The Official OL UK Ghar1ne Q&A
- Thread starter Olympus UK
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yates84
Well-known member
You can stack the two, no problem with that
digitalpimp
Member
I was wondering about this since I take Mucuna Pruriens before bed
yates84
Well-known member
It might make it hard to wake up the next morning, just ease into dosing of both compounds at night
Hastur
Well-known member
I wish I could give you a scientific explanation that would package it all together neatly, but to be honest, this isn't a common side effect by any means. Anecdotally, I can't say that I've come across anyone else claiming true insomnia, which is the inabiltiy to sleep at all, due to MK-677. There are too many confounding factors and variables involved, we had a similar situation regarding GW usage in a previous thread, a user claimed it was the GW causing a specific issue. As it turns out, it wasn't, but rather another product and a series of other factors that hadn't been initially included in his post. You have to realize, there is no cut and dry answer to such complexities of the human body at times. It could have something to do with what else you take, or what your diet looks like, or it could be unrelated to MK-677 entirely.
I don't want to leave you hanging with such a question though, because I know personally I'd want an answer as well, so I shall do my best to provide you with one! I'll have to speak in hypotheticals here since there is no prior data concerning insomnia from MK-677, so bare with me. But each of us is unique, compounds effect us in different ways. It may be that with your particular genetics such a product is better dosed earlier in the day, which is something I would advocate trying before abandoning MK-677 supplementation entirely. Or if could be an adjustment period, we have a few reports of people noticing lower quality sleep before it kicked in and then the sleep quality was above average after a certain point and stayed that way. My personal recommendation, either reassess your dietary and supplementation surrounding MK-677 ingestion at night, or time it earlier in the day. It comes down to a bit of trial and error, and if you aren't willing to play around with the dosage, I understand. But if you are, please continue to post, include details, and we will do our best to help you out!
hardtoget
Member
Really appreciate the response Hastur. I also am on Dymethazine @ 40mg, Stenabol @ 20mg with Trisorbagen. Yesterday I only took 20mg Dymethazine and 10mg Stenabol with 1 capsule of Trisorbagen. Could be the prohormones inducing this however there are two theories behind MK677 that might make my sleep patterns suffer.
1) MK677 increases aldosterone, when aldosterone increases invariably then cortisol will increase
2) MK677 affects blood sugar as does any GH secretagogue, cortisol will be released due to this response.
Tomorrow I'm going to try MK677 (10mg) during the morning with Huperzine (200mcg). Let's see if this improves the situation. I believe genetics plays a part and I'm very aware my adrenal glands suck through years of abuse and genetic predisposition.
1) MK677 increases aldosterone, when aldosterone increases invariably then cortisol will increase
2) MK677 affects blood sugar as does any GH secretagogue, cortisol will be released due to this response.
Tomorrow I'm going to try MK677 (10mg) during the morning with Huperzine (200mcg). Let's see if this improves the situation. I believe genetics plays a part and I'm very aware my adrenal glands suck through years of abuse and genetic predisposition.
Hastur
Well-known member
Well there are some very important details, I'd put my money on one of the two PH/DS you are taking, they actually do have a history of affecting sleep in various individuals. You'll see poor sleep as a common side effect of many PH/DS, and it's all highly individual. Now, on to your two personal theories. First off, we have hard data regarding MK-677 and Cortisol, I have seen the study personally and others commenting on said study. It showed a minimal insignificant increase in Cortisol that lead to no side effects whatsoever in human test subjects. Now, blood sugar, you did not take enough MK-677 for it to have increased GH/IGF-1 to a degree where it could even possibly effect blood sugar. I believe you are giving cortisol far too much credit here, you guaranteed release more cortisol in response to stimulants such as caffeine than you do from MK-677. And I doubt the dosage or length of usage could be enough for it to affect Aldosterone, Blood Sugar, or Cortisol related to either of those two things. Remember, this has been tested at 30mg daily for a length of up to two-years straight with no blood sugar issues or cortisol issues. Huperzine A won't be beneficial if you believe MK-677 is to blame, it would only amplify side effects if it is indeed the cause. I wouldn't bank on it improving the situation if MK-677 is the issue. I'd feel confident saying the PH/DS are involved, but the night you didn't take MK-677 you took Melatonin, which confounds the data regarding if MK-677 was to blame or not. I can say though that you can stack MK-677 and Melatonin, to the best of my knowledge, without ill effect.
crowbar46
Active member
Studies show that MK does transiently raise cortisol and prolactin WITHIN NORMAL RANGES, and this effect is largely attenuated after one week of use. So, yes I also noticed a little trouble sleeping the first several nights I used Gharine (before I had added the huperzine, by the way). However, this subsided as soon as the MK really kicked in. Yes, you're going to feel hungry--MK is a Ghrelin mimetic.
As far as switching the dose to mornings, personally I'd give the night dose a little more time: it seems to me you want to augment the natural increase in night time GH release with the MK.
crowbar46
Active member
Studies show that MK does transiently raise cortisol and prolactin WITHIN NORMAL RANGES, and this effect is largely attenuated after one week of use. So, yes I also noticed a little trouble sleeping the first several nights I used Gharine (before I had added the huperzine, by the way). However, this subsided as soon as the MK really kicked in. Yes, you're going to feel hungry--MK is a Ghrelin mimetic.
As far as switching the dose to mornings, personally I'd give the night dose a little more time: it seems to me you want to augment the natural increase in night time GH release with the MK.
hardtoget
Member
Really appreciate the incite hear guys. I'm believing more on the prohormones affecting my sleep, another thing is the Trisorbagen will keep the half-life of the substance you take with it longer in your body. This would give rise to stimulation at night. I'm going to take melatonin with the MK, and stop the prohormones by 3:30-4:00 mid-day. Surpisingly trendione didn't give me these issues as much as the DMZ/Sten does with sleep, again trisorbagen might very well be the key here.
Hastur
Well-known member
Exactly as I stated regarding the cortisol increase. In fact, everything about this post I like, we're on the same page, crowbar. Top notch post.
Hastur
Well-known member
This sounds like an excellent plan, and I look forward to hearing your results soon! Hopefully it remedies the situation entirely for you!
crowbar46
Active member
Exactly as I stated regarding the cortisol increase. In fact, everything about this post I like, we're on the same page, crowbar. Top notch post.
Thanks much my friend. I do try to add what I can.
hardtoget
Member
So today it finally hit me and hit me very hard. I didn't realize it but I dropped my Lexapro dosage way too fast and its hitting me like a ton of bricks. This is one potent drug and never realized how dependent I was even on just 10mg. Went cold turkey today after having dropped it to 5mg past couple weeks and makes total sense why my sleep has been off and talk about surges of anxiety today and felt like absolute ****.
chedapalooza
Legend
I've ended anti depressants cold turkey before. It was a horrible decision and you should definitely follow your doctors rec when it comes to those kinds of things. I was on Prozac 30mg for three years and dropped it entirely cold turkey... It was a rough 6 months let me tell u. Still glad I came off tho I wish I had gone about differently. And I would never mix anti depressants with any sarms, ph/aas personally.
Hastur
Well-known member
Well you never mentioned you were mixing an anti-depressant, 2 designer steroids/prohormones, an compound for boosting the bioavailability of ALL compounds, with MK-677. Clearly the MK-677 is the least important player here. I'd advise caution with such a stack, and to take great care with dosing of all products. The interactions cannot be foreseen with that many confounding variables, but I personally would not mix an anti depressant with those compounds. The risk in my eyes is too high.
Otheridstaken
Active member
Hastur
Well-known member
The TUDCA is fantastic liver support, especially for PH/DS compounds, however it's not your liver that I would be concerned with. It's highly recommended that those on anti-depressants don't use AAS/DS/PH because of the psychological effects that they can cause, and the potential for negative side effects when used together. Though you've ran a cycle before with no issues, and that's great, no one can advocate using any of these products with an anti-depressant, you do so at your own risk. Personally, I would talk to a physician about going off Lexapro, and would definitely not mix it with 2 PH/DS, let alone a compound that affects the absorption of all other compounds. It could lead to dangerous side effects. That all being said, I do hope that you achieve your goals, and you are absolutely free to do what you wish to do, however I'm sure you understand that I cannot advocate such a combination.
muay thai
Member
the first day using ghar1ne for myself and gf
review
10mg in AM - made us both beyond lethargic and useless for the day.
Recovery between sets was up. Nice pumps
10mg in PM- was beyond lethargic by then, forcing all workouts and daily function.
We had best sleep ever. I haven't had sleep this good since puberty. I lifted lightly
an did cardio at 11pm and had great pumps and muscles were very full.
Today is first day on it (day 3) where I haven't taken it in AM. So far i have way more energy night and day difference
I am on an arsenal of other products so giving this product a standalone review is impossible. So far this is just as strong as the RC mk2866 I have used before. 20mg of ghar1ne gives me same feeling 25mg from popular RC.
hope this info helps, I will continue to post feedback when appropriate
review
10mg in AM - made us both beyond lethargic and useless for the day.
Recovery between sets was up. Nice pumps
10mg in PM- was beyond lethargic by then, forcing all workouts and daily function.
We had best sleep ever. I haven't had sleep this good since puberty. I lifted lightly
an did cardio at 11pm and had great pumps and muscles were very full.
Today is first day on it (day 3) where I haven't taken it in AM. So far i have way more energy night and day difference
I am on an arsenal of other products so giving this product a standalone review is impossible. So far this is just as strong as the RC mk2866 I have used before. 20mg of ghar1ne gives me same feeling 25mg from popular RC.
hope this info helps, I will continue to post feedback when appropriate
kboxer7
Well-known member
Appreciate the feedback. I've seen a lot of comparisons to RC versions and so far Ghar1ne has come out on top every time.
Keep us posted on how things progress.
chedapalooza
Legend
Any water retention?
TShoot
Member
It only gave me insomnia in the beginning (but I started at 25mg like the studies quoted - not 10mg like others) and I know it was the MK677. I know what affects my sleep and what doesn't. I switched to AM dosing and that fixed the insomnia. About 5 days later I went back to pre-bed dosing and it actually improved my sleep.
It seems, at least to me, that in the beginning it can really mess with your sleep but the insomnia stops 4-5 days later (or less for some others).
After starting out at 25mgs and then going to 30mgs pretty quickly (3 10mg caps), I definitely agree with Yates84 about starting with 10mgs - not 30mg. Lethargy hit me really hard at 30mgs (but not for awhile). Taking a couple days off and dropping back to 10mg fixed the lethargy but I don't get as strong a feeling of my fingers tingling and forearms pumped during the day. But at 30mgs, the lethargy was a show stopper for me. I have a fairly intense sales job and it was killing all of my motivation.
So, I will run it at 10mg for a while to see how it goes before ramping up again. Also, taking 200mcg Huperzine A twice a day and like the extra focus.
Great info on this log.
Hastur
Well-known member
Excellent anecdotal data, I really appreciate you posting this! This goes to show people that dosing at night only definitely causes less lethargy for users, and if dosing in the AM and experiencing lethargy they first thing they should do is change the timing of their dosage to see what impact it has. I'm glad to hear it's giving you such great sleep, please, keep us updated of your results! Your feedback is invaluable!
rascal14
Well-known member
Did dosing at night get rid of all of the lethargy or just make it better? How's water retention?
muay thai
Member
bro
I am on triumphalis, ostarine, rad 140, test enan HRT dose
adex every 3 days
It would really be a disservice for me to give review on the gharine water retention issue alone, considering the anabolic cocktail I am utilizing in addition to ghar1ne. Adex alone drys you out quite well. Some days I wake up wet, some days I wake up dry. Alot it has to do with carb spill - too many. Last time the batch I got from RC, I did have facial bloat.
Last time I was only taking ostarine with it, but it wasn't ghar1ne it was from a RC. I had water retention at 20mg and up. 10mg however, was a bad ass addition to any cycle. Or even for anyone not on a cycle - product is godsent. Host of benefits..
Bumped it to 20mg pre-bed. first time experimenting with ghar1ne at this dose/protocol
if any differences are noted, I will post tomorrow.
I am on triumphalis, ostarine, rad 140, test enan HRT dose
adex every 3 days
It would really be a disservice for me to give review on the gharine water retention issue alone, considering the anabolic cocktail I am utilizing in addition to ghar1ne. Adex alone drys you out quite well. Some days I wake up wet, some days I wake up dry. Alot it has to do with carb spill - too many. Last time the batch I got from RC, I did have facial bloat.
Last time I was only taking ostarine with it, but it wasn't ghar1ne it was from a RC. I had water retention at 20mg and up. 10mg however, was a bad ass addition to any cycle. Or even for anyone not on a cycle - product is godsent. Host of benefits..
Bumped it to 20mg pre-bed. first time experimenting with ghar1ne at this dose/protocol
if any differences are noted, I will post tomorrow.
rascal14
Well-known member
Oh yeah that makes sense now, I remember reading before you were on cycle. My bad man.
crowbar46
Active member
For anyone interested:
1) I'll be 54 y.o. next month, so at this point my skin has become thinner than when I was younger.
2) I've noticed since starting the Gharine that the skin on my face is fuller and more hydrated--more plump.
3) I'm hoping the Gharine will help tighten any loose skin in my abdominal area from dropping body fat.
4) vascularlty is definitely enhanced at this point--arms (especially forearms) shoulders, chest, legs.
5) yesterday evening (TUE., August 11th) was night 21, night 15 @ 20 mg. Sleep continues to be deep and restful, hands tingly.
6) I continue to add 200 mcg. huperzine with my Gharine pre-bed, and can tell a significant difference in effect when I leave it out.
1) I'll be 54 y.o. next month, so at this point my skin has become thinner than when I was younger.
2) I've noticed since starting the Gharine that the skin on my face is fuller and more hydrated--more plump.
3) I'm hoping the Gharine will help tighten any loose skin in my abdominal area from dropping body fat.
4) vascularlty is definitely enhanced at this point--arms (especially forearms) shoulders, chest, legs.
5) yesterday evening (TUE., August 11th) was night 21, night 15 @ 20 mg. Sleep continues to be deep and restful, hands tingly.
6) I continue to add 200 mcg. huperzine with my Gharine pre-bed, and can tell a significant difference in effect when I leave it out.
chedapalooza
Legend
Thank you again this is all excellent feedback!
Hastur
Well-known member
Those all sound like pros, are you experiencing any cons whatsoever, crowbar? Because if not, I think you've hit the sweet spot, and I would ride it out for as long as possible!
Hastur
Well-known member
I wouldn't use the two together, personally. If Citicoline is something that you feel you need to supplement, skip the addition of Huperzine A. The combination would not be good, you'd have far too much acetylcholine in the body. But citicoline does not elicit the intended effect that Huperzine A does, so know that it's not a replacement. To the best of my knowledge, Citicoline does not inhibit somatostatin, thus not providing the same effect we are looking for from Huperzine A. But again, I would not stack the two. If Citicoline is a staple for you, avoid Huperzine A. If you want to use Huperzine A, drop the Citicoline.
crowbar46
Active member
I can't say I'm experiencing any negative side effects aside from some mild water retention.
Hastur
Well-known member
Mild water retention really isn't too bad, though I know for some people that's a deal breaker. Have you tried much to mitigate to the water retention? I never found there to be a lot of satisfying OTC diuretics.
crowbar46
Active member
I think Hastur is right: you'll have to be careful. I did use Biotest Brain Candy, which contains not only CDP choline, but several other ingredients, and definitely felt like I was overdoing it. Now, the Brain Candy also contains caffeine, acetyl-l-carnitine, acetyl-l-tyrosine, DMAE, so it was overload considering I was using it pre-training, then another recovery product post training which contains L-tyrosine, phosphatidylcholine, DMAE!!
Stupid, I know. However, I think you can mix acetylcholine precursors with huperzine if you're careful not to overdo it like I did. Everyone is going to be different in regard to their sensitivity to increased acetylcholine levels.
Now I use just a plain Alpha-GPC supplement with 200 mg. caffeine 1.5 Hrs. pre-training, the neural recovery drink after, and 200 mcg. huperzine pre-bed with my Gharine. I see no problems so far.
0
crowbar46
Active member
I'm using celery seed extract, watching my sodium intake, and increasing potassium intake: it seems to be working pretty well.
Hastur
Well-known member
Glad that's all you've needed to get a handle on water retention. Sounds like you know what you're doing!
chedapalooza
Legend
Someone knowledgable should make a thread on noot interactions and what to avoid / stack etc ... I think it would be a great reference thread so people don't over do it. This is some great info above that shouldn't get lost in the shuffle
Hastur
Well-known member
True, I agree wholeheartedly. But that's a massive undertaking, there are so many Nootropics now, and so many interactions between them and other compounds... It would be one hell of a thread!
kboxer7
Well-known member
Agreed on all fronts.
Would certainly be useful, but it does get quite complicated with everything out there now.
hsk
Active member
Thank you for the reply. I came to the same conclusion that I would probably have to pick one or the other, but wanted to make sure.
Hastur
Well-known member
Of course, buddy! I'm always glad to help! I'd definitely make a decision one way or another, if Citicoline works for you, skip the Huperzine, Ghar1ne does work well enough without it. It just gives it an extra boost. And if you haven't tried Huperzine, it may be worth cycling off Citicoline to test it out. It may fulfill whatever nootropic needs Citicoline does as well, depends on what the reasons are for using it. If its higher acetylcholine levels, Huperzine will do that for you as well.
grinnell27
Well-known member
chedapalooza
Legend
Maybe just some of the basics/more common ones
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
I take Ergonine daily and although the Choline dose isn't listed, I take it first thing upon waking. Bad thing to add the hup a in pre bed only?
crowbar46
Active member
No problem!
Hastur
Well-known member
I can't say for sure, not knowing the dosage. The thing is, Huperzine A can have a cumulative effect over time, so it may not cause issues immediately but perhaps a few days down the road. I can't recommend you use both, as Huperzine A is not necessary for MK-677 to work, its simply additive.