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Topic of the Week: Is going on HRT still natural to you?

Chuck Diesel said:
Yeah HRT will. If i get on HRT i know im going to become a,beast bc I dont need it. I mean lile how low should your levels be to be on HRT? When I lived in Florida your test levels could be at 700 and they still would put you on if you were paying
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Then it's not HRT if doctors are doing that. Again, that has nothing to do with my point or the guy shown above at 78.
 
Admin said:
We didn't beat the Russians. They were the first in space which gave us the motivation to go the moon. Without the Russians, we wouldn't have gone.
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American propaganda says we beat the Russians to the moon. That's what matters in the public eye. I was being facetious.
 
Admin said:
No, HRT won't.

If you are going to use the criteria that anything that helps performance should be banned, then be prepared to ban everything.
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I didnt say anything needs to b banned. I said there are rules and if you dont comply you get in trouble.

I got to 230lbs at 5'7" drug free w less than 10% bodyfat. If i was a,running back then went on "HRT" you saying I woudnt notice any increase in fav muscle to fat ratio? Recovery?
 
Chuck Diesel said:
I didnt say anything needs to b banned. I said there are rules and if you dont comply you get in trouble.

I got to 230lbs at 5'7" drug free w less than 10% bodyfat. If i was a,running back then went on "HRT" you saying I woudnt notice any increase in fav muscle to fat ratio? Recovery?
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If you were on HRT and measured the same level as your natural level, how would that help you in any major way?
 
The funniest sht is my AC went out today. The AC guy started talking about nutrition bc he asked what i do. He said he trains MMA and took test shots once for 90 days. He said in one month his bench went from 245 1x to 245 8x....... thats normal tho right. His words exactly "i was a fcking beast"
 
Admin said:
If you were on HRT and measured the same level as your natural level, how would that help you in any major way?
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if you were at 230lbs w/less than 10% bf w/test level of 275, don't you think that would be improved upon if suddenly test level was 700 or over?
 
There is no such thing as "ur normal levels" then all of a sudden your on test shots and still at your "normal levels"
 
lol...there is a reason testosterone is banned by almost all sanctioning bodies as being a ped-performance enhancing drug!!!
 
Admin said:
If you were on HRT and measured the same level as your natural level, how would that help you in any major way?
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On TRT, it is pretty common to have fairly high free test that likely may not occur with men that aren't on exogenous test and that would have a big factor. Plus, how many men know what their natural levels are to begin with? Generally you only find out when you are seeing symptoms and go get tested, which you are probably going to see low(er) results from. So you treat that to get rid of symptoms and let's say it takes 700 levels to do that, but your natural levels were lower than that and your free test wasn't as high. You are still within range, but you have tweaked those numbers and it is an advantage.

Now we aren't talking about the muscle building results you get moving outside of the physiological range, but it certainly helps with recovery, mass retention, and smaller muscle building gains.
 
thebigt said:
if you were at 230lbs w/less than 10% bf w/test level of 275, don't you think that would be improved upon if suddenly test level was 700 or over?
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But thats not the case. Chuck said if he went on HRT...which would then suppress his natural levels and the injected test would bring him back to normal range. In other words, nothing really changes and it would be pointless for him.

The scenario above takes a guy at 78 and brings him to a normal range. Its a medical condition.

You're talking apples to watermelons.
 
kisaj said:
On TRT, it is pretty common to have fairly high free test that likely may not occur with men that aren't on exogenous test and that would have a big factor. Plus, how many men know what their natural levels are to begin with? Generally you only find out when you are seeing symptoms and go get tested, which you are probably going to see low(er) results from. So you treat that to get rid of symptoms and let's say it takes 700 levels to do that, but your natural levels were lower than that and your free test wasn't as high. You are still within range, but you have tweaked those numbers and it is an advantage.
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Which was the point. Its pointless for a man that has normal test to go on HRT unless he's looking to go above or tweak their number and thats not the point. We're talking about a guy with a level of 78 trying to be normal. According to some here, thats cheating which I find funny.

Now we aren't talking about the muscle building results you get moving outside of the physiological range, but it certainly helps with recovery, mass retention, and smaller muscle building gains.
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Yes but nothing like a large dose. You are being brought back to what you normally should have. These people are talking as if you went on HRT and you are going to blow up and outperform everyone as if you were on 2g/week.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
There is no such thing as "ur normal levels" then all of a sudden your on test shots and still at your "normal levels"
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Thats because people with normal levels don't go on HRT because it would be pointless. You are the one that brought that scenario up, not me.
 
thebigt said:
lol...there is a reason testosterone is banned by almost all sanctioning bodies as being a ped-performance enhancing drug!!!
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Yeah, for abuse.

Lets ban caffeine as well.

:rolleyes:
 
Chuck Diesel said:
The funniest sht is my AC went out today. The AC guy started talking about nutrition bc he asked what i do. He said he trains MMA and took test shots once for 90 days. He said in one month his bench went from 245 1x to 245 8x....... thats normal tho right. His words exactly "i was a fcking beast"
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You mean a guy that had low T took shots to become normal again and his strength went up? And your problem with that is?

Or a guy with normal levels, juiced and his strength went up...which has nothing to do with the point here.
 
Admin said:
But thats not the case. Chuck said if he went on HRT...which would then suppress his natural levels and the injected test would bring him back to normal range. In other words, nothing really changes and it would be pointless for him.

The scenario above takes a guy at 78 and brings him to a normal range. Its a medical condition.

You're talking apples to watermelons.
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Well what we mean is if I am at say 400 and I take a very low dose of test to where it shuts down my LH to so low my test ends up at 440 from the synthetic test and the little my body produces.....that would be stupid and what would happen is the dose would be too low and so the HRT doctor or my buddy would double the dose to get me to like 800+

I dont think anyone is on test to shut down their test and just bring it back to where it was synthetically. Its still cheating but dumb.
 
Chuck, you proposed that scenario, not me. If you take enough to shut you down but get you back to what you previously, of course it's dumb and won't benefit you at all. I don't even know why that's being discussed.

I was talking about guy that was banned for taking a drug that helped his medical condition. If we are going to use that criteria then you better ban every anti-depressant or anti-anxiety drug that might give people a mental edge as well.
 
I dont rem proposing take test to suppress then raise back to pre suppressed levels but anyway almost anything that gives an edge is banned. Havent you heard of those archers getting banned for taking downers so they are not nervous. Invalid Link Removed
 
They guy that took that drug shoud have checked to see if it was ok in his organization. The people who play the sport dont make the rules. Its their job to perform the best they can within the rules or dont compete.
 
The question isn't whether he broke them, but if the rule makes sense.

You're the cop busting people going 56mph in a 55 zone. LOL
 
Weed is hella legal in Amsterdam....yohimbe isnt. Say the Netherlands soccor league lets you smoke weed but not take yohimbe....then u cant take yohimbe. Actually its cut and dry. Its not up for debate but atheltes want to debate if one substance is more harmful than another. You can say "thats a,stupid rule" all you,want. I say that abt a ton of stuff in my head....I dont break,the rule not expecting ramafacations.

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Admin said:
The question isn't whether he broke them, but if the rule makes sense.

You're the cop busting people going 56mph in a 55 zone. LOL
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Well both my bros are cops. They dont bust ppl for going less than 10mph over but with that said there isnt a buffer....you can get pulled over for 1 mph over. I got a ticket in Texas for 72 in a 70. Im saying in sports there are rules and some have no buffer. Ive competed in tons of sports and from a military background its drilled in me, rules are rules.
 
Guess who decides the rules? The governing body. Not the athletes
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Well both my bros are cops. They dont bust ppl for going less than 10mph over but with that said there isnt a buffer....you can get pulled over for 1 mph over. I got a ticket in Texas for 72 in a 70. Im saying in sports there are rules and some have no buffer. Ive competed in tons of sports and from a military background its drilled in me, rules are rules.
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You can but its actually built into the law that cops can show discretion and approach the situation on an individual basis. In other words...flexibility which it seems is lacking in anti-doping laws.

It's a sad state where the actual law for civil society is more flexible than drug laws.
 
There are such things as therapeutic exemptions. If atheltes dont apply for them and get exemptions how can you be mad at the governing body?
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Guess who decides if the rules? The governing body. Not the athletes
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And the governing body's bases their decision on a scientific basis from who? People who are not in the governing body.
 
Admin said:
And the governing body's bases their decision on a scientific basis from who? People who are not in the governing body.
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Not the atheltes saying "i think test should be ok." Im saying the people competing can comply or find an unsactioned league
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Not the atheltes saying "i think test should be ok." Im saying the people competing can comply or find an unsactioned league
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So? The governing body should be flexible based on actual evidence.

They were in the Casey Martin case where he couldn't walk 18 holes and requested a cart. He was denied. He fought it, and won. Under your criteria he wouldn't be allowed to play because it's against the rules but he fought and a medical exemption was granted. They SHOULD be flexible.
 
Admin said:
So? The governing body should be flexible based on actual evidence.

They were in the Casey Martin case where he couldn't walk 18 holes and requested a cart. He was denied. He fought it, and won. Under your criteria he wouldn't be allowed to play because it's against the rules but he fought and a medical exemption was granted. They SHOULD be flexible.
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Most organizations are flexible, they don't have to be flexible to what you think is flexible. WADA says right their on there page they give medical exemptions.

This thread is about HRT, no I don't think HRT is natural, and if anyone does then they are just playing mind tricks on themselves. If I lose an arm, then get a bionic arm, is my pitching in the major leagues "natural" because hey I have two arms like every one else?? No it isn't. Natural and synthetic doesn't always also mean one is better either.

Do you think athletes should be able to compete against natural athletes in say the olympics on HRT as long as their levels are not above the higher end of ref range for testosterone?
 
Let me give you an example, I am extremely sensitive to ephedrine. I can take 12mg a day for a week and seriously lose a 1lb a week. It also gives me huge strength and endurance preworkout stacked with the other products I am on. Now If I was lobbying to be able to take 12mg of ephedrine a day in a drug tested organization because I have chronic fatigue syndrome that would make no sense to me. It will however make sense to anyone who is looking for an unfair advantage.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Most organizations are flexible, they don't have to be flexible to what you think is flexible. WADA says right their on there page they give medical exemptions.

This thread is about HRT, no I don't think HRT is natural, and if anyone does then they are just playing mind tricks on themselves. If I lose an arm, then get a bionic arm, is my pitching in the major leagues "natural" because hey I have two arms like every one else?? No it isn't. Natural and synthetic doesn't always also mean one is better either.
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And I think TRT for a person such as the golfer above should be fine if constantly monitored. WADA is not flexible. They were the basis for Vijah Singh getting suspended for deer antler velvet because the marketing material claimed IGF-1. It's a bunk supplement. That's how completely ridiculous they are.

So now we're going from restoring extremely low test to bionic arms?!? Lol
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Let me give you an example, I am extremely sensitive to ephedrine. I can take 12mg a day for a week and seriously lose a 1lb a week. It also gives me huge strength and endurance preworkout stacked with the other products I am on. Now If I was lobbying to be able to take 12mg of ephedrine a day in a drug tested organization because I have chronic fatigue syndrome that would make no sense to me. It will however make sense to anyone who is looking for an unfair advantage.
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The difference is ephedrine is not the medical drug prescribed for chronic fatigue syndrome. You are choosing to self medicate. Completely different.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Most organizations are flexible, they don't have to be flexible to what you think is flexible. WADA says right their on there page they give medical exemptions.

This thread is about HRT, no I don't think HRT is natural, and if anyone does then they are just playing mind tricks on themselves. If I lose an arm, then get a bionic arm, is my pitching in the major leagues "natural" because hey I have two arms like every one else?? No it isn't. Natural and synthetic doesn't always also mean one is better either.

Do you think athletes should be able to compete against natural athletes in say the olympics on HRT as long as their levels are not above the higher end of ref range for testosterone?
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Also, you already have athletes with surgically reconstructed shoulders, hips, knees, etc that are stronger than their natural joints/tendons/ligaments. So is that wrong?
 
Admin said:
Also, you already have athletes with surgically reconstructed shoulders, hips, knees, etc that are stronger than their natural joints/tendons/ligaments. So is that wrong?
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Well its not an issue of right or wrong, its an issue of is there bionic arm, leg, eye whatever is approved in the organization they wish to compete in. So there is an issue of is this "wrong" in our society, then our legal system, then in the sporting organization. I think you want the sporting organization rules to be on par with society rules. I don't think its wrong to walk around with a artificial arm. I think its wrong if you compete with a bionic arm and the organization says you can't in their organization.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Well its not an issue of right or wrong, its an issue of is there bionic arm, leg, eye whatever is approved in the organization they wish to compete in. So there is an issue of is this "wrong" in our society, then our legal system, then in the sporting organization. I think you want the sporting organization rules to be on par with society rules. I don't thing its wrong to walk around with a artificial arm. I think its wrong if you compete with a bionic arm and the organization says you can't in their organization.
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And I'm saying that we should be reevaluating the organizations rules if they constantly show hypocritical positions. You can choose to accept anything and everything they say...but I can choose to show how completely ridiculous they are.

Another example. A golfer who suffers from anxiety is prescribed an anti-anxiety drug. The result is more focus, less anxious and performs better under pressure because of a drug. Should it be allowed?
 
Admin said:
And I'm saying that we should be reevaluating the organizations rules if they constantly show hypocritical positions. You can choose to accept anything and everything they say...but I can choose to show how completely ridiculous they are.

Another example. A golfer who suffers from anxiety is prescribed an anti-anxiety drug. The result is more focus, less anxious and performs better under pressure because of a drug. Should it be allowed?
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Nope, he should not golf or get on an approved drug. If he wanted to he could take any dose he wanted to and be much more relaxed. Sports cause anxiety anyway, so why should he get to relax? If his anxiety is so bad then he needs to pick a different sport. Thats like approving an anxiety med for a poker player. You are gonna have anxiety, if yours is so bad you need drugs, then it also should be so bad you cant compete. Everyone cant compete in every sport.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Nope, he should not golf or get on an approved drug. If he wanted to he could take any dose he wanted to and be much more relaxed. Sports cause anxiety anyway, so why should he get to relax? If his anxiety is so bad then he needs to pick a different sport. Thats like approving an anxiety med for a poker player. You are gonna have anxiety, if yours is so bad you need drugs, then it also should be so bad you cant compete. Everyone cant compete in every sport.
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Yet it's legal :)
 
Admin said:
Another example. A golfer who suffers from anxiety is prescribed an anti-anxiety drug. The result is more focus, less anxious and performs better under pressure because of a drug. Should it be allowed?
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Do you think golfers, archers, race car drivers, etc should be able to compete on anti-anxiety drugs?
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Do you think golfers, archers, race car drivers, etc should be able to compete on anti-anxiety drugs?
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Yes. Unlike steroids, there is a ceiling with those. It basically makes you more "normal" if there is a such a thing. You can't take more and it make you fearless. It doesn't eliminate fear or anxiety. It basically helps anxiety and fear from everyday situations be less debilitating. But there is your slippery slope...
 
Admin said:
Yes. Unlike steroids, there is a ceiling with those. It basically makes you more "normal" if there is a such a thing. You can't take more and it make you fearless. It doesn't eliminate fear or anxiety. It basically helps anxiety and fear from everyday situations be less debilitating. But there is your slippery slope...
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Ok well im sure i can fake the need for anti-axiety meds and you dont have to feel,fearless. Golf or archery are all about being relaxed. The more relaxed you are the more accurate you are.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
Ok well im sure i can fake the need for anti-axiety meds and you dont have to feel,fearless. Golf or archery are all about being relaxed. The more relaxed you are the more accurate you are.
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You can't really. It's mainly determined through blood tests and doctor exams.

They basically fix chemical imbalances.
 
This can go on for weeks. My take is HRT isnt natural. It doesnt make sense to be called natural. Ref range of test is broad and not the same as natural as long as you are say not ovet 900. Organization have rules. People who wish to comepte in them should comply or find another organization. I dont think someone on HRT should be able to compete in a drug free for life category of a NPC show. They can compete w the non-tested dudes that say they got where they are on hard work and protein.
 
Chuck Diesel said:
This can go on for weeks. My take is HRT isnt natural. It doesnt make sense to be called natural. Ref range of test is broad and not the same as natural as long as you are say not ovet 900. Organization have rules. People who wish to comepte in them should comply or find another organization. I dont think someone on HRT should be able to compete in a drug free for life category of a NPC show. They can compete w the non-tested dudes that say they got where they are on hard work and protein.
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That's fine but the system itself should be questioned and not blindly accepted. Soon enough your test boosters will be considered as good as steroids to some of these people.
 
Admin said:
You can't really. It's mainly determined through blood tests and doctor exams.

They basically fix chemical imbalances.
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All imbalances dont produce the same effects. You can be off balance in several neurotransmitters. Criminals fake crazy all the time
 
Chuck Diesel said:
All imbalances dont produce the same effects. You can be off balance in several neurotransmitters. Criminals fake crazy all the time
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And proven to be faking it.

It's fairly easy to spot.
 
Admin said:
That's fine but the system itself should be questioned and not blindly accepted. Soon enough your test boosters will be considered as good as steroids to some of these people.
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Yeah then they will say joe blow cant use it in there organization. Amazon wont sell my preworkout Jp8x hardcore bc they said it produces drug like effects. Its annoying and dumb to me but i have to just suck it up bc they can make whatever rules they want. My procycle cant be used by INBA bodybuiders now
 
I just know atheltes need to apply for therapeutic use waivers
 
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