thats natural. If ur carb loading on pop tarts....thats not natural. But hey if u wanna say your carb loading naturally on pop tarts thats your deal
 
Chuck Diesel said:
That last part doesnt make sense. Your not natural based on what ppl know. Also often people seem to try to justify or take the heat off something by pointing something else out. Like "yeah i stole from the store...but so did Bobby." Just b like yeah im on synthetic hormones. If ur levels are within range or not that doesnt matter.
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Sure it makes since. First off I'm staying my opinion that if someone on TRT keeps their test levels in the normal range that it should be considered natural. Second, to expand on the last part of my previous statement, if someone on TRT is training to be in a natural bodybuilding show and that person was tested throughout their training, the test results would show natural levels all the time as long as they were maintaining a true TRT protocol and not blasting. So point being, no one would know that person was on TRT unless he disclosed it.
 
sammpedd88 said:
Sure it makes since. First off I'm staying my opinion that if someone on TRT keeps their test levels in the normal range that it should be considered natural. Second, to expand on the last part of my previous statement, if someone on TRT is training to be in a natural bodybuilding show and that person was tested throughout their training, the test results would show natural levels all the time as long as they were maintaining a true TRT protocol and not blasting. So point being, no one would know that person was on TRT unless he disclosed it.
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It would if their test to epitest ratio was checked. They dont test in drug tested shows for total test. They test for a ratio of test to epitest which will be off if you are on synthetic testosterone. 4:1 would b upper end of "legal.".....so what you are saying doesnt make sense
 
Chuck Diesel said:
It would if their test to epitest ratio was checked. They dont test in drug tested shows for total test. They test for a ratio of test to epitest which will be off if you are on synthetic testosterone. 4:1 would b upper end of "legal.".....so what you are saying doesnt make sense
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How would the ratio be off if you're on TRT because you need to be and you are maintaining natural levels?
 
sammpedd88 said:
How would the ratio be off if you're on TRT because you need to be and you are maintaining natural levels?
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Epitest wont increase when synthetic test is injested. So its a ratio. Its not a "level." Its like for every 4mg of test you make. You make 1mg of epitest kinda. So if you make 100mg your epitest would be like 25mg. This is just using mg not ng/dl. If you shoot say 100mg now you are at 200mg to 25mg or 8:1 which means....ur not natural. Its also possible to low dose and stay under the ratio if you have low test to epitest numbers but they woudnt be like 3:1 naturally providing u with wiggle room.
 
The flippant remarks and ludicrous examples do demonstrate just how arbitrary our human (all too human) boundaries can be. I see no empirical evidence as to why one boundary should be ultimately preferred over another; preference appears to be based upon utility, not anything absolute.
 
sammpedd88 said:
How would the ratio be off if you're on TRT because you need to be and you are maintaining natural levels?
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No one on TRT would pass a WADA test to epitest (test).Sorry. it doesnt work the way you guys invision hormone levels. You're thinking "within a range." They dnt care what ur total or free test range is.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
It would if their test to epitest ratio was checked. They dont test in drug tested shows for total test. They test for a ratio of test to epitest which will be off if you are on synthetic testosterone. 4:1 would b upper end of "legal.".....so what you are saying doesnt make sense
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After reading your previous posts I see you're somewhat anti TRT since you made the statement that every time somebody juices they call it HRT. I'm on TRT because medically I have to be. I tried every "natural" way to get my test back to normal levels and couldn't do it. I ended up on TRT. I for one do not blast and cruise and some do that are on TRT. They take advantage of the fact they have a prescription for test. When I say take advantage of I don't mean that in a negative way. They are just using the fact that they have a prescription to run a cycle. I am not against anyone doing it, I just choose not too. It took too long to get my protocol dialed in and I don't want to mess that up. After reading your previous posts I see you're somewhat anti TRT since you made the statement that every time somebody juices they call it HRT. I'm on TRT because medically I have to be. I tried every "natural" way to get my test back to normal levels and couldn't do it. I ended up on TRT. I for one do not blast and cruise and some do that are on TRT. They take advantage of the fact they have a prescription for test. When I say take advantage of I don't mean that in a negative way. They are just using the fact that they have a prescription to run a cycle. I am not against anyone doing it, I just choose not too. It took too long to get my protocol dialed in and I don't want to mess that up.

As far as the epi testosterone test, that was new to me and you taught me something. Even though your test levels show normal the test will show you have injected test.
 
sammpedd88 said:
After reading your previous posts I see you're somewhat anti TRT since you made the statement that every time somebody juices they call it HRT. I'm on TRT because medically I have to be. I tried every "natural" way to get my test back to normal levels and couldn't do it. I ended up on TRT. I for one do not blast and cruise and some do that are on TRT. They take advantage of the fact they have a prescription for test. When I say take advantage of I don't mean that in a negative way. They are just using the fact that they have a prescription to run a cycle. I am not against anyone doing it, I just choose not too. It took too long to get my protocol dialed in and I don't want to mess that up. After reading your previous posts I see you're somewhat anti TRT since you made the statement that every time somebody juices they call it HRT. I'm on TRT because medically I have to be. I tried every "natural" way to get my test back to normal levels and couldn't do it. I ended up on TRT. I for one do not blast and cruise and some do that are on TRT. They take advantage of the fact they have a prescription for test. When I say take advantage of I don't mean that in a negative way. They are just using the fact that they have a prescription to run a cycle. I am not against anyone doing it, I just choose not too. It took too long to get my protocol dialed in and I don't want to mess that up.
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Im not anti- anything. I make test boosters ppl use for pct. So the more ppl on test the more product I sell. I said when im 60 i will get on "TRT" but i wont be walking around calling myself natural. Also you shoudnt look at being on TRT for medical reasons as something bad. Its not natural but that doesnt mean its bad. Ppl are on blood pressure medicine and thats not bad

Its one think 2 where the doctor is like ur synptoms are bc ur test levels are at 50 and thats why ur depressed so i will put you on TRT versus the average person like "i dnt know what my levels are but imma see a doctor to get on test to maximize my circulating test for obvious reasons....gainz."
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Im not anti- anything. I make test boosters ppl use for pct. So the more ppl on test the more product I sell. I said when im 60 i will get on "TRT" but i wont be walking around calling myself natural. Also you shoudnt look at being on TRT for medical reasons as something bad. Its not natural but that doesnt mean its bad. Ppl are on blood pressure medicine and thats not bad

Its one think 2 where the doctor is like ur synptoms are bc ur test levels are at 50 and thats why ur depressed so i will put you on TRT versus the average person like "i dnt know what my levels are but imma see a doctor to get on test to maximize my circulating test for obvious reasons....gainz."
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I hate Drs! Most of them are about writing a script and sending you on your way. They don't diagnose and treat the cause anymore. I go to an integrative medicine dr and they look at the cause of problems and treat it to solve other issues.
 
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