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Tomatidine (potent natural anabolic?)

ma70 said:
I'm in a 750 kcal deficit and my bar speed is going up. I don't feel a lack of libido and my strength is going up (determined mostly by the bar speed/ease of lifting). If it's lowering my test, all of the other stuff it's doing is making up for it. In the end, I mostly care about the results. I'm down 3-4 lbs (haven't weighed in since last week, I do weekly weigh ins at the same time every week on Monday) and feel just as strong if not stronger than the start of the log.

I am 27 if that means anything.
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Couple of excerpts from examine.com:
...A rat model of benign prostatic hyperplasia using 5mg/kg Ursolic acid oral administration alongside testosterone injections noted suppression of prostatic growth to a similar degree as the active control (10mg/kg Finasteride) and a suppression of both testosterone and DHT rivalling Finasteride in magnitude;

....Ursolic acid, when fed to rats at 5mg/kg bodyweight, was able to cause infertility by inhibiting spermatogenesis.[63] Specifically, it causes breaking of bridges in between cells that are soon to be sperm, and the damaged cells then collect to form symplasts in the Seminiferous Tubules that are associated with male infertility. It does not appear to cause long-term damage to the testes...At least one other in vitro study noted that ursolic acid was able to reduce sperm motility.
 
Now I know we're not rats...however I now recall this is what put me off ursolic acid. I think ill wait tomatidine products to come down a bit before giving it a go
 
Nac said:
Bro that relative increase is huge, 12kg per db? Lol Id be happy with that running AAS.
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Using the shortest time period of 4 months, that is adding 6.6lbs to the bar, every month. That's roughly (and if it was 5 or 6 months, the weight drops) like adding a 2.5lb plate to each side, every month. That sounds like natural progression for most beginner/intermediates to me?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Using the shortest time period of 4 months, that is adding 6.6lbs to the bar, every month. That's roughly (and if it was 5 or 6 months, the weight drops) like adding a 2.5lb plate to each side, every month. That sounds like natural progression for most beginner/intermediates to me?
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He's talking dumbells though. 12kg per dumbell; thats phenomenal.
 
Nac said:
He's talking dumbells though. 12kg per dumbell; thats phenomenal.
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Ahhhhhh.... ok, yeah, I'm a dumbazz (and only have up to 52's in my gym - don't do much DB work). So I guess the Barbell weights would really be phenomenal then - wonder what those increases are?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Ahhhhhh.... ok, yeah, I'm a dumbazz (and only have up to 52's in my gym - don't do much DB work). So I guess the Barbell weights would really be phenomenal then - wonder what those increases are?
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I'm kinda surprised to hear you don't do much DB work....
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Ahhhhhh.... ok, yeah, I'm a dumbazz (and only have up to 52's in my gym - don't do much DB work). So I guess the Barbell weights would really be phenomenal then - wonder what those increases are?
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I remember when I used to DB bench regularly. Half the battle is getting those fukers up into place without a spotter.

12kg per DB. His push strength has effectively increased by 24kg. Not to mention the normal limitations imposed by stabilisers when lifting DBs. Im well impressed.

But that price, and the unreliability of natty supps across populations...
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I have to buy all my own equipment - barbells and Olympic plates were the priority. Plan on some Titan Fitness adjustables soon.
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over the years I have bought literally a ton of iron at yard sales, lol....it might not look so pretty but does the job.

go to the wealthier neighborhoods, they have good stuff they just want to get rid of-much of it is barely used!!!
 
Another examine.com excerpt:

3.2. Endothelium

One study noted that, in vitro, in human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs) as well as cells taken from humans, ursolic acid was able to prevent cell differentiation and induce cell death in both cell cultures potently at 12.5uM, and in isolated cells at 6.25uM. Lower doses did not have any influence on cell death, and 3.125uM has a non-significant increase in cell differentation relative to controls in isolated cells.[23]

Is anyone else concerned with cell death? lol
 
Synapsin said:
You can buy OLY dumbbell bars and just use 10s or 25s for them :) Hex collar is nice on them too.
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I actually bought one of those for Rows - too long and the 25's too big. Would have to load with all 10's and I don't have enough. It's just awkward for me. The Titans are a 200lb set (100lb ea.) for $209 or so - and they have 15% Off sales, so waiting on one of those. I also think I can slide one more 1" plate on each side - so maybe get 105/110/120 out of them?
 
Nac said:
I remember when I used to DB bench regularly. Half the battle is getting those fukers up into place without a spotter.

12kg per DB. His push strength has effectively increased by 24kg. Not to mention the normal limitations imposed by stabilisers when lifting DBs. Im well impressed.

But that price, and the unreliability of natty supps across populations...
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And he's 2 reps shy at 52kg, so equating for reps, he's probably at 48-50kg if we want to be more accurate. I also have a question about when he started, he said a few pages back that his Testosterone was 7nmol/l (202ng/dl) and what's going on with that? If he had some external force (apnea, stress, spiked supp) drop him to hypo, and he then corrected it back to mid-normal... (and this is why I mentioned the "100 other things that could be the cause - but get attributed to the supplement")

Danes can you post a detailed log of what was going on with your hormones, causes, how you fixed (if you did), dates, at what level did you start this stuff, what your levels are now, etc... ?
 
GreenMachineX said:
Another examine.com excerpt:

3.2. Endothelium

One study noted that, in vitro, in human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs) as well as cells taken from humans, ursolic acid was able to prevent cell differentiation and induce cell death in both cell cultures potently at 12.5uM, and in isolated cells at 6.25uM. Lower doses did not have any influence on cell death, and 3.125uM has a non-significant increase in cell differentation relative to controls in isolated cells.[23]

Is anyone else concerned with cell death? lol
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Also, what are the implications of this? Like cardiac arrest or congestive heart failure if it's run too long?
 
GreenMachineX said:
Also, what are the implications of this? Like cardiac arrest or congestive heart failure if it's run too long?
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Way out of my wheelhouse, but I see "lower doses did not have any influence on cell death". Since this stuff has horrible bio-availability, how much is "reaching the cells" even if the Shilajit complexing works? And of course - Test Tube may not equal "Swallowed".
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Way out of my wheelhouse, but I see "lower doses did not have any influence on cell death". Since this stuff has horrible bio-availability, how much is "reaching the cells" even if the Shilajit complexing works? And of course - Test Tube may not equal "Swallowed".
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Any idea what's considered a "low" or "high" dosage?
I now have 3 bottles of HH6 I'm a little apprehensive about using now.
 
Nac said:
I remember when I used to DB bench regularly. Half the battle is getting those fukers up into place without a spotter.

12kg per DB. His push strength has effectively increased by 24kg. Not to mention the normal limitations imposed by stabilisers when lifting DBs. Im well impressed.

But that price, and the unreliability of natty supps across populations...
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And dont forget I am one who many times force my self to be stronger but my CNS does not like it. All bloodwork results are normal besides T levels. So I am VERY impressed of the strength increase and actually the size I have added to my frame.

Now, I will see how my strength is without those supplements. If My strength begin to decrease then its even more clear sign that those products really worked.
I still workout and eat same so it will be fun to see.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
And he's 2 reps shy at 52kg, so equating for reps, he's probably at 48-50kg if we want to be more accurate. I also have a question about when he started, he said a few pages back that his Testosterone was 7nmol/l (202ng/dl) and what's going on with that? If he had some external force (apnea, stress, spiked supp) drop him to hypo, and he then corrected it back to mid-normal... (and this is why I mentioned the "100 other things that could be the cause - but get attributed to the supplement")

Danes can you post a detailed log of what was going on with your hormones, causes, how you fixed (if you did), dates, at what level did you start this stuff, what your levels are now, etc... ?
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I will take a new bloodwork next week and write here the results.
I guess my T levels are still at 6.9/7.(like in january and february).
They were at 8.9 in 2008 .

I also know my SHBG is 15 which is good. Its not holding much testosterone
 
thebigt said:
over the years I have bought literally a ton of iron at yard sales, lol....it might not look so pretty but does the job.

go to the wealthier neighborhoods, they have good stuff they just want to get rid of-much of it is barely used!!!
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Yard sales are the holy grail for weights + used equip !
 
GreenMachineX said:
Any idea what's considered a "low" or "high" dosage?
I now have 3 bottles of HH6 I'm a little apprehensive about using now.
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The low, 3.125uM concentration is, generally, at the limits of what can be attained with the intravenous use of ursolic acid nanosuspensions. I can't post links, but check PMC3540956, "A phase I pharmacokinetic study of ursolic acid nanoliposomes in healthy volunteers and patients with advanced solid tumors." Only the high-dose group attained such plasma concentrations, and that only transiently. (Aside: The "high dose" corresponds to around 200mg for a 200lb, 6' man with a BSA of 2.15m^2. That's a lot to take intravenously, as UA is not particularly soluble, even in nanoparticle form.)

Via oral administration, which is orders of magnitude less effective in humans, one won't approach 3uM concentrations. One probably won't even come close. Concentrations any higher than 1uM are extremely unlikely, even if you take a larger-than-recommended dose of cyclodextrin-complexed material. See the FASEB Journal report: "A single ascending dose, initial clinical pharmacokinetic and safety study of ursolic acid in healthy adult volunteers (1044.6)"

So, in short, I don't think that you have anything to worry about. The concentrations your paper mentions are, emphatically, non-physiological where oral administration is concerned.
 
JakeAntaeus said:
The low, 3.125uM concentration is, generally, at the limits of what can be attained with the intravenous use of ursolic acid nanosuspensions. I can't post links, but check PMC3540956, "A phase I pharmacokinetic study of ursolic acid nanoliposomes in healthy volunteers and patients with advanced solid tumors." Only the high-dose group attained such plasma concentrations, and that only transiently. (Aside: The "high dose" corresponds to around 200mg for a 200lb, 6' man with a BSA of 2.15m^2. That's a lot to take intravenously, as UA is not particularly soluble, even in nanoparticle form.)

Via oral administration, which is orders of magnitude less effective in humans, one won't approach 3uM concentrations. One probably won't even come close. Concentrations any higher than 1uM are extremely unlikely, even if you take a larger-than-recommended dose of cyclodextrin-complexed material. See the FASEB Journal report: "A single ascending dose, initial clinical pharmacokinetic and safety study of ursolic acid in healthy adult volunteers (1044.6)"

So, in short, I don't think that you have anything to worry about. The concentrations your paper mentions are, emphatically, non-physiological where oral administration is concerned.
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Right on. Greatly appreciated.
 
Cell death sounds terrible but really has to be taken in the proper context. When your cells don't go through proper programmed cell death, cancer/tumours are tyically the result
 
skrym said:
Cell death sounds terrible but really has to be taken in the proper context. When your cells don't go through proper programmed cell death, cancer/tumours are tyically the result
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Yep and I think that is what the study was trying to look out. As alot of the UA studies are looking at it's cancer fighting properties. I could be wrong but I do think that is what the cell death study was pointing out.
 
skrym said:
Cell death sounds terrible but really has to be taken in the proper context. When your cells don't go through proper programmed cell death, cancer/tumours are tyically the result
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I'm no scientist, but I have heard that as soon after you are born cells start dying?
 
rtmilburn said:
Yep and I think that is what the study was trying to look out. As alot of the UA studies are looking at it's cancer fighting properties. I could be wrong but I do think that is what the cell death study was pointing out.
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skrym said:
Cell death sounds terrible but really has to be taken in the proper context. When your cells don't go through proper programmed cell death, cancer/tumours are tyically the result
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thebigt said:
I'm no scientist, but I have heard that as soon after you are born cells start dying?
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I guess my concern was if heart cells start dying to early.
 
D0b said:
hey, so I bought titan - paid alot for it as in UK london, had pay import duties, only after purchase found a uk supplier.

Initial thoughts, very pricy but thats ok worth the price to see if any results. 60 caps small amount also considering 2 per day is month supply, not sure if one will notice anything in this time.

Anyway took my first capsule at lunch time before gym workout. Felt nothing yet.. will report back after a few days.. planning to take during lunch and evening meal.. this is suggested on the packaging..

Ps please can we talk about this product and not hijack thread related to other products from company, reason is so far not enough reviews on this product and I really want to know if anyone is getting any results before splashing more cash. Just saying..

Thanks
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Well you're the guinea pig ironically enough given the title of the thread! Not sure if anyone else is logging this solo
 
D0b said:
hey, so I bought titan - paid alot for it as in UK london, had pay import duties, only after purchase found a uk supplier.

Initial thoughts, very pricy but thats ok worth the price to see if any results. 60 caps small amount also considering 2 per day is month supply, not sure if one will notice anything in this time.

Anyway took my first capsule at lunch time before gym workout. Felt nothing yet.. will report back after a few days.. planning to take during lunch and evening meal.. this is suggested on the packaging..

Ps please can we talk about this product and not hijack thread related to other products from company, reason is so far not enough reviews on this product and I really want to know if anyone is getting any results before splashing more cash. Just saying..

Thanks
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Start a new Logging Thread and then invite people to follow along.
 
D0b said:
Ok my bad, just wanted to hear about other people experiance, im not sure if my logic is correct, but combining this product with another may benefit but not provide accurate results as how does one know which product is working?
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Your logic is correct. I'm speculating due to the cost of the product people want to hedge their bets by stacking with HH6
 
D0b it will take some time before you feel anything from a natural supp...at least with most natural supps that is (caffeine is an exception amongst a few).
 
Ok, so this thread kind of died on the vine, anyway what happened to the discussed trial batch in small qty ?
 
macwad said:
How much? How can I buy some?
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I think you had to PM Jake from Antaeus a while back during the discussions on this thread. The batch was small and experimental. There is 150 mg of tomatidine per capsule....3 times the amount that is in the original Titan capsule (which is 50 mg).
 
My experiment will be simple.
All I will do is replace my current 2 caps of standard Titan with 2 caps of Titan+ a day. I will continue to stack with 4 caps of HH6 (2 caps twice a day) with the Titan to do an apples to apples comparison with what I had been doing.

I'm very excited about this. Will start this weekend.
 
By the way, it was not cheap....and I DO believe that Antaeus is doing those of us who will be testing it a HUGE favor by selling it basically AT COST for this experimental batch.

Funny....I am on record saying I discovered Antaeus last September and was HIGHLY skeptical of them and their products.
Boy its funny how things change.

Got 3 bottles...that means 3 months. I will do this for 3 months and see what happens.

Huge thanks again to Jake for even letting me do this. And I am greatly interested in the others who will be participating in this trial run.
 
Experimenter said:
By the way, it was not cheap....and I DO believe that Antaeus is doing those of us who will be testing it a HUGE favor by selling it basically AT COST for this experimental batch.

Funny....I am on record saying I discovered Antaeus last September and was HIGHLY skeptical of them and their products.
Boy its funny how things change.

Got 3 bottles...that means 3 months. I will do this for 3 months and see what happens.

Huge thanks again to Jake for even letting me do this. And I am greatly interested in the others who will be participating in this trial run.
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Nice, what is the shilajit content now, and will you be keeping log on seperate thread or this one?
 
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